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Thursday, May 3

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    GILL EARDLEY What allows love to be love? I am not being flippant here, I really want to know. It seems to me it is quite easy to talk about unconditional love
    Message 1 of 1 , May 4, 2001
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      What allows love to be love? I am not being flippant here, I really want
      to know. It seems to me it is quite easy to talk about unconditional love
      and  something entirely different to achieve it, to practice it, to *be* it.

      What *does* allow love to be love?



      Hi Terry...

      You asked some provocative questions...

      >What is humanity?

      That is the property of being human, individually and collectively.

      > What does humanity have to do with non-dualism.

      Humanity collectively subsumes humanity individually

      Humanity individually contains humanity collectively

      Individual humans have as basic default psychic configuration,
      the nondual, while collectively, the default configuration is dualistic.

      The conflict between individual default nondual ('original nature')
      and collective default (dualistic: right vs wrong, good vs bad)
      serves as a necessary and inevitable evolutionary stressor,
      which will eventually either break the system, or result in a new
      mutation. Ramana is one of the first such mutants of public note.

      Nonduality as a way or movement is gaining in popularity, for the
      same reason that shoes and dictionaries have 'caught on'; it is
      potentially a superb tool for the enhancement of survival.

      Ramana and others are attractive because they offer tools
      which may be applied for enhancement of survival. This is more
      clear, if we acknowledge that unblemished clarity of mind and
      nonattachment are useful for the alleviation of personal
      suffering, and enhancement of the collective imperative.

      >Melody sent in a
      > quote from another list criticizing non-dualists for lack of some
      > quality relating to their concept of being human.

      Yes, and well deserved. Mimickery and image-seeking, not to
      mention the thrill of close-pass to the infinite, are very attractive.

      We can see ample examples, close at hand, of the dangers
      inherent in the misuse of powerful tools. Adopting nonduality
      'way' as compensation for personal suffering, does indeed
      present the possibility of a new species of sociopath, as has
      happened via Christianity and Islam.

      >A few people
      > have raised psychological issues. What is the relationship of
      > spiritual practice and psychology, non-dualism and psychology?

      A big question as stated.

      All of those occur in individual humans, are reflected to and back from
      the collective, which results in alteration of both individual and
      collective. The pronounced tenets of those systems will to a large
      extent, determine the good or bad effects on individual and collective,
      but the inherent latent functions (side-effects) of those systems will
      eventually emerge. We can see some preliminary evidence of unwanted
      dysfunction even now, but the fine-tuning will continue for a long

      >A Ken
      > Wilber critic writes that Ramana Maharshi, put forward by Wilber

      as an
      > example of a highly evolved human being, was incapable of taking
      > of himself, and was basically disfunctional. Is this evolution?

      Yes, see above.
      Paranoia and Schizophrenia are both emergent evolutionary phenomena.
      Both reflect the radical extremes of functionality which are
      potentially available for everyone.

      The demand of the original nature to re-exert itself is undeniable;
      what venues for this to arise within, how and where and when the
      collective gives permission for this arising, is the real question.

      Formerly, tribal societies allowed and made a place for the Shaman, the
      'wounded healer', generally someone who had gone mad and returned.

      What is the difference between genius and madness?

      -  The Genius uses madness creatively

      -  The madman uses genius destructively

      > How
      > do we live our lives?

      We resist death until we die.

      >Why are there so many question?

      Because there are so many undiscovered answers.



      You are a refugee, homeless at heart though you have shelter and money.
      This is all temporary. Laughter will change to tears, tears to
      laughter. Be steady. Your journey is incomplete.



      Hi there Perhaps you would like to have a look at the synopsis of
      Godels Incompleteness Theorem at <http://www.miskatonic.org/godel.html>
      It is related to mathematics and logic but is defintely nondual. It is
      thought to be as revolutionary as Einstien theories.


      The originality in Goedel's incompleteness theorem is it's application
      to mathematical systems. Basically it is the same thing as Epimenides
      the Cretan (7th century B.C.), who declared that All Cretans are liars.
      So in a language that I find straightforward it would be something like
      a mute person suddenly uttering "Everything I say is a lie" and then
      never saying anything again.

      Is that true or false? Well, it can't be either. This kind of paradox
      arises from self-referencing systems, and it does seem quite relevant
      to nonduality, huh?




      > What is the relationship of spiritual practice and psychology, non-
      > dualism and psychology?

      Why not use some of the various thousands of 'practices' (for
      example, Nisargadatta... "spend as much time with Beingness as you
      can spare, just be") -- and find out, rather than gathering second-
      hand "information" from books, others...  Why not spend some time
      doing Zazen?

      Don't listen to a word I say (or anyone else), 'be a lamp unto
      yourself'.  Thought can be satisfied and smug, but unless this
      becomes 'direct experience' -- it's all secondhand nonsense.

      Again, I say this... even as applying to all of the above, please
      don't listen to me... follow 'your intuition' only.

      "Truth is a pathless land."  I quote "the masters" only because
      people are far more likely to pay attention to 'their words' than
      to 'mine'.


      > If i can make this better, i would, i am just not sure how to do
      > it.  I havent chosen sides, i wont choose sides, If i could

      > you all and make you forget, that  i would do. --gracie

      Again, you display far greater wisdom and insight than most of the
      other fools ('myself' included) on the list.

      Don't worry, when the browser is closed, it is forgotten
      instantaneously. If/when the NDS is accessed again, the 'situation'
      again arises along with its perceiver.

      Life is a series of discontinuous situations, given continuity by
      memory or 'obsessive thinking'. It's natural for thought to subside
      when there's no use for it... and when it subsides, 'all this' is gone
      as though it had never been.

      (hint: it never really has been -- the 'state' of no-mind is the
      'natural state' :-).



      Relationship is the *condition* that we find ourselves. Which is not
      two, yet it includes it. Beautifully I might add. :-)


      what people normally think of as love is not really love
      at all. In fact it's just the opposite. So it can never be enough,
      it's constantly self defeating.


      It's about love, it's not about winning and losing. Everyone wants to
      play a *winning* game. But that's not what it's about. It's about love,
      relationship. Not to be corny, but love is the way and love is the



      The stillness of no-thought.
      Nothing stirs.
      Past, present, future are
         shadows that have dissolved.

      If a thought arises, no-thought
         is undisturbed.

      Indeed, we are where
         attention is.

      With attention nowhere
         on nothing, this moment
         simply is as is --
         and attention focusing
         on this or that changes
         nothing, anymore than
         the arising or departing
         of a thought changes no-thought.

      There is only everywhere to
         be -- and this everywhere
         being all-that-is, allows
         this as is, to
         be perfect simply
         by being uncompared
         and incomparable.

      Yes, there is nowhere to
         get to, nothing to be gained.

      This is the moment of lying
         on the deathbed.
      This is the moment of opening
         as all.


      John Wayne's
         character in "The Shootist"
         had a simple credo:

      'I won't be disrespected,
         lied to, or laid a hand on.
      I don't do these things to
         others, and I require
         the same.'

      Nobody saw this movie,
         and noted:

      "A character in a movie
          requiring other characters
          to behave as required,
          is a wonderful thing to see.

        When others characters
          misbehave, they are
          behaving as required,

      The drama unfolds, each
          line occurring inevitably
          where it occurs.

      When the movie is over,
         where have all the characters

      When space is enfolded
         in a point of no dimensions;
         there is no one to make
         it friendly for all, safe
         for anyone, nor is
         there any animosity
         there whatsoever.

      Where's the Nondual Marshall?



      NDS and ego problems

      IMHO, however advanced you are spiritually, you have still a long way
      to go if you haven't conquered or tamed your ego.

      Another thing is compassion. If you cannot put yourself in another's
      shoes and see a fellow human being with faults you also have a long way
      to go. Ideally of course you should see 'yourself' in every human being
      you meet. For in reality [non-dual] there is only one of us!

      Also if your heart is not overflowing with love and you are easily
      irritated ... need I say more?

      I am not being preachy here, just honest. I love you all and am a fan
      of each and every one of you. I have learnt a lot from all of you on
      this list and am very grateful.

      Let the faultless cast the first barb! [For those who like to play it
      rough, nothing wrong with that as long it is understood as such ... you
      all are a bunch of idiots!] [Sorry cannot give a quick response or
      engage in a playful tit for tat as down here in Kenya the connections
      to the Internet are a nightmare! Plus who cares what you dimwits have
      to say, anyway!?]

      Be kind to yourself, [for you are me]. I am head over heels in love
      with you all. Love-Sick Earthling



      For me, to be fully 'present' to what one has said, is to be present to
      the movement of my body as it responds to "notions in thought".

      The 'disconnect' between 'feeling' and 'thought' can easily go
      unnoticed. In seeking to 'bridge' the apparent 'split' , I have found
      the body to be a much more reliable 'barometer' for observing whether
      there was indeed 'no response' or not.

      The body does not participate in the deceptions of the mind.



      first i was asleep
      then i awoke
      first i thought i was doing it
      then it was doing me

      oh my sweethearts
      if i smile you smile
      if i frown you frown
      if i dance you dance
      if i cry you cry

      i had no power to awaken
      surrender did that
      now i babble and am happy
      dry up those tears
      a feast is being served!

      hahahah and hohoho!

      peace - storm - michael



      God? I know a few hunters that are specifically looking just for you.
      Too serious you suggest? Let me ask you God, how shall you squeel when
      the people you serve come out of the desert and into the light for a
      supper that you called and promised heaven and all you have prepared
      are rice cakes?



      It is hard to explain the ocean to one who has never seen it.

      It might also be noted that a lead pipe, the densest of substances, may
      carry pure and clean water. If we use the analogy that love is water,
      and that water may be contaminated or combined with many substances
      (sewer water, salt water, milk, blood, muddy water), then the
      contaminants could all be regarded as 'conditioning.' Then, according
      to you, all the water of love provided by humans to each other is mixed
      with some contaminants, and is either unsuitable for drinking and
      washing or is only suited to a particular purpose. You grant that there
      is 'higher love,' presumably love with fewer contaminants or at least
      ones that are not poisonous. In my view, even seriously flawed
      individuals can deliver pure water, pure love, at times. How many of us
      have not received enlightened instruction which moved us deeply from
      someone we *know* is seriously flawed, a Rajneesh or a DFJ, perhaps our
      hometown preacher merely quoting some brilliant passage from the bible,
      something which washed us clean or quenched our thirst? Even drunks,
      children, homeless crazies and the like may show us pure love; and
      countless animals and plants. My dog Lou loves me unconditionally. So,
      my original point was that 'conscious' people may practice
      unconditional love; but I would be willing to extend that even to the
      unconscious, who after all are representatives of god, or the
      underlying spiritual order, the divine Ground which is composed of pure
      love. Jesus said, 'if thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full
      of light.' In order to see the divine, we must have a divine eye.
      Meister Eckhart, in a similar vein, said 'The same eye with which I
      look at God is the eye with which He looks at me.' One who loves
      unconditionally sees unconditional love all around.

      I continue on this thread because I think these ideas are important,
      that 'conditioned' love is actually 'attachment' and is bad for people.
      An example: I 'love' my child, and I want them to do well in school or
      make the football team or whatever. They do badly or quit the team, and
      I am angry. My love then is *conditioned* by how well the child does in
      achieving goals which are important to *me*. Unconditional love would
      be consoling the child and helping them set new, more realizable goals,
      without a whiff of disappointment. As a practice, unconditional love is
      the ideal, and we try to recognize our attachments, which cause pain
      and are contaminants in the stream of pure love. Thus we purify
      ourselves of negative emotions as we see the damage that they do, and
      through this *practice* of unconditional love we undergo
      transformation. This practice, carried out through time, is itself



      Hi Gracie,

      Thank you for your deep honesty here. I believe that the letting go of
      protective shells that I have done in my life has made me lighter. I
      can feel that place two finger widths to the right of the sternum,
      across from that muscle-heart. Sometimes, sorrow flows through there as
      sweet as a cool breeze on a hot day. I look at people and just marvel.
      When I do get emotional, sometimes can't tell if I'm laughing or
      crying, and it doesn't matter at all. It is hard work though, and often
      I am not sure that I'm up to it. (Been in a real funk the past month or
      two in fact. And I've watched myself in horror do things that I cannot
      understand. There can be some real fireworks when you start letting the
      repressed energy up. But, stuffing more down just makes it worse,
      dear.) Anyway, I wish you well, and think you are just grand exactly as
      you are.

      Love, Mark



      Checkin it out with you Guys/Gals:

      About conditioning, practice, and grace....

      These factors of spiritual unfoldment, which were once seen as
      significant separate conditions, now appear to be dissolving into one
      nameless reality.

      It began at the stillpoint of self, followed by "knowing" that practice
      and grace are really one "process". Then comes the realization that
      grace and conditioning are also one. Soon other factors fall into line
      and I suddenly find myself without conceptual crutches, wandering about
      freely, going nowhere. It all seems very new, a feeling of blissful
      wonder in seeming to be "someone else", just born.

      Will somebody please pinch me and see if I'm real. :-)

      swirling eddy

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