Tuesday-Wednesday January 23-24
- Hello Subscribers,
This issue of the highlights includes some cool posts from other
lists that have opened recently. I've noted the ones from other
suchness of now
exactly as it is
suchness of now?
let's call the whole thing off!
i was forever trying to understand
how are we all one?
trying to merge all the parts
left me a part
someone with two legs can't understand these things
that's why it's called spirituality
UARLOVE AND DAN BERKOW
You can read a comparison of the "no effort, no choice" approach
taught by: Papaji (Poonjaji) and his ambassadors and J.
Krishnamurti including the "everything is a functioning of the
totality" fatalism taught by Ramesh and Wayne verses the intense
continuous effort approach taught by: Sri Ramana Maharshi and
Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj by clicking:
Thank you for sharing this page with us.
It is a clear presentation of a
helpful point of view.
I wonder whether there may be
an integration of seemingly
divergent approaches possible
The enquiry suggested by Ramana and
the no effort approach you cite in the
teaching of Krishnamurti and
Ramesh may well overlap.
For example, at any time that I am looking
to see if I am doing nothing, by so looking
I am doing something. Any time I think
to myself, "K. said to do nothing, so this
is okay right now, I'm doing nothing", this,
in fact, is doing something. If I notice this,
then there is inquiry into compulsive patterns
of thought around "I".
So, to really observe whether there is
no doing occurring, ends up being
deep inquiry into the "observer".
Many of Krishnamurti's teachings referenced
looking deeply into the "observer" ...
this seems very much the enquiry into
self-nature given by Ramana.
The statements you make about charging
money seem rather black and white, either-or.
There may be gradations -- for example,
a distinction can be made between
one who charges to pay for plane fare
and a place to talk to people vs. someone
who charges exorbitantly to furnish a
luxurious lifestyle. Also, if the first
person also gives free teachings on
occasion, that would be different than
one who never offers free teachings.
Your presentation about the teaching of
"Self never acts" is clear.
The key as seen here is that once this
teaching becomes something to
look into, there already is an "I"
wanting to look into it. Once there
is the thought, "Am I seeing a world
or not seeing a world?", that thought
already is "being seen" ...
So, the reality of "Self never acts" or
"no world is seen" can never be
given as a teaching, as in providing
the statement "no world is seen"...
for in construing the teaching,
and hearing it, there is the
teaching being heard as a teaching...
I don't normally pass on this type of warning but it was passed
on to me by a very reliable source.... Everyone is always
sending warnings about viruses, people trying to drug you in the
street, mobile phone scams - the list goes on and on. I don't
ever forward any of these warnings, but this one seems like a
real one and I want to share it:
If a man comes to your front door and says he is conducting a
survey and asks you to show him your boobs, DO NOT show him your
boobs. This is a scam and he is only trying to see your boobs.
PLEASE READ and forward to warn others.
You're making it much more difficult for me to conduct my survey.
It is NOT a scam, it is serious work.
Was that you?????
...philosophy is the process of unveiling the question beneath the
all questions will be answered
"Tao in the world is like streams following into the sea."
the diamond at the heart of all experience
is a precious jewel of indescribable beauty
it can be worshipped, adored and loved
but not possessed by any single creature
nor ensnared by any means we possess
including all that is language and all that is art
seated at the absolute center and beginning
it is infinitely small and cannot be seen with the eye
it remains eternally lost in the depths before time
residing outside of all that is complete and ending
it is so large that it cannot be grasped or understood
it presence is infinitely beyond the reach of imagination
when this diamond shatters the universe unfolds
and the one who are now many must be named
once the many of been perceived and named
attempts at further discrimination result in blindness
the mind is an arrow that travels far only to pierce itself
ultimately creating the silence it so strenuously avoids
the beginning of all truth is a matter of the mystic mind
the end of all wisdom is a concern of the sacred heart
to travel far or seek deeply the end result is the same
all journeys end in their beginning, begin in their ending
with the discovery of the beloved, the other, the lover
the holy jewel, the precious diamond, the perfect desire
beyond the mystic mind at the center of the sacred heart
seek the beloved with an empty mind
love the beloved with a pure heart
and all questions will be answered
including all that is art and language
not to be ensnared with any gifts we receive
the beloved mother and compassionate father of all
we can know it by worship, adoration and love
it is the precious jewel beyond price and value
it is the diamond at the heart of all that is
mark christopher valentine
(January 23, 2000)
The master that plans to trick his enemy into building the
masters empire does not plan for his enemy's victory nor does he
know how the vitory is attained.
The Christian God is a forged God that defends itself unlike any
other and unlike the false gods that need the hired defences.
Life is lived in segments, blocks, clips, whatever of time.
Therefore, each day find ways to get out of people's way. Let
them through as this is their quickening and they are truly not
aware of the number of eyes that are watching their every move.
I am sensitive to the cracks in the pavement (details) not the
conformity of the concrete and so-called ironclad pad(ding
Can you go farther? Farther is further than where I am from.
Home is that way... follow the line and go back by moving
forward... where am 'I' going?...going to expose the bad guys to
a new light.
Council last night was a confession then a clean step forward
into the trap of your own guilt. I watched it on television. The
cycle has come full circle and low and behold it catches the
same fools again.
Seriousness comes before correction. Is the ease in which
something is attained a testiment to the genius at work or the
cunning of the trapper?
Entrapment? Is that your defence? Please... show me the trap in
which you were caught.
Wrong Distances and Rotten Priest your actions are contrary to
absolute and pure will of God.... now, shall we have a
discussion or a demonstration of 'free will'?
I am individually distinct and I do not need to clothe myself in
sovernty or society to feel that I am.
Mantra: Today I shall rise and chanllenge my world in a positive
Fault is not an issue of blame however, the determination to
unjustly place fault on another is.
Everyone has issues and not all of them are with God.
When I got 'the answer' I wanted to read as much as I could
about everything I could and continue to do so. The egos and
fools stop learning when they get the answer and thus, know no
other meaning than their own.
Gratefully theirs, --Hobbes
Thanks to "Dharma Troll" at alt.philosophy.zen forum, I found
this interesting account of a Buddhist teacher's experience with
Buddhist teacher Jack Kornfield describes his encounter with
Nisargadatta Maharaj in "The Eightfold Path for the
Householder," a wonderful set of talks found online at:
There's something in us, in our nature, which compels us to
discover. I remember a very powerful moment with the old guru
who I studied with, Nisargadatta Maharaj, who taught the way of
Nisarga Yoga. "Nisarga" means natural. The basic translation of
his name was "Mr. Natural". He was this 80-year old
cigarette-smoking man. He had a little cigarette stand. He was
kind of a combination like Krishnamurti and Fritz Perls. He
would put you on the hot seat when you came in and ask you about
your spiritual life.
One day we were in a room about this big. People were coming in
and asking questions. Somebody came in and asked a question and
was a little bit dissatisfied and left. And another person
raised their hand and said, "Maharaj, what will happen to that
person who came and asked that question and left? Is it all over
for them in this life? They didn't stay here. You are a great
guru, and they weren't interested, and they went home." And he
twinkled at that moment, he really lit up, and he said, "It's
too late. Even the fact that they put their foot in this room,
even if they hadn't asked the question, means that somewhere in
there there's a seed of really knowing who we are and what this
life is about. Not what you were taught in elementary school or
what's on TV or the newspapers, but a deep seed of knowing our
true nature, that wants to discover; it's like coming home. The
fact that he just walked in the room means that that seed has
started to sprout. And no matter if he tries to forget it and
goes back and gets lost, sooner or later that will manifest in
...I'll read you a passage from Nisargadatta Maharaj, the old
bidi wallah who I studied with in Bombay; wonderful old teacher.
He sold little Indian cigarettes on the street corner, and he
was fully enlightened somehow at the same time. He had these
classes. He died a couple of years ago. He was a wonderful old
What can truth or reality gain by all our practice?
He uses truth and love interchangeably. He says:
"Nothing whatsoever, of course. But it is in the nature of truth
or love, cosmic consciousness, whatever you want to call it, to
express itself, to affirm itself, to overcome difficulties. Once
you've understood that the world is love in action,
consciousness or love in action, you will look at it quite
differently. But first your attitude to suffering must change.
Suffering is primarily a call for attention, which itself is a
movement of love. More than happiness, love wants growth, the
widening and deepening of awareness and consciousness and being.
Whatever prevents that becomes a cause of pain, and love does
not shirk from pain."
The Eightfold Path for the Householder: Ten talks by Jack
Kornfield, transcribed from audio tape
Reposted from http://www.egroups.com/group/Nisargadatta
FROM NO-DOER LIST:
"NO EFFORT" VERSUS "INTENSE EFFORT"
This is in response to a web page written by "One" which says it
"looks at the 'no effort' approach that is taught by: Papaji,
Papaji's "ambassadors", Ramesh, Wayne, J. Krishnamurti and the
intense effort approach taught by Sri Ramana Maharshi and Sri
Nisargadatta Maharaj." The page can be found at
I don't think that the "no effort" approach is necessarily in
conflict with the "intensive effort" approach. This may be
nothing but a semantic distinction. If you sincerely ask
yourself "Who Am I?" is this an effort, or a non-effort? Some
might say it is intensive effort, others might say that it is a
non-effort. If you are relaxing into being who you really are,
how can that be termed an effort? Why should you have to make an
effort to be who you really are? If you think of it as an
effort, won't you have the attitude that you are trying to get
something you do not have? Won't it lead to tension, striving,
end-gaining? Can a state of desireless be attained through
I am not too familiar with Papaji, but I am familiar with
Ramesh's teaching. Yes, he says there is nothing we can do,
because there is no doer. Is he wrong? I don't hear him saying
that we must sit around and do nothing. He simply urges us to
see that everything that appears, including the notion of
ourselves as a doer, is an appearance in Consciousness, and that
we are that Consciousness. How is this inquiry any different
than Ramana's inquiry method using "Who Am I?" The words may be
different, but fundamentally they are the same. Isn't an equal
amount of "effort" required? Ramesh just doesn't call it effort,
There are pitfalls to thinking that the path requires great
effort and there are pitfalls to thinking that it requires no
effort. If one thinks it requires great effort, one may
reinforce the false self, the doer. One may struggle and toil
and become disappointed when the desired "results" are not
achieved. If one thinks no effort is required, one may go on as
before, identified with the bodymind, but convinced that
everything is hunky-dory, since it is all Consciousness anyway.
I have in my hands a flyer I just received announcing a "Satsang
with Rajiv." (Papaji student, I think.) It says: "In finding
your own Self, no effort is required." You know, it occurs to me
that the teachers who say no effort is required may be using
sort of a "bait and switch" tactic. The idea of "no effort" will
appeal to many people who are not interested in an "intensive
effort" approach. But if they are sincere, they will soon
understand that something very intense is required, whether it
is called "effort" or not.
from MAHAMUDRA list
Hard to say that my insight is mine. About looking at the world
with the eyes of Newton, Einstein or Planck, it came to me
around the age of 14, 21 years ago, in a way that I have been
able then to teach physics to my classmates, the teacher also
sitting and without the use of any books. Its cool to flow as
energy.. From where did come "my" insight, any answer is good,
it depends mostly of the symbolic model you are using to look at
It also becomes interesting when this "symbolic model" used to
see the world becomes totally flexible. Like, for example, there
is only one body, no outside or inside, no above or below.
from BHAIRAVA list
SIVANANDA DAILY READING FOR 25 JANUARY
DESTROY THE ROOTS OF SUFFERING
Determination and self-reliance are very necessary for success
in self-realisation. In the Mundaka Upanishad you will find:
"This atman cannot be obtained by one who is destitute of
strength, or without earnestness, or by penance without mark.
But if a wise man strives after it by those means, then his self
enters into Brahman."
Fearlessness is an important qualification for the aspirant. You
should be prepared to renounce your life at any moment. Without
renunciation of the little sensual life. the eternal spiritual
life cannot be attained. Every difficulty that comes in the
spiritual path is an opportunity to grow stronger and to develop
When you have once decided to take up the spiritual path, stick
to it at any cost, nay, at the risk of your life. Thou art the
immortal self. Be bold. Stand up. Gird up your loins. Realise
the truth. Proclaim it everywhere.
Wrong thinking is the root cause of human suffering. Cultivate
right thinking and right action. Think always: "I am the
immortal Self". This is right thinking. Work unselfishly for the
poor, but work only in terms of unity, with atma bhava (seeing
the one Self in all). This is right acting.
There is no such a thing as sin. Sin is only a mistake. Sin is a
mental creation. The baby soul must commit some mistakes during
the process of evolution. Mistakes are your best teachers. Think
always: "I am pure atman". Then the idea of sin will be blown in
Do not (be content to) say, "Oh it is karma, my karma. It is my
karma (fate) that has brought me to this". No. Exert. Do tapas
(penance). Concentrate. Meditate. Purify. Do not be a fatalist.
Do not yield to inertia. Do not bleat like a lamb. Roar "OM OM
OM" like a lion.
Adhere to the daily spiritual routine. Apply yourself with zeal
and enthusiasm to sadhana (spiritual practice). Become a naistic
brahmacari (lifelong celibate). Be steady and systematic in your
yoga abhyasa (practice of yoga).
Shine in your native, pristine glory. Become a jivanmukta
(liberated sage). You are the children of immortality and light.
"TAT TVAM ASI - Thou Art That, my dear children.
from MAHAMUDRA list
(Thanks Christiana, Zoran, Mark, and Terry for your thoughtful
and extraordinary contributions to this subject.)
The resonance on this subject, as radical and evolutionary as
the ideas may be, is quite unusual. This is explained further
The posts were responded to in order of time posted, which leads
to a process for which no name (known by me) exists. Hopefully a
'picture' of this process will become clear as I proceed.
With regard to your question, Christiana: "....can you say more
about your polarization concerns. Is it your experience that one
needs bodymind signals to stabilize energy poles?"
I would say so. One needs bodymind signals to stabilize energy
poles often enough in everyday living to be concerned. This is
especially true with the process in question.
As I see it now, polarization becomes possible when the 'field'
vitality of bodymind signals is minimal. The energy remains
within the self, doesn't radiate to others as healthful or
constructive experience. Polar fixation (mental or physical)
might occur when the individual is in an isolated condition,
such as in spending excessive time on the internet, being
deprived of vital exchange of bodymind signals with others. The
polarization may manifest as localized sensuality and limitation
of bodymind radiance.
I would think polarization is potentially endemic in the use of
all communication technology, as its use reduces the flow and
exchange of bodymind signals. It suggests a danger for
individual and social disintegration, a condition which is
The alternative "process" is an attempt to bypass that danger.
This is why 'local' face to face experience is encouraged, as
Christiana has encouraged Mark. The Internet version of the
process needs much thoughtful dialogue and bodymind radiance.
Also there needs to be sufficient knowing of the other person's
radiant "signature", as is suggested in dialogue, to establish
Presence; or the initial connection may give way to polarization
(manifest as localized sensuality and limitation of bodymind
Zoran, you asked: "Can I be with another while sitting at the
computer readin/writing email?"
I would agree empatically with Christiana's emphatic *yes*, if
the process is approached thoughtfully and integrally.
When Christiana suggested it was in "real time", I'm sure she
meant the actual process was executed in chat mode.
And yes, a forum has been set up to explore this process under
the name of StillPoint Dialog. But the description needs to be
from THE WAY STATION list
I've always loved friends of the Way
Always held them dear
Meeting a stranger with silent springs
Greeting a guest talking zen
Talking about mysteries on a moonlit night
Searching for truth until dawn
When the tracks of our inventions disappear
And we see who we really are
from THE WAY STATION list
Have you considered that your effort IS What-IS. It IS Truth. In
fact the course you do is the very course that 99.99% of all
Seekers take in their Quest of Unfolding Awakening. But they, as
your efforts, overlook or treat it as insignificant the element
of conditioned ideas and images and meanings. Consequently very
few Truly start Awakening because they do not address this
element of conditioning adequately, and it is not stressed by
those wonderful Awakened East Indians and Asians in their
Mission to Help us Sleeping Westerners. This is not to slight
the efforts of these great Sages in the least, it is that they
have no way of Realizing what stranglehold that conditioning has
on the Sleeping Western World unless they have lived here an
extended time. Hence, Westerners tend to *re-condition*
themselves to this new *practice* and *think* that they have
discarded the necessary conditioned thinking when all they did
was substitute one conditioned way of thinking for another.
These great Sages from the East strike out on a Mission IN
Compassion to Help the Western Slumbering World. When they get
here they are a bit dumbfounded at the lack Openness and Honesty
us Westerners are so immersed in, not only outwardly with others
but also with themselves. Most set up their organization in the
hopes that the sheer dedication to the practice will perhaps
help cleanse the toxins from our perception. They are successful
in gathering followers, but mostly they leave this physical
plane knowingly unsuccessful in their primary Mission of Helping
to Awaken the Western World. My statements here apply to the
99.99% as a general statement and not to the .01% who actually
DO start Awakening due to the efforts of these practices. I have
even seen Wise Teachers IN this Mission leave the organization
because they saw that the practice was not accomplishing the
My question still is how could one Openly and Honestly Look at
oneself in the Mirror of Truth UNLESS ALL conditioned notions
are discarded ? If we Look at ourselves with the rose-colored
glasses of conditioned notions, would our Observations not be
tainted by the color of the glasses ? Would the mind not have to
be Silent of all arising conditioned thoughts and memories FIRST
? Or are our conditioned notions of minor concern ?
We are conditioned to wear all sorts of masks not only to
present ourselves to others but also to ourselves. We *believe*
the fantasies that we establish about ourselves and so we become
those fantasies. And in most cases we will fight to the death
that it is not a fantasy. Siddhartha did indicate that we would
have a very hard time getting rid of the Causes of our