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Monday and Tuesday, March 19th and 20th

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  • andrew macnab
    __________________________________________________________________________________ Jody and Dan; ... It is illusory. And that means there is what is real. And
    Message 1 of 1 , Mar 21, 2001

      Jody and Dan;

      >But this list supports "us" being so, in the relative
      >sense anyway. That is, while one can apply the overlay:
      >this is just one being being, there is still an involvement
      >between loci within that being, even if this "involvement"
      >is itself illusory.

      It is illusory.
      And that means there is
      what is real.
      And the words appear
      and disappear, without
      ever defining or "touching"
      the very reality which
      "allows" them to appear
      and disappear.

      >For instance, "your" words appear on occasion to correct "mine,"
      >which I appreciate.

      I appreciate the dialogue, too.
      If there is no one to correct or
      be corrected, regardless
      of the appearance, there
      is just words arising and
      vanishing, along with whatever
      sense of joy or happiness might
      arise and depart, too.

      >We are both not here, yet the words still
      >appear, and a communication between loci appears to have been
      >made, despite the fact that "we" as these loci don't exist.

      Yes, it's intriguing.
      Because nothing moved
      between loci.
      It's synchronicity, a wonder
      to behold -- although
      no one apart to behold it ;-)

      >I guess the point is that throwing out the concept of being
      >individuals without the underlying awareness and experiential
      >knowledge of such won't necesarily bring about the underlying
      >awareness and knowledge.

      Throwing out a concept still leaves
      whoever or whatever acted
      as the "thrower".
      There is no underlying awareness
      and knowledge, as seen here (oops, there I go
      again, sounding like I'm correcting
      you -- but honestly, it's just as arising
      here, as seen here).
      For something underlying, there has to
      be an overlay, something imposed
      on top of.
      The overlay, the apparent individual
      drama, doesn't impede or interfere
      with the reality which never
      arose or departed.
      The individual doesn't need to be
      denied, thrown out, or gotten
      rid of. There is literally nothing
      to be gotten rid of, and no one
      who could get rid of something.
      Never has been, never will,
      never could be -- it would be
      an immediate self-contradiction
      that would implode before
      being able to start.

      >Exploring ourselves fully in our
      >apparent manifestations as people might not either, but at
      >least we'll have gotten at some of those nonexistent cobwebs.

      Whatever seems to happen, seems to
      There is no choosing entity who can decide to explore
      or not explore.
      The appearance of a choosing entity seeming to
      arise, isn't chosen ;-)

      >Put another way, believing we don't exist only gives us a
      >belief in our non-existence, not an experiential understanding
      >of such.

      Jody - do you see the contradiction of
      an existing belief in our non-existence?
      The same contradiction is there with
      an existing experiential understanding
      of our non-existence.
      If we could non-exist, we could exist.
      So -- we neither exist nor don't exist.
      It doesn't depend on belief.
      A belief may arise in existence, non-existence,
      or a supertrancendent aardvaark. Beliefs
      arise and depart, and reality which "allowed"
      the arising and departing is "untouched"
      by the belief.

      > If we hold on to this belief instead of being who
      >we are in fullness and completeness, we run the risk of missing
      >out on our coming to the actual knowledge of our non-existence.

      The "knowledge" which has no object,
      has no beginning.
      Hence, it can't come into being for
      us, can't be something we miss out
      on or attain.
      By attempting to hold to a belief, an
      illusory sense of an "I" who can
      hold beliefs is manufactured by
      the attempt and the intent.
      Seeing this, the attempt is groundless,
      and no "I" actually is manufactured,
      just a self-conscious efforting
      based on nothing ;-)

      >Tbe belief could very well block the realization, just as our
      >believing we are individuals blocks the same understanding.

      From here (not correcting anyone ;-) the belief that something
      could block realization, blocks realization -- because
      it makes realization into a something, a something
      that could happen or not happen. Also, the attempt
      to be something, along with the fear of loss of being,
      blocks being aware. These two blocks are really the
      same -- the attempt to act from and be a "center".



      From Nisargadatta@yahoogroups.com ;

      Meeting Maharaj

      Hur has requested that I share my experience of meeting Nisargadatta
      Maharaj in 1978. I never took notes when I was there in Bombay so these
      recollections have been sealed in my memory for the last 23 years.

      In 1976 or 1977 ( I believe) a book review of I Am That appeared in the
      Mountain Path Magazine. The Mountain Path is the in house magazine of
      Sri Ramanasramam in South India. It was a very positive and
      because Maurice Frydman had been associated with Sri Ramana Maharshi ,
      it carried some weight.
      This was the first time I found out that there could be a living Jnani,
      a realized Sage of the caliber of Sri Ramana Maharshi. I sent for the
      book, read it and was blown away. I wrote to Maurice Frydman and he
      began to correspond with me. At some point he asked me to find a
      publisher for I Am That in the United States. So I began sharing I Am
      that with various spiritual publishing houses. I specifically sent it to
      Shambhala, Rainbow Bridge and Unity Press. They didn't feel it was good
      fit for their publishing houses. Then I got a letter from Mr., Dikshit,
      publisher of Chetana Press (which is the publisher of I AM That)
      informing me that Maurice Frydman had died and my letter had been found
      on his desk. So I began to correspond with Mr. Dikshit. I decided that I
      really wanted to visit Nisargadatta and started a correspondence with
      Mr. Hate (who was Maharaj's son-in-law). Which brings me to January 1978
      I flew Air India to Bombay with the intention of meeting Sri
      Nisargadatta Maharaj.

      We arrived ( my friend Rick and I) around 3 in the morning and sped at
      break neck speed from the airport to our hotel. The town looked like it
      was littered with corpses because so many people sleep in the streets.
      We got to our hotel room by stepping over the sleeping hotel staff and
      settled in for a little sleep. At promptly at six our phone rang, the
      management requiring our passports. The din outside our room turned on
      almost automatically, traffic racing up from Marine Drive. Across the
      street was the gray shiny Arabian sea.
      I wasn't sure I could stand our hotel room when we first arrived but
      after some sleep and meditation we agreed that it was a good place to
      stay. Mr. Hate called and said that he would take us to see Maharaj
      later that day. Mr. Hate, who was thin, and wiry with a big smile said
      that we should bring an offering when we see Maharaj. So we drifted
      through the neighborhood marketplace and settled on some bananas. The
      street where Maharaj lived was round the corner from the Alfred Cinema.
      The noise in the streets was cacophonous. We came to his home and
      stepped in. There was no formal satsang going on. In fact, Maharaj was
      getting a shave from a roving barber. My first look at Maharaj was very
      intense, especially because his whole face was covered with lather and
      his eyes burned with an intensity that I could not fathom.
      Was this love, anger or just total Awareness? I kind of wondered to
      myself if this was all a big mistake. Maharaj was about my height,
      around 5'3'' give a few inches. So he looked directly into my eyes. He
      was so intense. Mr. Hate explained who we were, were we came from, etc.
      So much intensity flowed through his eyes, through his whole being. We
      were invited to return the next morning for Satsang.

      Satsangs with Maharaj were predominately for western devotees and his
      Indian ones who had a discerning, discriminating mind. Maharaj also gave
      discourses for his Indian devotees and performed pujas.

      The Satsang room was a loft above the family living area. When I had
      read I Am That, I got the picture of
      Nisargadatta Maharaj building a little room, probably not tall enough to
      stand upright in. However, in reality,
      the room was spacious at least 10'x20' ( my guestimate.) One had to
      climb a narrow and sharply inclined staircase to get to it, but once in,
      there was quite abit of room. Of course, when you filled it with 10-20
      visitors it would crowded. The room was ringed with photos and drawings
      of various gurus. Some I did not recognized, some were familiar. There
      was a large photo of Ramana Maharshi which was up above Maharaj's
      cushion, Maharaj sat directly below a mirror and on the opposite wall
      was another mirror. To the side of Maharaj was an his portrait. The room
      had pictures of the nine Gurus of his lineage and a huge silver altar
      with a large photo of Sri Siddharameshwar. On many of the framed and
      glassed pictures was a dot of kumkum. Maharaj would replace the flower
      garlands and refresh the kumkum. If you arrived early you could see him
      engaged in this devotional activity. Those who think that Maharaj was
      not devotional would find out that he was very serious in this.

      I think I will send this now and if you have any questions we can
      discuss them.


      Posted by Hur:

      Awareness cleaned my mind
      to a polished mirroring.

      The presence came near, and I knew
      that That was everything,
      and I nothing.

      - Lalla
      14th Century North Indian mystic


      dear readers....i feel compelled today to share with you something personal....about
      nine months ago white wolfe was born when
      mark received spiritual transmission of the Beloved's Higher Love from his
      teacher....the poetry you read is the ripe fruit of that
      experience unfolding itself in my spirit....as my teacher points and leads me so i
      point you to what lies beyond....^^~~~~

      further up and further in,

      white wolfe

      the beloved’s secret

      “…the beloved is precious beyond all things…

      ….the beloved is the lover’s best reward…”

      -Proverbs 31:10-11

      when nothing is done, nothing is left undone

      oh, my readers, i love all creatures so deeply

      i must needs sing day and night, night and day

      i must sing because i have a secret dark lover

      if I don’t sing her praises nothing gets done

      even the sun refuses to open his bright eyes

      the corn refuses to grow and crows to scream

      nothing is left undone, when nothing is done

      i love you so much, i am going share a secret

      with you, just you, but you must promise me

      as soon as you hear it you must tell a friend

      if you do not i will know my singing is either

      filled with to many flats or too many sharps

      my praises will be undone and nothing done

      when nothing is done, nothing is left undone

      so here is my secret and help me get it out

      but when you do let is be as easy as gossip

      as soon as you hear it you must tell is to one

      but in the telling whisper, smile and giggle

      don’t go left or right, don’t go up or down

      gossip broadly as broad as the middle way

      nothing is left undone, when nothing is done

      my secret is the secret name of the beloved

      can you guess, beloved reader, with this clue

      the secret name of the beloved is the name

      of the one whose eyes dream gently by yours

      what! you say, my lover is not the beloved!

      silly you, you are dreaming in love’s cradle

      when nothing is done, nothing is left undone

      how do i know that what i say is true, you ask

      just now, i awoke in the soft arms of mirabei

      the dark one, a goddess within from beyond

      she smiled, she giggled and then whispered

      i love you so much, i must tell you a secret

      to you, just you, but you must promise me

      as soon as you hear it you must tell a friend…

      nothing is left undone, when nothing is done

      less and less do we force things, mira and i

      we are arrived at a time, a place of non-action

      for those in love there is no need for action

      mira and i, less and less do we force things

      you see, i am mirabei’s bright poet and she

      she sings to me the secret i am singing to you

      when nothing is done, nothing is left undone

      this is what mirabei sings to me, dear reader,

      You are the Beloved and the Beloved is You!


      whisper and giggle, let the gossiping begin!

      Nothing is left undone, when Nothing is done!

      mark christopher valentine

      (march 19, 2001)


      I would like to introduce you to Michael Hortling, a brilliant and most
      insightful Yogi and practitioner of Kundalini and Mantra Yoga. He has
      written an excellent and remarkable article based on his first hand
      knowledge of Kundalini awakening, its effects, and on mantra practice.
      Michael is one of the those humble and quiet souls who keeps a low profile
      but when he contributes, the depth and experience behind his sharing becomes

      Michael Hortling is currently residing in Germany. He combines mantra yoga
      practice with playing the guitar and creating music. As a youngster, he had
      a mystical experience while watching the Aurora Borealis drape itself across
      the Northern sky and this may have caused his energies to be like the
      Aurora, flowing, generously gentle and glowing brightly. We thank him for
      his wonderful sharing.

      Michael's article can be found by going to the following URL of the HS


      Here are some selected excerpts from Michael's article.

      Using Mantras with Kundalini

      "Over 20 years ago, the kundalini-shakti erupted within myself. Since I
      didn't have a clue about what had happened to me and I experienced some
      quite unpleasant side-effects of this awakening, I had to start looking for
      remedies in order to ease some of the discomfort. This has been a more or
      less ongoing process ever since and although I can't say that all problems
      have disappeared, some interesting insights and experiences have been gained
      and that alone has made the journey very worthwhile."

      "The effects on the psyche, and on one's ideas about oneself and life in
      general, that come about by an active kundalini are far reaching indeed, but
      this transformation seems to have a price attached to it. In my case I've
      been plagued by a variety of symptoms ranging from physical health problems
      to bouts of anxiety and depression. As a result, I've been led to closely
      observe and attempt to harmonize the innermost workings and mechanics of my
      mind and body using a variety of techniques and methods such as tai-chi,
      hatha-yoga and various types of meditation."

      "I was sitting in meditation one day, quietly repeating the mantra in
      thought, growing progressively calmer and relaxed as a result as the normal
      rush and clutter of the mind began to recede. Suddenly it hit me like bolt
      of lightning - I was inside "myself", calmly watching the mantra repeating
      itself, calmly observing whatever thought-processes still passed through the
      enormous sense of relief and gratitude welled up inside as I in one instant
      understood that everything that really created problems in my life was
      either mind or body, but that the real "I" was the silent and totally
      unaffected observer, calmly watching everything come and go."

      "This was a very profound experience since it in one instant blew the
      identification with the mind to bits. I had always somehow thought that I
      actually WAS the constant inner monologue and imagery playing themselves out
      and now this was shown to be not true at all in a perfectly clear way. I was
      actually the screen on which the mind with its movies was projected - but I
      wasn't the images themselves."

      Again, thanks for a beautiful and well written article Michael and thanks
      Amanda for asking Michael to contribute. I love Michael's easy flowing
      straight from the heart writing style as will others.

      Love to all


      The mind of comparison is
      the mind of the past,
      of the survival instinct,
      of meaning-making.

      Without comparison,
      there is no time,
      nothing that needs to survive,
      no meaning to be made.

      Just this.


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