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Wednesday, April 18

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    JB789 My question is, is there a consciousness which is not conditioned and independent of conditions ? ... What do you say/see ? TIM GERCHMEZ Yes. Consider it
    Message 1 of 1 , Apr 20, 2001

      My question is, is there a consciousness which is not
      conditioned and independent of conditions ? ... What do you
      say/see ?


      Yes. Consider it the 'feel of Beingness' or the feeling as if,
      "I AM" (without giving importance to 'who that is'). This
      humming of Beingness or 'sense of consciousness' is 'prior to'
      the innumerable forms appearing.

      There is multiplicity, there is duality (two) which is the
      Beingness or I AM, and there is nonduality. But all of these
      divisions are conceptual, pointers only.


      There is a perspective which also is a non-perspective, where the
      question is moot.
      A matter of "experience" or as some could say "non-experience".


      This is a classic question between Buddhism and Advaita.

      *Many* Buddhist tenet systems, but *not all*, say NO to your

      Advaita Vedanta says YES, and characterizes consciousness as
      "The I-Principle," "the Unseen Seer," "That which appearances
      appear to," and many many other things.

      It can get very intellectual, but on the other hand, you can go
      with that which draws you....



      "Which method worked for you?"

      Not a method but the proverbial visit to lord Yama - that worked
      for Nachiketas and Ramana too, to mention just two of the
      "famous characters". And what about the Buddha, who must have
      come quite close with the extreme asceticism... on this list,
      not to forget Timji who also had some encounters... Yama is the
      teacher par excellence...


      "Which method worked for you?"

      Coming to grips with the fact that my "method" was not working!


      yeah aint it the truth. This is "Burger King" spirituality
      happening today. "Have it your way". Follow "your" heart, "your"
      bliss, don't listen to anyone else, follow your own path, your own
      method. Yeah, "Have it your way". And then if you're lucky, and i do
      mean lucky, you get to the point where you see that "your way"
      doesn't work anymore. Doing it "my way" is the height of ego
      glorification. That is what turns so many people off to gurus, cause
      the guru says do it his/her way not your way. (that is if they are a
      Real guru, not one of these wanker satsang teachers that are
      proliferating like rabbitts in the springtime) But ego says no no no
      i need to do it "my way".



      Let me ask you then, why two words (concepts) for the same
      thing? Like nonduality and no-mind. Surely these 'masters' are
      idiots as certainly, if there were both looking at the same
      thing they would have come up with the same word...

      or.. has all this religious bullshit warring gone to our heads
      to the point that we can not see that the apples are still
      apples and mangos don't grow in Canada?

      Peace or at least 'global peace' is a facist idea under any
      banner and a foolish idea as 'clearly' each and every one knows
      the simple law of this and that to each other on a spiritual
      (subtle realm) and physcial planes.

      I fail to see how a few so-called 'good men (and women)' that
      are so disconnected and isololated from the reality of the
      'existing conditions of callapse' while living in luxury, can
      even make any informed desicions.

      Perhaps then 'peace', or contentment with a sense of belonging,
      is a 'community organized event' and not a 'global summit'.

      Now, what do we want?



      Is not the Self powerful?

      If one is the Self, which is non other than the supreme being.
      Why cannot ONE just brush aside the body/mind illusion?

      If we are the Self than what need is there to do anything,
      anything at all?

      It is only the self, the body/mind illusion that has the
      problems. But if the self itself is an illusion and the problems
      are illusions too. The self, the body/mind is an illusion to

      If the Self has become mired in this body/mind illusion and
      thinks that it is the self, then it is not powerful, is it?

      The Self has no problems, the self does not exist ... so what is
      the point of it all?

      I know. I know. Just find out 'who am I'. All the questions will
      die a natural death.:-)

      Again what is required is blind faith. All the superstitions and
      religions in the world too require blind faith. So which path to
      follow? Should we rely on our minds? Should we rely on our
      hearts? Should we rely on our intuitions? Surely all these are
      the enemy? All Illusions?

      Don't get me wrong! All these questions are being asked by my
      mind. Inside, somewhere I have no questions. I feel I am being
      guided in the right direction. As for my heart, it is laughing
      most of the times [though I guess that too is an illusion.]



      Dear lists, Hereby I forward you an article written by Vartman
      (some of you may know....). He addresses an issue that I myself
      have been confronted with within the last year and a half or so.
      The issue of 'walking beside the razors edge', instead of
      walking the middle way, jumping from the concept of 'self
      assertion' into the concept of 'self denial'. I may (or may not)
      relate some of my more personal experiences later, but I thought
      I'd send this article, as it directly jumps into open inquiry of
      our concepts. It also addresses the issue of intimate
      relationships and sexuality. Vartman and Susanna are two
      beautiful people who devoted their lives to the continuous
      discovery and sharing of truth, having found the one beloved in
      each other. Mira


      ---------- When I started to hold Satsang 3 years ago, I would
      often talk about the importance of walking the middle-path or
      razors edge between self-doubt and denial.

      It appeared at that time, that 98% of spiritual seekers were
      trapped in the dilemma of doubting that they were already

      Even in this relatively short time many seekers have turned into
      founders or possibly many have just jumped to the other side of
      the razors edge from self-doubt to denial.

      Over the last year or so there has been a huge proliferation of
      satsang teachers pointing to the simple fact that we are already
      perfect, pure and whole. It is totally true, but the mind is a
      tricky beast, and it can use almost any truth for its own
      benefit. The challenge is that generally the mind is not keen on
      making effort when it thinks it can get away with comfort and
      even less enthusiastic to be shown areas that need more
      investigation and not entirely illuminated.

      It appears that all of us suffer this habit from time to time.
      Its nothing personal, it is just the way the mind operates, and
      is not a problem unless we are attached to our level of
      spiritual attainment more than we are open to honest and naked
      spiritual existence.

      As the spiritual community grows, the spiritually transmitted
      disease, of denial seems to be turning into somewhat of an

      At some level it hurts less to be thinking that you have got it
      together, than being plagued by the mind stuck in self-doubt. As
      H.W.L. Poonja once answered, when someone asked him: Why do so
      many of your devotees think that they are enlightened? His
      answer was: Better than thinking that they are unenlightened! So
      why rock the boat? Because life, if not death, will probably
      test the depth of our ability to be ok with what is, at a pretty
      extreme level.

      The first step out of this trap is the willingness to truly
      inquire and see where we may be constricting our inherent

      The good news is that there is a really accurate and tangible
      depth meter to give us a realistic measure of how deeply we are
      embodying our realization, illustrating where the truth may only
      be at a mental level.

      The Tibetans are really clear on the point of not resting in the
      bardo of I have seen that I am already perfectly free
      irrespective of anything I do. What so often seems to happen is
      that it is taken for granted that I can always count on
      perfection being here, so we believe that we can attend to it
      later. In Dzogchen the 3 aspects of realization are listed as:
      view, meditation, action. Correct seeing of the Truth,
      meditation/practice to get used to the correct view, and then
      spontaneous action, always grounded in love (regardless what it
      looks like), is a confirmation of the depth of our living

      So the practical test often looks like this; a predominantly
      masculine person in his spiritual path primarily feels at home
      in the emptiness/stillness of consciousness. Through meditation
      (or some other practice that allows him to become grounded and
      familiar with this fact of who he is), he can fully participate
      in the ever-changing flow of life. As he deepens, fewer things
      in life can make him fixate on experiences (in mistaking the
      promise that they would be able to give him more freedom than is
      inherently already here), or can overwhelm him into retreating
      from life.

      In a predominantly feminine person, her true spiritual life
      connects her more and more deeply with the fact that she is
      inherently Love. And through her practice, her conditioning is
      less and less able to limit the natural radiance of Love.

      Both the masculine and feminine person can deepen without being
      in intimate relationship, because their primary potential to
      live totally open is always in the fullness of the moment. The
      masculine is at home in the peace of nothingness, but is also
      totally attracted to the feminine energy, perhaps in nature,
      art, and especially in women. The feminine person is home in
      love, but is also attracted to feeling the stillness of divinity
      manifest in front of her in a man that seems totally trustable,
      dependable, and uncollapsible in his ability to be directed and
      strong in the midst of the flow of life.

      The interesting test is when these two people meet and become
      intimately involved.

      I would love a dakini for every time that I hear someone gasp;
      "I am so enlightened until I get into relationship.

      Intimate relationship tests the level of our practice to an
      extreme. As the honeymoon period wears off and all the latent
      conditioning and childhood neediness arises, it becomes an acid
      test of the mans ability to truly embody freedom. Particularly
      when the woman is expressing her stronger emotional aspects of
      love. Is he grounded and so clear that nothing finally matters,
      so that he can play fully in life and be truly loving in their
      life together? Conversely the test for the woman is to surrender
      her strength of independence (as opposed to codependent
      weakness) and fully living as her deepest natural expression of

      Its a tall order indeed but what else would we want to do with
      our lives, when we have seen who we truly are?

      This test works for virtually all people but not all. I have met
      a very rare minority of people that obviously have no karmic
      desire to be in relationship. For example, one of my teachers in
      India, Dolano, never really had any interest in sex or
      relationship, and there were no signs of strong repulsion to it
      either. So for the modern celibates, this is not really
      appropriate. Why I mention this to highlight the difference
      between naturally being uninterested, and convincing ourselves
      that we are uninterested as a defense against life which often
      equates to being constantly wounded by love.

      Four months ago I asked via our website if anyone could
      recommend people that were "tangibly" embodying their
      realization in daily life. Since then, Susanna and I have hung
      out with, spoken with, and listened to more than a dozen of the
      most notable western teachers that we could find alive at this

      By their own admission, virtually all the teachers that we met,
      stated that remaining fully open in intimate relationship
      without denial, is an extremely challenging test.

      It is an area that many of us would prefer to leave out of
      spirituality (as many religions have tried), as it seems to
      bring out the best and the worst of our conditioning, leaving us
      feeling schizophrenic in the tug-o-war between our spiritual
      logic and our rapidly defending/denying/closing emotions, body
      and mind.

      For some, an understanding of the absolute truth is enough, but
      in my experience, spirituality is only complete when it covers
      and enlightens EVERY aspect of life, without leaving out parts
      that seem unspiritual.

      Someone that has a profound understanding of the use of intimate
      relationships and sexuality for down to earth spiritual growth
      is David Deida. Refreshingly, David lives this path with
      tangible evidence as displayed in his life. He has deeply
      researched spiritual traditions, delivering the essential truth
      in a radically practical spiritual path.

      We are deeply touched and inspired by the vision of a fully
      sexual spiritual culture starting now so we have decided to work
      closely with Dav id to serve who ever feels the pull to live
      authentically, vulnerably and wildly open to God in every moment
      of life.

      In freedom and love, Vartman and Susanna.



      Endeavor to think no ill of others,
      and you will be challenged within the hour.
      Endeavor to understand the Truth,
      and you will know confusion within the day.
      Endeavor to overcome fear,
      and it will stalk you, unrelenting, in the guise of habit.
      Endeavor to act with Compassion,
      and the world will smile in anticipation.



      To have unconditional love is to *be* unconditional love.
      To lose one's way is to find it (congratulations! <smile>).
      The fear that you have become enmired is the only enmirement.
      Unconditional love is formless but can 'appear' as forms.
      Love is out of your grasp.. it is exactly where 'you' aren't.
      *To be* (as a separation) is to be in pain.

      To search for meaning is to miss out on the meaning, joy and
      fulfillment in every instant. You might consider stopping the search
      (even for just long enough to take stock) and to see if what you are
      is not worthy of contentment.


      Freedom is freedom from both determinism and free will.
      Everything just occurs, spontaneously and without a doer. Nobody
      has to 'think about it'.


      You will find out eventually that the words of others are only
      words, the communications of others only communications... none
      of it real.

      Yes absolutely, 'your way', and finding out eventually that
      'your way' never worked. Often that is indeed the way it goes...
      not luck, only courage.

      "Guru's way," if it's any "guru" worth the name, will also be
      'your way' -- following the 'recommendations' of the Guru, "you"
      will discover it "your way."

      But in many cases, life is the Guru.



      In searching for meaning, I fear I have lost my way, which I
      understand is quite easy to do since there really is "no way". A
      quote I am sure you are familiar with "enlightenment is a word
      that is a gossamer vessel overflowing with sticky concepts." I
      fear I have become mired in the stickiness. Having suffered
      through a life of considerable pain at the hands of those who
      prey on the weak, it occurred to me recently (within the past 6
      months) that my weakness is a result of a lifelong search for
      unconditional love. There does exist such, but not in the form
      that I was looking for. This uncondtional love is not in human
      form and cannot be presented to me by another, rather I sense
      that it is within and around me yet completely out of my
      grasp...which leaves me in pain.I understand or at least I think
      I do that to have unconditional love is to love
      unconditionally...it unravels here for me. Can someone help me
      to pick up the threads?


      Thanks for something beautifully stated.

      How will I love, if I have been treated
      unlovingly, uncaringly, and hurtfully?

      How will I not internalize and repeat
      the past, and be open as "now",
      open with/as love?

      Can I know the love that doesn't reject --
      although I have experienced rejection
      from others? What is this love that
      is "now" beyond what others have shown,
      this love that has no "other", no
      "outside condition"?

      I start now, here, with whatever is
      here -- this feeling, this moment,
      if it be pain, then this pain...
      if it be avoidance, then looking
      into "avoidance" ...

      Can I accept all of me, inside
      and out, and so accept
      all the universe, rejecting
      no aspect? If I find myself
      rejecting (self or other),
      can I be honest
      and look into that contraction
      as it occurs?

      The love with no self or other
      won't be found by rejecting
      self or other, or trying to
      have self or other ...

      Can I be this love that
      isn't trying to get, have or
      be anything, from which
      all unfolds -- yet without
      covering up my own tendencies
      to want things, or want
      things a certain way, or want
      to get somewhere, or away
      from something?

      This love that judges not, for
      nothing is excluded, compares
      not for there is nothing else
      to compare it to...

      It can't be an object of study --
      so its work begins at home,
      here, as I am.

      If there is pain or a sense of
      woundedness or lacking --
      it begins here with that.
      Not glorifying or needing
      those sensations, but
      not negating or denying
      them --

      Just here, as I am...

      The only love there is ...


      There is only Unconditional Love (UL) - when memory would
      function properly, one could remember that the first impression
      of 'incarnated existence' is unconditionally loving this
      sentience... It is loved in its entirety. But when that is
      forgotten through traumas and/or upbringing, suffering can
      arise. This is neither 'good' nor 'bad' but when put to its
      extreme, it is like descending in a cone-like chalice of
      suffering - even when there is no notion of it. At the bottom,
      this singular point of a "nowhere", the loss of all notions and
      then, in a flash it is found one wasn't descending but ascending
      - the matter of perspective...


      I remember the day it dawned on me that the love I sought did
      not come in human form....and not even in the form of my beloved

      And I remember vividly the day....shortly thereafter....

      when lying in bed one night...praying to Jesus that he would
      help me open my heart to love. I prayed whole-hearted for what
      seemed like hours. After a great deal of time had passed....
      after my body and my mind and emotions were exhausted; and I was
      so totally 'spent' that I felt I couldn't move a single muscle,

      it felt as though my chest broke open....

      and it was as if I was being filled with something so much
      'larger' than myself.

      It was tremendous! I recognized it as Love, and knew it was
      unlike anything I could ever remember experiencing. Words really
      fail here, but it was a sense of being 'lifted', expanded',
      'filled', 'free', 'at One'. (...can't really describe it well,
      but suffice it to say it felt damned great!)

      I remember thinking at the time that my body could not 'hold'
      the experience.....it was as if it was just too much for
      me....something I would have to ease into,

      and yet I knew, intuitively, that this was how Life could be
      experienced day in, day out.

      It was not until years later, looking back on that first
      experience, that I could see that my challenge was NOT to work
      to try to 'contain' that amazing energy of Love.... as I had
      first imagined;

      but rather to dissolve *into* that amazing Energy.

      I could see, looking back on that night, that it was only after
      I was so exhausted....only after all resistances were 'worn
      down', and I was without expectation.....without hope or

      that I first experienced UL.

      Unconditional Love, Missy ......from my experience ....is what
      remains when all our hopes, our sense of neediness,
      expectations, desires and emotions have all been 'spent'.....and
      thus a 'space' is made clear for what remains.

      Perhaps this is what is meant by 'be still'.


      Dear Missy,

      Take a look at this website for it has one of the best
      descriptions that can be expressed in words of "be still" ....



      With gratitude to all beings of vastness on this wonderful list
      - my name is JP - new here - happy to share my deluded unknowing
      with you in words and heart.

      We are such intensely beautiful beings Who just want to Be

      Then happily, we no longer Want to Be. The want is stilled or is
      happily killed - just as all forms dissolve. Death, sweet master

      Then we find that we are not and IT IS with no we or me or you,
      up and down, good and evil, male and female, truth and
      falsehood, east and west, past and future.

      Then we still live as we or me or you, move with the temporary
      images, think complex thoughts, feel the waves of emotion, move
      with delusion, co-exist with neurosis, eat peanut butter
      sandwiches, drink pepsi, get sick, laugh, cry, grow old, die.

      Neurotic? Be with it with honesty. Depressed? Be with it with
      honesty. Dying? Yes, die and BE.

      Enlightenment? Nothing special.

      Ways innumerable to approach It - words uncountable to describe
      It. Pick one. Go deep. Be honest. Let the veils burn one by one.
      Or all at once in a conflagration.

      Words in every tongue of every age - all just symbols,
      metaphors, clues, images. "Tree" is not the one in my backyard.
      "JP" is not the being sitting, typing, sipping tea. Saying I AM
      a trillion times is not to experience It. Thinking of It is not
      experiencing It. Experiencing It once - what can one then say
      about it?

      Form and formless, personal and metapersonal, deity and demon.

      Complex? No.

      Just BE as you are.

      JP - eating fries and sipping tea.


      I would answer - You've got it. Now, practice loving, and pay
      attention to whether or not it's unconditional, and when it's
      not, find out why and remove that obstacle. Keep doing this
      until there are no more obstacles, and trust yourself to do it
      right. Good luck, and let me know how it goes. (I'm considering
      trying it myself, but it sounds like a lot of work and one of my
      conditions is that it all happen by itself for free.)



      Sound/ James

      Ape your father's sins, your mother's mood swings
      To perfection
      Fall into a spin, shed another skin
      Strip away all your protection

      Laugh at the wonder of it all
      Laugh so loud you break the fall
      And you see the gathering clouds
      Cry at the sadness of the world
      Cry so long you break its cold
      And you hear the gathering sounds

      Do everything you fear
      In this there's power
      Fear is not to be afraid of

      Laugh at the wonder of it all
      Laugh so loud you break your fall
      And you hear the gathering sounds

      Come, dip on in
      Leave your bones, leave your skin
      Leave your past, leave your craft
      Leave your suffering heart

      Come, dip on in
      Leave your bones, leave your skin
      Leave your past, leave your craft
      Leave your suffering heart



      There is nobody to be enlightened so the question is moot.

      However, I feel that there is awakening which I describe as
      understanding ones basic nature. The most significant aspect of
      this understanding is that 'you can never know who/what you are
      - you can only be it'.

      Awakening is relatively simply, living the understanding is very
      challenging because 'being' nobody means the 'death' of the


      Well said James. One does not know one's Self as an object of
      knowledge as there is no "you" to know. Some sages (Advaita-Vedanta) do
      make a distinction between Being and Knowledge. The nature of Being Is
      Knowledge. The Nature of Awareness Is to Be Aware. The Nature of
      Is Existence. Being-Awareness-Existence are same. When one finds one,
      finds that these three are One.

      James, it seems that living in general can be challenging whether
      someone has the so called "understanding" or not. Why do you say living
      "understanding" is challenging? Is it more challenging than living the
      "non-understanding." How does one live the understanding? What is meant
      challenging? Can you give an example? Would "Being" care about being
      and how that means the death of the I-entity and trying to reflect that
      living life and stuff like that? Just curious to know your perspective.
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