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Thursday April 5th

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  • andrew macnab
    ... The timeless light is itself realization, which is not an event, but a nonmoving infinite movement: all events, the nowness of all events, the timing of
    Message 1 of 1 , Apr 6, 2001
      >Enlightenment is not as precise a term as Realization for the most
      >precious experience. The light is always here, now. At one point in
      >the eternal present, This is realized.
      >Kir Li Molari

      The timeless light is itself
      realization, which is not
      an event, but a nonmoving
      infinite movement: all
      events, the nowness of
      all events, the timing of
      all times, the source of all
      events, the end of all events.

      Everything is realized from before
      any beginning, which is why
      anything and everything can
      ever appear as anything at all.

      Thus, there has never been any
      separate entity which needs
      any realization, or which
      realizes something at a
      point of time.

      Apparently separated points of
      time are "swimming in an ocean"
      of timelessness.

      Thus, all points of time are timeless.
      Thus, all apparent beings "in time",
      aren't "really there" as separable

      "Realization" is not an event or happening,
      is only "what is", is all apparent time moments
      simultaneously and timelessly, attachment
      to none and no-thing, and no separable
      entity ever having been there to realize
      or not realize.

      -- Dan


      Sri Dan,
      Time out! Many Zen Masters and others have detailed
      their experience of Realization, actually citing a date
      and time. "You" Realized all of This at one point in time.
      Before then, you were unrealized.



      Yes. Excellent and important point -- yet
      no "before", no "after" --

      What was/is realized is that realization
      never was nor could be absent,
      as "is" is no it, no then --
      only "now" -- every, any, all "now"
      as "now-ing" of all "nows",
      as "nothingness" of all appearances ...

      And ... what is described is an experience
      remembered and expressed to an audience -
      an important "turning point" for a conceptual
      entity - a moment in which conceptualizable
      experience and nonconceptualizable
      nothingness were/are one.

      And the description given, the describer,
      the memory, the audience -- all
      were/are "there" in/as this "moment".

      What then is the nature of "this moment"?
      Of necessity it is beyond experience,
      description, memory, teachers or
      students ... the "absolute presence"
      which allows Zen teacher, audience,
      speaking, hearing to occur -- in,
      of, and through which each appears as they are --
      perfectly in place as is ...

      That presence has no favorites, isn't any more
      in the Zen teacher and his memory, story
      and experience, than any of the listeners,
      or any of the rocks, grass, and space

      Realization as an experience
      that occurred to an entity in the past
      is like any experience of the past,
      remembered, construed, offered
      for consumption of others.

      In other words: a conceptual entity
      offers an expressed concept of
      an experience to other conceptual
      entities to read meaning into,
      seek after, believe in, etc.

      Thus, statues of Buddha, chants,
      prayers, texts -- all now become
      conceptually possible and conceptually

      What is beyond the concept, beyond
      the construal, untouched by memory,
      untouched by any entity claiming
      an experience?

      That "What" is even beyond any concepts
      associated with realization and
      experiences of realization.



      Doc Hobbes:

      But words in the lips of those that know them are as precious as the single
      drop that ripples the pool and propels our imagination into another few who
      will succeed us.


      And words are drops of time,
      sipped by connoisseurs who
      relish infinity, knowing
      "those who succeed"
      as a single ray of
      timeless light.

      Absorbing the moonlight,
      a flounder and two
      lidless eyes
      saw nothing but "up" ...
      -- NaMaste


      Hi Mark,

      You wrote:

      > Most of us are just plain crude about it, so hopefully it's obvious that
      > we are hoodlums. I am well aware that I am a real creep much of the
      > time. I judge just about everything. And then I judge the judging and
      > punish the judger, which fuels the whole game as near as I can tell.

      Could I sign my name here? I could have written this :)

      > Dies anyone else see that behavior in themselves, or are you all saints
      > (or all blind?) I think there are some saints here, but i doubt that
      > they will be insulted by this rant. If you are, perhaps it's a
      > worthwhile enquiry.

      You also wrote in another post:

      I mainly post about things that are important to
      me and I often get no responses, which is fine - that means to me that
      it wasn't so interesting to others. I usually let those topics drop
      (eventually anyway)

      Actually it is not true that when you get no responses it wasn't interesting
      to others. I usually, for different reasons, don't comment/add to the posts
      that are most important for me. But they stay with me and "do the job". All
      of your sharings count here. The work you do help me notice what I haven't or
      name what I have known. They enable simply to see more. Not to mention that
      the place they are spoken from is the only level worth communication, imo.
      Unfortunately, I usually more take than give here which bothers me a little
      But wanted to let you know how much it matters.



      i feel the same, liliana. i usually don't know how to respond to
      posts so i stay silent. i'm more in tune to presence. i guess that's
      why i emphasize in-person meetings. and then the occasional letter
      comes from someone i'd never heard of, who says they follow one list
      or another, one person or another, and they are grateful yet never
      heard from.



      While self-improvement is a worthwhile thing for every individual,
      it's not essential. What is essential is intimacy with the knowing
      that what is being improved upon can more easily be let go, and that
      letting go happens by itself when one attends to Grace or the Self.

      A person can work through one's conditionings or forget them and
      attend to Grace. Often teachers love to emphasize the work on one's
      conditionings because the work is long and students stay in their
      place. I don't care about conditionings, knowing Grace is stronger,
      so I attend to That.

      I know someone who was in a mental hospital and was told they would
      be there forever. One day Grace simply intervened and this person was
      released within two weeks, and we are very close friends. This person
      has led a fine life for the last 15 years since the hospitalization,
      and works in the mental health field with that unique perspective.

      A person can spend forever on the details of his or her life and how
      it's going, and some of that is certainly required, but it clouds the
      bigger picture.



      For some, the challenge is to look "thru"
      the clouds and storms ....and look towards
      what lies beyond them.

      For others, the challenge is to "clear
      away" the clouds and storms. And
      Self is seen easily, automatically.

      There is no right or wrong way.

      The 'way' is choice-less.

      If we were to truly see
      this choicelessness,

      we could much better abide
      the 'doings', or 'nondoings',
      of others.



      dear one

      what is there left?
      what else could we possible say?
      joy spurting from every pore of this formless form
      this freedom of nowhere to be and no one to be there
      anything that arises is evaporated at the source
      haha! nothing has ever arisen at all
      kiss you a thousand thousand times
      for listening and knowing
      all over your nonexistence!
      and yes, exactly as you are



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