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Friday January 26, 2001

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  • Gloria Lee
    It was a slow day at the Salon, so we visit some other nondual lists. Jerry has made visiting easy. If you re not a member of those lists, their messages are
    Message 1 of 1 , Jan 27, 2001
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      It was a slow day at the Salon, so we visit some other nondual lists.
      Jerry has made visiting easy.
      If you're not a member of those lists, their messages are public and can be
      accessed from my home page at the bottom:

      Well, except there is always good old reliable DAN BERKOW
      Dear Matthew,


      I find validity in your
         critique, regardless of your
         hair style ;-)  In fact, as
         seen here, it's
         well worth considering
         that superiority and
         self-delusion can hide
         behind advaita concepts
         that no one is separate.

      I also interpret your critique as
          an observation that
         "contraction" or "the
          sense of separated self-hood"
          may still be
          happening in spite of, or
          even because of, flowery
          words about states of
          total realization.  That also
          seems on-target and worth

      However, I find the statement
         that everyone is necessarily
         wanting and believing in their
         own superiority to be a
         a generalization.  In fact,
         the statement suggests to me
         that actually no one is superior,
         as everyone is equally trying
         to manufacture that belief
         at everyone else's expense.
         And if, in fact, no one truly is
         in the superior position to
         be one-up on everyone
         and judge all,
         then this fact could be
         known and someone might
         not be investing in superiority,
         nor looking for superior others.

      Matthew, you haven't told me yet how to
         get to your superior position,
         except by seeking serious
         professional help.
      And every professional I've asked
         has no idea what your superior
         position is.  So they said they can't
         help me get to where you are,
         that place where one is truly
         superior, so superior that
         everyone else's attempts
         to be superior can be
         critiqued with total
         clarity, and everyone
         else's defensiveness
         can be seen -- without
         any defensiveness of
         one's own interfering
         as one is critiquing them.

      Applying your own words,
         someone in the frame of
         reference of superiority
         will not see it
         as a defense, will
         believe their critique of
         others is on-target, and
         that it is other people's
         problems that keep
         them from hearing
         the accuracy of the

      A question I have here
         is when is nondefensive trust
         possible, when can "the
         intent to be one-up" be released,
         when is equality and
         honest sharing possible,
         including sharing
         of critiques without defense --
         according to your view?

      By the way, why is the "L" word difficult?
      Would you prefer I don't use it?

      --- Dan
        A NET of JEWELS
      daily meditations for seekers of Truth

      January 26

      Trying to control the mind forcefully is like trying to flatten out waves
      with a board.  It can only result in further disturbance.

      ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~

      The true understanding comes from outside.  It is not of the space-time
      dimension.  Therefore, we can only call it Grace.  Keeping your being open
      and receptive to that other dimension is a matter of Grace.
       From A Net of Jewels  MELODY ANDERSON
      Subject:  drawing conclusions

      It seems to me that the source of much of the antagonism,
      hurt feelings, and misunderstandings on these email
      lists ( and elsewhere)  comes from the mind's practice of
      'drawing conclusions'......
      the often unconscious, automatic practice of measuring,
      comparing, and putting people, events, and thoughts
      into neat little boxes of 'knowns' -
      such as the 'knowns' in which one is labeled as "coy, defensive, 
      and insecure"
      or a "little girl playing dress-up Zen master"
      or someone not qualified to "help me on my path".
      It seems from here that the ultimate challenge is in no 
      longer trying to define, evaluate, (or even change)
      other people....or our situations... period! 
      It is my challenge, to be sure.
      From HarshaSatsangh  JERRY WEINSTEIN

      Which book by Bhagavan Das should you suggest ?

      Greetings from France,


          Bon jour, Froggy Jacques ....   This book is a natural for you, mon amis
      ... Bhagavan Das was a wild man --- just your type:)). The title of the book
      is IT'S HERE NOW (ARE YOU?) published by Broadway Books in l997.  lt's a
      wonderfully informative and entertaining chronicle about life on the road as
      a spiritual traveler in lndia in the 60's, and then in the US too after he
      returned home as a young spiritual starlet.                                    
                                          BD was there for several years and only
      returned to the US after visa problems forced him to leave. He opened himself
      up to lndia and experienced it fully. The title of the book is a take off on
      Ram Dass' BE HERE NOW. BD also has some humorous remarks about what Ram Dass
      was like in lndia before he got with the spiritual program.                    
      From Mt Kailash,                                                               
        jerrysan rinpoche

      Here is a direct link :


      for those who wish to order this book from Powells.

      From HarshaSatsangh   MARK OTTER
      Hi Gang,

      I've been enjoying the discussion on Gill's experience, and am moved to
      tell a short story of my own (past) exeriences with drug-related
      openings. Well, maybe two stories.  My experiences suggest that LSD can
      facilitate deep openings, but that a certain degree of readiness is
      necessary for the quick intense experiences to become integrated.  I had
      an experience of being peeled like a banana by the hand of God, which
      left me with none of the tension in my body that I usually carry.  This
      was the first time I had any clue how MUCH tension there usually is.  It
      was numinous, and I spent considerable time laughing joyously at
      discovering my name, and it was perfectly clear that all is right and
      fine and there is no need whatsoever for fear of any kind.  I consider
      it a true immersion into my true self.  Of course it wore off, and I
      tried many times to recreate it in the way that I had come to it the
      first time.  Finally, the drug itself asked me to stop.  I had an
      experience of being an infinitely long string in an infinitely large
      space of infinitely many, infinitely long strings, each of which was
      perpendicular to every other one, and the use of the drug was revealed
      to me as creating tension in the string that was me, which then was
      pulling on every other string, causing it to not be straight.  (is that
      the source of the word straight meaning not using drugs? hmmm....).
      Anyway, at the time, the point was very clear that the drug had given me
      a true glimpse into my nature, but that it would not replace the
      practice that would remove the layers of conditioning that hid it, and
      that further use would actually add to those layers.  The tension in the
      string was named karma, and I was adding to it, not relieving it by my
      explorations.  I make no claims whatsoever about what this very personal
      experience means for anyone else.  I just mean to say that from my
      perspective, the K opening, which I am confident that the first
      experience was, was bone fide, but because of the means by which it was
      elicited, it was temporary and I also mean to say that the drug itself
      told me to stop using it. That was very clear while on the drug, but I
      used it several more times afterward because the clarity wore off.

      So to the naysayers who say there is no value in drug experiences, I say
      pooh.  And to anyone who says that drug use by itself is a sensible
      spiritual practice, I say pooh.  Finally, to those who suggest that any
      experience that isn't the ultimate enlightenment experience isn't worth
      having or talking about, I say pooh.  If that were true, why would we
      waste our time being alive?  It's all grist for the mill, but I
      certainly agree from where I'm sitting, that to label any experience as
      the end all and be all, and to claim completion is silly.  Surely this
      will endlessly reveal itself  to be deeper and deeper and more and more
      marvelous.  Yum!  I say GOOD WORK, GOD!!! (and pat myself on the back)

      Love, Mark

      From HarshaSatsangh  DAN BERKOW
      Dear Mark,

      I once saw a bear
         with his head
           stuck in a honey

      He thought he was
         seeing God because
           his eyes were covered
             with honey.

      When he got out of
          the jar, all he could
           talk about was how
             God is honey.

      I laughed and laughed,
          because who could
           ever say a bear
           is wrong for thinking
            God is honey?

      I love Winnie,
           and thanks for
            your pooh,


      From Advaitin  GANGA KARMOKAR
      From:  "Ganga Karmokar"
      Subject:  "I Am Not" with Comments
      V:Transient is changing every second, micro second, nano second,
      infinitesimal second....
      Ever-changing Transient cannot be real! Yet it appears as image,
      feeling, sound .....
      G: Yes maya realm is in constant flux... ever new... ever newly
      created and also in constant demise... Simply it is that emptiness
      which appears and dis-appears within the framework of divisionary
      time.... yet all this may be transcended... What appears and
      disappears is the illusion of ego.. and all the rest only is
      supporting that illusion... Within ego all maya realm opperates
      according to the nature of the conditionings of mind and society...
      but upon Self awareness the conditionings shatter... And what remains
      is That Which Is -
      Ever Free....... that which maya is only a dim reflection of in
      twisted illusions of truth....

      V:Source is constant - it always IS-Source is real! Yet Source
      seen, felt, heard ....
      G: Yes Source is the Constant and Source is the only real-ity...
      While it is true that you cannot hold - nor taste - nor touch the
      Formless Constant... it is not true that it may not be KNOWN.... You
      can have DIRECT EXPERIENCE OF.... This is Self Realization.... but it
      is only experienced when you have reached absolute Still Awareness
      and have surrendered the ego form to What Is..... In that moment you
      will KNOW BRAHMAN....  The Essence - The Source....

      V:When will the transient end? When will the experience of
      G:When you experience the Self which is not the self of personality
      but that which is the substance behind all forms illusions.... And
      then you no longer care whether the transitory remains or not... THAT
      is Moksha... Then Maya is only the waking Dream State and you are
      unconcerned about it remaining or ending... it is as it is..... and
      you remain That Which maya proceeds from and returns to.....

      V. Drop the "I am" from the transient - self surrender - and transient
      will melt leading to the experience of the Source.
      (The one who is going to drop "I am " please step forward!  Transient
      "I am" dropping itself upon  suggestion "surrender" is another
      transient illusion?)]
      G: You are once again attempting to do this in logic... It will only
      be realized when you first make all effort until you hit the wall -
      the wall occurs when you have done all that you can do within the
      satvic way.. when you have exhausted the external means and have
      prepared yourself... when you are of pure mind and intent... when you
      have come to the complete overwhelming desire to reach... when you
      have turned your back on maya and want nothing more to do with its
      pain and illusions... when your only desire is TRUTH.... When your
      very soul cries out for liberation... When you have done the pujas
      and outer forms... and have come to internal awareness of the onging
      puja of life... when all of this has been met... Then you are ready
      to Surrender Completely the Ego to its death...
      Until then it is only a game of intellect another thing that is
      wanted to gain... like a trophy on a wall.. like another diploma...
      do not make the mistake of the intellectuals who know the words and
      think they have obtained the substance... for they are in the
      greatest darkness... and have the longest path to climb.....

      V:Fools sit in the realm of maya and repeat what sages say withoutthe
      realization - thus ending in shunya(there is nothing to know...)
      G: They only mouth the words as a parrot that is taught a phrase...
      but the content the "knowing" is not there... it is only theory... as
      long as there is the illusion that by words it is known... the
      delusion continues.... once the debate and words have ended and are
      at an end and the silence is entered into fully... by fully it is
      meant that you have surrended the all which you have falsely
      perceived to be - think and know as truth... when all this has been
      surrenderd... when you realize that you ultimately know nothing...
      and you surrender completely to That Which Is then Realization will
      be seen... But all is surrendered.. all your notions and concepts...
      all your knowledge and ideations... all your desires (even the desire
      for liberation) and that which is termed you - your personality -
      your very life is surrendered... then what emerges is the EVER
      PRESENT BRAHMAN..... beyond aspects - beyond form - beyond
      personality - beyond limitations and divisions.... and it is
      KNOWN..... and there the ESSENSE rests.... in the depths of the ocean
      of Bliss... and from the depths you look upon the maya realms as only
      waves upon the top... but never again do the waves disturb the ocean
      depths.... only SHANTI ONLY ANAND REMAINS....

      v:Now the final question -
      Within Maya all I can do is try to surrender,shed ego,still
      mind....... do the Upasana - experience will come depending on the
      intensity of my Upasana.OR Whatever you do within Maya is of no avail
      to reach the Brahma
      ........whether I do the Upasana or not has no bearing on knowing the
      truth. There is no algorithm to reach Brahma...Jai Gange Jai
      G: Yes the ultimate question.... you do what you can to purify the
      mind and thoughts and outlook... ever going inward... see beyond the
      outward forms of puja etc... knowing that ultimately the Truth or
      Brahman will only be found within.... the outward practices should
      only serve to draw you ever inward to Self discovery.... they are
      steps along the way.... ultimately total surrender must come to the
      process.... but not all are ready for the ultimate surrendering right
      away.... and therefore must take the longer road of outward practice
      ever proceeding to the center of Self.... beyond all practice...
      While in duality when you are still held within the clutches of right
      and wrong - black and white then you always strive for the most
      Satvik path that you can conceive.... But knowing that in the end ALL
      practices and sense of doership must be surrenderd.... The best upon
      the path is continued Satsang with Sages...
      What is the use of continued study of endless words? While you need
      the basics of understanding the Truth that is pointed to by the words
      may only come to be KNOWN by surrender to the Silence Within where
      even the within and without will be transcended....
      You start with Contemplation of one thought or ideation to steady the
      mind... and simplify your outward life... ever concious of the
      inner... let the outward world simply fade away day by day.... Once
      the mind is settled then Meditation will begin... and meditation is
      an absolutely silent mind... no thought... simply awareness.... when
      that state has been reached and you have drawn your focus totally
      inward the body consciousness will drop....and the Anand will rise on
      its own accord... this is the beginning to the realm of Brahman....
      at that point is when total surrender comes into play... Then you
      drop the ALL into the ocean and just remain still.... not fighting
      the urge that you will sink and die... have faith... just give it all
      no energy... remain still... and the illusions that have held you
      bound will shatter.... and Brahman ALONE will be "KNOWN" ... and the
      path is at an end.... the searching is over... complete..
      forever to rest within the Ocean of Bliss....
      Love and Blessings dear Vijay and to all who find these words...

      Sat*Chit*Anand   Shanti-Shanti-Shanti    Om


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