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digest of Thursday's postings

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  • Melody
    A sampling of postings from the Nonduality Salon and a few other places, as well.... for Thursday, August 5, 1999
    Message 1 of 2 , Aug 6, 1999
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      A sampling of postings from
      the Nonduality Salon and a
      few other places, as well....

      for Thursday, August 5, 1999

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      From the NDS:

      Xan: From the position of emerging out of doer identity we discover doing
      to be so much simpler, more creative and effective without an intervening
      identity, at
      least I do. I think we do not know how it would be to grow up without
      assuming identities - the "natural" way. :-)

      Dan: What would it be to grow up and never identify yourself as a name, a
      body, a memory system? To never identify with things you liked (e.g.
      beauty, pleasure, happiness, joy) and never want to separate from things
      you didn't like (e.g., ugliness, pain, disgust, unhappiness)? If this were
      the case, how would you ever identify yourself as involved in a growing
      process? How would you ever locate yourself? Insofar as we are
      identifiable beings, we can come to an ending of this identification, an
      ongoing rebirth. Yet, to the extent we are never identifiable beings, we
      were never born in the first place. Then, there is only the Unborn and
      Uncreated.
      That alone.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      From a Gathering:

      Sandeep:
      Suppose it was a butterfly dreaming away that it had become a [John Doe] in
      it's dream, a [John Doe] engaged
      in meaningful activities to avoid becoming
      emasculated, to avoid death?
      With the opening blink of the butterfly's eyes waking up, all this goes
      poooof.
      Can you at least admit the possibility<g>

      How do you [ ] anything of all "this" has an
      existential reality? Just because you wake up every morning and through the
      course of the day, run
      through various myriads of plesant and unpleasant sensations?

      And that you have been doing this for the last 50-60-70 years?

      And that there is a memory of yesterday and a hope for tomorrow?

      Well it is perfectly possible that a full lifetime (70-80 years of sensation
      experiencing) can be compressed into a sleep-dream of 4 hours.The concept of
      time is relative in the dream state and the waking state.

      So why not a butterfly sleeping say for 3 hours and dreaming a full dream in
      which 50 years of [John Doe] is played out, with
      all his issues, meaningful
      actions, hopes, desires, creatings etc etc.

      That is why those who know have talked about the veil of illusion for the
      outer, and re-focussed the disciple's attention to re-discovering, not
      whether it is a butterfly dreaming or not, whether all this is real or
      illusion or not, but to re-discover that which remains whether dreaming or
      waking.

      Now this re-discovery cannot even get started if the fascination, if the
      seeking is for satiation with the nuances of the dream, with the myriad
      aspects of the outer.

      Does it mean the outer is to be discarded, shunned?

      No, that means a reaction and any reaction positive or negative means you
      are still bound to what you are reacting to.

      No, what is to be seen is the identification of oneself with the nuances of
      the outer and in that seeing is the shedding of the identification.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      From the NDS:

      Gene Poole:
      Yes. Personally, I have experienced this 'ego loss' as a catastropic
      event, only later appreciated as a process of (hopefully) inevitable
      maturation. "Losing it" was actually 'getting it'. I can see this now, but
      at the time (1973) it seemed like the end of the world, literally.

      Dan:
      >This simultaneous realization shows that the
      > construction of "the doer" is associated with a
      > construction of a "world" in which the doing takes place,
      > and that identification with the first requires separation
      > and disidentification from the second.

      Gene: Yes. The problem associated with this process, when it occurs
      unbidden, is the lack of the second part, or the lack of the realization
      that 'I am creator'. Having it all 'go away', is a great shock; I regret
      that the 'world-dream' lacks the common information that 'I am the
      creator', to move in as the second realization, when the first collapse
      occurs. I applaud the promulgation of this simple logic of Being and
      maturation.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Gene: Yes. I am the one who rides the waves, calm or storm. I am not so
      selfish as to suffer, for the particular state I desire or have aversion
      to. Such selfishness leads to much suffering, and is not worth the cost. My
      attachments... are now kept at a distance, and are becoming only artifacts
      of historical interest, markers of a past which I am letting go of.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


      Marcia: Somehow this causes me to think that the aim of "realization" isto
      free oneself from psychological problems.

      Dan: Realization frees one from those psychological problems that result
      from taking illlusions as realities. This freedom is simply inherent in
      the dynamic between reality and illusion. Please don't take this as saying
      there is some kind of aim to realization. The "attempt to get somewhere
      other than where one is" is itself an aspect of "being caught."

      Marcia: Which bases it all
      on a "fix it framework". I think that it can be a very subtle trap in
      a way to justify something because that is the way you want it to
      be.

      Dan: There is nothing to be fixed. Seeing that is itself liberation from
      the psychological problems that result from trying to fix onself, others,
      and the world. There is nothing to justify here, no one who can be
      trapped, and no attempt to make anything be what it isn't.

      Marcia: I am not trying to be picky.
      This just haunts me. You know
      what I mean?

      Dan: If I understand you correctly, you don't want to see realization as
      an attempt to fix things. Reality itself is the ending of those
      psychological difficulties based on an unreal position. However, if we
      take this understanding to mean reality is something to pursue in order to
      gain freedom, we simply perpetuate the same kind of difficulty in a new
      form. I think this is what you're getting at, and that seems true to me.

      Marcia: I mean to have to actually occupy a material body
      and have goals which just might conflict and to make decisions
      and be productive. These things take maturity and strength of
      character.

      Dan: Perhaps there is no one occupying any material bodies. Perhaps the
      material bodies themselves are constructs from the "ground of awareness."
      Goals and decisions can take care of themselves. The illusion is that
      there is a "doer" and a "decider". What does it take to end this illusion?
      The courage
      to end the belief that there is someone who is being courageous? The
      character to end the belief that there is someone who demonstrates a
      character?

      > Dan: Realization is awareness itself as it is. It is clear how awareness
      imagined
      > itself "caught" in its projection of a body-mind, the associated
      > biopsychsocial process of "development of being," and the concomitent
      > investment in surviving, continuing, and being socially viable. It is
      > clear that the ending of this
      > connection of awareness with "any entity" is simply awareness as it is.

      Marcia: The imagining of being "caught" is identification.
      Projecting or developing being exists. It is the investment
      which causes "caughtness". Surviving, continuing, and social
      viableness seem like perfectly good things for a human "being".

      Dan: What makes the projection and developing seem to exist? Is it not
      awareness? Without the investment, what is it that survives and maintains
      continuity? If the illusion of continuity is dropped, what then is the
      human being if not the universe itself?

      Marcia: It is the investment which is the difficulty. The identification.
      I mean after all.....Eternity is in love with the products of
      time. :-)

      Dan: When eternity enters time, it is the ending of time as we have known it.
      It is a very different time now, time/eternity or eternal time.
      Timelessness in the midst of time, or time surrendered into eternity.
      The unknown in the midst of all that one had believed to be known.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

      > Gene: Yes. Personally, I have experienced this 'ego loss' as a
      > catastropic
      > >event, only later appreciated as a process of (hopefully) inevitable
      > >maturation. "Losing it" was actually 'getting it'. I can see this
      > now, but
      > >at the time (1973) it seemed like the end of the world, literally.
      >

      ******** I can relate. In fact, it was 1973 for me too. The world did
      come to an end as I knew it, the world of separate identities was no
      more,
      and there was no ever going back. I knew it was a process, but at that
      time
      I didn't know *what for*?? It was a spontaneous
      thing, I had no idea what I was getting into when I sat there one night
      and questioned
      life at a deeper level. I was just simply curious. :-) Ask and you
      shall receive - WHAM!! But I was totally lost in it, so I became a
      seeker. And I basically
      stayed that way for twenty four years until 1997, when I got the *second
      half*,
      like Gene said, the fulfillment, after the original falling away of
      separatenes. And as to why I didn't get the whole thing at first, I can
      only
      speculate and say that I wasn't ready, and looking back on it, nor could
      I have
      appreciated it. You can't really appreciate something unless
      you earn it. And if you can't appreciate it, it's useless. And no smart
      cracks
      from you wise guys about uselessness. :-) Dontcha love it?? :-)

      Judi

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      from Harsha:

      Gill had sent this poem last month and I am posting it again as it is of
      such beauty........Harsha

      I WAS READY TO TELL
      the story of my life
      but the ripple of tears
      and the agony of my heart
      wouldn't let me

      i began to stutter
      saying a word here and there
      and all along i felt
      as tender as a crystal
      ready to be shattered

      in this stormy sea
      we call life
      all the big ships
      come apart
      board by board

      how can i survive
      riding a lonely
      little boat
      with no oars
      and no arms

      my boat did finally break
      by the waves
      and i broke free
      as i tied myself
      to a single board

      though the panic is gone
      i am now offended
      why should i be so helpless
      rising with one wave
      and falling with the next

      i don't know
      if i am
      nonexistence
      while i exist
      but i know for sure
      when i am
      i am not
      but
      when i am not
      then i am

      now how can i be
      a skeptic
      about the
      resurrection and
      coming to life again

      since in this world
      i have many times
      like my own imagination
      died and
      been born again

      that is why
      after a long agonizing life
      as a hunter
      i finally let go and got
      hunted down and became free

      ~Rumi, ghazal number 1419,
      translated April 17, 1991,
      by Nader Khalili

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      from the NDS:

      Becky:

      In my past, attention arose very naturally out of where I was in my life.
      Somehow it was so organic that there really was no trying. Now, it's not
      that way. So this makes me wonder about the nature of awareness. Since
      it's always there, why should I be looking for it? But there has to be some
      sort of effort. Perhaps there is a very fine distinction between effort and
      no effort at all.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      << >Okay, let's try these to see if we can get a handle on this ego thing.

      Why? Why try to "get a handle on" it? It's the ego itself that's trying
      to understand ego. I suspect it can't be done, and furthermore, why should
      it be done? Better to focus on understanding what lies behind thought,
      what "causes" thought, rather than to try and understand the nature of
      thought itself. Thought cannot "grasp" thought, because any such grasping
      is itself more thought. It's an exercise in frustration, and personally,
      peace of mind is much better appreciated here :-)

      Tim
      >>

      It can be useful to see how the ego/mind is perpetuating itself in order to
      stop doing that. Not for the mental gratification of defining but for
      undoing.

      xan

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      from a Gathering:

      Sandeep:

      Prayer is a dialogue.
      Dialogue requires two.
      Prayer to whom?
      To a conception, to an apriori assumption?
      Of what worth will such a prayer be, if it is remain within the bounds of
      one's conditionings from which springs our conceptions, or assumptions.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      also from Sandeep:

      Look to yourself.
      Look to identify your poverty.
      Look to re-discover your richness.
      Look to discover what blocks your richness to manifest, for your mastery to
      BE.
      Look to discover how you cannot see the perfection in an imperfection, in an
      evolution, in the discarding of a cocoon for a butterfly to be the beauty it
      is.

      Look to see how the so called anguish for the "other" is game that you play,
      have played for lifetimes, to avoid the real work or confronting oneself,
      it's aloneness.
      Look to see how to avoid this intrinsic aloneness, which one senses, one
      goes forth to change the world, to better the world.

      Look to healing yourself, by discarding the masks that you have donned
      through several lifetimes, before you can even contemplate to deal with the
      other's situation.

      Look at oneself, Look at oneself, Look at oneself.

      When that pureness is discovered, in that purity, in that mileu of purity,
      much takes place, much gets accomplished, much gets done and there is no
      "doer' for this doing.
      Till that re-discovery takes place, all "doing" are games that ego plays.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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