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Friday April 20, 2001

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  • Gloria Lee
    ... from an interview with Martin Prechtel in the April 2001 issue of The Sun magazine: When I was a child, I spoke a Pueblo language called Keres which
    Message 1 of 1 , Apr 21, 2001
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      from an interview with Martin Prechtel in the April 2001 issue
      of "The Sun" magazine:

      When I was a child, I spoke a Pueblo language called Keres which
      doesn't have the verb "to be". It was basically a language of
      adjectives. One of the secrets of my ability to survive and thrive in
      Santiago Atitlan was that the Tzuttujil language, too has no verb "to
      be". Tzutujil is a language of carrying and belonging, not a language
      of being. Without "to be", there's no sense that something is
      absolutely this or that. If two people argue, they are said to
      be "split", like firewood, but both sides are still of the same
      substance. Some of the rights and wrongs that nations have fought and
      died to defend or obtain are not relevant concepts to  traditional
      Tzutujil. This isn't because the Tzutujil are somehow too primitive
      to understand right and wrong, but because their lives aren't based
      on absolute states or permanence. Mayans believe nothing will last on
      its own. That's why their lives are oriented toward maintenance
      rather than creation.

      "Belonging to" is as close to "being" as the Tzutujil language gets.
      One cannot say, "She is a mother," for instance. In Tzutujil, you can
      only call someone a mother by saying whose mother she is, whom she
      belongs to. Likewise, one cannot say, "He is a shaman. "One says
      instead, "The way of tracking belongs to him".
      In a culture with the verb "to be" one is always concerned with
      identity. To determine who you are, you must also determine who you
      are not. In a culture based on belonging, however, you must bond with
      others. You are defined by where you stand and whom you stand with.
      The verb "to be" also reduces a language, taking away its adornment
      and beauty. But the language becomes more efficient. The verb "to be"
      allows you to build things.
      Rather than build things the Mayans cultivate a climate that allows
      for the possibility of their appearance, as for a fruit or a vine.
      They take care of things.


      All are blessed
      justthis



       
      > "As seen here" life consists 'normally' of desires and their satisfaction.
      >
      That makes up a large portion of existence (some might say all of it, I
      >
      don't know).
      >
      > Eventually it becomes clear that the 'root'
      desire... the one 'causing' all
      > the others or from which the others
      spring, is this:
      >
      > "The desire to
      be."

      <snip>

      Concerning the concept "to be", look here, for practical advice, by
      which to abolish this 'root desire':

      <http://www.generalsemantics.org/Services/Articles/SPEAK_E.HTM>

      Upon close investigation, it can be seen that Ramana et al are
      'native E' speakers'; and that the ease with which they are able to
      parse the language of any questioner, represents how closely such
      _speakers_ have moved into association with and as self.

      Repetetive Languaging injury (RLI) may be healed; the method of
      healing is to prevent the utterance of and eventually the arising of
      the thought composed of, invalid (nonfactual) language. This method
      works, regardless of pre-existing conditions.

      A more accurate spin on the hackneyed "The one who speaks does not
      know", is to look at it this way; the one who is speaking is the
      designated speaker. The one who knows, cannot speak, but depends upon
      the designated speaker for oral transmission of what is known.

      If the one who speaks is constrained to the use of language which
      itself is constrained to a maximum of 20% of content of fact (which
      fairly represents the common use of English, IMO), the speaker itself
      must then interpolate* (an important word/concept) to a degree of
      80%, in order to be understood by the listener. (IE, the speaker
      speaks confusion to the confusion of the listener)

      Bottom line: You are (yet another) victim of RLI!

      Maybe I should start an RLI support group. Or, maybe NDS is already that...


      Plane speaking,

      ==Gene Poole==


      *Interpolate \In*ter"po*late\, v. t. [imp. & p. p.
          {Interpolated}; p. pr. & vb. n. {Interpolating}.] [L.
          interpolatus, p. p. of interpolare to form anew, to
          interpolate, fr. interpolus, interpolis, falsified, vamped
          up, polished up; inter between + polire to polish. See
          {Polish}, v. t.]
          1. To renew; to carry on with intermission. [Obs.]

                   Motion . . . partly continued and unintermitted, . .
                   . partly interpolated and interrupted. --Sir M.
                                                         Hale.

          2. To alter or corrupt by the insertion of new or foreign
             matter; especially, to change, as a book or text, by the
             insertion of matter that is new, or foreign to the purpose
             of the author.


       
      >** I'm not sure why you make note of ego being
      involved in the
      >writing. I have never read anything posted here where
      there was no ego involved. And that's a lot of posting.
      >
      >All are
      blessed
      >justthis

      One might even take the question
          you raise a bit further, justthis:

      Where is any ego whatsoever in a bunch of
          letters appearing on a screen?

      Until the letters are interpreted
          by a reader in terms of
          "is there or isn't there 'ego'
           involved here, how much, where?"
           no ego is involved ...

      The same is true of the universe.
          There is no ego involved until
          it is interpreted that way ...
          for what may seem to the
          interpreting mind to be good
          reasons or good intentions ...

      Dan
       

      ha ha good one dan. I mean it's no true, but funny none the less.
      If a man is alone in the woods and he says something, and there is no woman there to hear him, is he still wrong?

      All are blessed
      justthis


       
      Hi Dan,

      you said: "Zen:  Go to the end of a 10,000 ft.pole, and then jump ..."

      Whew! I did this one.  (of course being afraid of death, I chose the end near the ground, so when I jumped, not a whole lot happened.)

      Love, Mark
       
      ~~~~~~~
       
      Hi Mark --

      Nothing happened.

      That's why it's "whole"
         without being "a whole lot" ...

      What happens on the other end?

      -- Love, Dan


       
      Hi dan,
      what happens on the other  end is  complete serenity, a void, a
      vacuum, an exquisite nothingness that is so completely beautiful
      nothing here can compare to it.  It is all sensation, being,
      conciousness.  There is a  sense of knowing there that can not be touched upon here, it is what is not.
      Gracie
      ~~~~~~
       

      Hi Gracie --

      Enjoying your
         description...

      Wondering, if it's not here,
         then how can you be
         speaking of it?  Or,
         are you speaking
         of a memory?

      Dan
      ~~~~~~
       
      Hi Gracie and Dan,
      It is not here (as Gracie and I are long time acquaintances) nice to see you here my friend, it is another sphere that is void of
      human/inhuman interference. It is a place before/after birth/death. A real place of nonreality. It is the collective consciousness of all unconsciousness.A selective few remember and accept that they were brought back from the brink of this unreality to share with those who will listen or not... the knowing is the acceptance of not knowing nor needing to know.

      Missy
       
      ~~~~
       
      Hi Missy --

      You left out here/not here.
      Oh well...

      And as it's here/not here, it's not
         in another sphere ...

      It's just:  this (sp)here/ not this (sp)here

      Quite simple then --
         here, after all ...  ;-)

      Love,
      Dan
       
      ~~~~~~
       
       Dear dan,
      I stand corrected and gratefully so...I am a novice and dont have the lingo down yet... in truth I really only understand about 25% of what I read here... perhaps not that much... just learning...

      Missy
      ~~~~~~~~
       
      Hi all ,
      I am astounded and humbled by the response to the words i have left here.  I speak only of where i have been, what i saw, what i felt. 
      It is what it is, what it was, and what it will be when i am again
      allowed entrance this( for lack of a better word) place.
      gracie
       
      ~~~~~~~~
      Hi Doc,
      i believe that what is next does not give choice to us, we neither
      wait nor move towards it.  when  it is determined that it is time to
      be there we are neither asked to  come nor is our presence demanded. 
      There is no choice, no waiting , no moving towards what we cant
      change, control, or be.  when we arrive there we are no longer
      ourselves, but rather we are what is and what is not.
       gracie
       
      ~~~~~
       
      wisdom is knowing that  you know nothing, accepting that you control nothing, reveling in the fact that you are nothing and in these you ARE.
      gracie
      ~~~~~~~
       
      "The light of absolute clarity is flooding all around"
      -- Nisargadatta

      Such fools as we are, thinking something can be communicated on these
      lists, when there is only Understanding.  Movement toward or away is
      apparent only.  Everpresent is Understanding, "prior to" all else.

      To seek is to suffer, whether it be 'spiritual seeking' or 'worldly
      seeking' (there is no difference).

      Love,

      Tim
      ~~~~~~
       
      Just so you know, yes the trip is indescribably  painful. So much so that  you can not  even muster fear. then in  less time than the blink of an eye, it is all gone. there is no darkness so black, no
      silence so complete.  It is devoid of fear, of pain, of pleasure,
      then  it comes and you feel it waiting with you.  If you ask it will
      answer, but in much the same way as i find you guys  speaking here. 
      it will not tell you specifics,  but it is reassuring and gentle and 
      had i been allowed a choice i would have stayed. i was not asked, i was told, i was  sent back until it decides i should return, and i accept that i  have no control  nor any choice and we each have things here we are to do. when i have completed all of them then i can go, not until.  know this, the pain is here and when we are  removed from this place, we leave pain behind, we dont feel  things  the way we feel them here.  It is very  diferent, but nice.  at least it was all of this for me.
      Gracie


           
      Re: more thought, more work, responsibility and less words:

      Thanks for your ratification, Gene. 

      Mostly the response was that all words are ultimately chatter including the words of the Buddha, Jesus, and Lao Tsu, and that sooner or later when the mind tires of mindless chatter it returns to the center, stillness, and silence.

      This certainly makes it pretty easy in the responsibility department, not to mention any demand for effort or awareness  on our parts. 

      Frankly, with no sense of judgment, I just find this ideology all too boring and as I said, NDS becomes a loss of opportunity rather than a forum for genuine guidance and healing.  If we can't distinguish between the Buddha's words, and mindless word-games "because all is nothing"; between great humanitarians and spiritual visionaries, and the Timothy McVeigh's of the world because "Who is to say" than I fear that pop psychology and relativisim are running the show--NOT anything related to spiritual vision or nondual awareness. 

      And if, in fact, it is true that somehow nondual awareness makes no distinction between selfless healers, and serial killers  (for example) because All is One--then enlightenment needs a little "enlightening."

      And dear friends out there in NDS land who are tempted to write back and ask me who is writing this, who sees a difference between those who destroy and those who heal, who would be the one imagining there is a need for responsibility, and that what is boring to one person is really enlightening to another, etc.etc.etc.  please spare me!

      Susan Dane

       
      The Duality of Non-Duality
      [Holistic Spirituality]

      I think on this list we should be brave and not just follow blindly what Ramana or anybody else said. We should explore new ideas that address the philosophical weaknesses of Buddhism, Advaita, etc. Our [much maligned] minds can tap the cosmic mind for insights.

      These thoughts just came to me.

      Quantum physics states that light is simultaneously and paradoxically both wave and particle. So why cannot Reality be both non-dual and dual simultaneously and paradoxically?

      If you have not mastered or tamed all of these [body, mind, and soul] you are not fully realized or enlightened. This includes the interaction with 'others', with environment, etc. Spirituality does not take place in a vacuum. The body is affected, example: kundalini. The mind/ego/personality
      also undergoes a major change.Considering the body/mind as illusion is the highest form of escapism!

      There are no illusions. All that there is, is God, even the images or thoughts deep within a dream within a dream. All that you can imagine and that cannot be imagined is God, the Supreme Being. Every thought of yours, no matter how foolish or trite is also emanating from God [& existing
      within God].Creation is just God changing [developing, emerging, manifesting, transforming, converting, metamorphosing, mutating, transmogrifying, transmuting, etc.] himself/herself.

      Non-duality is the flip side of duality. It is all a matter of
      point/angle/depth of view. God is having a lot of fun in this continuous process of recreating himself. This process is unfolding without even God knowing where it is headed. Knowing everything before hand would not be any  fun would it? All experiences are experienced by God. Sorrow, anger, happiness, etc. God is also everyone, saint, sinner, etc. etc. However, we, splintered Consciousnesses with our own personalities are influencing and taking part in this unfolding.

      Don't get caught up in the duality of it. If overwhelmed dive deep within yourself and let the non-duality there refresh you and give you strength to carry on this ultimate gladiator sport that we seem to have volunteered for!

      Enlightenment cannot be the ultimate purpose of life. Heaven, hell, reincarnation and karma do not make any sense. Non-duality makes all these redundant. Beings who have got tired of 'the game' get a whiff of non-duality to revive their interest in continue playing or play-acting.

      As Krishnamurti used to say, "Don't believe anything. Find your own truth".

      These thoughts are not mine. They are ours. Criticize/ridicule all you want or can.

      ________________________________
      Love makes the heart laugh and dance.
      I wish you Love.
      CyberDervish
      ``````````````````````````````````````````````


       
      ** i don't know a damn thing about quantum physics but Reality is quite obviously both dual and nondual. Call it enlightened duality.

      All are blessed
      justthis
       

      :

          Hi folks,

              One cannot 'know' Truth because it is not static.

              There is value in all traditions (they each became a tradition
      for a reason) but ultimately all traditions are stale because they are the past (the known).

              Innocence is 'not knowing'- this is the freedom of 'being'.

              Love,
              James  


       

      It seems like one of the last conditionings to go is the
      idea: "everything has to make sense." :-)

      Cheers,

      Tim
       


       
      Hi Tim --

      Yes.

      No need to make sense of
         that which doesn't need sense to
         be made sense of  ...

      Joshu answered a question
         about Buddha-nature with
         "the pine tree in the garden"
         and also noted "what I'm
         saying is very deep, although
         most will take it at the surface"...

      Love,
      Dan


       
      >Can someone please explain to this
      >computer illiterate what the word
      >"default" means when used
      in non dual lingo.
      >
      >Thanks
      >Ron


      "If this list sucks, it ain't default of the moderator"

      "Why de quake, is default"

      "Put de money in default"

      "Default precedes efault, but follows Focault"

      Excellent question!

      Default: The natural or 'fallback' position of an element within a
      larger dynamic system. Default is usually considered the 'position of
      rest', or the position to which a moveable element will return after
      contributed energy has been depleted.

      In nondual lingo, 'default' usually refers to the natural (often
      called 'prior') condition of wholeness, which is seen to be lost or
      overlayered by subsequent conditioning, derived from experience and
      stored in memory.

      One is advised to 'look within to see what is seeing', thus to be
      prompted to realize the perfect and unblemished (innocent) nature of
      self. Conditioning, as it is borne by the experiencer, distorts only
      the most superficial layer of vision and thus understanding.

      The challenge is to recognize that the default is 'rest' (originating
      nothing, or 'doing nothing'), while making nothing of it.

      Perfect repose (also called 'abiding') allows the Vast Living
      Universe to present itself in the space which is the natural
      emptiness of awareness; the motions it describes, in unbounded space,
      is the expression of the natural language of existence. The human
      'default state' allows native understanding of this natural
      expression, which we call 'reality'.

      ==Gene Poole==


      Joyce Short wrote:

      <snip>
      >
      >
      The fire is finally freed when no more fuel is added on to it.


      Yes! Not extinguished, freed.

      andrew
       

      However ya wanna put it... this is how I might:

      "When the flame is gone, and the smoke... only the sky remains."

      Namaste,

      Tim



       


           
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