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NDS Highlights for Sunday 1/14/01

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  • Mark W. Otter
    Dear list, I didn t understand much from the conversations this Sunday, but I enjoyed the enthusiastic sincerity (zeal?) that came across... (oh heck, just
    Message 1 of 1 , Jan 15, 2001
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      Dear list,

      I didn't understand much from the conversations this Sunday, but I
      enjoyed the enthusiastic sincerity (zeal?) that came across... (oh heck,
      just admit it Mark, you enjoyed the creative name calling and hair
      pulling...) If you really don't like contention, bleep past the first
      2/3 of these highlights and start up with Paul and Gloria's discussion
      of Buddhism.

      NOL.... new acronym meaning 'nodding out loud'.


      -- Hobbes

      White Wolf responded to Doc Hobbes recent posts:

      Dear Doc:

      progress is everywhere around you...have you looked in the mirror and
      scene the changes in your face...that is the progress you are making
      toward the death of the body, the mind and the heart...why should the
      mind which a function of the body not also experience progress...your
      name sake struggled in the name of philosophical progress...the
      challenges facing creatures today require progress...progress that can
      show us how to continue to advance without destroying the ship we are
      on...what will happen to humanity if we continue to destroy
      creatures...this forum is yet another example of progress...non-duality
      is progress seeking inter-faith dialogue and enrichment of higher
      consciouness...enlightenment is a mental concept as is
      progress...therefore both are empty...only spirit is emptiness
      itself...emptiness unfolding itself as the universe as endless, timeless
      love...spirit broods over creatures with a tranfigured body,
      compassionate mind and flaming heart of fourfold love in love with
      love...white wolfe sends you love...there is never enough
      love...progress is the very act of love...try telling your lover that
      there is no progess next time you are caressing her and see how she
      responds...white wolfe who is the witness of mark's spiritual progress
      assures you that the work to be done in the meditation hall, in zazen,
      in yoga, in contemplative prayer is never done for more than the
      fugitive moment it is accomplished.... ^^~~~~

      Namaste, i embrace the buddha, the dharma and the sangha, Pax
      Vosicum...

      further up and further in,

      white wolfe

      and then Omkara and White Wolf danced together:

      O: Dear Wolfe,

      This is not "progress" in the way of "accomplishment," this is change.
      There's a big difference between seeking for a particular goal, and the
      natural change that occurs in the universe.

      An example of "progress in the way of accomplishment" would be to try
      and resist the aging process and go backward. Progress takes effort, and
      involves desire... desire for a result. In your example of aging, this
      is not "progress" in the usual sense of the word, but "progression" or
      (I.E.) change. It doesn't take any desire or effort.

      "Psychological progress" is time-bound and takes time -- also involving
      the illusion of a doer. Change is timeless and just involves one event
      happening after another, in succession, endlessly, with no cause evident
      whatsoever.

      > the challenges facing creatures
      > today require progress...progress that can show us how
      to continue
      > to advance without destroying the ship we are on...

      Wolfe, you are very much deceived and living in a dream world. I hated
      to say it, but this appears to be a huge blind spot.

      > enlightenment is a mental concept as is progress...
      therefore both
      > are empty...

      So why, in what you say above, do you strongly suggest "progress" is
      essential?

      Is this all just concept for you, mental verbiage? Have you ever
      experienced the Reality, even for a moment? You sound very confused.

      > progress is the very act of love...try telling your
      lover that
      > there is no progess next time you are caressing her and
      see how she
      > responds...

      Wolfe, real love is the ANTITHESIS of "progress." Do you make efforts
      and TRY to love? Love occurs. And human love invariably involves loss.
      It's impermanent, temporary and ultimately hollow. Seek not the
      permanent in the impermanent. Why chase *attachment*?

      > white wolfe who is the witness of mark's spiritual
      progress assures
      > you that the work to be done in the meditation hall, in
      zazen, in
      > yoga, in contemplative prayer is never done for more
      than the
      > fugitive moment it is accomplished.... ^^~~~~

      Now you've lost me entirely, I didn't even understand what you wrote
      above.

      Have you been OK lately? I ask this honestly because honestly, you seem
      to have wandered into a dream.

      > Namaste, i embrace the buddha, the dharma and the sangha

      From the rest of your message, it appears you're *clinging*, not
      embracing. It appears you're clinging to a "comfort zone" of some sort,
      consoling yourself with so-called 'spirituality'. I could be wrong of
      course.

      Love,

      Omk.

      O continued:

      --- In NondualitySalon@egroups.com, "White Wolf" valemar@m... wrote:
      > radical non-duality
      >
      > "One of the greatest crimes of all is
      > to stand - in silence
      > in the face of wrongdoing."
      > -Santayana

      The question is: Who decides? What is right? What is wrong? A very
      "saintly" saying, but it requires strongly-held concepts of "right" and
      "wrong." He who is beyond concepts responds rather than reacts, and thus
      acts in the service of life. If I have to stop and think about right and
      wrong with every action, I'm living in 'the past'.

      > white wolfe sits amidst dark emptiness
      > and hears the sound of snow falling
      > what is it that white wolfe hears
      > that mankind does not?

      It's just a focus of attention thing. Why make something "holy saintly
      godly sacred precious wondrous glorious" out of it?

      I dunno about you, but when I hear snow falling (yes, it's audible) I
      simply hear snow falling. I don't hear angels singing in the background
      <grin>.

      Lately you seem very 'externally focused', Wolfe. It could be a
      misconception. You speak of 'radical non-duality' but ignore the
      "inner."

      Who are you? The speaker is lost in his words.

      Love,
      Omk.

      WW: Dear Brother,

      that is why i created the universe...to get lost in it...the fun is
      finding myself in the face of the beloved...that is you, my
      brother....who taught me this, not you...the scent of Mirabei is the one
      i follow...she who knows the dark lover...she created the witness of
      mark who is the ^^~~~~

      further up and further in,

      white wolfe

      p.s. stop being boring and go write some poetry yourself...i love it
      when you do...

      O: Dear White Wolfe,

      Please don't misconstrue my recent posts to you. I certainly don't
      consider you an enemy, nor do I consider myself your enemy. And while
      it's pleasant to be thought well of, I don't care what you think of me.

      My impression (all along it could be wrong) is that lately you're hiding
      from something HERE-NOW, hiding behind flowery and emotional words.

      I get the impression something's going on you don't want to face. That
      the wolfe is on the run from a polar bear ... ???

      I only want to help.

      Please accept my forgiveness if I'm wrong.

      Love,

      Tim

      O: Dear White Wolfe,

      Please forgive me again. My disposition is very different from yours.
      We share the same Awareness/Being, but "I" cannot enter your dream, nor
      "you" mine.

      At best, we can dream of one another for a brief moment.

      This is apparently not that moment.

      Although I admit no wrongdoing (or doership of any kind), I ask your
      forgiveness for the intrusion anyway.

      Love,

      Tim

      WW: Which one are you?

      (to my teacher, my beloved)



      One white wolfe sits on the sandy shoreline

      Of a silver tarn high up the sacred mountain

      Red, blue, gold dragonflies hover over holy water

      They melt seamlessly into the precious sky mirror

      Suddenly, a golden trout leaps toward heaven

      And snatches a scarlet dragonfly into her teeth

      With a kosmic plop she falls back into the water

      Concentric circles ripple outward toward the shore

      Each intregally enfolding, embracing, expanding

      One gently after the other without effort and endlessly

      Until the last one kisses the tender paws of the wolfe

      Still sitting without moving and who then lifts his head



      Pure longing howling of tender joy, sweet sorrow,

      For what lies infinitely and immortally beyond!



      Which one are you, my beloved, my reader?

      The dragonfly descending and hovering&

      The golden trout ascending and striving&

      The noble warrior sitting on the shoreline&

      Which one are you, oh my beloveds, which one?


      Mark Christopher Valentine

      In other news, Doc Hobbes, or Jesus or Poe, or someone offered:


      >From: Daniel Berkow berkowd@u...
      >Nothing is under control.

      Then we best get control of our 'self'... just in case.

      >That would require a controlling entity.

      Or an entity in control.

      It is a race after all.

      I hear a lot of 'labels', 'symbols', and 'names'.... but today is yet
      yesterday and thus what ever words or swords of compassion that you may
      think that you have are... well... sword of compassion... today is the
      same so... whatever.

      I mean if you had the 'content and context' to 'theName' for all this
      time then it seems to me that you should almost be able to hit the
      switch any time you want... which you say..."I can hit the switch
      anytime I want"... problem being you is to do this you must know where
      'theSwitch' is... I do.

      Faster, Faster, Faster!

      Hmmm... still in the game to save my ass? Then who the hell am I riding?

      Do I have more?

      Here... (and yes, I have more... so much more in fact that you will have
      to empty that 'full of 50 of self' and '50 of me container' so that I
      can fill you once more. Advaita is that place where you are filled with
      the absolutness of spirit.

      A native american was standing post
      when a radiant man of
      a different weathered skin
      approached.
      "How." say the indian.
      Then, cupping his hands
      and unassumingly
      placing them forward,
      the man said "Please."
      And the elder that waited
      for the return of his brother
      so-named Tah,
      good brother of Jah,
      and theChrist
      embraced him 'self'
      and carried him
      the journey home.

      If you say you posses the name of names then why do you enslave a
      sleeping people? Do you fear that you may lose that name? Then who is
      the name that named you?

      Bring 'that' to me as God is not named.

      Is there a future? No. Not until tomorrow.

      Thus, to understand the 'timing of God' you must realize that God is
      living 'this today' with you but he is conscious that he is in
      tomorrow's dimension, or yesterdays if you prefer.

      That is why this time is out of joint... do you understand that? Some
      are living in tomorrow (the dead), some are living in yesterday (the
      living), and the rest of us are in between... let me ask you...

      Where is the power?

      Poe

      Doc also offered this conceptual response to Jody...

      >
      >Advaita

      concept

      >only describes

      concept

      >a framework

      concept

      >of concept

      concept

      >which by itself

      concept

      >is

      concept

      >utterly

      concept

      >meaningless.

      concept

      >
      >--jody.

      Teach me the meaning of these ObiWan with both context (concept) and
      content (concept) and the various meanings of, or degrees of fullness if
      you prefer, of each.

      You can start with the concept of 'is'. If you can not express that do
      not even worry about the others as they are further away from the path.

      The mind is nondual.
      (not one before the other...
      just 'is')
      The mind in motion is dual.
      As it needs something to push off
      to move creating one state 'to' another.
      The start advaita, thought, think, and action.
      The end effect, think, thought, and advaita.
      The thing, concept, whatever is
      Advaita beginning and end but not in between.
      Sort of like a zillion other words
      that are used to decribe the same state.
      Expressionless 'negative' expression 'positive'.

      =0 or 1 but not both as
      both are each
      but not yin
      is not yang.

      When is the mind not in motion?

      Poe

      Michael Read filed the following memorandum with the appropriate
      officials:

      "Jesus Poe" wrote:
      Snipped: bs from previous posts>
      > <click>
      >
      > "Read niner, read niner... this is 0:
      > Pull back! Pull back! You are getting to close to real
      living in a
      real life
      > on a real world with real people!"
      >
      > ...ssssss.....
      >
      > Shit!... off the radar!
      >
      > All stations, all stations, this is 0:
      >
      > Ground troops deploy on that signal
      > before they figure out what he means.
      >
      > Go! Go! Go!
      >

      Memo on a minor skirmish
      To: Vice Marshall Jesus Poe

      Subject: your ground troops

      I am happy to report that your ground troops are doing well. They were
      surrounded by me in a single handed non-deployment.

      I marched them all at bliss point over to TheWayStation. There they
      remain in voluntary captivity. (I can't get them to leave!) At this time
      they are partying on Veracity Vodka and eating away on the Infinity Pie.

      I have had to bring in extra houris and succubi just to keep them
      entertained. It's a good thing that the station is so big!

      Now, if you would, please come and collect your troops. They will be
      easy to find; just follow the trail of discarded gear. They may not want
      to return though. Sgt. Slaughter has declared that his new name is now
      Sgt. Sweetiepie!

      HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

      Peace - don't TAH, donate it to the needy - Michael

      Jody offered this to Doc:



      --- In NondualitySalon@egroups.com, "Jesus Poe"
      doc_hobbes@h...
      wrote:

      [snip]

      > The mind is nondual.

      No, the mind renders everything except the nondual.

      > (not one before the other...
      > just 'is')

      > The mind in motion is dual.
      > As it needs something to push off
      > to move creating one state 'to' another.
      > The start advaita, thought, think, and action.
      > The end effect, think, thought, and advaita.
      > The thing, concept, whatever is
      > Advaita beginning and end but not in between.
      > Sort of like a zillion other words
      > that are used to decribe the same state.
      > Expressionless 'negative' expression 'positive'.
      >
      > =0 or 1 but not both as
      > both are each
      > but not yin
      > is not yang.
      >
      > When is the mind not in motion?
      >
      > Poe

      The mind can be at motion and at rest at the same time. Where it is
      resting, the Atman is self luminous. Where it is in motion, the world of
      name and form appears to exist.

      --jody.

      Jody grounded the discussion thusly:


      --- In NondualitySalon@egroups.com, "Spydir K"
      spydirk@h... wrote:
      > Judgment of another ?... In "Non-duality"?... now THAT
      is really
      > interesting... <smile>
      >
      > Spydir K

      It's a study in my personal psychology. It's called projection. I
      recognize something in someone that I haven't liked in myself, so I go
      ahead and pass a judgement on the other as an attempt to rectify the
      same in myself.

      I suppose it's a waste of mine and the other's time. In the best case
      scenerio, I find out that the other does not share the same qualities
      and I find myself corrected. In the second best scenerio, the other
      finds that what I've rendered about them is true, allowing them to see
      past their view of themselves.

      The likely outcome is neither, just two illusory individuals butting
      heads.

      This list exists so that individuals may discuss non-dual reality.
      However, this list exists in and only in the world of name and form, and
      all discussion, no matter what the subject, is by its very nature dual.

      One of the things that appears to stand in the way of our experiential
      understanding of nondual reality is our attachment to ourselves as
      individuals. I was pointing Doc toward his, as I recognize the same in
      myself. In an offhand way, we are still within the purview of this list.

      --jody.

      Omkara interacted with Doc again:

      --- In NondualitySalon@egroups.com, "Jesus Poe"
      doc_hobbes@h...
      wrote:

      > If you say you posses the name of names then why do you
      enslave a
      > sleeping people?

      Nobody is sleeping, only imagining they are. But even if they were, how
      can someone already enslaved be further enslaved? There is either
      freedom or enslavement, nothing 'in between'.

      And there is ONLY freedom. "Asleep" and "enslaved" are not in my
      vocabulary or conceptabulary! Dare you impose these concepts upon a
      fully awake/aware populace?!?!

      > Bring 'that' to me as God is not named.

      "You" already ARE "That." It cannot be brought to you, nor can you find
      what you already are. Nor can you "see 'That'" anymore than you can see
      your eyeballs.

      > Is there a future? No. Not until tomorrow.

      No, not ever. Just as a flashlight, spun quickly in a circle appears as
      a ring of glowing light (but is only a flashlight), so "future" appears
      but in actuality is only Now.

      Tell me, tomorrow (when it arrives), where has "the future" fled? Into
      yet another "tomorrow!"

      > Thus, to understand the 'timing of God' you must realize
      that God
      > is living 'this today' with you but he is conscious that
      he is in
      > tomorrow's dimension, or yesterdays if you prefer.

      "God" is merely a concept. And if you are referring to the 'conceptual
      Absolute' (Brahman), God is not conscious at all, let alone conscious
      "of" anything. It will not do to play too casually with such ideas as
      "consciousness" and "awareness..." especially given that they have no
      meaning except as concepts.

      > Where is the power?

      With the politicians, where it always is.

      Love,
      Omk.

      and thusly:

      -- In NondualitySalon@egroups.com, "Jesus Poe" doc_hobbes@h...
      wrote:

      > Please... take your time for your time is all you have.

      More accurately, time is all "he" IS. And all "you" are.

      > When my words hit the ground White Wolfe you had better
      be
      > displaced if you know what I mean. They are sneaking up
      on you as
      > we speak.

      Words are combinations of letters, nothing more. They have only the
      meaning the reader (!!NOT THE WRITER!!) gives them. Thus, your warning
      lacks teeth.

      Will you "gum" White Wolfe to death with your empty symbologies? Did the
      kindergarten teacher, when teaching "ABC's," pose a threat?

      Those who know, don't speak... those who speak, don't know.

      Those who ARE, *LOVE*!

      Love,
      Omk

      (Ed note: When I first started reading this, the Ooo Oooo made me think
      that I had posted something and then forgotten about it. I'm glad there
      is someone else on the list that expresses themself so eloquently.
      Ooooooh, Ooooooh! I'm also glad for the non-contentious post.)

      Paul: Ooo Oooo
      I have a question,

      Anyone?

      In Buddhism they mention 5 aggregates. Thoughts, Feelings, Mental
      formations, consciousness, form. Which of these fits the more constant
      feeling of a thinker. Even though I thought I had a slight insight that
      this too was a thought. But how & why more constant? Or is this the I
      am everyone is speaking about. That might fall under the aggregate
      consciousness.

      Funny how one seems more internal than the other. Wow Makes me think of
      some sort of layer system with the senses and the phenomena it
      perceives being on the very outer layer.

      Paul

      Gloria appreciated the post too:

      Dear Paul,

      Aaah, an excuse to talk Buddhism, thank you.
      While all 5 together represent body/mind, form is the body and
      consciousness is faculty of awareness, along with the other 3 being
      mental conceptions, or functions of the mind. The lists sometimes vary a
      bit. Have seen form, feeling, conception, impulse, and conscousness. In
      another, all elements of the phenomenal world are given as matter,
      perception, mental conceptions (ideas), volition, and consciousness
      (mind). Each of these is temporary, as is the coming together of them,
      so ultimate reality is empty. While there is an "only mind exists"
      (yogacara) school of Buddhism, most schools allow that conventional
      reality of material phenomena need not be denied. The mind is drawn out
      by the senses to objects, so meditation on emptiness is meant to be more
      than an intellectual understanding, its a raft to a change in awareness.

      You would have a lot of company with affirming that the "thinker" as a
      self or identity, is actually only a thought or concept, like a product
      of memory and conditioning. Buddhists would say it lacks inherent
      identity as it has no permanence. So there is no thinker as a separate
      self, only thinking is happening. I Am is being, existence itself,
      without qualities..not this or that... presence... poetry expresses this
      better than intellectual ideas, silence best of all.

      You might enjoy to read Nisargadatta Song of I am on the NDS website.

      http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada/iam.htm

      Welcome and glad you joined, I have been enjoying your posts.

      Love,
      Gloria

      White Wolf offered this poem:

      Who is the Lord of the Dance?

      (For Father Patrick Collins)

      ...dance, dance, wherever you may be,

      I am the lord of the dance says he...

      -Shaker Hymm



      oh, my brothers and sisters

      and kindred souls who are my friends

      and especially you, those who call me your enemy



      the sun arises again today

      the snow is a blistering white canopy

      with diamonds refracting light into the trackless blue



      and white wolfe, a wild and mad dog

      capers in the innocence of the fresh
      powder

      with the new pups that our mother sent him last night



      close your eyes and see me

      come play with us in the crystals of
      light

      dance, dance and as you have never danced before



      do you see me yet, an old fool in love

      soon to be an ageless old wise one
      sitting

      and smiling because his heart is full of the beloved



      open your mouth now and join me

      come join the chorus of my infant cherubs

      sing, sing as you have never sung before or will again



      do you hear us now, we are you dull one

      it is you who are destined to be an old
      wise one

      embrace you sorrow and transcend it by allowing love to
      arise



      join with me now who is still and young at heart

      I am the golden eagle that descends upon
      white wings

      And remains hidden within your mystic mind and sacred
      heart



      Join me, join them, become one with us

      Dance the dancing, sing the singing of
      joy

      And you will find yourself laughing because you are happy




      Laughing because you are once again

      A newborn puppy playing in the snowy
      garden of love

      And your noble heart knows that all manner of things are
      beautiful!



      I am your lord and the leader of the sacred pack

      And this is my only commandment to you my creatures

      Dance, Sing, Laugh and enjoy my play and never stop
      celebrating



      My party has no beginning, no end and therefore no middle

      You are my game and I am the prey you seek

      You are the Lord of the Dance, dance wherever you may be&




      Mark Christopher Valentine

      Sunday, January 14, 2001

      uarelove offered this invitation:

      You are invited to join a new e group called Advaita Bodha Deepika.
      (The Lamp of Non-dual Knowledge) If you would like to receive the
      Teachings of the Advaita Bodha Deepika in your email click:

      http://www.egroups.com/group/AdvaitaBodhaDeepika

      then look upper left and click subscribe.

      The Teachings will be presented with no commentary. The book Advaita
      Bodha Deepika is one of the few books esteemed by Sri Ramana Maharshi.
      Sri Ramana Maharshi often quoted from the Advaita Bodha Deepika. This
      English Translation was thoroughly revised in the presence of Sri
      Ramana Maharshi. The Advaita Bodha Deepika may well be the clearest,
      easiest to understand summary of the Teachings of Advaita Vedanta ever
      written. The book is written in the form of a dialogue between Master
      and disciple. The disciple doubts almost everything the Master is
      telling him. Therefore, the doubts that most people have, from those
      who are just beginning to study Advaita, (Non-duality) to those who have
      have been studying it for a long time, are cleared up in this book.

      The eight chapters are:

      1. Super-imposition (Adhyaropa)

      2. Its removal. (Apavada)

      3. The means of accomplishment (Sadhana)

      4. Hearing the Teachings (Sravana)

      5. Reflecting on the Teachings(Manana)

      6. Annihilation of latencies. (Vasanaksaya)

      7. Direct Realization (Sakshatkara)

      8. Extinction of the Mind (Manolaya)

      Step by step right to the extinction of the Mind. This book makes
      lofty and difficult points clear and easy to understand. If you
      would like to receive the Teachings of The Avaita Bodha Deepika in
      your e mail click:

      http://www.egroups.com/group/AdvaitaBodhaDeepika

      then look upper left and click subscribe.

      If you have any difficulty in subscribing send an e mail
      toArunachala3@... saying subscribe me to the Advaita Bodha Deepika
      group and include the email address you would like subscribed.

      May you discover in direct experience the Eternal within you.

      With Love,
      uarelove

      Finally, Terry continued the recent discussion of the movie The Matrix:

      Subject: Agree or Disagree? From: "K R" kcr_40@h...

      For the movie The Matrix, do you agree/disagree and what are your
      thoughts that The Matrix was intended to be an allegory to the level of
      control exerted on Americans by the media?

      gill said:

      The only way to know for sure what it was intended to be would be to ask
      the wachowski brothers. That said, it seems a rather narrow view. To me
      it seemed an allegory to the level of control exerted on the minds of
      most of humanity (not just Americans) by a few 'men in suits'. The
      media, governments, business magnates; those who crave what they view as
      'control', and have a vested interest in keeping that control.

      Paradoxically, it is those people who are most in need of 'freeing their
      minds', those who are chasing ever more after 'power' which they think
      will bring them freedom and happiness, and which is ultimately like
      digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole, with less and less
      chance of escape. I found it very poignant, and I can't recall anybody
      mentioning this before, when the agent told morpheus he was desperate to
      escape, that if he could just do this one thing he would be free. Sound
      familiar?

      terry:

      I saw the allegory as being much greater than simply media control. Note
      the numerous reference to Lewis Carroll: was he simply talking about
      media control? 'How deep does the rabbit hole go?' Morpheus was a
      Buddha (awakened one); that 'morpheus' refers to sleep/death shows how
      topsy turvy the phenomenal world is from Reality, as jesus points out,
      those who seek to save their lives lose them, and those who lose them
      preserve them, while he himself lived that nondual view as a martyr.

      The 'matrix' itself is Maya, the world-illusion, the construct that each
      individual creates and imagines that they live 'in.' The
      'illusion-dwellers' for the most part are not ready to be 'unplugged,'
      but morpheus/buddha and his crew/disciples were prepared to awaken those
      individuals who could be awakened, with the ultimate aim of awakening
      all sentient beings. 'Neo' was 'the One,' the ordinary you and me
      sitting at our computer consoles seeking 'the truth' about the
      matrix/maya. When 'neo' was prepared, by the oracle/insight, to
      sacrifice his individual life to save the buddha/morpheus, then he
      became the One/an enlightened being/bodhisattva. The buddha/avatar was
      always searching for a being he could turn into a bodhisattva, and was
      trying to free people from the world illusion (the truth: there is no
      spoon/there are no things). Neo simply wanted answers, but morpheus'
      sole aim was to turn a neos into Ones. The 'suits' were machines/mental
      constructs/ego, whose primary function in being was to remain in
      control, and utilize 'life' as a power source for machine functioning.
      They would be happy to create a 'perfect world'/happy world illusion but
      life 'wouldn't accept the programming,' because as 'some said,' they
      'didn't have the programming *language* to describe such a world'
      (language is inherently dualistic and happiness can only be described by
      referring to unhappiness) or because humans 'defined their lives by
      misery' (dualism is inherent in the development of life). You are
      right that the suits/ego always think they can make some sort of
      progress, accomplish one more thing and be done with this 'stink,' this
      world that they 'hate' and 'can't stand'; the suits had to unplug from
      each other even to admit that much. The suits had more raw physical
      power than real people within the matrix, but they were inherently
      limited by the rules of the matrix, while neo, being potentially the
      One, was not limited at all by the rules of the matrix, once he realized
      the truth ('physical strength' means nothing 'in this place').

      So I saw the allegory as one of *any* ordinary individual finding
      enlightenment with the help of the wise and accumulated human spiritual
      culture and spiritual friends (the triple gem: buddha, dharma, sangha).

      Great movie...

      aloha, terry

      So, let me chime in here and say,
      aloha, Mark
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