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Friday June 8, 2001

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  • Gloria Lee
    *********************** Jan s poem& picture is the attachment **************************** Even if there s one truth. You can make a hundred paintings of it.
    Message 1 of 1 , Jun 9, 2001
      Jan's poem& picture is the attachment
      Even if there's one truth. You can make a hundred paintings of it.
      Pablo Picasso
      (A comment sent by Gloria)


      Anyone trying to get to Nonduality Salon website via
      <http://www.nonduality.com>, will find that it is down for the next
      24-48 hours.

      Please use <http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada>.

      Thank you.

      Jerry Katz


      All in all
      Each man in all men
      all men in each man

      All being in each being
      Each being in all being

      All in each
      Each in all

      All distinctions are mind, by mind, in mind, of mind
      No distinctions no mind to distinguish

      --R.D. Laing (Knots)


      I have seen the heart of glaciers...
      Cold, ponderous, inexorable,
      And with the right glasses,
      Seen to ebb and flow;
      Tidelike, yearning to be close to the moon;
      Wishing to be free to play with dolphins;
      To rise in plumes of rainbow mist;
      To wet parched lips; to Love.

      I too, wish to be more fluid,
      More quickly in my natural state;
      More responsive to the playful ways of water;
      Lighter and more full of light;
      More able to meet your needs,
      Especially your need to melt.

      Love, Mark
      ps it was on the fridge because I wrote it for Mary awhile ago.

      From The Chuang Tzu
      In The World of Men

      I want to tell you something else I have learned. In all human relations, if
      the two parties are living close to each other, they may form a bond through
      personal trust. But if they are far apart, they must use words to communicate
      the loyalty, and words must be transmitted by someone. To transmit words
      that are either pleasing to both parties or infuriating to both parties is
      one of the most difficult things in the world. Where both parties are
      pleased, there must be some exaggeration of the good points and where both
      parties are angered, there must be some exaggeration of the bad points.
      Anything that smacks of exaggeration is irresponsible. Where there is
      irresponsibility, no one will trust what is said, and when that happens, the
      man who is transmitting the words will be in danger. Therefore the aphorism
      says, "Transmit the established facts; do not transmit words of
      exaggeration." If you do that, you will probably come out all right.

      Allspirit Website:
      Gill Eardley

      Manuel Hernandez sent:

      Whatever is sensorially perceived is like the wrapper of the real thing, a
      sample, a description, an advertisement, a mask, merely the seemingly real
      outward appearance of what lies behind.  Reality is therefore not the
      presence but the absence, not the positive but the negative, not the seen
      phenomena but their unseen source, not the known actual but unknown

      ........the wrapper is no less real than the thing itself. the
      outward appearance and what lies behind are not two. the seen
      phenomena and their unseen source are one.


      Jerry sent:
      From Chinmayo's Wide Open Windows List:

      And a new Satsang link: Satsang MLM on

      Many view enlightenment as the end of all life's problems, a state of
      permanent bliss and being beyond the turmoil of the mind. Is this
      true of SatangMLM's masters?

      Yakaru: Certainly not. That's the OLD idea of enlightenment.
      Professor Richard of Byron Bay has defined this concept as
      "An outdated intellectual construct of cognitive bicameral over-
      myelinated neurobiologically framed non-actual psuedo-functional
      illusoriness which is seated in the hypothalamus."

      Our NEW idea is much simpler.

      And what is that?

      Yakaru: Basically if I can get away with it then anyone can.

      lots of love

      Hi Jan,

      I guess my phrase "how do we make it 'work'?" was vague at best. sorry.
      What I meant was perhaps simultaneously a rephrasing of the subject
      line, and a call to arms around the environmental problems that beset
      us.  Greg Goode recently (in response to a challenge from Gene Poole)
      gave us a list of "dualities" to look at for a deeper understanding of
      nonduality. The one I didn't see that is bothering me recently is
      man/nature. (I see that this is similar to self/other, except that for
      many I'll be that "self/other" automatically assumes the split between
      man and nature, as we tend to ascribe "self/other" to the human inside
      one body, which one cannot readily see from a distance compared to one
      that can walk away and be seen that way. (yikes, don'tcha love the
      convoluted way things sound when one is trying to be unambiguous?)

      Anyway, the split between man and nature, which is illusory, is also
      gonna kill our great grandchildren unless we see it as the terrible
      choice we made 10,000 years ago (our aggressive style of agriculture and
      the idea that whatever we do to secure food, shelter, etc for humans is
      justified) and reverse our whole mindset about Earth and our place on
      it.  Maybe this doesn't matter to one who has realized because it's just
      a dream anyway, but hey, it's a potentially cool dream, if we can let go
      of our foolish idea of superiority and the divine right we believe we
      have to take advantage of our prefrontal cortices to other species (and
      other cultures) detriment.

      still on my environmental kick, and working to figure out how what I
      learn here can be made to solve the problem,
      ps so I didn't mean work as in career, or enterprise, but work as in
      success at altering a very fundamental assumption of duality that
      mankind has taken for granted, but which I suspect represents "the
      fall". (leaving the garden - what an ironic way to describe it.)

      Hi Mark,

      > Anyway, the split between man and nature, which is
      illusory, is also
      > gonna kill our great grandchildren unless we see it as
      the terrible

      Have you read the book 'Ishmael' by Daniel Quinn?

      It tries to put the situation from the natures point of view and is regarded
      as 'non-dual'.

      Anyway it gives the case for environmentalism by 'non interference' as well
      as being a very enjoyable and moving read.


      Gloria asked: How does this approach respond to the fact that man is already interfering
      on such a large scale? Is it saying stop interfering with nature, or don't
      interfere with whatever man is already doing?
      Yes that is the question that generally goes unanswered with regard to 'non
      interference' in general and a good example is with regard to the
      'enviroment'. The book is regarded as 'non dual' but good as it is it
      doesn't really fully address this as I recall.

      My own take on this is that division into dual/non-dual as well as
      man/nature is the essence of the problem. As if we could choose to interfere
      or not interfere? Where is the chooser? Where is the interferer? It is still
      the working of subject/object separation. 'Man' working 'as if' he was
      separate and in control, 'as if' he needed to be.

      The positive change comes out of the negative insight of non-division. The
      'world' may change when we see that it does not need to change. The whole
      thing of consumerism may slow down as the futility of trying to fill the
      bottomless pit of self interest abates. One may rejoice in 'not having'!
      just as much as having. Of course there is no guarantee of this, its the
      search for security that is part of the problem. That life has an ending is
      part of it and not something to be conquered.

      The end of self-importance, and the end of division I think clears away
      these problems as non problems. This is not an 'answer' nature doesn't seem
      to need one.


      Neo-Advaitist movement - escape from real life?

      Indeed, so simple yet so complex. What I find so encouraging about this is
      that all of us-all of us teachers and students of enlightenment-are at this
      time in history involved in a truly grand experiment. Never have all of the
      world's "growth technologies" been fully available to a single culture: we
      have access not only to all of the forms of Western psychotherapy and human
      potential techniques, we have access to virtually all of the world's great
      wisdom traditions as well. And we are all now engaged in this "simple yet
      complex" experiment in how best to balance all of these approaches,
      including the relative and absolute, and thus find the best ways to both
      awaken to our ever-present Self-awaken to the absolute-and then skillfully
      and compassionately express that ultimate Reality in the relative world,
      balancing nirvana and samsara in each and every gesture we make. We are
      involved in this grand experiment, this gesture of balance, this graceful
      acknowledgment that we are both the One and the Many in every move we make.

      excerpts sent by Jan Sultan

      Hi Jan,

      >"With the neo-Advaitist explosion that we seem
      >be in the midst of, I almost always take the opposite position.
      >insistence that only consciousness is real usually results not in
      >liberation, but rather tends to provide the easiest (and
      scariest) escape
      >from real life and the ever-challenging real
      implications of being a fully
      >human being.

      Of course there is no such 'Neo-Advaitist movement' its just an attempt by
      AC and WIE to distinguish their own methodology and promote dualism under
      the guise of 'non-dualism'.

      As if there is such a thing as 'genuine enlightenment'!! which can be bought
      by taking expensive courses and accepting someone as an 'enlightened being'.
      Self publicity abound in this 'New Age'. There is no movement in time
      towards anything and no teachers, imho anything else is a set up. The whole
      concept 'What is Enlightenment' is a joke is if there was something to be
      identified and worked towards. Whatever that is its not non-dualism.

      On my soap box,

      Love, Mark
      nonduality means "both." It's not that difficult, guys.  (now, how do we make it "work?")
      Dear Mark,

      If nonduality means "both", then
        we'll have to come up with
        a new word for nonduality --
        one that means nonduality.

      I suggest "Mork" ...



      just two lovers

      (meditation on non-dual love for mira)


      …the greatest sacrifices are the sweetest delights.”

                                                                      -Victor Hugo




      although we are agree and do not agree

      that there is nothing and there is not nothing

      that there is neither time nor space, yin nor yang

      you nor i for we are and are not one


      still, i insist that we start counting these stars

      that do and do not exist


      there is fire and there is ice

      the fire melts the ice

      the ice quenches the fire


      recognizing this we realize that we are and are not one but two


      you are i are here as am i even if we insist we are not

      this union between the fire and ice is not two but one

      this union is not higher love nor lower love

      but love itself

      which is one


      very few woman and even fewer men

      can conceive of love

      realize that love sacred and profane

      is the only true religion

      is life itself


      the lover deifying the beloved

      the beloved deifying the lover

      the golden sun shining for the silver moon

      the silver moon darkly reflecting the sun’s golden light

      together create the lightness that is nothing without the darkness

      the lightness within the mirror mirroring the mirror within the darkness


      without devotion and passion

      without great sacrifice, dark to light, light to dark

      there is only nothing, nothing is nothing without something

      there is neither sweet darkness nor bitter lightness


      i have sought you forever mirabai

      out of the many in the endless throng

      i have heard you call my name


      we are as necessary to each other

      as the sun is to the moon

      both to the infinite stars that lie beyond


      out of the starry starry night

      i come to you

      one from among many

      i am your one

      you are my one


      together we are not two but one

      just two lovers within each other

      one just one




      i come serenading  i come


      mark christopher valentine

      (june 8, 2301)


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