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Tuesday-Wednesday January 23-24

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    Hello Subscribers, This issue of the highlights includes some cool posts from other lists that have opened recently. I ve noted the ones from other lists.
    Message 1 of 1 , Jan 25, 2001
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      Hello Subscribers,

      This issue of the highlights includes some cool posts from other
      lists that have opened recently. I've noted the ones from other
      lists.
      --Jerry

      _____________________________________________________________

      you say
      suchness of now
      i say
      what now?
      you say
      exactly as it is
      i say
      what is?
      i say
      suchness of now?
      you say
      exactly!
      i say
      let's call the whole thing off!
      you say
      why?

      oh! mmmmm.
      cee

      ------------------------------

      we(?)are one

      i was forever trying to understand
      how are we all one?

      trying to merge all the parts
      left me a part

      someone with two legs can't understand these things
      that's why it's called spirituality

      love, cee

      _____________________________________________________________________

      UARLOVE AND DAN BERKOW

      You can read a comparison of the "no effort, no choice" approach
      taught by: Papaji (Poonjaji) and his ambassadors and J.
      Krishnamurti including the "everything is a functioning of the
      totality" fatalism taught by Ramesh and Wayne verses the intense
      continuous effort approach taught by: Sri Ramana Maharshi and
      Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj by clicking:
      http://home.talkcity.com/GaiaWay/Infinite_Freedom/DISCERNMENT.htm
      With Love,
      uarelove


      Dear Uarelove,

      Thank you for sharing this page with us.

      It is a clear presentation of a
      helpful point of view.

      I wonder whether there may be
      an integration of seemingly
      divergent approaches possible
      here?

      The enquiry suggested by Ramana and
      the no effort approach you cite in the
      teaching of Krishnamurti and
      Ramesh may well overlap.

      For example, at any time that I am looking
      to see if I am doing nothing, by so looking
      I am doing something. Any time I think
      to myself, "K. said to do nothing, so this
      is okay right now, I'm doing nothing", this,
      in fact, is doing something. If I notice this,
      then there is inquiry into compulsive patterns
      of thought around "I".

      So, to really observe whether there is
      no doing occurring, ends up being
      deep inquiry into the "observer".

      Many of Krishnamurti's teachings referenced
      looking deeply into the "observer" ...
      this seems very much the enquiry into
      self-nature given by Ramana.

      The statements you make about charging
      money seem rather black and white, either-or.
      There may be gradations -- for example,
      a distinction can be made between
      one who charges to pay for plane fare
      and a place to talk to people vs. someone
      who charges exorbitantly to furnish a
      luxurious lifestyle. Also, if the first
      person also gives free teachings on
      occasion, that would be different than
      one who never offers free teachings.

      Your presentation about the teaching of
      "Self never acts" is clear.
      The key as seen here is that once this
      teaching becomes something to
      look into, there already is an "I"
      wanting to look into it. Once there
      is the thought, "Am I seeing a world
      or not seeing a world?", that thought
      already is "being seen" ...

      So, the reality of "Self never acts" or
      "no world is seen" can never be
      given as a teaching, as in providing
      the statement "no world is seen"...
      for in construing the teaching,
      and hearing it, there is the
      teaching being heard as a teaching...

      Love,
      Dan

      ___________________________________________________________

      Dear Lists,

      I don't normally pass on this type of warning but it was passed
      on to me by a very reliable source.... Everyone is always
      sending warnings about viruses, people trying to drug you in the
      street, mobile phone scams - the list goes on and on. I don't
      ever forward any of these warnings, but this one seems like a
      real one and I want to share it:

      WARNING:

      If a man comes to your front door and says he is conducting a
      survey and asks you to show him your boobs, DO NOT show him your
      boobs. This is a scam and he is only trying to see your boobs.

      PLEASE READ and forward to warn others.

      ----------------------------

      Dear Jerry,

      You're making it much more difficult for me to conduct my survey.
      It is NOT a scam, it is serious work.

      andrew

      ----------------------------

      Was that you?????

      --beth

      __________________________________________________________________________


      WHITE WOLF

      ...philosophy is the process of unveiling the question beneath the
      answer....^^~~~

      all questions will be answered

      "Tao in the world is like streams following into the sea."
      -Lao Tzu

      the diamond at the heart of all experience
      is a precious jewel of indescribable beauty
      it can be worshipped, adored and loved
      but not possessed by any single creature
      nor ensnared by any means we possess
      including all that is language and all that is art

      seated at the absolute center and beginning
      it is infinitely small and cannot be seen with the eye
      it remains eternally lost in the depths before time

      residing outside of all that is complete and ending
      it is so large that it cannot be grasped or understood
      it presence is infinitely beyond the reach of imagination

      when this diamond shatters the universe unfolds
      and the one who are now many must be named
      once the many of been perceived and named
      attempts at further discrimination result in blindness
      the mind is an arrow that travels far only to pierce itself
      ultimately creating the silence it so strenuously avoids

      the beginning of all truth is a matter of the mystic mind
      the end of all wisdom is a concern of the sacred heart
      to travel far or seek deeply the end result is the same

      all journeys end in their beginning, begin in their ending
      with the discovery of the beloved, the other, the lover
      the holy jewel, the precious diamond, the perfect desire
      beyond the mystic mind at the center of the sacred heart

      seek the beloved with an empty mind
      love the beloved with a pure heart
      and all questions will be answered

      including all that is art and language
      not to be ensnared with any gifts we receive
      the beloved mother and compassionate father of all
      we can know it by worship, adoration and love
      it is the precious jewel beyond price and value
      it is the diamond at the heart of all that is
      creation

      mark christopher valentine
      (January 23, 2000)

      ______________________________________________________________

      HOBBES

      The master that plans to trick his enemy into building the
      masters empire does not plan for his enemy's victory nor does he
      know how the vitory is attained.

      The Christian God is a forged God that defends itself unlike any
      other and unlike the false gods that need the hired defences.

      Life is lived in segments, blocks, clips, whatever of time.
      Therefore, each day find ways to get out of people's way. Let
      them through as this is their quickening and they are truly not
      aware of the number of eyes that are watching their every move.

      I am sensitive to the cracks in the pavement (details) not the
      conformity of the concrete and so-called ironclad pad(ding
      systems).

      Can you go farther? Farther is further than where I am from.

      Home is that way... follow the line and go back by moving
      forward... where am 'I' going?...going to expose the bad guys to
      a new light.

      Council last night was a confession then a clean step forward
      into the trap of your own guilt. I watched it on television. The
      cycle has come full circle and low and behold it catches the
      same fools again.

      Seriousness comes before correction. Is the ease in which
      something is attained a testiment to the genius at work or the
      cunning of the trapper?

      Entrapment? Is that your defence? Please... show me the trap in
      which you were caught.

      Wrong Distances and Rotten Priest your actions are contrary to
      absolute and pure will of God.... now, shall we have a
      discussion or a demonstration of 'free will'?

      I am individually distinct and I do not need to clothe myself in
      sovernty or society to feel that I am.

      Mantra: Today I shall rise and chanllenge my world in a positive
      direction.

      Fault is not an issue of blame however, the determination to
      unjustly place fault on another is.

      Everyone has issues and not all of them are with God.

      When I got 'the answer' I wanted to read as much as I could
      about everything I could and continue to do so. The egos and
      fools stop learning when they get the answer and thus, know no
      other meaning than their own.

      Gratefully theirs, --Hobbes

      _________________________________________________________________


      HUR
      Thanks to "Dharma Troll" at alt.philosophy.zen forum, I found
      this interesting account of a Buddhist teacher's experience with
      Maharaj:

      Buddhist teacher Jack Kornfield describes his encounter with
      Nisargadatta Maharaj in "The Eightfold Path for the
      Householder," a wonderful set of talks found online at:
      http://cedar.evansville.edu/~mb62/errata/8path.htm

      There's something in us, in our nature, which compels us to
      discover. I remember a very powerful moment with the old guru
      who I studied with, Nisargadatta Maharaj, who taught the way of
      Nisarga Yoga. "Nisarga" means natural. The basic translation of
      his name was "Mr. Natural". He was this 80-year old
      cigarette-smoking man. He had a little cigarette stand. He was
      kind of a combination like Krishnamurti and Fritz Perls. He
      would put you on the hot seat when you came in and ask you about
      your spiritual life.

      One day we were in a room about this big. People were coming in
      and asking questions. Somebody came in and asked a question and
      was a little bit dissatisfied and left. And another person
      raised their hand and said, "Maharaj, what will happen to that
      person who came and asked that question and left? Is it all over
      for them in this life? They didn't stay here. You are a great
      guru, and they weren't interested, and they went home." And he
      twinkled at that moment, he really lit up, and he said, "It's
      too late. Even the fact that they put their foot in this room,
      even if they hadn't asked the question, means that somewhere in
      there there's a seed of really knowing who we are and what this
      life is about. Not what you were taught in elementary school or
      what's on TV or the newspapers, but a deep seed of knowing our
      true nature, that wants to discover; it's like coming home. The
      fact that he just walked in the room means that that seed has
      started to sprout. And no matter if he tries to forget it and
      goes back and gets lost, sooner or later that will manifest in
      awakening.

      ...I'll read you a passage from Nisargadatta Maharaj, the old
      bidi wallah who I studied with in Bombay; wonderful old teacher.
      He sold little Indian cigarettes on the street corner, and he
      was fully enlightened somehow at the same time. He had these
      classes. He died a couple of years ago. He was a wonderful old
      man.

      Someone asks:

      What can truth or reality gain by all our practice?

      He uses truth and love interchangeably. He says:

      "Nothing whatsoever, of course. But it is in the nature of truth
      or love, cosmic consciousness, whatever you want to call it, to
      express itself, to affirm itself, to overcome difficulties. Once
      you've understood that the world is love in action,
      consciousness or love in action, you will look at it quite
      differently. But first your attitude to suffering must change.
      Suffering is primarily a call for attention, which itself is a
      movement of love. More than happiness, love wants growth, the
      widening and deepening of awareness and consciousness and being.
      Whatever prevents that becomes a cause of pain, and love does
      not shirk from pain."

      The Eightfold Path for the Householder: Ten talks by Jack
      Kornfield, transcribed from audio tape
      http://cedar.evansville.edu/~mb62/errata/8path.htm

      Reposted from http://www.egroups.com/group/Nisargadatta

      ____________________________________________________________________

      FROM NO-DOER LIST:
      MARK HOVILA
      "NO EFFORT" VERSUS "INTENSE EFFORT"

      This is in response to a web page written by "One" which says it
      "looks at the 'no effort' approach that is taught by: Papaji,
      Papaji's "ambassadors", Ramesh, Wayne, J. Krishnamurti and the
      intense effort approach taught by Sri Ramana Maharshi and Sri
      Nisargadatta Maharaj." The page can be found at
      http://home.talkcity.com/GaiaWay/infinite_freedom/DISCERNMENT.htm

      I don't think that the "no effort" approach is necessarily in
      conflict with the "intensive effort" approach. This may be
      nothing but a semantic distinction. If you sincerely ask
      yourself "Who Am I?" is this an effort, or a non-effort? Some
      might say it is intensive effort, others might say that it is a
      non-effort. If you are relaxing into being who you really are,
      how can that be termed an effort? Why should you have to make an
      effort to be who you really are? If you think of it as an
      effort, won't you have the attitude that you are trying to get
      something you do not have? Won't it lead to tension, striving,
      end-gaining? Can a state of desireless be attained through
      intense desire?

      I am not too familiar with Papaji, but I am familiar with
      Ramesh's teaching. Yes, he says there is nothing we can do,
      because there is no doer. Is he wrong? I don't hear him saying
      that we must sit around and do nothing. He simply urges us to
      see that everything that appears, including the notion of
      ourselves as a doer, is an appearance in Consciousness, and that
      we are that Consciousness. How is this inquiry any different
      than Ramana's inquiry method using "Who Am I?" The words may be
      different, but fundamentally they are the same. Isn't an equal
      amount of "effort" required? Ramesh just doesn't call it effort,
      that's all.

      There are pitfalls to thinking that the path requires great
      effort and there are pitfalls to thinking that it requires no
      effort. If one thinks it requires great effort, one may
      reinforce the false self, the doer. One may struggle and toil
      and become disappointed when the desired "results" are not
      achieved. If one thinks no effort is required, one may go on as
      before, identified with the bodymind, but convinced that
      everything is hunky-dory, since it is all Consciousness anyway.

      I have in my hands a flyer I just received announcing a "Satsang
      with Rajiv." (Papaji student, I think.) It says: "In finding
      your own Self, no effort is required." You know, it occurs to me
      that the teachers who say no effort is required may be using
      sort of a "bait and switch" tactic. The idea of "no effort" will
      appeal to many people who are not interested in an "intensive
      effort" approach. But if they are sincere, they will soon
      understand that something very intense is required, whether it
      is called "effort" or not.

      __________________________________________________________________________

      from MAHAMUDRA list
      ANTOINE

      Hard to say that my insight is mine. About looking at the world
      with the eyes of Newton, Einstein or Planck, it came to me
      around the age of 14, 21 years ago, in a way that I have been
      able then to teach physics to my classmates, the teacher also
      sitting and without the use of any books. Its cool to flow as
      energy.. From where did come "my" insight, any answer is good,
      it depends mostly of the symbolic model you are using to look at
      this world.

      It also becomes interesting when this "symbolic model" used to
      see the world becomes totally flexible. Like, for example, there
      is only one body, no outside or inside, no above or below.

      _____________________________________________________________________

      from BHAIRAVA list

      M

      SIVANANDA DAILY READING FOR 25 JANUARY

      DESTROY THE ROOTS OF SUFFERING

      Determination and self-reliance are very necessary for success
      in self-realisation. In the Mundaka Upanishad you will find:
      "This atman cannot be obtained by one who is destitute of
      strength, or without earnestness, or by penance without mark.
      But if a wise man strives after it by those means, then his self
      enters into Brahman."

      Fearlessness is an important qualification for the aspirant. You
      should be prepared to renounce your life at any moment. Without
      renunciation of the little sensual life. the eternal spiritual
      life cannot be attained. Every difficulty that comes in the
      spiritual path is an opportunity to grow stronger and to develop
      will-power.

      When you have once decided to take up the spiritual path, stick
      to it at any cost, nay, at the risk of your life. Thou art the
      immortal self. Be bold. Stand up. Gird up your loins. Realise
      the truth. Proclaim it everywhere.

      Wrong thinking is the root cause of human suffering. Cultivate
      right thinking and right action. Think always: "I am the
      immortal Self". This is right thinking. Work unselfishly for the
      poor, but work only in terms of unity, with atma bhava (seeing
      the one Self in all). This is right acting.

      There is no such a thing as sin. Sin is only a mistake. Sin is a
      mental creation. The baby soul must commit some mistakes during
      the process of evolution. Mistakes are your best teachers. Think
      always: "I am pure atman". Then the idea of sin will be blown in
      the air.

      Do not (be content to) say, "Oh it is karma, my karma. It is my
      karma (fate) that has brought me to this". No. Exert. Do tapas
      (penance). Concentrate. Meditate. Purify. Do not be a fatalist.
      Do not yield to inertia. Do not bleat like a lamb. Roar "OM OM
      OM" like a lion.

      Adhere to the daily spiritual routine. Apply yourself with zeal
      and enthusiasm to sadhana (spiritual practice). Become a naistic
      brahmacari (lifelong celibate). Be steady and systematic in your
      yoga abhyasa (practice of yoga).

      Shine in your native, pristine glory. Become a jivanmukta
      (liberated sage). You are the children of immortality and light.
      "TAT TVAM ASI - Thou Art That, my dear children.

      _______________________________________________________________

      from MAHAMUDRA list

      ED ARRONS

      Hello friends,

      (Thanks Christiana, Zoran, Mark, and Terry for your thoughtful
      and extraordinary contributions to this subject.)

      The resonance on this subject, as radical and evolutionary as
      the ideas may be, is quite unusual. This is explained further
      on.

      The posts were responded to in order of time posted, which leads
      to a process for which no name (known by me) exists. Hopefully a
      'picture' of this process will become clear as I proceed.

      With regard to your question, Christiana: "....can you say more
      about your polarization concerns. Is it your experience that one
      needs bodymind signals to stabilize energy poles?"

      I would say so. One needs bodymind signals to stabilize energy
      poles often enough in everyday living to be concerned. This is
      especially true with the process in question.

      As I see it now, polarization becomes possible when the 'field'
      vitality of bodymind signals is minimal. The energy remains
      within the self, doesn't radiate to others as healthful or
      constructive experience. Polar fixation (mental or physical)
      might occur when the individual is in an isolated condition,
      such as in spending excessive time on the internet, being
      deprived of vital exchange of bodymind signals with others. The
      polarization may manifest as localized sensuality and limitation
      of bodymind radiance.

      I would think polarization is potentially endemic in the use of
      all communication technology, as its use reduces the flow and
      exchange of bodymind signals. It suggests a danger for
      individual and social disintegration, a condition which is
      already widespread.

      The alternative "process" is an attempt to bypass that danger.
      This is why 'local' face to face experience is encouraged, as
      Christiana has encouraged Mark. The Internet version of the
      process needs much thoughtful dialogue and bodymind radiance.

      Also there needs to be sufficient knowing of the other person's
      radiant "signature", as is suggested in dialogue, to establish
      Presence; or the initial connection may give way to polarization
      (manifest as localized sensuality and limitation of bodymind
      radiance).

      Zoran, you asked: "Can I be with another while sitting at the
      computer readin/writing email?"

      I would agree empatically with Christiana's emphatic *yes*, if
      the process is approached thoughtfully and integrally.

      When Christiana suggested it was in "real time", I'm sure she
      meant the actual process was executed in chat mode.

      And yes, a forum has been set up to explore this process under
      the name of StillPoint Dialog. But the description needs to be
      updated.

      ________________________________________________________

      from THE WAY STATION list

      ANDREW MACNAB

      I've always loved friends of the Way
      Always held them dear
      Meeting a stranger with silent springs
      Greeting a guest talking zen
      Talking about mysteries on a moonlit night
      Searching for truth until dawn
      When the tracks of our inventions disappear
      And we see who we really are

      Cold Mountain

      _____________________________________________________________________

      from THE WAY STATION list

      E.J. LIGHT


      Greetings Community,

      Have you considered that your effort IS What-IS. It IS Truth. In
      fact the course you do is the very course that 99.99% of all
      Seekers take in their Quest of Unfolding Awakening. But they, as
      your efforts, overlook or treat it as insignificant the element
      of conditioned ideas and images and meanings. Consequently very
      few Truly start Awakening because they do not address this
      element of conditioning adequately, and it is not stressed by
      those wonderful Awakened East Indians and Asians in their
      Mission to Help us Sleeping Westerners. This is not to slight
      the efforts of these great Sages in the least, it is that they
      have no way of Realizing what stranglehold that conditioning has
      on the Sleeping Western World unless they have lived here an
      extended time. Hence, Westerners tend to *re-condition*
      themselves to this new *practice* and *think* that they have
      discarded the necessary conditioned thinking when all they did
      was substitute one conditioned way of thinking for another.

      These great Sages from the East strike out on a Mission IN
      Compassion to Help the Western Slumbering World. When they get
      here they are a bit dumbfounded at the lack Openness and Honesty
      us Westerners are so immersed in, not only outwardly with others
      but also with themselves. Most set up their organization in the
      hopes that the sheer dedication to the practice will perhaps
      help cleanse the toxins from our perception. They are successful
      in gathering followers, but mostly they leave this physical
      plane knowingly unsuccessful in their primary Mission of Helping
      to Awaken the Western World. My statements here apply to the
      99.99% as a general statement and not to the .01% who actually
      DO start Awakening due to the efforts of these practices. I have
      even seen Wise Teachers IN this Mission leave the organization
      because they saw that the practice was not accomplishing the
      Mission.

      My question still is how could one Openly and Honestly Look at
      oneself in the Mirror of Truth UNLESS ALL conditioned notions
      are discarded ? If we Look at ourselves with the rose-colored
      glasses of conditioned notions, would our Observations not be
      tainted by the color of the glasses ? Would the mind not have to
      be Silent of all arising conditioned thoughts and memories FIRST
      ? Or are our conditioned notions of minor concern ?

      We are conditioned to wear all sorts of masks not only to
      present ourselves to others but also to ourselves. We *believe*
      the fantasies that we establish about ourselves and so we become
      those fantasies. And in most cases we will fight to the death
      that it is not a fantasy. Siddhartha did indicate that we would
      have a very hard time getting rid of the Causes of our
      Suffering.
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