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Wednesday, May 2

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    MICHAEL JOHNSON The seeking to be free is the beast that must be killed. When it is understand that all there is is what is as it is, freedom from suffering
    Message 1 of 1 , Apr 26 4:08 PM
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      MICHAEL JOHNSON

      The seeking to be free is the beast that must be killed. When it is
      understand that all there is is what is as it is, freedom from
      suffering drops.

      For "me" there is both liberation and contraction which means I am
      still a prisoner of my own thoughts and yet there is understanding that
      even that is absolutely appropriate for the awakening of this
      body/mind.

      __________________________________________________________________

      OMKARA

      "Feelings are here now, as they arise, like anything. There is nowhere
      else."

      Sure... this is how "everyone experiences," although many are not aware
      of it, and "attach" feelings to an identity... a tangled confusion of
      'stuff'.

      'As seen here', the basic issue seems to be 'self-image'. There's a
      crystallized idea "this is who I am," kept 'in thought' all the time
      (in the 'subconscious' maybe?) and of course, what else is the 'cause'
      or 'root factor' behind wars, arguments, reactions, hurt feelings,
      grudges, extended anger and so on.

      ------------

      Pain seems like an 'interesting' item as applied to 'realization' -- a
      specific example being the case of Nisargadatta Maharaj: The pain from
      the cancer at the end of his life seemed to act as a 'nudge' to further
      understanding regarding the body, and he stated something like this:

      "Before the illness there was the idea that reality was expressing
      through a particular form, but the pain of this illness has made clear
      that the body is completely illusory, and there is now perceived only
      the consciousness expressing through millions of forms."

      Something like that, but to read it was a surprise. All speculation,
      but it seemed like an honest 'confession' as presented, so perhaps
      there are some implications as to how 'final' the commonly assumed
      'final realization' is with the "recognized sages."

      ________________________________________________________________________________

      JB789

      Yesterday, I somehow stumbled into this question/seeing..: I've done a
      lot of ('spiritual') things.. but I have never looked into what the
      motivational first-step (the seeking) that I've been unconsciously
      practicing, is all about ?.. .. seen the idea of
      me-moving-thru-time-towards-some-destination.. destination/goal-Image
      defined by thought out of all that's been read/heard.. using desire for
      the 'some-thing-Else' to end the suffering & conflict brought by the
      desire for something-ELSE (if one is spiritual minded) or just 'wordly'
      somethingS-else. Smelled bad ! A release/relief was felt,.. I was
      'here' and there was Life.

      My insights do not seem to last,.. so I do not know if I'll be living
      it also next minute.. but there it is.

      You might have heard someone talk about the fallacy of seeking, and
      perhaps, it has become your point of view. And so, it might be good to
      look again. Are you seeking ? If so, what.. and what do you see in this
      process of seeking ? For a long time there was confusion here as to
      what 'ego' or "I" was or wasn't... eventually it was discovered as no
      more or less than 'self-image' (the plain ol' common definition).

      Alot of 'feelings' simply don't arise in the absence of a 'self image'.
      They aren't necessary -- no 'bubble' to defend or coddle, no 'set
      personality' to (consciously or unconsciously) "protect and defend."

      _________________________________________________________________________

      ANDREW MACNAB

      One could be insensitive to one's own hurt feelings, or denying them
      because they don't fit the image of the E.O. that one believes oneself
      to be. A lack of interest in tests might be a better indicator. Who is
      looking for confirmation? "Don't be deluded, don't be deluded..." the
      old zen monk kept repeating to himself.

      ...

      The presence or absence of feelings of fear or hurt or anger or joy or
      whatever in no way indicates the presence or absence of one who feels.
      The idea that if there is a feeling there must be one who feels is a
      basic form of the false inference that is at the bottom of all
      dualistic thinking.

      ...

      Just as the arising of thoughts doesn't necessarily mean there is an
      identity that thinks them, so with feelings; there's no essential
      difference. 'Your' feelings are not yours, any more than 'your'
      thoughts are. Now they are here... now they are not here. They have no
      owner.

      ____________________________________________________________________

      DAN BERKOW RESPONDS TO MICHAEL JOHNSON

      >What message do you give when
      >speaking about nonduality in relation
      >to lives of persons and in relation to
      >therapy?

      In relation to lives of persons, it is
      spontaneous awareness in which
      the momentary nature of perception
      is clear. That the perceiver arises
      with and as perception. That life
      arises as a totality-unsplit-whole.

      In relation to therapy, I speak to
      the nonseparation of therapist
      and client, the nondoing of
      therapy -- there is no one there
      to do anything to or to do something
      to or for someone. I speak to
      the use of intuition in therapy
      and "opening" of intuition that
      can be facilitated in/through
      therapy.


      >This seems to me to be an area where
      >nonduality concepts could really help
      >people, maybe not awaken, but live more
      >peaceful lives, and who knows what might
      >happen next?

      Yes. Acceptance is involved in many
      psychological problems -- self-rejection,
      anxiety about anticipated outcomes,
      rigidly closing to experiential learning
      that was painful or hurtful ...

      Awakening can not be made to happen
      or forced. Therapy isn't to make something
      happen for someone, it is to address them
      "where they're at", with the world-view
      and problems in living they perceive and
      experience themselves to be dealing with.
      Therapy assists the unfolding of life
      as learning/opening, isn't to teach
      truisms such as the nature of awakening,
      etc., in my opinion.

      _________________________________________________________________________

      WHITE WOLFE

      dear members....white wolfe will be retreating into the shadows again
      for a while and merely enjoy the dance of words and ideas here from a
      distance....from the time i was a boy (about 5) until about the time i
      became a man (about 30), i wrote poetry about the relationship between
      "nothingness and love and peace and new beginnings"....at that point in
      time i stopped writing because i felt i had run out of new things to
      say to myself ...about a year ago i found that at mid-life (45) i had
      more to say.....now, once again i find i have nothing more to say about
      nothing other than that, for me, conceptual non-duality must be
      grounded in non-dual love, that is it must be a true marriage between
      transient love and higher love....the poem that follows celebrates the
      awakening, the enlightenment, the stillness, the silence that such a
      marriage and such love is bringing into my life....^^~~~~

      (editor's note: the following is a fragment of a long poem)

      A May Day (the circle is complete non-sense) Epithalamion

      (to Mira)

      Come, join the beloved’s poet….
      the circle complete is the complete circle
      so join the circle, dance, laugh and sing

      the way know,
      the circle complete,
      know the way,

      the beloved is the way,
      the circle complete,
      the way is the beloved

      you are the beloved’s lover,
      beloved,
      the beloved’s lover are you

      _________________________________________________________________________

      SARLO AND HARSHA

      SARLO:
      "I may not know who i am but i can be sure of one thing, THAT I AM, so
      i just have to keep asking who i am (or where or why or wha for that
      matter)." The difficulty is that i am not sure and cannot be sure that
      i indeed am. My one sure point of reference is that i do not know. This
      "sure point of reference" may seem pretty insecure but what's wrong
      with it? I am bolstered in this safe port in the ontological storm by
      seeing everywhere people claiming to know, their knowing apparently
      being very attractive to seekers mired in the metaphysical swamps, who
      want some assurance about something, excuse the mixed metaphors. Their
      knowing could well be the truth, or at least their truth, so great!,
      but oftentimes it's not. Looked at from a different point of view, not
      knowing can be quite positive. It is wonder, awe, mystery. Not knowing
      is no impediment to acting decisively when that is needed. And the
      beauty: not knowing is easy and fun and you can do it in your spare
      time at home.

      _________________________________________________


      HARSHA:
      Beautiful, Sarlo! Perhaps it is this fog of "unknowing" that one must
      intuit clearly and hold onto. It can bring the existential sorrow and
      universal tears to some. It can bring one to his/her knees as the
      ontological storms appear to rage on all sides. One has to learn to
      live with it, I believe, on some paths at least. Gradually and slowly
      and carefully and mindfully one travels this road which leads nowhere
      really, because where can any road go. Just to another destination. And
      then what? Where does one go then? But perhaps this metaphysical
      loneliness when carried to the extreme allows the surrender to take
      place. A weary and a tired traveler is ultimately left without a
      choice. Perhaps it is the preface to recognizing Grace and that Supreme
      Aloneness that is Whole and One, and THAT I AM.

      _______________________________________________________________________

      JAN BARENDRECHT

      Words are crystallized thoughts and so is the moon. Not two but one :)
      But for some creatures, words are pictures, sounds or smells... A
      matter of perspective - the human perspective is but one out of an
      infinity.


      ...

      From experience ;) I know this: suffering could be called the mental
      frenzy "accompanying" pain. When that is "history", pain is felt "as
      is", without any thoughts about it. That still doesn't make it
      pleasant. But the "root" is taken out of it - one couldn't even
      complain, irrespective the intensity of pain. And gradually, that
      becomes "history" too - pain as if drowning.. Drowning in " ".

      ...

      I'm not surprised at all - it is possible to be functioning optimally
      as a householder, endowed with full self-knowledge. What then
      "separates", is the functioning "human interface" although that
      functioning and the veiling properties are fully known. That veil will
      dissolve simultaneously with the body.

      _______________________________________________________________________

      ED ARRONS



      "At the heart of each of us, whatever our imperfections, there exists a
      silent pulse of perfect rhythm, a complex of wave forms and resonances,

      which is absolutely individual and unique, and yet which connects us to
      everything in the universe. The act of getting in touch with this pulse
      can transform our personal experience and in some way alter the world
      around us."

      -- George Leonard, The Silent Pulse, p. xii

      I like the theme of this quote, but have a different understanding of
      the nature of the "silent pulse" and where the "uniqueness" lies.

      I see the "pulse" as being a "spark" of Pure Awareness from the "Fire"
      that is both the One Self and the body/mind Creator/Connector. (Love)

      I see the uniqueness arising from one's particular conditioning and
      from the particular way by which the conditioning may be undone
      -through conscious practice or by the non-conscious opening to grace.

      The unique practice or openness to grace aligns the same Realization
      "mechanism" which converts the conditioned body/mind "me" to the
      Radiant Self.

      _____________________________________________________________________

      Hello,

      I've had requests from people in San Diego and Laguna Beach areas of
      California, who want to meet other nondual types, or might be
      interested in satsang. Let me know if you live in these areas and want
      to possibly meet someone there or if you know about satsang offered. If
      you are in these areas and have contacted me, then you would already be
      on file and may have heard from me in regard to these requests.

      Jerry http://www.nonduality.com

      ------------

      There is a new list called eXXo, moderated by Lobster, Mystress
      Angelique, Bernie and myself. This is where people's nonduality meets
      lobster sufism meets kinky sexuality-cum-Kundalini meets Godzilla.
      Lobster owns this list and he is already talking about unsubbing
      himself! Germaine, the fifth Nova Scotian, is on the list, and others.
      I feel it is a new kind of list challenge. Be there or be queer!

      http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/eXXo
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