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Moonday december 11th

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  • andrew macnab
    ... Dear Chaz, The concept of Self is one way to teach. The concept no-self is another way to teach. Neither self nor no-self is still another way. No
    Message 1 of 1 , Dec 12, 2000

      >Is it because something does not quite jell? Does humanity after
      >thousands of years not automatically embrace this concept of a "Self"
      >because it does not really exist?

      Dear Chaz,

      The concept of "Self" is one way to teach.
      The concept "no-self" is another way to teach.
      "Neither self nor no-self" is still another way.

      No concept "really exists", and concepts are
      used to show that the categories of
      "existence" and "nonexistence" are
      themselves conceptual.

      Regarding "what is not conceptual" --
      that can never be said. The inherent
      limitations of conceptualization
      can be indicated, and these
      limits are involved in the
      concept of "the nonconceptual reality"
      as well.



      John Metzger sent a Kerouac poem:

      No,--what is God?
      The impossible, the impeachable
      Unimpeachable Prezi-dent
      Of the Pepsodent Universe
      But with no body & no brain
      no business and no tie
      no candle and no high
      no wise and no smart guy
      no nothing, no no-nothing,
      no anything, no-word, yes-word,
      everything, anything, God,
      the guy that ain't a guy,
      the thing that can't be
      and can
      and is
      and isn't

      --Jack Kerouac



      < Have you ever tried to fit a square peg into a round hole?
      ยบ >>

      With a peg made of a flexible material like soft cheese, it's easy <S>


      Thanks Tim and Sandeep,

      I remember Sandeep's letter as though it came today. However I responded
      to him I know it wasn't satisfactory, nor would it be today. The
      letter's questions apply as much today as they did yesterday. How does
      this nondualism apply to everyday life? That question underlies the
      personality of the list. People do hear that question, I believe. It's
      become the culture here.

      To have addressed it, and to have sustained and increased the population
      addressing it, without going ga-ga over some one spiritual personality
      or school of thought, is probably to be considered an accomplishment of
      some kind. I remember my brother Rick -- a Born-Again Christian --
      saying he thought we were a bunch of kids running free on a deserted
      island with no leader or discipline. Lord of the Flies, is that the
      book? We might appear that way to some.



      Thank you for your response, Terry. I understand the demands everyday
      life has on one's time and energy. Very few have lives or jobs that
      allow them to hop onto the internet a few hours every day.

      Having been involved in these lists since the first day, I see how many
      have come together and formed a structure which serves a certain
      purpose. There are several nonduality email lists which are part of
      that structure. Their purpose is to serve as a place of communion for
      people naturally having the nondual perspective, and willing to share
      and develop it.

      I believe that those who are involved in these lists can somehow
      picture their involvement as being with some kind of group. Without
      trying to describe it, something is pictured or imaged that describes
      the communion. It is know visually, viscerally, emotionally, mentally,
      and so on. The communion is brought into one's senses and being. That
      kind of consciousness or picturing is what I think could be built upon.

      Regarding political action, I have no model to refer to. I am not
      calling for anyone to do anything than what they are already doing. The
      action I'm really calling for is strictly attentional. What I do invite
      is simply awareness that when anything is done in the way of activism,
      political influence, social change, is that it be done with an
      awareness that the visualized and felt group of which each one is a
      part, is doing the the act. It's hard to say what I've just said
      without it sounding like mind control. However, I'm talking to people
      who are artists at attentional refinement and I trust I'm being heard
      in the purist way possible.

      Although I've said let's start a political party, and though there's
      even been discussion of forming retreat centers and even buying a house
      several of us could live in, I think all those ideas are not as big,
      important or fundamental a simple change in attention as described in
      the preceding paragraph.

      Therefore, all I suggest is that a person do nothing other than what
      they are doing -- I'm not going to recommend causes we 'should' be
      fighting for. The causes aren't the point. All I ask is that when
      anything is done, whatever it is, is that it be done not by the
      individual but by the felt group. I say this at the risk of sounding
      cultish, however I trust that people 'know what I'm talking about.'

      That is the kind of action I would call for. It's strictly attentional.
      Out of that all kinds of movements and events would crystallize,
      including specific political actions. But to seek political change
      without the change in attention might not be so effective.

      Now, to describe my call for action to any group other than
      nondualists, would be inviting blank stares, mockery, accusations of
      mind control, or, at best, support from New Age or religious groups
      which might be unable to accept a call for a slight attentional
      movement without incorporating it into a ritual, and not without
      standing firmly for that ritual and its particulars.

      We don't need rituals unless ritual is part of a person's real culture,
      as in the case of the Original People or part of an individual's
      personal and private ritual (we probably all have those). Let people
      practice their rituals. There's no specific rituals associated with
      this call for an attentional shift. I sense, Terry, that one could be
      put off by the ritualistic nature of the retreat opening near you when
      you say "are based on a special reverence for certain materials."

      That, then, is the political agenda that I know. It's not like any
      other political agenda. It's a very simple way of changing
      consciousness. When combined with traditional ways of changing
      consciousness, such as debate, demonstration, education, expression
      through different media, the world itself, civilization itself changes.

      I hope I've struck the right chord with my description.

      How does this fit into your outlook?



      I completely agree with your call to attentional action. (rather than
      intentional, although both "a" and "in" imply a negation). Certainly
      "without tension" is a call to the heart...

      But, what is this "group" thing? I guess what I would like to try out,
      and invite all those who are interested to practice with me, is to lose
      the idea of groups entirely. So as I work with attention, I try not to
      surround it with labels related to agglomerations of humans, but to
      allow it to cover all sentient beings. (May all beings be happy, May
      all beings be free.)

      So if I am understanding your conversation with Terry, you are
      suggesting and I am supporting the idea, that in all dealings with
      humans, we disassociate ourselves from a perception of ourselves as
      individuals doing an action, and reassociate ourselves as a group. What
      I am wondering is should we make that group all inclusive, so that the
      "felt group" is not smaller than the entire field of consciousness. Is
      this what you are proposing,, or are you proposing an intermediate step,
      by which we do things not as Jerry or Mark, or Terry, but as specific
      groups, such as Vipassanists, or Nondualists? (and in the latter case,
      would it not be an oxymoron to be part of a group of people calling
      themselves nondualists?)

      just some paradoxical musings,


      Hi Mark,

      First, I appreciate being able to freely say the things I do in this
      crowd. I guess I'm calling for less than the most nondual posturing.
      Individuals can understand what it means to 'do nothing' even while
      being ambitious in life. But what about recognized groups? A group can
      understand what it means to 'do nothing' and yet take action. I see no
      reason to name or put boundaries on the 'felt group'. It may or may not
      consist of some people on this list. The group needs no name. However
      each individual would be able to identify a group they are part of. For
      me the felt group is a few email lists, a few friends past and present,
      a few world teachers, and subtle beings. Each person has to be
      responsible for what the felt group comprises. I ask people to think
      about acting as the felt group. It's a way of concentrating power
      through an intermediate group, as you say. If anyone thinks the
      suggestion is too occult and mystery school-ish, they can ignore it. The
      idea is out there and I appreciate being able to express it and have it
      receive serious consideration. That's an amazing thing. Thank you, Mark.



      I have heard that when students gathered around the ancient Sage
      Dakshinamurti for instructions, he uttered not a single word. It is said
      that His Silence Is the Teaching.

      Love to all


      0: Do words always lead to actions?

      1: Only if they are spoken.

      0: Does the mind speak?

      1: The mind speaks between each letter and each word.

      0: What does the mind say?

      1: The mind does not 'say'. The mind 'balances the words' and
      the 'body of the mind' balances the 'actions' of the mind. The
      aim 'then' the full bodied mind.

      0: I am spirit and holy is my name. I speak for my 'self'. For whom
      do you speak?

      1: You have no 'self'.

      0: 'Then' to whom do I speak?

      1: I am no-thing thus, you only see what you want to see.

      0: Is what you 'see' what you 'know'?

      1: No. What I 'see' is what 'I am'. What I 'know' is what 'I am'.
      What 'I am' is what I 'see and know' as my 'self'.

      0: How does one measure time?

      1: One does not measure time, one measures moments.

      0: How does one measure moments?

      1: The only way one can... fully... or not.

      0: -

      1: -

      So-called 'mistakes must be integrated' into 'every subject' in order
      to separate those that follow blindly and those that lead the search
      for the corrections.

      1: I believe that the good shall always return.

      0: And the bad?

      1: I like to to think that the 'bad' will change 'in' time as
      the 'good' change the 'direction' of time' and the people simply
      change. Not like sheep more like 'reasoning observers' looking for
      a 'trend, way, place, whatever' that leads to what is known.

      Gentle Peace.


      Gloria sent a quote from Ramana Maharshi:

      People often ask how the mind is controlled.
      I say to them, 'Show me the mind and then
      you will know what to do.' The fact is that
      the mind is only a bundle of thoughts. How can
      you extinguish it by the thought of doing so
      or by a desire? Your thoughts and desires are
      part and parcel of the mind. The mind is simply
      fattened by new thoughts rising up. Therefore
      it is foolish to attempt to kill the mind by
      means of the mind. The only way of doing it is
      to find its source and hold on to it. The mind
      will then fade away of its own accord.

      - Sri Ramana Maharshi



      > Hi Chaz,
      > What's your native language??

      I speak strine Greg, pronounced with flat gnarly laid back lazy
      sunday arvo intonation :) I speak totally rad, funky-do, bloody
      bargus, chook woopee Australian english, not the best, but we get off
      on it ;)

      ....the fuggly mega try hard snot gurgling nigel :)`


      Fear and Stuff

      The great anticipation
      Keeps you endlessly seeking
      Afraid you'll never reach the day
      Of your future awakening.

      All that stuff
      You hold so dear
      Let it go my love
      Lose the silly fear.

      Your life has a meaning
      Or so you do perceive
      Everything has a purpose
      Or so you do believe.

      You knocked so loud
      And the door opened wide
      Now you just stammer and stare
      Why don't you go inside?

      Sorry pretty baby
      I guess you know it's true
      All of your precious baggage
      Can't go in with you.

      Your path has taken you far
      Now you've made a solemn pledge
      To take that last little step when you're
      Oh so close to the edge.

      Drop everything
      Take a run and jump
      Or just stand and stare
      Remaining the eternal chump!

      Peace - Michael
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