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Digest: July 26

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  • umbada@xx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxx)
    Hello. This is the Digest of posts dated Monday, July 26. It is the best from the Nonduality Salon mailing list. Perhaps someone can help me. I copy and
    Message 1 of 1 , Jul 27, 1999
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      Hello. This is the Digest of posts dated Monday, July 26. It
      is the 'best' from the Nonduality Salon mailing list.

      Perhaps someone can help me. I copy and paste to create this
      Digest. Then I 'straighten out' the uneven lines. However,
      the lines still come out uneven or 'choppy' once the post
      has been mailed. I don't know how it appears to the reader,
      but that's how it appears to me.

      I'm using Netscape Communicator for my mail. Any
      suggestions? Thank you.



      This is an excerpt from an exchange between Dan and Gene. It
      incorporates three days of dialogue, hence the 'he' says,
      'he' said, 'he' had said:

      Dan said:

      The only relevant teaching is from one's Self IMO, or from
      God as
      simultaneously immanent and transcendent, said another way.
      One's Self as Self *is* the "instruction," the "teaching,"
      the "how" to which you refer. In other words, there is no
      "how" to any of this, simply pure spontaneous manifestation
      of Self within Self via Self. The manifestation, termed
      Maya by Hindus, is none other than Self-activity. The
      instruction to which you refer seems to me to be the
      ever-increasing recognition of Maya as Self-activity.

      Gene said:

      Yes, that is one way to put it. I hesistate to say it, but
      it has already occured. (We) view or experience, our entire
      spectrum of 'possibility' from our present station; as
      advised by ourselves that we are becoming.

      Gene had said:

      In any event, as we record our experiences, there arises
      evidence that our 'awakening' is arranged; that we are
      indeed being prompted to 'understand' and to 'know'.

      And Dan had said:

      Yes, this also seems significant to me.
      What is not expressed is what is not known.

      And Gene had said:

      In my view, the 'nondual experience' is had, upon the silent
      admission that there is indeed 'something' which begins a
      dialog or
      conversation with us, encouraging and teaching, leading us
      to grapple with the issues and illusions which are in
      effect, classroom materials for the aspiring student.

      And Dan had responded:

      "Nondual" to me says student-teacher with no gap between.
      reversal, play with words, instruction that is play.

      And Gene responds:

      Yes... as far as it goes. I am probably stretching something
      here. Please bear with me.

      Now Gene had said:

      I point to the 'Guru-function', which 'masqeuerades' as
      'Maya'. The
      nondual experience admits the Guru. Only later, could the
      student 'say' that 'there is no Guru' and refer to 'Maya' as
      meaningless data-display, sans interpretation.

      To which Dan had responded:

      I don't see Maya as meaningless, I see it as the play of the
      Divine One,
      the very body of this One. You speak of befores and afters
      here, yet
      "nondual" to me says "no before no after."

      Now Gene says:

      Okay, now I am on the border of saying something. 'Nondual'
      says to me... that the apparency of Maya is a gradient-rich
      display, which we observe as we move. The recession of
      objects of 'Maya' denotes our movement... into the
      (apparent) future, as we face our own past. In other
      words... we are moving forward while facing backwards,
      viewing a recession of apparent objects. Entropy is apparent
      in this backward view. I do not claim that this is 'actual'
      but rather apparent. Still, such data is relevant, and as
      you say, is not meaningless. Perhaps it offers a clue to
      something, like maybe why we face backwards...

      Dan had said:

      Perhaps an increasing awareness of "no before no after," yet
      in this increasing awareness, there is always One, birthing
      itself, speaking to itself. All equally involved in this
      divine play of Being. Speaking for myself, I find nothing
      added to this by calling it a "Guru-function." Again,
      speaking for myself, I conceptualize
      "direct involvement in One," although I can see how some
      might benefit from conceptualizing "the Guru is bestowing
      blessings and teachings on me." I can certainly accept that
      this conceptualization is one you've found useful, and I'm
      respectful of that.

      To which Gene says:

      Welllll.... that is not exactly what I meant. I am heartened
      by your
      reporting of your honest experience; I have similar reports
      of such, but
      that is not what I was/am getting at.

      For Gene had said:

      That such may be said 'later', post-experience, may lead the
      (new) reader to assume that there is no 'parent'. This
      itself may be useful, leading to seeing no 'external or
      separate' parent or pedagogue, and thus pointing to self as
      parent. Self as parent ("none-other") will eventually fade
      as reality, leaving only the primary relationship of

      You see, Dan had said:

      The primary relationship has been conceptualized in several
      ways of
      which I am aware, including Shiva/Shakti, Host/guest,
      God/person, Goddess/person, Gods/person, Mother/child,
      Father/son, Guide/friend, Healer/healed, One/many and you're
      saying, apparently, that Guru/student works best for you.
      The important thing here, for me, is to understand what is
      occurring at the boundary that is the basis of
      relationship. That understanding seems the critical thing,
      the understanding that there *is* relationship and seeing
      what it is and how it is.

      To which Gene says:

      Yes, primary relationship does imply 'other', does it not?
      other... apparent as at least an outphased (in relation to
      me) version of myself, if not an actual other. This is a
      basic question, yes?

      For Gene had said:

      Even the concept of separation will fade, far beyond
      questions of
      'separate/non-separate'. What I cannot deny is the leading,
      encouraging of 'not-me', that which is 'greater' and which
      is teaching me. I stand comfortably 'next to' that which I
      speak of; I am safe there; the only 'danger' comes from any
      tendency to identify as 'that'.

      And Dan had said:

      The main thing I hear in this is that you are comfortable,
      you are safe,
      and your direction is growth. That sounds good, as I would
      wish this for All. A question regarding your last
      assertion: If "that" alone is, then who is there to
      identify with "that"?

      To which Gene responds:

      Yes, that is the classical question. Can it be answered?
      Perhaps the
      concept of the outphased self will fill the bill here,
      perhaps there is
      something else.


      Tomas shared and challenged:

      I've been thinking about the issue of nonduality and
      education, on and off, for many years. Recently this has
      become an immediate consideration. For the past year I've
      been working for a social services organization that has
      been helping elementary school systems get setup with
      Technology centers (computers and internet..etc). My job has
      been to help the teachers and students integrate the
      technology into their curriculum. What seems to be the
      common vision or hope for such an integration is the
      possibility to expand the independence of the students
      (greater choice in the own studies via internet)and somehow
      be involved in the nurturing of a greater knowledge base.

      It's been interesting to see a little bit of this school
      system at work- in the process i've thought about this
      question of education and what it really means.

      It occurred to me at some point- Why am I not expressing
      myself in this job? Why am I holding back from taking risks
      and experimenting?

      Why live fearing that I'll be fired? why live holding onto
      What am I getting from this hesitation, this fear, and the
      Job "victim" game it creates?

      In the process of coming to terms with this, I have begun
      gravitating toward a deeper consideration of this issue of
      education and toward a deeper involvement with it.

      It's made me reflect and also appreciate the work that was
      started by
      teachers such as J.Krishnamurti. He was particularly
      involved in the
      education arena and seemed to have really led the way in a
      deep nondual
      consideration of education.

      In a recent conversation I had with a friend, we considered
      the growth in awakenings happening in our society and
      sensing that the time is becoming ripe for an impact at the
      level of the educational process in our society. This seems
      to be the inevitable- that we begin to discuss what
      education is really about and how our children are being

      In my current position, as it will be more the case in
      general, this
      consideration must take note of the fact of our technology
      (specifically, the Internet).

      I've had my own Ideas on this subject but I want to hold it
      back for now. My thought in writing this was to begin some
      conversation going, see what everyone thinks of as the
      deepest meaning of education and how it can be carried out.

      In discussing this issue (education and internet) with Scott
      Morrison (a
      teacher listed in the realizers list) he expressed the
      interest in starting a new school founded in awakening. We
      began discussing some ideas about using the internet as a
      self-exploration tool- which means a more focused
      organization of information by way of something like the
      directory structures (Scott is involved in the Open
      directory project)

      In a recent development, my director wanted me to start
      working with a
      difficult Highschool group (from the same poor school
      district) She said she could no longer oversee them but was
      concerned about how they are spending their time. She's
      interested in getting them to spend more time using english.
      This afforded me and interesting opportunity to experiment.
      I'll talk about this later.

      To get the ball rolling- I'm presenting the following

      1- what is the meaning of true education? how should the
      child be taught? What is being done currently?

      2- How can current technology participate in supporting the
      process of true education? (How can the internet?)


      Kristie responded to Tomas statement:

      Good, good topic! The Summerhill school in England had a
      simple "mission
      statement" re education: to teach their students the
      capacity to be happy and work joyfully....Other pedagogues
      and "philosophers" that speak of education as related to the
      development of consciousness and the spiritual needs of the
      child include:

      Joseph Chilton Pierce
      John Holt
      The Summerhill School
      Rudolph Steiner (Waldorf Schools)
      Piaget - the development of moral consciousness
      Book "Whole Child, Whole Parent"


      And regarding Tomas' 'Nonduality and Education topic, Ivan

      To educate a child is to able him to be
      without self-image. In any relation, one image brings forth
      another image (from the other, in relation). To every
      there is the correspondent image. So, proper education
      is the ability relate without self-image with the pupil --
      other words, the perfect teacher is the whole teacher. Now,
      in our day to day schools, the question would be: -- how to
      give information without doing much harm, or with minimum

      Sorry for the aparent simplicity....


      And Dan responds to Tomas:

      Tomas asked:

      1- what is the meaning of true education? how should the
      child be taught? What is being done currently?

      Dan responds:

      If your idea of "true education" is so radical it has no
      application to
      society, then the child may be hurt by it when needing to
      deal with the
      society, find employment, and have relationships. So
      education needs to
      come from the big picture that can nurture creativity and
      awareness while dealing clearly with society as it is
      (including its prejudices, demands, tensions).

      Tomas also asked:

      2- How can current technology participate in supporting the
      process of true education? (How can the internet?)

      Dan responds:

      The internet can best be used if it leads to real-life give
      and take with others who are phyiscally present. This would
      be ideal, because the internet tends to create its own
      separate reality. It can sometimes be an artificial way to
      replace real life give and take, real life relationship
      skills (such as reading nonverbal language, using senses
      other than sight, communication other than words).


      Ivan joins Gene and someone else, in this melding by Glo:

      Says Ivan:

      How can something be so completely unknowable
      and so real at the same time......the mind shrinks away from
      all thoughts, and the heart is filled with this almoust

      Says Gene:

      The painful passion is relieved by the mind-shattering roar
      the Dragon of Eden, who then becomes the only real thing, so
      real as you
      say... mind is blasted to nothingness, by the fire of the
      breath of the
      Dragon, whose triumphant roar is all that there is... so
      pure is the flame, that there is no smoke, no ash, only
      light... only light...

      Now bring on the ever-watchful Glo:

      These two quotes together..wow. The unknowing and then
      fire..combustion. Brings to mind so strongly this fragment
      from a
      larger poem, Poesia, by Neruda. You guys have to hear this..
      like you wrote it. Glo

      I didn't know what to say, my mouth
      could not speak,
      my eyes could not see
      and something ignited in my soul,
      fever or unremembered wings
      and I went my own way,
      deciphering that burning fire
      and I wrote the first bare line,
      bare, without substance, pure
      pure wisdom
      of one who knows nothing,
      and suddenly I saw
      the heavens
      unfastened and open.


      Offerings from Xan:


      Letting the mind
      drop away


      I am asleep and in a dream,
      a complex dream
      of people, places, and things,
      of time, of power and beauty
      and of their gain and loss.

      Then I dream someone shows up
      saying, "Is this all you've known so far?"

      In my "huh?" I notice
      there is an atmosphere
      within which I have been
      immersed, lost
      in all these stories,
      an atmosphere of myself
      as dreamer.

      I dream that I am
      waking up from dreaming,
      the stories change in flavor
      and the characters too.

      Now I dream


      This knowing is too simple
      for rules and regulations.

      This master too intimate
      for anyone to guess.

      This joy is too unexpected
      to fit into my theology.

      This vastness too sweet
      to be named by my mind.

      This shock of deep knowing
      cannot be managed.

      This grace too surprising
      All walls falling down.

      In the mood for a little controversy? Petros offered this
      quote from L. Ron Hubbard of Scientology fame. Scientology
      has been implicated in unsavory activities over the years.
      So have Rajneesh, Da Free John and others. I don't think
      it's my job to protect anyone from the unsavory. I'd rather
      keep everything in the open. So here's a number from L. Ron:

      "And I never forget I'm handling an individual. I'm not
      'people,' ever. I'm handling you and you and you and you.
      Because you
      are truth. I don't care what you look at as truth to begin
      with or what
      you will look at as truth at the end of the line. If there's
      any truth
      to be found, you're it. If there's any truth to be known,
      it'll be you
      who know it. And beyond that and outside of it, there isn't
      truth." -- The Road to Truth

      "Never compromise with your own reality."
      -- The Code of Honor, Scio 0-8


      Petros mentioned an idea based on Scientology teachings, and
      aleks had a little fun with it:

      Petros declared:

      I am also conducting research on a variation of the
      electropsychometer which I may call the Realization Meter or
      something like that, which will enable for the first time
      scientific validation of Self-Realization.

      aleks suggested:

      this is really interesting, in a sci fi sort of way. you
      could build all this machinery and electronics, but why not
      start with a basic test like this: get a bowl of cornflakes,
      granola or some other fruitarian fare. fill the bowl
      almost to the brim with a mixture of soy milk and grains and
      place it *directly* on top of the devotee's head. note
      that their spine must be straight (as is correct yoga
      posture) and the devotee should be watching the breath.
      then have them start doing the ramana "who am i " bit. i
      would say that when the bowl of cornflakes falls off their
      head, and they continue to smile like the unknowing sots
      that we all *are* :) --milk running down their face and all
      over their new mala from bodhi tree and even onto their
      crisp copy of "I am that" they are realized.

      offered in love and jest
      no harm intended,


      Someone called Petros the Marco Polo of nonduality. Here is
      another of Petros' rare spices:

      "Realization of the Absolute
      is simple. Our thoughts
      and concepts make it
      seem difficult."

      "You have to want Realization
      of the Self more than your life,
      because that's what it is --
      more than your life."

      "The same force makes
      both saint and sinner.
      The same force animates
      both love and hate."

      The above quotes are from a lovely little book called
      "Reflections," first published in 1969. Master
      Subramuniyaswami wrote a bunch of these small booklets in
      the late sixties and early seventies and they consist of his
      text alternating with little photos of children in India,
      old people, meditators, etc. Most recently Gurudeva, as he
      is now called, wrote the huge volumes _Dancing with Siva_,
      _Merging with Siva_, and _Loving Ganesha_, and he also
      published _Hinduism Today_. These recent works are more
      traditionally 'religious' and much less insightful in my
      opinion. Gurudev is an American who started this life as a
      dancer at the San Francisco ballet company until, at the age
      of twenty, he felt called to renounce worldly life and
      undertake a pilgrimage to Sri Lanka. In 1949 he was
      ordained by Jnaniguru Yoganathan. He is now head of the
      Saiva Siddhantha Church,headquartered in Hawaii, which he
      founded in 1949. It was the first Hindu sect founded by and
      primarily for Westerners.

      I had the rare privilege of meeting Sri Gurudeva at a
      booksigning for
      _Merging with Siva_ at the Bodhi Tree in L.A. a couple of
      weeks ago. He was sitting at the front of the room signing
      books for people in line, and when I got up to him I kneeled
      on one knee so I could hand him a book to sign. I expressed
      admiration for the old booklets' simplicity and
      insightfulness, and asked as tactfully as I could why he
      felt it was necessary to take on all of Hinduism's ritualism
      and outward appearance -- robes, beads, etc. "If you have
      the leaves, why not have the roots too?" He said.
      "Hmm. I guess it's all God's will either way." (Petros.)
      "Yes I suppose you could put it that way!"

      I sort of got the feeling we were talking past each other.
      Anyway, here's his website.


      You'll recall that Gene earlier spoke:

      Okay, now I am on the border of saying something. 'Nondual'
      says to me... that the apparency of Maya is a gradient-rich
      display, which we observe as we move. The recession of
      objects of 'Maya' denotes our movement... into the
      (apparent) future, as we face our own past. In other
      words... we are moving forward while facing backwards,
      viewing a recession of apparent objects. Entropy is apparent
      in this backward view. I do not claim that this is 'actual'
      but rather apparent. Still, such data is relevant, and as
      you say, is not meaningless. Perhaps it offers a clue to
      something, like maybe why we face backwards...
      The confrontation itself, between being and being, rather
      than between
      being and Being, is what I point to. The 'finality' (is this
      authoritarian factor?) may be resolved by 'Namaste', at
      least on one level. How do we turn all those around us, into
      gods? Can it be done? Divinity (as useless as this concept
      may be) may be more common than apparent.

      Antoine, the Quiet Giant, responded:

      I enjoy each one of your word Gene, but these two paragraphs
      woke up the
      face facing the past in the gradient movement of my arrow of
      time. In
      other words brought memories from thermodynamics to burn.

      Looking for a clue to why we face backward, is to me trying
      to find out
      why fire burns. Which is to me a very legitimate question,
      since i am
      essentially fire in essence of manifestation. From where
      does come this
      general tendency for fire to burn, the movement towards
      maximum entropy,
      the arrow of time? Why is it not a fully reversible process?
      This web in
      which our face, facing backward, is cough...

      Why does not fire generate wood from air, like bees and
      flowers generate
      honey from the sun? Do bees live a deeper state of namaste
      between each
      other, than the molecules of dead wood do?, or maybe humans

      It does seems that in a community of Namaste, from the very
      basic level
      of energy consumption, that each actions, or spark of fire,
      "produce" "more", so that the "face" of the "community" may
      turn itself
      like a glove, outside in (or inside out), and come to create
      direction in which it looks.

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