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Hightlights for Saturday 02/14/01

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  • Beth352006@aol.com
    Q.1. What does Nisagardatta mean by ... ... Whatever comes up, I guess... I m certainly not the only one you invited to answer the questions, and others did
    Message 1 of 1 , Feb 25, 2001
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      Q.1. What does Nisagardatta mean by ...

      Tim/Seeker:

      --- In NondualitySalon@y..., Jan <swork@a...> wrote:
      > Beloved Tim,
      > I can puzzle out what he means. So what are we going to do on this
      > list?  Exchange bad jokes or keep sending blank messages?

      Whatever comes up, I guess... I'm certainly not the only one you
      invited to answer the questions, and others did answer ...

      It's just that... I read "I Am That," and found it most beneficial to
      meditate on "What could he possibly be saying?"  If someone had told
      me outright (admittedly I didn't ask), the discovery would have
      been "someone else's" and not "mine."  So I'm simply saying that it
      was more helpful 'for me' to figure it out, rather than get answers
      the easy way.

      Seeking to maintain a humility level is silly... you may eventually
      discover that humility is still ego, and in some cases (I'm not
      referring to you) it can be downright egotistical.

      What appears as egotistical often isn't, and what appears as humility
      is often masquerading as heavy-duty ego, from what I've found.

      Perhaps you still feel a need for reassurance... but comes a time
      when what is needed is not reassurance, but doubt and confusion, to
      enter a 'cloud of unknowing'.  In fact, doubt and confusion can be
      far more 'beneficial' than reassurances.

      > Or are you telling me that I am the only learner on this group?

      Of course not.  It just looked like the particular questions you were
      asking aren't "rocket science."  I could be wrong of course, everyone
      sees things differently.

      > Why did Ramana & Nisargadatta teach?

      Choicelessly, out of love.

      > Why was this group formed?

      Jerry could explain it, it has something to do with another list
      called 'IAM' starting to fall apart, so Jerry Katz (Umbada) decided
      to organize a new one.

      Tim/Seeker:
      At 24.02.01-01:02 PM, you wrote:
      >Of course not.  It just looked like the particular questions you were
      >asking aren't "rocket science."  I could be wrong of course, everyone
      >sees things differently.

      Dear Tim,

      Rocket science is easy. All that uses logic or builds on what already is
      known is easy. However here  I am in unknown territory where logic many times
      is discarded. Here I don't even know who is speaking from experience and who
      is a pretender. To quote:

      Papaji:
      "If one is not a holy person, one is not worthy to receive the real teaching.
      Many people think that they have attained the final state of full and
      complete liberation.
      They have fooled themselves,and they have fooled many other people,
      But they have not fooled me.
      A person in this state is like a fake coin.
      It may look like the real thing.
      It can be passed around and used by ignorant people
      who use it to buy things with ...
      "

      Gill:
      Yesterday I went over to spend some time with a friend, and he told me
      a story relating to this. He said that you could have a conversation with
      two people about climbing  Mount Everest. One of them has actually made the
      climb, the other has read all about in it books. The second person is very
      knowledgable, may have climbed many other mountains, and can tell you in
      words all about the mountain. The knowledge, however, is intellectual, not
      experiential.

      Both can tell you pretty much the same story, but if your own
      heart is open, if you are really listening, you will know 'who is speaking
      from experience and who is a pretender'.

      Tim:
      Dear Jan,
      If you don't take words too seriously, and take them as "pointers"
      only, the issue is over and done with.  You will then be relying on
      yourself instead of others.  The ultimate key is to rely on your own
      direct experience in all of this.  Approach everything with
      skepticism, explore it, if it doesn't "work for you" drop it
      immediately and move on.  It's the scientific approach.

      Believe me, there is no "wrong way," as long as you don't let
      yourself get stuck anywhere.  As long as you don't pick one point of
      view and decide it's "true" and you will stay with it "forever."

      When I first got into this 'nonduality thing,' I was "into" Shankara,
      then got interested in Vivekananda and the whole Neo-Vedanta thing,
      then got interested in Buddhism, then dropped that for Nisargadatta,
      then went through a Zen period... I've been through periods of seeing
      the world as a dream, seeing the body as real, seeing the body as
      unreal, have experienced various blissful states, painful states,
      pleasant states, unpleasant states, bizarre states, normal states,
      altered states, expansive states, contracted states...

      You see what I mean?  Go with the flow.  None of this stuff
      is "harmful" unless you attach to it and make it some sort of
      absolute.  Go with it, see where it leads.  It's an adventure.

      Maybe you can't get into the 'explorer' spirit?  OK... I certainly
      don't know what's right for you... some sages do recommend "dig a
      deep well in one place rather than many shallow wells..." -- that
      approach never worked for me.
      Love, Omkara

      Jan/Tim

      Dear Tim,

      However here  I am in unknown territory where logic many
      ºtimes is discarded.

      You are not in an unknown territory: You can't be something else
      but yourself. The re-discovery of "that" is independent of scriptures,
      teachers or whatever. How else could nondualism ever have been established?
      Alien visitors teaching humans? And who taught the aliens?:)


      ºHere I don't even know who is speaking from experience
      ºand who is a pretender. To quote:
      º
      ºPapaji:
      º"If one is not a holy person, one is not worthy to receive the real
      ºteaching. [ see above for whole statement]

      That quote is Papaji's: that means, go there and ask a few questions:
      1. The context of the quote?
      2. What is a holy person and what is an unholy one?
      (Frankly, I don't see a iota of difference between the "holiness" of the pope
      and a lady from the red light district)
      3. What is liberation? What is bondage?
      (For me, concepts - in order to know intellectually, one has to stuff the
      mind like a turkey -  that is "bondage" :)

      Seeker:

      Beloved Jan B, Beloved List,

      I think I am not making where I stand clear. You all are assuming that I
      have already bought in to the idea of 'non-dualism' so I should dive
      straight in without asking too many questions. I have to agree that at
      present Ramana et al.'s ideas seemed to be the most attractive.

      You have to remember my background. An agnostic for almost 30 years! After  
      the mystical experience [hardly two months ago] my heart has been on fire  
      [well to be honest the fire is getting smaller]. So I have to scrutinize  all
      teachings and ask some very silly questions in order to decide what my  next
      action should be.

      I understand very well what most of you are hinting at. It has to be my own  
      self-discovery. It cannot be explained but has to be experienced. Different
      people are pointing in similar yet differing directions. Ultimately it will  
      have to be decided by trial and error and perhaps in the direction my heart
      is pointing at.

      Sorry to keep boring you with my posts. The time for me to remain silent is
      near.

      Harsha:
      You are not boring Jan. Ask anything you want. Sri Ramana was asked all the
      time and he almost always was happy to engage in a discussion and answer,
      particularly in the last 40 years or so of his stay in Arunachala. As many
      know Ramana was more or less silent in the beginning for some years but
      gradually increased his interaction with his environment.

      A friend of mine, a psychologist and a well known yogi visited India in the
      1980s seeing many gurus and teachers. Once he went to see a very famous yogi
      but the Swami was away. Someone at that Ashram told him to go and see this
      other person. So my friend went to see Sri Nisargadatta and ended up staying
      there for a week. Nisargadatta was not well know then. He said that
      Nisargadatta would stand at the door and look at the line of people waiting
      to see him. Sometimes Nisargadatta would actually pick people from the line
      by pointing at them and let them come in. You! You! and You! Nisargadatta
      would say pointing at those he wanted inside. Then he would be happy to talk
      to them and answer any questions.

      Don't be bothered by other people's opinions Jan. It is enough that you are
      bothered by your own! :-). Sages, who see to the heart of the matter become
      very gentle even with themselves.
      Love, Harsha

      Seeker/Jerry:
      Jan wrote:

      > What does Nisagardatta mean by the following?
      >
      > "...the unconscious dissolves when brought into
      > the conscious.
      > The dissolution of the unconscious releases energy;
      > the mind feels adequate and becomes quiet."

      one brings all things to I AM

      > and this?
      >
      > 16. "By elminating the intervals of inadvertance
      > during the waking hours you will gradually eliminate
      > the long interval of absent-mindedness,
      > which you call sleep.
      > You will be aware that you are asleep."

      attending to I AM at all times, in time one will be only attending to I AM;
      there will be no gap.

      > and this?
      >
      > "Since it is awareness that makes
      > consciousness possible, there is awareness in every
      > state of consciousness. Therefore, the very
      > consciousness of being conscious is already a
      > movement in awareness. Interest in your stream of consciousness takes you
      > to awareness..."

      replace awareness with 'the absolute' and consciousness with 'I AM'.
      --jerry

      Jerry on Papaji:

      > Papaji:
      > "If one is not a holy person, one is not worthy to receive the real
      teaching.

      show me one unholy thing.

      > A person in this state is like a fake coin.
      > It may look like the real thing.
      > It can be passed around and used by ignorant people
      > who use it to buy things with ..."

      there cannot be real and fake coins. Papaji, for his own reasons, is speaking
      from a certain point of view. All speakers speak from different aspects; no
      one is all right or all wrong.
      Love, Jerry

      Jerry:
      Feel free to ask as many questions as you want. It'll keep you busy while
      waiting for the answer which no one give, but which you become. You --
      everything -- becomes the answer.

      Why do people do what they do? Teach or whatever? The doing is simply done.
      They would say nothing is done, it only appears to you that something is done.
      --------------------------------------------
      Guru Ratings List:

      Tim:
      Is affirmation truly marvelous, or is it of the same "ilk" as denial?


      Beth:
      My opinion is: :o) that affirmation makes both the giver and receiver feel
      good...it is as rewarding to give praise to people and truly mean it, as it
      is to get it, sort of a double gift, bringing people closer.  Denial means
      pain for both the receiver and the giver.  Now...what if Sarlo had said just  
      the opposite...and meant it? Greg would feel bad, Sarlo would have already  
      felt bad to make the statement in the first place...ergo, separation and  
      pain.

      So perhaps the concept of both is the same, but the results of both are
      different...except: when the statement is made in sarcasm, or when the
      receiver hates to be praised...and that is a 'nuther whole email.

      Sarlo:
      Affirmation IS of the same ilk as denial, but the question of marvelous is
      independent. Denial can be marvelous or not, as can affirmation. Sri Greg's
      affirmation is noted as marvelous because his willingness to support others
      on their chosen journeys is almost superhuman. Even when someone's chosen
      path is on the face of it idiotic, Greg consistently demonstrates his faith
      in the wisdom of All-That-Exists by supporting those upon whom he bestows his
      benediction to Carry On, to trust their Inner Guidance, to listen to that
      still small voice, though the hounds around are howling "Idiot!" Greg
      understands profoundly the IAMness of all.

      Harsha:
      It is true what you say Sarlo-ji of Sri Greg-Ji. He is one of the rarest
      gems one can come across. Words fail to do justice to his generosity and his
      gifts and talents that he shares in abundance with all that he comes across.
      It is truly our good fortune to know Greg-ji and be in his smiling and
      radiant Presence which beams through his being as Being.

      Sarlo/Tim:
      > Affirmation IS of the same ilk as denial, but the question of
      > marvelous is independent. Denial can be marvelous or not, as can
      > affirmation.

      Excellent point.  I guess I was confused by the term 'marvelous
      affirmer'.

      > Sri Greg's affirmation is noted as marvelous because his
      > willingness to support others on their chosen journeys is almost
      > superhuman.

      Perhaps because he recognizes that ultimately "the path chooses us,"
      not the other way around.

      > Even when someone's chosen path is on the face of it idiotic, Greg
      > consistently demonstrates his faith in the wisdom of All-That-
      > Exists by supporting those upon whom he bestows his benediction to
      > Carry On,

      This is something I usually miss, the 'consistent' behaviors of
      others.  Generally approaching every message like it was the first
      I've ever read by them.  I don't know why.

      --------------------------------------------
      Can you guess who said this?

      Tim:

      Can you guess who gave the following (excerpt from) a speech below?  I'll
      wait for a few guesses, then I'll reveal who the speaker is.  Email me if
      you're really curious (coresite@...).

      Hint - it wasn't Gandhi.

      I'm willing to bet someone will get it, or get close at least... :-)

      --------

      (...)

      A worn-out and obsolete world order will not be capable of saving humanity
      and creating the natural conditions indispensable for a dignified and decent
      life on the planet. Real equality of opportunity and genuine justice for all
      human beings of every nation, ethnic group, culture and religion cannot
      continue to be put off in any corner of the world. This is not an ideological
      matter; it has become a matter of life and death for the human species.

      (...) The first symptoms of crisis are already visible, and that crisis
      will be even more profound to the extent that the real economy is
      transformed into a speculative economy, encompassing most of the financial
      operations taking place in the world every day.

      The conflicts between centers of economic power will increase, and the fight
      for markets will be fiercer. The usual objectives of any system of production
      have been turned upside down: the economy does not function and grow to
      create goods and services; goods and services are consumed to make the
      economy function and grow.

      Nevertheless, there is not the slightest indication that those who control
      the bulk of the world’s power and resources are capable of understanding this
      reality, and even if they did understand it, t
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