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Tuesday/Wednesday January 2-3

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    GENE POOLE AND LARRY BIDDENGER L: Hi everyone, happy new year, new day, new moment, new now, non-now. I was wondering if anyone knows where I could find some
    Message 1 of 1 , Jan 5, 2001

      L: Hi everyone, happy new year, new day, new moment, new now, non-now.
      I was wondering if anyone knows where I could find some words of wisdom
      on the difference between awareness and emptiness.

      G:Sure, Larry.

      There is no difference.

      L:>By emptiness I mean no self, a simple negation, nothing there.

      G: "Nothing" is far short of emptiness.

      L: > A lot of time awareness is said to be empty because it is
      ungraspable, but it is also life itself, all this, including point of
      view, which is actually not this.

      G: If it is not this, what is it?

      L: >Some buddhists call this buddha nature or basic goodness. But what I
      'm trying to ferret out is what is going on with no self itself.

      G: If you ask yourself (which you have done), you will have the

      Not-knowing is the answer; that is the essential property of awareness;
      that is why, the perpetual questions.

      As you may suspect, emptiness is 'hungry', 'questing... '

      L: >Maybe we don't really know what we mean when we say I exist.

      G: If we say 'exist', we are also saying 'not-exist'. This is the
      linguistic trap of duality. To escape this trap, imagine non-separate,
      bi-polar 'objects, each pole the extreme opposite of the other;
      hot-cold, true-false, etc. Opposites are never separated, but may
      appear (to beginner's mind) to be so. Neither are opposites to be
      'united', never having separated.

      Now, apply this to 'emptiness' and 'fullness'.

      L: >We can understand intellectually that we are only an assemblage of
      elements but I suspect there is a hidden belief that there is some
      unnamable something inside here which is me.

      G: An assemblage of points, clustered by will only. If the will to
      cluster points is lost, each point moves equidistant to each other
      point. Only consciousness has the power to cluster points; it is called

      The hidden belief could be more accurately defined as '(unexamined)
      assumption'. It is a hunger for ideal form, but because of constantly
      changing/cyclic conditions, the ideal is never attained, yet the hunger
      is specific. Life-threatening anorexia is an extreme example of this
      hunger for ideal form.

      Another name for this specific hunger is 'desire'. "Desire creates the

      L: >The one we are doing all this for.

      G: ... Is the one who is doing.

      L: >Of course there isn't; there's nothing there at all, hence no self.

      G: Back to polar objects; of course there is something here, but we see
      only what is visible to us. We do not see the invisible 'emptiness',
      which is also here. So without 'graphic evidence' of 'one', we assume

      Self is the shadow of no-self, which is real.

      L: >Somehow this erroneous belief is dissolved and a wonderful feeling
      of emptiness arises.

      G: yes.

      L: >Isn't this different from what people are talking about when they
      are talking about awareness?

      G: Depends, which people. And what they say. Awareness is the hungry
      vacuum of absolute space.

      L: > I think this business of emptiness is getting short shrift and
      should be looked into more thoroughly, mostly because, I think, the
      belief in existence is somehow hidden. But I'm not sure. Any thoughts?

      G: Making belief conscious is the first step to restoring emptiness to
      its original pristine state; the next step is to allow the belief to
      run without ceasing, to the point of the 'reductio ad absurdium'. All
      beliefs are essentially self-cancelling, if fully developed. Anyone can
      verify this.

      Terry's recent discussion of the 'uncertainty principle' is relevant
      here, also. Typically, people have the 'hubris' to assume the role of
      'doer', and thus define what happens, as being a product of 'doing'.

      In 'reality', everything that 'happens' is actually a powerful yet
      forgotten (by humans) language, which self-reveals _by its own context_
      what it is communicating, and to whom. The binary (dual) nature of all
      things, is merely an aspect of the grammar of this language. We may
      consider 'duality' to be, a form of punctuation.

      Our human use of language, is a remnant of our potential, and a
      harbinger of our possibilities.




      Sitting with the 'discomfiture'....with the aid of a little
      creative imagery....I find that it says, "I'm afraid".

      I discover I'm afraid..... that the 'emptiness' which surrounds me now
      is that same 'empty place' I used to split off to when I would be raped
      as a child.

      I always knew that I had 'split off' as a child during those
      times.....having very few memories of the 'act' itself. Tonight I
      revisited that place...just put my big toe into that space.... that I
      used to visit when I split away from the 'reality' of my life. It was a
      place rightly named 'the void'. A place absent any sounds, absent any
      thoughts, any feelings....absent any light.

      It was like being in a dark box.

      Touching that place again I realized what all the tears have been about
      these past days: tears of fear that asks: is that all that's left for

      I associate that dark box with Hell. And I'm scared to death that Hell
      is the Emptiness that awaits me. >



      Beloved Melody...

      Entering the dark box while dropping interpretations
      of it from one's past experience can be revealing.

      I once judged this darkness as the wrong place to be
      since the truth is supposed to be about light, right?
      I was in a mode of recognizing and stripping away all
      my assumptions, and as I did this regarding darkness
      I was surprised.

      I do the same for other boxes of all sorts.

      Since you have developed the skill of "sitting with"
      I am certain there will come a time... perhaps now...
      when sitting with your dark and empty box will
      become an avenue of relevation for you also.

      with all love,



      All feelings are flows of energy and, let's face is, K. can act as a
      powerful de-stabilizer, rooting up more than can be handled

      Either one is the witness, unaffected, or the flow of energy has to be
      redirected, for instance by engaging oneself in creative work or
      selfless service. But there is a threshold for the level of anguish
      that can be accepted as a witness - when exceeded, there is no choice
      but the application of redirection.

      What causes the interpretation of "bad" feelings is that because
      subconscious issues are "burned out", energy is "freed" and as a
      phenomenon, that is not different from losing a loved one - then, a
      flow of energy suddenly gets blocked - often that cannot be
      differentiated from energy becoming "freed".

      As an analogy, the knowledge of the nervous system and how painkillers
      work, will not increase one's "private" endorphin production - only
      being loved and taken care of will do so (redirection) but a lack of
      that leaves no alternative than the painkillers.

      Love, Jan



      Xan, you wrote, in part:

      "{perhaps now... when sitting with your dark and empty box will become
      an avenue of relevation for you also."

      Early this morning that 'dark box' became a 'dark man' in a dream I had
      just before I awoke this morning.

      In this dream:

      I had just stepped outside of my tiny house and was walking on the
      grass beside it, when a very dark skinned....very 'black'....man saw
      that my door was opened and walked inside.

      As I saw him enter I shouted for him to get out, but he ignored me and
      entered anyway.

      I could see thru the window he was rummaging thru my things, so I
      started screaming for help. I couldn't believe he was doing this so

      Guys started coming out of their houses nearby with rifles drawn, and
      with that, the black man stepped outside and drew his own gun
      ...pointing it directly at me, as if daring me stop him.

      For a few seconds there was a 'stand off', but finally he dropped his
      gun and allowed the 'rescuers' to take possession of him.

      As he was being taken away he started nodding towards the house,
      telling me there was something in the house. I immediately knew it was
      like a bacteria of sorts and knew that if was left there, it would
      certainly kill the baby I was carrying in my womb.

      I was in such a panic.....that a man would plant a deadly
      bacteria.....would purposefully try to kill an unborn life.....and I
      immediately began considering how I could find and remove that

      [At that moment my alarm clock rang. And as I sat up and re-played the
      dream quickly in my mind ( so as not to lose it ), it occurred to
      immediately that I may have jumped to conclusions about this black man.

      I had first assumed he was there to rob me, and then assumed he was
      trying to kill my gestating baby. But what if he were there trying to
      FIND that bacteria??

      I also realized I had jumped to the *conclusion* that he was trying to
      end the life of my unborn child.

      What if he was rummaging thru my stuff....trying to find the disease
      making stuff....in an attempt SAVE my baby?

      Just as I had associated that 'dark box' with Hell, I had associated
      this 'dark man' as Evil.

      I can not only hear the rather obvious guidance in this, but it gives
      me pause to consider just how quickly the mind jumps to conclusions,
      and how we tend to act with such *certainty* that we can read the
      intent of another.

      I see that * coming to conclusions* about an 'other'....whether it be a
      man, or a 'box',

      ....whether it be done consciously, or unconsciously,

      is simply an act of fear and 'self' preservation.

      Once more, this 'fear of death' confronts me.

      love, Melody



      Melody, You have not asked for dream interpretation, but I want to
      share with you my *first response*.

      The black man is not what you are afraid of but your fear itself. It is
      brazenly in control of your inner home and your stuff, and when you
      martial your strength against it, it threatens to kill you. In fact it
      has left its invisible microbial weapon to destroy your innocence.

      Truth is, fear never killed anyone by itself. The most it can do is
      control and threaten and make you feel bad.

      There is no substitute for ceasing to run and to fight, for turning to
      face the images of fear and loving them. They are really only masks
      over the purity of your own sweet essence.

      with love



      When you inquire of yourself, 'What's really going on?,'
      the stories the mind makes up start to get dissolved.
      Just let it go deep enough.
      Put compassion onto aspects your own life,
      let tenderness take down the shields
      that mind puts up out of fear.

      Then just be with what remains.

      -- Neelam
      New Years Intensive
      Ojai 1/1/01
      (contributed by Xan)




      Dear Sahajman,

      don't go. I like the way you spell.

      I particularly like "menopasual". What a great word.

      I've been for far too long caught up in metaphysical speculations,
      wondering about causal phenomena. Now I can relax, and go metacasual.

      My girlfriend is post menopasual
      but I'm feeling rather metacasual
      My stress levels used to be haphasual,
      But now I am most metacasual
      I hope I haven't offended you Sahajual,
      'cause I can see that you are unusualasual
      I don't know how to end this poetic homagual
      So I'll just repeat the word menopasual.

      :Love, Mark
      ps "before Darth"?


      Dear enlightened and very deep people,

      Please do not flood my mailbox with questions about your romances and
      relationships, menopasual issues, and whether you will get laid in the
      near future. Although I am omnisicent and know the answers to these
      things, I prefer not to be bothered by these trivialities. Thanks.
      Otto, thanks for introducing me to this list, but since i reside
      permanently on the 101st level of realization and most people here are
      barely at level 1.5, I will be sighning off.

      Good luck everyone. There is hope. I guess that is easy for me to say!

      Sahajman (the all prevading one).



      For a long time I thought that to 'experience my nothingness' was, that
      as I looked inward, there would be nothing. As long as I felt
      something, I wasn't 'there.' Then I experienced seeing that all the
      things that I thought I was were really nothing. This felt more
      interior. So I realized that my nothingness was looking out and seeing
      all my personalities as really nothing. This feels more like the dark
      night. It seems to be the difference between standing on the
      circumference of a globe or on the surface of the earth and looking
      inward to look for nothing whereas from the innermost center all the
      nothing is 'out there.'

      I think this goes along with when I realized that there wasn't
      something 'inside' which was going to wake up but an 'awakening to'
      life occurs.


      Hi Ed,

      I am not real sure what is bothering you but it has the 'feel' of
      trying to accelerate with one's foot on the brake.

      This is how I see it. Most of us can reach a place of absolute
      stillness in meditation. When we stand up and open the door, so to
      speak, all hell breaks loose. It is very difficult to take with us into
      ordinary life that meditative stillness. As soon as the body begins to
      move, images are released, the mechanism kicks in and we are fast
      asleep. I suggest that thinking that we can take it with us is in fact,
      exactly, what prevents any possibility of it happening. What we can do
      is watch and in the watching (as impartially as possible) everything
      gets revealed sooner or later and in the revealing, stillness returns.
      This time with a huge smile.

      Love, Marcia


      I was in a group for twenty-five years. One of the unique vocabulary
      phrases that we had was.....

      "I have been this way ever since I was stabbed."

      This one came about because once a woman showed up at our doorstep with
      the 'story' that her particular personality manifestations were because
      when she was very young she was stabbed and it caused all sorts of
      fears and so forth. The truth is that what she said was true. It was
      also true that she had a stake in it being true and it had become a
      crutch used to explain anything she either didn't want to hear or do.
      The reason that it became part of our vocabulary was the absolute
      universal applicability to everyone. Everyone has a story, subtle,
      gross, or any other way. In fact, I would hazard a guess that this very
      story is our grist for our own mill. At some point, it becomes
      imperative for the evolving soul to see that it's 'story' is exactly
      what it has to sacrifice on the cross of the horizontal axis of linear
      time and the vertical axis of eternal being.



      Hello Marcia,

      What you say here is true in many instances, though not always. Often
      what we describe as supreme self confidence, may be a person abiding in
      the still point. Apparently, the "great" painters, dancers, musicians,
      and athletes find their strength and power in the still point of
      consciousness. It comes with intensive training and discipline; when
      that still point is reached they are able to be totally spontaneous. I
      notice it may happen when shooting a picture, or playing the piano, or
      open to healing of self or others, or in face to face dialog. The most
      difficulty for me in finding still point is when writing, as in the
      present situation, where the pressure came up full force because of the
      intensity to make sense of my thoughts. Its one area where I most need
      to find still point. The problem goes back to a traumatic experience in
      high school. Thanks for responding.



      Philip Novak's "The Vision of Nietzsche" - some quotes -

      "In reality there has been only one *Christian*, and he died on the

      "The life of the redeemer was nothing else that *this* practice - his
      death too was nothing else.... He no longer required any formulas, any
      rites for communicating with God - not even prayer. He settled his
      accounts with the whole Jewish penance-and-reconciliation doctrine; he
      knows that it is through the *practice* of one's life that one feels
      'divine,' 'blessed,' 'evangelic,' at all times a 'child of God.' It is
      *not* 'penance,' *not* 'prayer for forgiveness' which leads to God:
      *evangelic practice alone* leads to God, it *is* God! - What was
      *abolished* with the Evangel was the Judaism of the concepts 'sin,'
      'forgiveness of sin,' 'faith,' 'redemption by faith,' - the whole of
      Jewish *ecclesiastical* teaching was denied in the 'glad tidings.' "The
      profound instinct for how one whould have to *live* in order to feel
      oneself 'in Heaven': this alone is the psychological reality of '
      redemption.' - A new way of living, *not* a new belief..."

      "The 'kingdom of Heaven' is a condition of the heart - not something
      that comes 'upon the earth' or 'after death'...The 'kingdom of God' is
      not something one waits for; it has no yesterday or tomorrow, it does
      not come 'in a thousand years' - it is an experience within a heart; it
      is everywhere, it is nowhere..."

      "This 'bringer of glad tidings' died as he had lived, as he *taught* -
      *not* to 'redeem mankind' but to demonstrate how one ought to live.
      What he bequeathed to mankind is his *practice*: his bearing before the
      judges, before the guards, before the accusers and every kind of
      calumny and mockery - his bearing on the *Cross*... And he entreats, he
      suffers, he loves *with* those, *in* those who are doing evil to him.
      His words to the *thief* on the Cross contain the whole Evangel. 'That
      was verily a *divine* man, a child of God!' - says the thief. 'If thou
      feelest this' - answers the redeemer - '*thou are in Paradise*, thou
      are a child of God.' *Not* to defend oneself, *not* to grow angry,
      *not* to make responsible...But not to resist even the evil man - to
      *love* him...

      aloha, terry


      melody wrote:

      "And even though the feeling of being alienated and rejected by others
      for my 'bad manners' was painful at times, the force of the energy
      moving thru me would allow me to express no other way AND to be in
      integrity with this 'body-mind system' at the same time.

      "And to simply 'blame' this change in expression and heart on menopause
      would be a very big mistake."

      terry: I have heard menopausal women speak this way before, boys, so
      watch out! and walk softly. To start, please forgive me, Melody, for
      speaking precisely of what you explicitly say is not the root of the
      problem; chalk it up to a rant if you like. I promise to give you a
      poem at the end which does apply.

      I remember living through my mom's menopause, and now I have lived
      through my wife's. I could write a book on the subject, but let me
      briefly encapsulate the core idea that I have about it. (I could write
      a book on the male 'mid-life crisis' as well, but that's another story;
      those men who know what I am talking about are as grateful to be
      'post-midlife-crisis' as most older women are to be 'post-menopausal.')
      I think of menopause as a liberating thing. Women, it is well known,
      have many more hormones than men. We share testosterone of course, but
      men have a much higher dose, and thus the infamous 'one-track mind' of
      the male. Women have, notably, oxytocin (which Ken Wilber talks about)
      and numerous others. Observe women and you can see how helplessly young
      women fall in love, and are so often taken advantage of. One may
      observe how totally devoted they are to their children, and how like
      virtually every other mammal they are in this respect. The very
      paradigm of love in human life is that of a mother; the buddha
      recommended that we all treat each other as a mother would treat an
      only child, for example (and what a beautiful idea, one I use for
      meditation more than any other single saying by anyone). If you observe
      children, you can see that they have it figured out before they can
      talk that mom will love them no matter what, but if they want dad's
      love they had better behave. If you observe adolescent children
      (especially girls) getting along (if it can be described that way) with
      their menopausal mothers, it is amazing the levels of hostility that
      can be reached before everyone comes to their senses. Of course the
      menopausal mom still loves her children, but no longer is this love fed
      so intensely by specific hormones. Men who love women (and I count
      myself among their number, shamelessly loving women more than I love
      men) are amazed and delighted with the love that they possess, so much
      greater than that which is in the male heart. What we have to work at
      so effortfully, and can find only in the depths of our hearts and souls
      (heart-mind, if you like), women have without effort, like breathing.
      Comes menopause and these hormones which contribute so much mammalian
      root brain love to the female psyche begin to diminish. The kids know
      it pdq and harass their poor moms; they know they are missing something
      and don't know whence or why, but they sure blame mom for it, and of
      course it isn't her fault. When I say that it is liberating - doesn't
      it seem like most of our painful difficulties are liberating, once we
      have made it through them? - I am referring to the fact that hormones
      *make* us feel things, and love which comes from the heart and soul is
      'freely chosen' so to speak. That there are so many more male saints
      than female saints is not simply a matter of patriarchy; men have to
      work much harder at it and women are *expected* to be saintly. The
      differences between post-menopausal women and men of the same age
      narrow significantly, as they begin to compete on a level playing
      field. Women, newly freed from being bound to love by hormones can now
      find true spiritual love without the confusion introduced by hormones.
      It is a hard time for them, bouncing from unaccustomed coldness to
      unaccustomed tears; having an understanding mate and children
      (especially daughters) is a wonderful thing, and going through it alone
      is very tough. I don't think there is anything of 'the war between the
      sexes' in this view; women are greatly blessed by nature with so much
      more love than men have, while men are blessed with freedom from an
      early age. Men who love women and women who love men are twice-blessed.
      The premier sign that the human race has reacher or is reaching
      maturity (fully evolved status) is women being enlightened in larger
      numbers and showing men the way to brotherhood, defined as living
      together harmoniously. The signs of this that I see I find greatly

      The poem is by Hafiz, of course. The vast majority of hafiz-readers
      live in the east, and most of them use hafiz' Divan (collected poetry)
      as an oracle, much as we might use the I Ching, the Tarot, or Runes.
      Bibliomancy is the technical term, and they just turn to a random page
      to read the answer to their question. For melody, here is a poem, and I
      hope it comforts you; even if you resent my remarks, I hope you know
      that old Hafiz only wants to help, and he knows everything and his been
      everyone everywhere.

      *Tired of Speaking Sweetly*

      Love wants to reach out and manhandle us,
      Break all our teacup talk of God.

      If you had the courage and
      Could give the Beloved His choice, some nights,
      He would just drag you around the room
      By your hair,
      Ripping from your grip all those toys in the world
      That bring you no joy.

      Love sometimes gets tired of speaking sweetly
      And wants to rip to shreds
      All your erroneous notions of truth

      That make you fight within yourself, dear one,
      And with others,

      Causing the world to weep
      On too many fine days.

      God wants to manhandle us,
      Lock us inside of a tiny room with Himself
      And practice His dropkick.

      The Beloved sometimes wants
      To do us a great favor:

      Hold us upside down
      And shake all the nonsense out.

      But when we hear
      He is in such a "playful drunken mood"

      Most everyone I know
      Quickly packs their bags and hightails it
      Out of town.

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