Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Wednesday, June 6

Expand Messages
  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    Jan Barendrecht photo and poem: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NondualitySalon/message/55907
    Message 1 of 1 , Jun 7, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      Jan Barendrecht

      photo and poem:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NondualitySalon/message/55907

      _________________________________________________________________________________

      Jan Sultan

      Enlightenment an involuntary action?

      Try to go to sleep consciously and you will become an
      insomniac, try to urinate or defecate consciously and again
      you will fail. This is because all these are involuntary
      actions. They just happen when the conditions are right.
      Perhaps even enlightenment is also an involuntary happening.
      Make the conditions right for it to occur, but get out of the
      way before it can happen. [Just like reading a magazine in
      the toilet to take your mind off the act - getting yourself
      out of the way!]

      Like walking, or driving/racing or playing sports ... If you
      do it consciously the results are mediocre. However if you
      get into the rhythm, into the 'zone', you do wonders.

      Crudely put, I know. But possibly there is something
      significant here?

      ------------------------------

      Gloria Lee

      Oh YES! YES! YES! Sports is a quite the exact metaphor too.
      If you would read Herrigel's little book on Zen in the Art of
      Archery, archery was taught as a way of turning off the mind
      in order to shoot without conscious thought interfering.
      Every creative artist learns how when he is not present, the
      poetry writes itself, the music composes itself, the painting
      paints itself.
       

      ---------------------------------
      Dan Berkow

      Yes, we do get ourselves into binds, don't we?

      When noticing that our voluntary actions arose
         involuntarily, we see there is no real meaning
         outside of social convention to the terms
         'voluntary' and 'involuntary'.

      Seeing this, enlightenment and
         ignorance arise simultaneously
         from the same non-place.

      -------------------------------------

      Just This

      "you" cannot do anything to get enlightened. It is "in the
      cards" so to speak, but perhaps not this lifetime. "you"
      cannot make it happen, give up, surrender, let go. "You"
      cannot get "yourself" out of the way though. I don'think one
      can make the conditions right for it to happen, cause we
      don't know what those conditions are. But you can prepare the
      vessel so that when conditions are right (which we have no
      say in) that shift of context from self-reference to god or
      other reference can be integrated.

      -------------------------------------------

      James Traverse

      Yes to the general theme of the thread here.

      There is a place for 'right understanding' as pointed out by
      the theme of this thread.

      While I cannot know 'Who am I?' there can be the
      understanding of what one is not, and the 'vibration' of
      'what is' can be pointed to when there is a certain precision
      in the words and their timing.

      The Truth cannot be known and yet it has a 'vibration' that
      is recognized- it is its own knowing.

      -------------------------------------------------

      Dan Berkow

      So subtle, it is beyond sight or sound.
      So loud, its roar is greater than all the oceans.
       

      _____________________________________________________________________

      Gene Poole

      Nondual Think Tank, continued...

      I did not really have in mind such a formal approach, at
      least not for the beginning of the 'project', which I shall
      call NDDB (for NonDualDataBase) for now.

      After more than two years of participation in NDS and other,
      related lists and discussions, I can make some general
      observations. It is these observations* which have prompted
      the idea of taking into account, all accessible concepts,
      terms, and definitions which apply to nonduality.

      This is for the purpose of setting up a grid, into which one
      could insert oneself, to discover where their understanding
      places them, in the extant arena of nondual concepts.

      In one sense, this proposal, if made workable through careful
      contribution and refinement, could be compared to a test
      which when taken, reveals the state of knowledge and
      proficiency of a student who is challenging an academic
      course. Often, the assumption of the student is dispelled,
      when the test scores reveal a level of knowledge which is far
      below the offerings of the course in question.

      Of course, here in NDS we are not supposing to actually
      formally test anyone, but much of the content of NDS has
      turned out to be 'challenge and defense', a process which
      continues even now. And there is nothing wrong with that.

      I propose, to test the concepts and terms themselves, thus to
      place them in an array of related concepts and terms. This is
      the 'grid' I allude to above. If any person so desires, they
      can enter the grid, armed with their own version of
      nonduality, and thus by comparison see the attached relative
      meanings (and values) to which their own 'beliefs and
      assumptions' naturally and logically relate.

      I know that this will seem like a rather dry and potentially
      boring task, at least to some. That is why I suggest that we
      simply make this option available to anyone who wishes to
      participate. The inclusion in header or text of the acronym
      "NDDB" will signify a contribution or challenge to a previous
      contribution. By careful comparison and logging, all such
      contributions (as Greg has given in his letter above) and
      challenges can eventually be placed into a relational grid of
      logical connection.

      The outcome (if it is ever deemed to be 'finished', a
      doubtful prospect!) would be, a potentially useful
      "Historical/Semantic Map/Grid" of nondual concepts and terms.

      Personally, I already have a (rather vague in certain places)
      similar grid, into which all contributors to NDS tacitly
      place themselves, with each word they say on the topic. This
      is of course, simply a mental construct, which has been
      'growing itself' for many years.

      * Now on to my observations, which have led to my NDDB
      proposal:

      Humans have the peculiar habit of literally confusing meaning
      and value. Meaning is a universe unto itself, an array of
      definitions which are strictly interpreted, and can be traced
      back to their origins, the 'seed' or 'sems' of each word, the
      root of 'semantic'. Meaning can be misunderstood. It can
      change and shift and take on new connotation, but
      essentially, it is the province of arbitration by group
      consensus. Meaning, in itself, can be decided by discussion
      and agreement. Each meaning so processed, is added to the
      huge lexicon of terms and definitions which we all use,
      albeit in either deliberate or casual/careless ways.

      Not so, the universe of value, and this is the rub, when it
      comes to navigating the universe of semantics/meaning.

      As we attempt to make our way through the complex universe of
      interrelated meaning, we are deflected in our attempt, by the
      existence of values, which have become attached to or
      imbedded to nodes of meaning. For this reason, it is
      particularly difficult to remain in the 'realm of pure
      meaning', as we grapple (or not!) with the 'value-added'
      aspect of a given meaning.

      Value, in itself, is composed of nothing but cues. What one
      does in response to these cues, is an entire topic of
      discussion in itself, but for now, suffice it to say, that
      such cues prompt either of two reactions, which are; to move
      toward, or, to move away. In our 'NDDB', this may be referred
      to as 'desire' VS 'aversion'.

      Fnord!

      If you do not understand the above cue (Fnord!), you have
      missed the experience of reading "The Illuminatus Trilogy", a
      fine series of books written by Wilson and Shae, in the late
      '70's. The "Fnord!" word was, in the reality offered in those
      books, a strong cue of 'aversion'. Interestingly, the
      populace of this literary reality had been conditioned to the
      extent, that even though "Fnord!" was plainly printed in
      popular periodicals, the word was invisible to the perception
      of the (conditioned) reader.

      The "Fnord!" aversion-cue was typically place in and around
      articles which if understood, would have led to predictable
      changes in the status-quo of the social systems which govern
      (control) the lives and options of the populace. And it was
      the secret society of the Illuminati, of course, who was
      responsible for placing the 'aversion-cues' in and around
      such information.

      We are faced with a similar situation here, in NDS. Value is
      implied in, as, and especially by the use of, any particular
      word or phrase. And the disagreements and disputes which
      arise around this event, common as it is, evoke even more
      value-cuing, designed to lead to a state of rest in a
      proffered 'value-system'. There is considerable undefined
      confusion around this phenomenon, and this confusion is
      unfortunately, 'state-of-the-art' in the larger,
      world-at-large. But it need not go unseen here in NDS, where
      'we nondualists' have the opportunity to patiently and
      skillfully illuminate both meaning and any attached value, as
      we speak and listen.

      [To Be Continued... ]

      Thanks for listening and considering, more in my next letter.

      __________________________________________________________________

      nondualing goddesses
      cee and ***mira:

      perhaps it is high time to be done
      with consorts of all kinds.
       
      ***I agree!

      for how many lifetimes have you been searching
      for the beloved?

      ***No idea... can't seem to remember...

      yearning for that perfect lover.  rejoice at finding them
      for a moment and then alas
      their body turns to rotting putrid flesh
      and where have they gone?
       
      ***The Beloved comes from nowhere, is nowhere and goes nowhere...
      doesn't matter how many lovers pass by to celebrate its longing for itself.
       
      or the boredom of day to day life makes you want
      to flee and find a new perfect lover.

      ***Ah so true!! Just wrap up the same old thing in a
      different piece of paper, and its all brand new and exciting
      again!!!

      fleshy lovers, dream lovers, where is the one who will love you perfectly?

      ***Everyone of them. They are no other than perfection itself.

      where is the one you can perfectly love?

      ***Right now?? I think in his car on his way to the post office...

      as long as you make yourself into a somebody
      you will make an other,  many others

      ***Ah YES!!! Don't you love the game? It is so amazing that this
      is possible!!! No one of us is another, yet we make ourselves
      into others.... excruciatingly wonderful play!!! I adore it,
      really!

      this is an endless round of duality and suffering
       
      ***:-) booooh.... hell is waiting for me around the corner!! Beware
      of the duality monster!!!

      be done with an individuated identity
       
      ***No... too much fun pretending!

      be done with the round of yearning for union
       
      ***No... too much fun unifying that which is not two!

      be done with the round of birth and death

      ***No... can't do it... I AM birth and death... do not stand apart from it!
      But then... I AM NOT birth and death as well.... now how am I going to be done with that?

      bright ones, eternal one, know this well
      you alone exist!

      ***YEP!!! So what have I got to fear? :-)))

    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.