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NDS Highlights for Sunday, December 18, 2000

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  • Mark Otter
    With the intriguing subject line turtles all the way up , White Wolf quotes Ken Wilbur: ...white wolfe has been on yet another Ken Wilbur kick lately...the
    Message 1 of 1 , Dec 18, 2000
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      With the intriguing subject line "turtles all the way up", White Wolf
      quotes Ken Wilbur:

      ...white wolfe has been on yet another Ken Wilbur kick lately...the new
      edition of "SES" ....ahwooo....waxing through metaphysics into
      mysticism....i like it...tastes like a brew that is part Teilhard de
      Chardin and part Stephen Hawking it does....what lies beyond....? ^^~~~

      "And that is the truth common to all omega-point theorists (and any
      decent theorist is an omega-point theorist). Assuming that their
      contexts are well-founded, and assuming that they do not engage in
      reductionism, then there is much we can learn from each of these types
      of theorists. They always point to ways beyond our present perception,
      and assuming their contexts are genuine, they are right: we will never
      be happy until we, too, can live with a larger horizon. Until we, too,
      can accept the therapia of embracing gently a greater depth....

      And a final Omega Point? That would imply a final Whole, and there is
      no such holon anywhere in manifest existence. But perhaps we can
      interpret it differently. Who knows, perhaps telos, perhaps Eros, moves
      the entire Kosmos, and God may indeed be an all-embracing chaotic
      Attractor, acting, as Whitehead said, throughout the world by gentle
      persuasion toward love."
      "Sex, Ecology and Spirituality

      further up and further in,

      white wolfe

      Jerry posted a compassionate plea not to marginalize folks who take

      Drugs can have very different effects on people. I consider people who
      are taking medication for some psychological reason to belong to a
      marginalized group. They seem to be discounted in many ways. With all
      the crap that's breathed and all the psychological crap everyone's
      exposed to, with the swampiness of lovelessness that coats everyone's
      face, hands and clothes, who is to judge another swamp creature?

      We are all living under totally unnatural often loveless conditions, but
      we're too accustomed to it to think there is anything wrong. All anyone
      knows is a moment of clarity and then the possibility of expanding it. A
      person on medication can know that too and can know love. People on no
      medication may never know it and may never know love.

      I work with schizophrenics who are on medication, and some have
      responsible jobs, live on their own, make good judgments, are sought out
      for their unique knoweledge and experience, are trusted, listened to,
      called on for support, and are supported by others because they have
      challenging times.

      All people need to be listened to and trusted in this moment. Tim, I
      hope you'll join us in the nondual movement toward world change and
      worldwide acceptance of all people and the earth. There will be a new
      website and possibly a new list. For now I invite anyone interested to
      join Ed's list at <http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/nondualdialog>

      By the way, there is no movement away from this list, on my part. This
      list is exceedingly important, and I hope it will grow. It will probably
      be too radical for many that will be drawn to this new nondual
      activism. However I want those people to eventually find their ways
      here and to go through the process that occurs here. Very interesting
      times for this list could be on the near horizon.

      As a final note, I'll be attending the Inner Directions conference in
      March and there I hope to express to many the new movement of nondual
      activism. I can feel it in my bones that people are ripe for more than
      the usual nondual talk. I can feel it.

      Thanks to everyone for listening.


      cee posted this short gem:

      snip from

      Song of the Grass-Roof Hermitage by Shitou

      Turn around the light to shine within, then just return.
      The vast inconceivable source can't be faced or turned away from.

      Harsha made an eloquent plea for ahimsa:

      In the Jaina tradition, it is customary for a person to literally pull
      out his hair in 5 or 6 chunks before embarking upon the career of a
      monk. I was once told that the method is precise and the hair are rooted
      out in such a way that injury is minimized and healing takes place in
      time. Of course some bleeding and pain has to be expected in such
      an endeavor. There is no doubt that some people like my teacher embarked
      on such practices willingly with anticipation and joy.

      When I was very young it was difficult for me to understand why a
      religion that has nonviolence as its primal principle would support a
      practice causing pain to the body. Of course, I do not object to people
      following the ancient traditions and other ascetic practices such as
      fasting and pranayama for the right reasons if their heart calls for it.

      One time I heard my teacher say something and the gist of it was that he
      became progressively more nonviolent towards himself and in his outlook
      and spiritual practices as he got older. That makes sense to me now.
      Youth is associated with great energy and enthusiasm but also with
      violence in various forms, even in ascetic practices. This seems to be
      particularly true of males. Age and experience can sometimes give us
      perspective and wisdom if the seeds were there in the youth. It seems,
      as we look around, that life is fragile and one is subjected to enough
      suffering as it is without needing to engage in behaviors and practices
      that cause more pain to one self and others.

      There is the coming together and there is the parting. This is the
      nature of all things. Knowing this deeply is sufficient to make one want
      to embrace every living being and give all of one's love.

      I got the following Haiku from David Hodges website.

      Cry not insects!
      Lovers, even the Stars,
      Must part.

      White Wolfe shared his mystical meditative state with us by posting a
      new poem:

      ...white wolfe sends you these thoughts born of this morning's lectio
      divina...^^ ~~~~

      further up and further in,
      white wolfe

      Advent Meditation on the Christ Child

      The hoary season of winter is upon us,
      The mountain in stillness lies beyond
      Its snowy summit glistening is golden light
      The glare refracting its sharp edges

      Melting them into the cerulean blue

      Oh, that I were a cloud drifting in that blue
      Or better yet, a golden eagle winging upward
      I would sail beyond the summits sharp edges
      into the retreating seamless womb of empty sky
      through the gold source of all that is bright & holy

      There, further up and further into my dreams
      I would travel with brilliant saints into eternity
      I would fly with dark angels on amethyst wings
      beyond the infinitely unfolding manifestations
      and touch truth and beauty, embrace love itself.

      I would find my arms cradling a holy infant
      I would find myself nourishing a sweet child
      I would look upon a face that is my own face
      I would gaze into the mirror of sapphire eyes
      I would sing the name that cannot be spoken

      Myself melting into the cerulean blue
      My sharp edges shattering in the glare
      Resting in the platinum heat of an icy summit
      On a holy mountain that has no final peak
      Amidst the sacred season of winter's heart &,

      Immaculate Heart and Mysterious Mother,
      Holy Child, Sweet Babe, First Born Infant,
      I return to abide in you who are always now,
      and forever will be, as it was in the beginning,
      the Christ Child returning to us in darkest winter.

      Mark Christopher Valentine
      Sunday, December 17, 2000

      "Christ came on earth to form contemplatives" Thomas Merton

      Dan said "word up" to Jerry:

      Dear Jerry,

      As all opens infinitely, nothing can be out of place,
      neither words written there or here.

      A reaction here to words received from there:

      "Nondual" is just another container for a human idea,
      fashioned as a conveyor of meaning.

      That which conveys no meaning is missed
      by adherence to a "nondual approach".

      An approach, a vehicle for crusading, a fight against
      darkness for those identifying with light. And nothing
      out of place, neither darkness nor light.

      "Nondual" then takes its place in the pantheon of words
      used to evoke responses, incite "intervention", and
      so on. It becomes incentive for action, for those
      who tire of speech, those who want to really
      "feel" it.

      Thank you for showing "nonduality" for what it is -
      just another container, just another word.

      What lies beyond the words and activities,
      the interventions and feelings?

      Only the hand which is trying to grasp itself.


      Gene Poole delivered a sort of "nondual Baptist Minister's invective"
      about human conditioning:

      Tim wrote to Jerry:
      > "By the way, just as a matter of input, the idea of mixing
      > "nonduality" and "politics" seems rather risky here. There
      > are too many traps and pitfalls

      Not to mention, trips and pratfalls...

      > (as seen from this angle).
      > It could even result in an absolute dictatorship or
      > totalitarian regime. "

      Yes, and would that be a 'dream' or a 'nightmare'?

      Again, it all depends on perspective.

      It might be said, that we are already living under the harsh rule of a
      totalitarian regime, that being the iron fist(s) of the Dark Masters of
      the World-Dream. Yes, if you think about it, it is not about any
      significant restriction of 'freedom' on the level of body, at least here
      and now in the USA. No, it is about a brutal species of self-censorship,
      a form of abuse that is passed along from parent to child.

      How is it, do you reason, that we (pardon the expression, please) are
      most of us, struggling to the surface, in slow motion, turgid bubbles
      rising through molasses? So retarded, as to not know up from down?
      Unable to 'think (ones) way out of a paper bag'? Effort expended,
      counted against our allotment of days, to no desired effect? Mortality
      weighing in like an anvil, and daily worries pounding like a smithy's
      hammer, on the too-malleable billet of ego? Personality extruded,
      pasta-like, then to be parboiled into stunned exhaustion?

      As we lay passively on the broiler-rack of life, our dyslexic chef has
      amnesia; deaf to the timer, oblivious to the odor of boiling
      cerebral-spinal fluid, we languish long past done, yet wait to be turned
      over, to repeat the treatment. Basted in our own narcissistic impulses,
      unable to lift a finger without permission from our own inhabiting Dark
      Master of Censorship, twitching we gibe, throwing salt over the
      shoulder, to dispel superstition. To avoid awakening another, is the
      task, lest we be blasted; heaven forbid, that any should offend by
      exampling awake, to the minions of enforced banality; no, crucifixion is
      the penalty, as our dear 'brothers of the cloth' are quick to remind, by
      application of symbol, if not by word.

      And just who, you might ask (or you might not ask, you might be afraid
      to know, and you refuse to believe anyone really knows; denial, the best
      defense against insight!) are these putative 'Dark Masters' to whom my
      allusion refers? A conspiracy, no; but a 'transpiracy', yes!

      You see, what has transpired, is the formation of a self-policing
      police-state, the ideal, headless form of totalitarianism; and this is
      in place, as the glorious 'world' which commerce, police powers, and
      military forces, are in service of. Headless, but for perhaps a popular
      figurehead, one conveniently full of air, and counting for nothing; or
      many, tragically full of shit, and who count, but only to ten.

      Our anarchist brethren refer to 'it' as 'the spectacle', a creation to
      surpass Ringling Bros show, but faded to commonplace, thus lost to the
      critical faculties, be there any surviving. Harkening only to the
      imperative of preservation, the populat unconsciously quivers,
      ameba-like, engulfing and devouring its own children, as well as
      anything else within reach. Forever moving, devouring, and leaving a
      trail of wretched effluvial waste, the mass-movement of self-imposed
      moronicism knows only a blind hunger, and is bereft of any kin of

      Wholly an orphan, it parents long-dead, it lives by its scars; reliving
      the wound, and lashing itself as punishment for having the sensitivity
      to know, that it is indeed 'wrong'. Perhaps that is the ploy, after all;
      to prevent the arising of what is ordained by nature to bloom, or
      failing that, to prune the budded flowers from the swaying stalks,
      before time of opening, thus never to grapple with any force, which
      would hold up the mirror, a sure sentence of death, if not eternal
      existential agony.

      So surely enforced upon self, as conditioned, it is only natural and
      automatic, that such strictures, threats, and chastisements should also
      befall the 'others' of this realm, basking as they do, and gamboling
      'neath the sun of darkest night, seeing nothing, eyes yet unopened.
      What better prey, could any totalitarian dictator stalk, on the way to
      World-Conquest? Who more suited to move about the pawns on the board,
      than the chairman of the board? And who would that be, we have all had
      the dream, it is oneself, foot or leg caught in a closing door, the
      crowd coming ever-nearer, the ultimate embarrassment of being
      found-out, and yet, being willing to die, rather than surrender.

      Strange, is it not, to resist the insight, issuing as it does from
      within, as though it be external enemy; refusal to make conscious, that
      'ungodly' din within, preferring the peace of isolation, of forced
      separation? Martyred so, impaled upon the dull pike of narcissistic
      denial, awaiting the arrival of the buzzards of conscience, too
      exhausted to even squirm in this unreal dilemma, knowing that the eyes
      will be first to be a-plucked, and next the liver? Is there no reprieve,
      no balm to relieve, no fable remedial, to believe?

      Yes, the group-mind churns, converting the milk of Grace into the butter
      of sepulchral narcosis, love a far-away near-impossibility, present
      wounds being the woeful foreground of the moment. And these wounds,
      self-inflicted as they may be, are categorically blamed upon the other,
      thus to continue the thin justification for continued isolation, and the
      illicit motive for the sniping war upon other. And these I describe, are
      the shock-troops of the headless police-state, having been reduced to
      the most base galvanic reaction, a punch the natural response to a

      Who among us, would dare raise voice against this deathly majority, thus
      to risk immediate lynching? Has anyone so purified oneself, as to herald
      the arising of immunity to the authoritarian impulse? Is it not,
      instead, a proud comparison of self to the relative scale of perceived
      dysfunction, the self-anointing of would-be king, standing proudly upon
      the same scaffold of judgement, as those condemned? Is not this game of
      self-deception fairly (or unfairly) universal? Upon what basis, does any
      person scale themselves as more, or less, fit to speak or act in regard
      to this cunning conundrum?

      Now arrives the key, the unimaginable, the unspeakable, the
      indescribable, or so it is described, by its adherents; once grasped, or
      at least claimed, this key is the freedom from the bondage of isolation;
      ironically, isolation may remain, yet the experience is now stated to be
      blissful, this itself being judged a worthy conversion, yet one whose
      method is available only to those who hold the magical key of

      Easy it is, to mimic the speaking of those who have escaped what is
      nothing, thus to begin the mantra of self-mesmerization; yet, this
      mimicry is easily seen, and is thus a mockery, itself a giveaway, a
      tip-off, to the terrible price of self-deception paid into a veritable
      black hole, a bottomless pit of imaginary perdition. Oh, that something
      could be 'done' about this, were anyone honest enough to know where to
      start; lacking this vital point, darts of good intentions are thrown by
      a blindfolded player, most of which ricochet to implant deeply into the
      buttocks of the thrower. Little known and less seen, is the bulls-eye
      of the target, the smiling face of 'you' yourself, clown-faced in no
      makeup, or is it all makeup? Prefering to 'honk' the nose of others, our
      folly remains sublimated and simultaneously projected, compiling 'other'
      as did Victor Frankestein assemble his 'monster', who later turned
      against his own creator.

      How to escape, the stalkings of our own created identity-monster? Does
      it do, to narcotize the beast, thus to allay the anxiety which presages
      certain death? Or is it better, to righteously scourge this twitching,
      smiling/frowning/laughing/crying 'creation' unto the deepest pits of
      hell? What we see, is what we are comfortable with; decrying 'ego',
      being the same as decrying 'skin', leads to drastic measures, and not
      roundabout but directly, to the judgement of self as being 'greater'
      than one who is not indulging this particular form of 'self-help'. Call
      'them' ignorant, call them blind, they are always with us, as our
      internal endowment of "I" structures, loving and battling, conniving and
      strutting, always active, filling us with myriad chorus of contradictory
      impulses. To be, or not to be... to do, or not to do? Chocolate, or
      vanilla? The 'nonself' of course, prefers strawberry...

      And what of our aggressions, galvanic reactions all, and denial of the
      fear which underlies such twitchings? Is it not time, to account for
      such rampant and chronically upsetting phenom? Or can we go on as we
      are, after defining everything as 'nothing', and 'nothing' as
      everything? To which piper, do we pay, for our dance-tune? Has the ear
      been developed, to hear the subtle differences between enlightened
      pipings, and otherwise? And does this wisdom precede the holding of the
      key, of follow that event, imagined or real? If there is a key, is there
      also a lock, and if so, can it be picked? Or perhaps, we may exhale
      ourselves as a breath of smoke, thus to craftily infiltrate the keyhole,
      making the entire journey, needless?

      Nay, though the heart may be aroused, and perspiration may begin, such
      considerations are futile, for as we have been told repeatedly, nothing
      is real, and thus no traction can be gained; still, wheels spinning,
      we compete to see who can lay the longest strip of rubber. Over-revved,
      the difference-engine of mind threatens to throw a rod; and this is
      called 'suffering', by the frustrated seekers of difference. Knowing
      not, yet not knowing, they proceed lemming-like to the brink of
      extinction, convinced of their own nothingness, forgetting that one
      which is actually not real, cannot suffer but imagined pains...
      conveniently occupied by this heroic task, marching onward into the dawn
      of a never-ending day, hallucinating in perfect harmony, we walk on,
      shoulder to shoulder, heart to heart, for the sheer hell of it...

      ==Gene Poole==

      Christiana replied:

      Dear Gene..

      Your voice is unique, in breadth and as point. Your recent writings are
      like Zeus rising up, roaring thunderously, lest the minor characters in
      our internal circus may not hear. You have my attention. You've shocked
      some (characters) to death.

      I'd like to engage in an inquiry (sensed as waking to and beyond the
      dream) with you. Recently you spoke of Rudolf Steiner's views on the
      "Luciferic" (fire) force. I assume then, that you also know of his views
      on the Ahrimanic (cold) force (said to be entering human history at this
      time); as well as his "Christ impulse". It's one language model of many.

      While I am no longer an active student of his work, some of the lenses
      he offers seem relevant. I hear the tenor of what you are addressing
      with this post, as the everpresent, perhaps flourishing human tendency
      toward this coldness. My understanding of how he describes this is an
      "indication" of greater tendency towards complacency; narcissism; group
      thought; self-cultural deception; reductionist, flatlander easement ...
      issues which you and Terry have pointed to in different directional
      directives. We see this "dumbing down" everywhere... including within

      A visionary impulse seems to be arising in Jerry. A call to action.
      Terry adds another spark. Ed another. You another. I add mine. As Jerry
      points out. Our sparks *appear* through different matrix constellations,
      yet beyond the matrices, the same flint.

      The challenge, as I see it, is to both see through the competition
      (heat) for _memory-space_ (within our own design and as position
      with/against other designs); as well as, to be ever vigilent for when
      we assume we are a finished design (even an enlightened one) (cold).

      Many of us, of the generation who cut our adult teeth on social
      activism, were moved by an authentic impulse which got either twisted in
      the crucible of competing criteria or cooled down through cynicism or a
      sense of impotence.

      So, assuming an everpresent "higher-order" impulse arising; how to get
      out of our own "moronic" way, seems the question. Before we can
      "organize" nondually (whatever that dream might mean?) it would seem
      that an awareness of the forces at play in our mechanism need to be
      understood and offered up. In all my years of reading, listening, and
      observing, I've met no one more qualified than you, to point clearly to
      the operating mechanics, in a full range of metaphoric language models.
      You could only do so, as one who is a living voice of the impulse... a
      rarity amongst so many memorex voices. This places you and us, in a
      unique position.

      I don't mean to place a laurel of projected specialness on your head,
      Gene. I mean more that the echo of your living voice keeps me awake to
      the duplicity of idealism and apathy. Much as Dan's living voice serves
      to flatten out my storyline.

      As a long time observer of the self-organizing-system of life, I know
      that I only participate fully with beginner's mind. Clearing through the
      underbush of dross is endlessly going on. The kernal (of vitality) heard
      softly and loudly in places such as NDS, clears the organ of perception.

      Now as we turn our gaze to "organizing", I ask.. Is there an Organ
      self-organ-izing as organization? Will it's fleshy matter, pulsed as
      harmonic space, through 900 pipes, become known? Will those who are
      tasting "abiding" (absent of heat or cold) rise up like a Phoenix from
      the ashes of identity, through sharing and serving as one. Can this
      movement occur absent of idealized criteria?

      The recent Presidential stalemate felt metaphoric, to me, as symbol of
      our need for self-governance. Perhaps, Jerry's call is also of this
      nature. Somehow.. all these various thoughts seem of a piece. I hope
      some of the view is communicated.

      Thanks for listening. Perhaps, this is very different from your view.
      My inquiry is whether and how any of this touches what you see. Of
      course, I am also open to what is not being seen ... through shared

      seeing beyond "the sheer hell of it"

      Jan provided some perspective on Jerry's nondual activism campaign:

      A little story...

      ºI'm working out a couple of things
      ºwith a web hosting company in town and then there will be a new website
      ºnonduality.net that will be dedicated to nonduality and activism. [...]

      Activism... It reminds of the period I was an activist at technical
      university. What I learned from it is that as a rule, "normal"
      activism often results in "sweeping the evil from one location to
      another". The so much despised military parade, abused to popularize the
      army as to compensate for the horrible pictures from the 'Nam war that
      could be seen on a daily basis, simply moved to the city where the
      military academy is located. In Japan, nature is protected but the rain
      forests in South-East Asia are chopped instead; two examples and there
      are many more...

      In this world, money is priority number one; people have become
      dispensable so multinational companies can sweep work from one country
      or continent to another and this is happening already with work that can
      be distributed and collected via the Internet.

      In Roman times, the people wanted "bread and circuses" - bread became
      TV-dinner + beer& snacks, circuses of every possible kind can be viewed
      worldwide at the push of a button. Nothing really changed, apart from
      "local" to "global".

      Essentially, in_duality_caught_man is irrational...Arguments don't
      convince and due to the circuses, sensory overload has reached a point
      where an emotional stimulus will be absorbed as if by a litter box...
      "Free Tibet, don't buy Chinese" is such an example of a failed action -
      despite the horror stories. Aids, TB, and malaria still are causing many
      deaths but alleviating that suffering has a lower priority then sending
      expensive toys to the moon or Mars.

      Of course there are cases where improvement took place - for instance
      the condition of people in the slums of Latin-America - it could be
      called a "bottom up" action (as opposed to "top down"). But the general
      picture is that of cleaning the floor while the pigs are shitting. That
      doesn't mean stop cleaning, but throw the pigs out first :>)

      In Rosicrucianism, stories like the above are used to show the
      hopelessness of "worldly" striving, as the essentially irrational nature
      of what they call "a-regenerated man" doesn't allow for a fundamental
      change (as opposed to sweeping "evils" from one location to another)
      to take place. Hence their advice, to 'realize' the 'eternal now',
      fundamentally changing man.


      Jerry shed some more light on his thinking:

      My radar could be wrong, and it's entirely possible I won't get to talk
      to so many people at Inner Directions. I'm not an invited speaker. But I
      sense that people will be receptive and will have been moving in the
      same direction. I don't see myself selling anything, simply talking to
      people about what they've already contemplated. What I'll be expressing
      is that I'm interested in expanding the process that occurs especially
      on this list.

      There is a process that occurs here, a process that people go through
      when they spend time here and listen. Somehow I see the energy of that
      process being applied to the world political, social, cultural stages.
      How? First the people who are active on those stages have to be
      identified. Then people have to consider the process they have been
      through, the process which brought them to nondual understanding,
      whether the process happened on the internet or in person with a
      teacher. I see a coming together of people standing alone as nondual
      realizers, and of people standing arm in arm on world stages. I think
      these people need each other; there will be some coming together. The
      direction I'm moving is one of creating a space for people to come
      together. I'm not telling people what to do or what causes to support. I
      don't want to function at that level.


      Jerry also provided insight into his diet...

      I'm sure there will bowls full of stardust for those who want stardust,
      and bowls full of potato salad for those who want potato salad. A chop
      liver mold in the shape of Eckhart Tolle. Me, I'll hanging out near the

      And finished up with a weather report:

      I'm certainly not out to change the world or to urge any specific
      striving at all. Change has already occurred and it sits like a cloud. I
      will try to find ways to increase its moisture content and maybe some
      day it will rain.

      Humbly submitted,
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