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NDS Highlights for Sunday, 11/10/00

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  • Mark Otter
    Dear Reader, This Sunday was an active day with quite a lot to offer. I probably have clipped out some good stuff, but this is my take on the highlights: Chaz
    Message 1 of 1 , Dec 11, 2000
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      Dear Reader,

      This Sunday was an active day with quite a lot to offer. I probably
      have clipped out some good stuff, but this is my take on the highlights:

      Chaz continued an ongoing thread from Saturday:

      Dear Cee,

      If there is interest from yourself or anyone else here, i would like to
      look into these comments deeper.

      You wrote:
      >
      > if we are human beings in a world,....

      May i ask, why do you say if?

      >then we are engaged here in the
      > highest of human pursuits. the world benefits from us even having the
      conversation.

      Why do you consider the conversations here the highest of human pursuits
      and in which way does the world benefit?

      Anyone? Thank you
      Chaz

      Chaz also asked:

      Okay so all the scriptures have been saying for thousands of years that
      all doing occurs in the now and is derived from the Source.

      Does this mean that it is *The Source 'AS' human being* (using as yet
      less than half a brain) which allows all the starvation, torture and
      wars to continue on itself *The Source 'AS' Planet Earth?

      And does this mean that *The Source 'AS' Planet Earth* autonomously
      utilises itself as *The Source 'AS' active intelligent human doing NOW*
      to assist in repairing itself?

      And is *The Source AS Chaz* actually writing these not so cute little
      posts to itself?

      Please correct me where i'm wrong, but without excessive conceptualising
      thanks.

      Chaz

      Jan offered:

      The underlying assumptions are, that Life is one, everything is a
      manifestation of energy and all manifestations are interdependent.
      Self-realization (or whatever the name given) changes the energy flow
      and this in turn affects everything (in the same sense that a magnet
      will influence iron ), hence statements like Ramana's "the best one can
      do for society is to realize the Self". The little snag of course, is
      that only a few can actually "see" this to be a correct observation so
      it can't be an issue for discussion...

      Yet it is quite possible the ongoing course of events won't be changed
      "enough", the climate continuing to run away etc... Hence the "if", that
      ultimately, nothing really is happening...

      Love,
      Jan

      And Janet contributed:

      Hi Chaz,

      I think i understand what you are saying and was tempted to address this
      myself. Realization, does not mean accepting and doing nothing
      (averting your eyes....possibly). The Source helps those who helps
      themselves. I don't feel responsible for what i see, but i can
      certainly "play a role" if i do nothing at all. The Source has already
      planted the seed, by inspiring this recognition and bringing the topic
      on the list, and elsewhere, where mankind has recognized the issues.
      Sure there will be those whose life, and work, may be that of and
      environmentalist or human rights activist to bring positive change, and
      we all stand to gain or lose by how we support that effort (whether we
      make a living at it or not). i think people tend to believe, "well,
      there are people working on it, that's their job". But the true test of
      mankind overall is not always what you do to earn a living (for profit)
      but what you do for the highest good of all (which may not be something
      you profit from in a monetary way, but will benefit you and others for
      LIFE, even if not a direct benefit in this lifetime). just like the
      quote i sent in:

      True Measure:
      The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him
      absolutely no good.
      -Ann Landers

      Anyway, i hope this makes sense. it's just some thoughts, a
      perspective, if you will......nothing more, nothing less. Have a great
      Sunday :)
      Love and Peace, Janet

      Sandeep put in his two cents:

      Within phenomenality, indeed, functioning carries on, every moment. The
      form of functioning is creation -destruction-creation-destruction.

      At this very moment, close to a million cells die every second in the
      body-mind complex labelled Chaz and close to the same number are
      "born". Every second of the alloted life-span of the body-mind complex.

      This destruction-creation goes on every second and it is this very
      process which makes, sustains the body-mind complex named Chaz, what it
      is right now.

      No Advaita mumbo-jumbo but Medical Science.

      > And is *The Source AS Chaz* actually writing these not so cute little
      posts to itself?

      Functioning is what is going on all the time within phenomenality,
      irrespective of whether a "me-entity" believes the particular
      functioning is it's deed or the deed of a concept called the Source.

      Mis dos centavos
      Cheers,
      Sandeep

      In another thread, Dah posted:

      Dear Gill,

      Political activists want peace that fits their concepts.
      Utopians want peace based on security that
      their doing is aimed at the good.
      They want a world that reflects back to them their
      expectations for how a "good" world should be.

      Concealed in utopianism is regression.
      Concealed in political activism is the violence of the "me".
      The violent activity of the "me" is also concealed in the
      political action of conservatism that acts to keep things
      the way they are.

      Striving to keep things the same, or striving to make things
      change is equally the violence of "me".

      The kind of change that Klein wrote about is the change that
      occurs "automatically" as awareness no longer attaches to
      the delusions based on splits. It is change that is not
      of or from the "me", not about trying to make certain
      changes occur in phenomena that are observed. It is
      change from knowing the root of phenomena, the "how"
      of all "how's".

      Very few know this kind of change, because to detach from
      clingings to one-sided views means to release from
      everything good or pleasurable associated with
      "being me" and "having myself", and to release the activity
      against
      the "bad" which is to be done away with or placed
      "out there".

      To split is to place what is right against what is wrong,
      to attach to one side and fight against the other side.

      To split is to place right against wrong, to think that if
      I'm right, that makes someone else wrong. If someone
      else is right and has a different view from me, that is
      less right.

      Concealed within the split of placing right against wrong is
      a sense of lack. There is a lack of rightness in the world,
      which requires "me" to fix it, to increase the rightness.

      The very intention to increase the "rightness" in the world
      is the signal of "me's" activity. It leads to many wars,
      arguments, conflicts, etc.

      "By their fruits you shall know them" -- observe the fruits
      of discord, self-righteousness, needing to put "me" above
      "others", to have the "right perspective" that makes others
      wrong. It's always there when there is the striving for
      bettering reality. Those who identify with such beliefs
      always have ways to characterize others as stupid,
      ignorant, blind, lazy, uncaring, etc. It's easy to see
      the agenda of self promotion involved.

      The "me" is what makes the worlds of politics, business,
      family, culture, society go 'round. It is deeply imbedded
      in the very perception of body, self, and world
      inherent in/as the "collective human psyche".

      The ending of the "me-center" is truly revolutionary,
      although it doesn't occur because a good-intentioned
      "me" decided it should be that way.

      Love,
      Dan

      Michael pointed out the distinction between perception and apperception:

      Perception:

      Recognition and interpretation of sensory stimuli based chiefly on
      memory. The neurological processes by which such recognition and
      interpretation are effected

      Apperception:

      The process of understanding by which newly observed qualities of an
      object are related to past experience.

      Perception is based on the past.

      Apperception is grounded in the present.

      Perception sees the same qualities of an object over and over again.

      Apperception sees fresh new qualities of an object which are related to
      past experience.

      Perception is fixed and rigid.

      Apperception is open and flowing.

      Perception is an act of the brain.

      Apperception is an act of the heart.

      Perception is an automatic response generated by the brain.

      Apperception is logical, rational, and analytic thought.

      Perception is bondage and suffering.

      Apperception is peace and freedom.

      ~ ~ Michael D. Johnson ~ ~

      He also offered these:



      Verses which when heard awaken the Truth within us dissolving the
      association of "I with the body world idea

      Subject: Vedic Verse

      Truth alone conquers, not untruth. By truth is laid out the path
      leading to the Gods by which the rishis who have their desires
      fulfilled travel to where is that supreme abode of truth.

      Atharva Veda, Mundaka Upanishad 3.1.6

      Subject: Avadhuta Gita - Song of the Ever Free

      (Note: The Avadhut is the Atman. Having conquered the world, he abides
      as space-like being, immortality giving knowledge absolute)

      Chapter 7 Verse 6

      Brahman is all-pervading like space,
      and Its essential nature is pure and spotless.
      Therefore, how can there be division and multiplication,
      bondage and liberation, and other modifications in It?

      Subject: Vedic Verse

      Eye cannot see him, nor words reveal him; by the senses, austerity, or
      works he is not known. When the mind is cleansed by the grace of wisdom,

      he is seen by contemplation - the One without parts.

      Atharva Veda, Mundaka Upanishad 3.1.8

      Subject: New Testament verse
      "I am the Light of the world: he that followeth Me shall not walk in
      darkness, but shall have the Light of Life." John 8: 12

      (Note: Christ is the Atman, the subject "I" abiding singly as
      Light/Consciousness)

      Again:

      "I and my Father are one." John 10: 30

      (Note: The "Father" is Brahman, the "I AM THAT I AM" of Exodus 3:14.)

      Explaining how his Truth is the Truth of all, Christ states in John Ch
      15:

      "Abide in me, and I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
      except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.
      (verse 4)

      "I am the vine, you are the branches...apart from me you can do
      nothing." (verse 5)


      Subject: State of the Realized Being

      Blessed am I

      In freedom am I

      I am the infinite

      in my soul

      I can find no beginning

      no end

      All is my Self

      ___

      Who is the Self?

      The Master replies:

      "The Self luminous being who dwells within the lotus of the heart,
      surrounded by the senses and sense organs,
      and who is the light of the intellect, is that Self.
      Seek the Self through meditation."
      --THE UPANISHADS

      In Modern Day Terminology:

      Know the Self as the manufacturer of the vehicle,
      that which gives the vehicle life and meaning,
      the body as the vehicle itself,
      that which comes into existence and allows for movement,
      the motor as the senses and sense organs,
      that which operates mechanically and automatically,
      the discriminating intellect as the driver,
      that which chooses how fast, how slow, when and where to go,
      and the mind as the accelerator and the brakes
      that which creates movement and also stops it.

      ~ ~ Michael D. Johnson ~ ~

      ____

      Jerry informed us:


      Judi has started her own list. Here is the description with the address
      at the bottom. Congratulations and good luck, Judi.

      Jerry

      -----------------------------------

      This is a list for realizers and mature humans who aspire to such
      realization. It is for those that have been around the block one too
      many times and are now ready and willing to really start looking at the
      truth of and in themselves, at the ignorant suffering that's keeping
      them mired in the "seeker" identity and role. This is not a refuge for
      the emotionally immature or for those with psychological problems to
      work out -- the inveterate self-improvers, the humor-impaired, the "New
      Age" spirituality hobbyists and those merely seeking attention by
      gabbing about how blissful, happy, loving, smart, or even how dumb they
      think they are simply need not apply here. This is a list for those
      ready to cut through their own games, for those willing to
      wholeheartedly put themselves on the line for the undermining and the
      understanding of that whole nonsensical separate adventure in its
      entirety -- and it's for sharing the humor, the love, and the pure joy
      of finally realizing our true, newborn perceptual condition, a state
      that is not separation, but rather wholeness, freedom, consciousness
      itself.

      To those with hearts so moved, we invite you.

      Welcome Home.

      <http://www.egroups.com/group/TheEndOfTheRopeRanch>



      Melody contributed:

      It is the holding of an image
      of who I think I am,
      or should be,

      that creates the resistance
      for Life to "bump up against".

      Letting go of the image,
      there is a relaxing into
      Life
      just as It is.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      The Material of Life
      that gets rejected

      becomes the wrappings
      which bind us,

      restricting free movement.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Catching a glimpse....

      getting a peek.....

      of an automatic, unconscious response,

      is like discovering Alice's Looking Glass.

      Will you step into it,
      and see where it leads?


      Gill posted:

      Jean Klein writes (excerpt below) of only being able to change the world
      from consciousness. When Terry writes and asks why the enlightened don't
      get together and open taverns and break into prisons, what I understand
      him to mean is why don't the enlightened get together to raise the
      consciousness of society in general. Terry spoke of intelligence
      increasing exponentially, and there is a wonderful opportunity to watch
      that happen as those who realise the Truth of nonduality share more and
      more. Look how this list has grown as evidence of the increasing
      interest.

      As for breaking into prisons, I could be wrong but somehow I don't see
      Terry tearing off to the Halawa jail to free all of the inmates. Rather,
      that those who recognise the Truth can help, and more so by working
      together, to free those who still see themselves as separate individuals
      from the prisons they are incarcerated in.

      When enough people have seen the truth of how it is, there will not be
      the need for activists to go out and fight worthy causes. Some may see
      that as utopian and I would ask - what is the alternative?

      love, gill

      From 'Who Am I? The Sacred Quest' by Jean Klein:

      Q. Doesn't one have a personal responsibility to change things one feels
      are wrong?

      A. When you are free from the idea of being somebody, the problem of
      responsibility doesn't play a role. When you are no longer limited by
      the personality, there is intelligence, and acting is adequate from
      moment to moment. If you have any idea of being somebody, a friend,
      helper, political person, teacher, mother, father, and so on, you will
      only see the situation coloured by this image. It is a fractional view
      and be-cause it is partial it breeds conflict and reaction. Since the
      action did not appear and disappear in wholeness there will be residue.
      Before acting, one must understand the situation. To fully comprehend
      it, you must face the facts free from ideas. It must belong to your
      wholeness; otherwise you are stuck to the wheel of reaction where there
      is only relationship from concept to concept. When you become a
      professional doer you are no longer spontaneous. You can never create
      harmony. It is beautiful to be really nothing, without qualification.
      All that appears, appears in you and you act according to the appearance
      using your capital, intellectual, bodily, material, etc. Then all action
      is balanced.

      Q. You say don't become a professional do-gooder but what if that is my
      job? Also, I know that you yourself travel the globe doing good. We
      cannot just sit and let people suffer! No one who is starving is
      interested in self-inquiry. Biological survival must be taken care of
      first. This requires professionals.

      A. I don't say you must ignore the world but first you have to know how
      to face the facts properly, that is, free from the limited individual
      point of view. Our surroundings appear to us according to the stance we
      take. From the point of view of the body and senses, the world appears
      as sense perception. From the mental view the world appears as mind.
      From consciousness the world is only consciousness. When you leave here
      don't try to change anything. Only be aware that your ideas and actions
      stem from the mind. The moment you look at your surroundings from
      consciousness you will see things differently and seeing things
      differently your understanding and actions will be different. You can
      never change the world from the personal standpoint. You can only change
      society from the impersonal, from consciousness. The question often
      arises: how can I change society, I disagree with so many things?
      Realise that there can be no transformation unless action comes from a
      completely different view than before. In the personal realm you remain
      an accomplice with society. Creative action can only come when you see
      your surroundings from the point of view of consciousness. Then you are
      really related to society, the situation, the world. Otherwise, you
      remain related only to yourself, your reactions and resistances. See
      that society begins with you. You are your own nearest environment, so
      begin with yourself. When you learn how to look at your closest
      environment you will automatically know how to look at the broader
      environment. In this way of looking there's understanding, and
      understanding brings right acting. The moment you come to the living
      understanding, you won't need to ask me or anyone else what to do.

      Jan offered this along with a stunning photograph of a sunset:


      The sun neither rises nor sets
      Easily to be observed from outer space
      Yet the picture is suggestive of a sunset

      Phenomena arising and subsiding
      Like the sun seems to rise from the ocean and to subside
      in it
      Although that doesn't really happen

      Awareness neither rises nor sets
      Everything seems to arise and to subside in it
      Although that doesn't really happen

      Jan

      and Dan replied to Jan:


      Beautiful, Jan.
      Thanks - made my day!

      Awareness arises with all things,
      all things with awareness.

      We call birth the arising of awareness,
      death the ending of awareness,
      and so we are fooled by perceptions
      of sunrises and sunsets.

      When neither awareness nor things,
      say one true word!

      Love,
      Dan

      Christiana also resoponded to Jan:

      Is this all then, about perspective? Are you saying that upon lifting
      off and seeing the planet, one understands that arising and setting are
      merely a factor of perspective and location? Upon "awakening" (or.. a
      lifting off of the runway-planet of thought), then aperspectival vision
      occurs, through a shift in the locus of awareness. All perspectives
      yielding to no perspective. Does the unanswerable mystery reside in ....
      what invokes arising and setting?

      My craggy, inquiry comes from the perspective of the shore of daily
      human living; where self appears both *free of* and *bound by* gravity.
      At the *exact* point of the seeming arising of daily events, choice
      seems invoked. Choice of perspective, choice of action (appearing to be
      mitigated by perspective). Much has been said about volition and
      nonvolition. Yet, it seems here.. from the blurry edge.. that enormous
      personal volition is required to see and abide in Choice, amidst the
      myriad of choices clamoring for attention. Discernment of the most
      authentic resounding note seems an endless process of refinement.
      Inquiries such as 'to whom', clear the dross in the auditory bandwidth
      and the visual landscape. Yet there is always, still here, a sense of
      self listening, witnessing. Is this not so for those of you who say
      "nothing is happening"?

      I know many of you have addressed these topics gracefully and endlessly
      on these lists. Each brush stroke seems to widen the aperture, or quell
      the mind. I appreciate all of your time and authentic voice. There have
      been passages of clarity for me here... when turned inside out, the
      personal flotsam is seen, as a planet, contained in space; and the
      needle of attention abides more freely in the space. Yet from the
      vantage point of the daily human arising, the appearance of "something
      happening" seems to contract the needle's point into a groove seeming to
      invoke response.

      As a very personal example, right now, my lovely and sensitive 23 year
      old daughter is seriously depressed. She both burrows close to my heart
      for guidance; as well as, resists most of what we might speak about
      here. I have found that this requires (volition?) me to become very
      still. I rest in love with her, I listen to her, I listen for what is
      authentically peeking through her and try to gently guide her attention
      to this trueness. In this crucible of existence, it seems too abstract
      to hold "nothing is happening". I almost can't postulate how that
      perspective serves.

      Goodness.. I've come to this point in writing this, wondering what my
      point is? I'm not seeking strategies; nor languaged, meaning models;
      nor reminders that these ramblings come from an illusory self. I don't
      find that I am seeking anything, nor am I closed to any of your input.

      I am inquiring into surrender or practice of the *art of living*, within
      this growing understanding. Perhaps, I want to know how you live your
      lives as such.

      In Will's useful imagery..

      > You are "where thought meets the runway"
      >

      More often than not, this identity-vehicle is still operating as if
      encased in the plane, and slides on the slippery runway. In blessed
      moments, there is a lifting out of the vehicle and the
      no-plane/no-runway perspective shift, yields to a knowing or glimpsed
      intuition of what here is term "nonduality".

      I suppose, this voice today, moves from a lifelong intuitive grasp of
      something calling me forth. As such, I place here an open and humble
      request, for your energetic support (from the spacious pulse of living
      heart), as I flicker in and out of the gravitational pull and de-plane.

      I've been listening, writing and observing this for several hours. The
      point of origin which first moved me to write has receeded. Several
      others have come and gone. I will not go back and edit the beginning, as
      it is a process seamless piece. Ah, yes.. arising and subsiding. Is the
      salt from these pulsing ocean waves; binding, corroding or dissolving?
      Is there still a need to post this? Does it serve anything other than a
      record of a movement? A movement which only fleetingly appeared to occur
      in a place, within time, to a someone. Is the point to rest easy as a
      fleeting someone?

      If any of you are moved to respond, here or to me personally, I welcome
      your voice.

      with much love and gratitude,

      Christiana

      Dan responded:

      Enjoyed this post, Christiana - thanks!

      I am sorry to hear about your daughter's
      difficulty. Blessed be you and she.

      As you respond lovingly, the question
      of volition or nonvolition of love is moot.

      The loving response is "healing", the
      rationale as to whether it is volitional
      or not, is inconsequential.

      Similarly, the question as to whether
      there is or isn't a "point" to this,
      is itself "pointless".

      With no "point" posited, there is
      no "point" to be negated,
      and with no such "point", there is no
      center for "me" to inhabit.

      With no "center", from whence will "volition"
      arise? From whence will "causation" be
      caused to be?
      What can the word "volition"
      mean - except for the hypothetical
      activity of a nonentity - as such
      activity is construed for "purposes"
      of thought, social interaction, or
      organization of memory's images
      and concepts?

      The perspective "nothing is happening"
      is merely a "teaching tool" -- not
      a statement to be enshrined as
      if it encapsulates reality.

      "Nothing is happening" is useful if it
      "unhooks" the imbeddedness of
      awareness in/as the position that
      all of this as it appears is really
      happening as it appears.

      You wrote:
      >"Is there still a need to post this? Does it serve
      anything other than a
      >record of a movement? A movement which only fleetingly
      appeared to occur
      >in a place, within time, to a someone. Is the point to
      rest easy as a
      >fleeting someone?"

      This is posted, ultimately, not because of "need" (which
      is a perceived
      and conceptualized rationale), but because it is
      posted.

      This is, because this is.

      This record of a movement is itself moving.

      This record of a movement is itself moving.

      This record of a movement is itself moving.

      Where movement and nonmovement "meet",
      there can be no record of it.
      No traces found.

      Love,
      Dan

      Jan also replied:

      On 12/10/00 at 3:05 PM Christiana Duranczyk wrote:

      º(nbe.. this appears to have become a process piece.. begun at one
      point, ºyielding to a spectrum of others.. as I witness what it means to
      observe ºan arising moment.. each attempt at query, at catching a
      thought, ºradiated outward. The core of inquiry remains.. yet words
      fail... and ºheart is at peace.) º ºTo Jan.. and the
      fellowship of aperspectival vision logicians here.. º ºThank you for
      your "Sunset" post, particularly, as juxtaposed with an ºimage. As with
      cee's page, the added dimension of an image offers ºgreater clarity.
      Perhaps, suggesting that I learn through dimensions of ºvision.

      Jan: Since the banners disappeared, posting in HTML has become an option
      and for poems and other works of art, it offers the possibility to add
      a picture. Thanks to the improvements at E-groups, HTML posts can be
      read properly from the list website too - a tip for those receiving the
      digest that is stripped of HTML.


      Christiana: Is this all then, about perspective? Are you saying that
      upon lifting off and seeing the planet, one understands that arising and
      setting are merely a factor of perspective and location?

      Jan: Yes, rising and setting are a matter of perspective - the proper
      location will make it clear as a perception but understanding by itself
      would do, once it is known that the earth is rotating around its axis
      and around the sun. And this understanding of rotations is a matter of
      perception and perspective too.


      C: Upon "awakening" (or.. a ºlifting off of the runway-planet of
      thought), then aperspectival vision ºoccurs, through a shift in the
      locus of awareness. All perspectives ºyielding to no perspective. Does
      the unanswerable mystery reside in .... ºwhat invokes arising and
      setting?

      J: There is no verbal answer or "explanation" to the mystery... It can
      not be conveyed in words but does give rise to inspiration...

      º
      C: ...there is always, still here, a sense of ºself listening,
      witnessing. Is this not so for those of you who say º"nothing is
      happening"?

      J: How could anything "really" be happening, Awareness being "all there
      is"? So what is perceived to be happening, does so on its own accord,
      because "happening" is always from a perspective of arising and
      subsiding.

      C: from the ºvantage point of the daily human arising, the appearance
      of "something ºhappening" seems to contract the needle's point
      into a groove seeming to ºinvoke response.

      J: Responses are "prepared" in the subconscious or the unconscious and
      rise to the surface and one becomes aware of them. Then, the thought of
      doership, effort etc. will arise. When the response has subsided, that
      makes one case more of "arising and subsiding". But seen from another
      perspective, that didn't happen...

      ºC: As a very personal example, right now, my lovely and sensitive 23
      year ºold daughter is seriously depressed.

      J: Sorry to hear about your daughter - so young, already plagued by
      depression... Giving up efforts to "do" something instead of "just"
      listening is difficult... "Nothing is happening" can sound "cold" and
      here, presupposes the knowledge that when such a depression is overcome
      and no possibility of repeat does exist, it is seen easily as
      "arising and subsiding". But a "consolation" perhaps is that a
      postulate like "There is only Love" also points at "nothing is
      happening".... Difficult to see too...

      C: ºGoodness.. I've come to this point in writing this, wondering what
      my ºpoint is? I'm not seeking strategies; nor languaged, meaning
      models; nor ºreminders that these ramblings come from an illusory self.
      I don't find ºthat I am seeking anything, nor am I closed to any of your
      input.

      J: Isn't one of your points, "how can one be a loving, kind and
      compassionate human being although aware nothing really is happening?:)"
      Theorizing and explaining won't be of any help - the mind-body
      continues to fulfill its "role" but without effort, questions or making
      choices, it will be more efficient...

      C: I am inquiring into surrender or practice of the *art of living*,
      within ºthis growing understanding. Perhaps, I want to know how you live
      your ºlives as such.

      Oh - you're quite welcome for a visit, to see for yourself... :)

      Love,
      Jan

      (please note that the editor is being very good here not to make
      nonsensical comments about cats and chocolate...)

      and Marcia replied from her heart:

      Hi Christiana,

      I don't know if you remember but I posted that my youngest was
      depressed and suicidal and I was made aware of it last April. Now she is
      fine and happy. She is on medication. In my mind and in the doctor's
      mind, the medication is temporary to get her over the trough.

      But that is beside the point as far as your questions go. For me it has
      been a journey out of my mind and into my heart. I talked about being
      in my heart but I came to realize that I was talking about it in my
      head. The turning point for me seemed to be as I found the spot inside
      myself of remorse for not having heard her pain. I thought of the nights
      she was alone in her room feeling blackness and I was so "stressed" at
      all I was doing for my aging father. The focus was on me and all I was
      doing. I had such a wave of emotional and I came out to her in the
      middle of the night and said I was so sorry. We connected in emotion and
      feeling. She felt heard and since that time she has been very close to
      me. She is "high maintenance", very needy, but feels felt if that makes
      sense. I feel as if she helped me find my heart again and learn how to
      love. Much of it is just hanging out with her and being open. I am
      having fun hanging out. I let go of all the stuff I had to do and she
      comes first. I still have plenty of time for all that stuff and I have a
      friend also. I felt sorry for myself alot of the time because no one
      loved me (this is my story) and all along she was right there needing to
      love me and be loved.

      Another simple but very effective thing I did was to get a kitten.

      Anyway, I know how you are feeling (I think).

      Marcia

      In another vein, Tim (Omkara) offered:
      ____
      Dear List,

      Lately things have been falling apart!

      There are many examples. This computer has been crashing for no
      detectable reason. I was reading "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" and half
      the book came loose of the binding and fell on the floor. Recently I
      dropped a full container of cottage cheese on the floor and it was
      spread from one corner of the room to the other. I have a cold/flu.
      Even psychologically, it feels like things are collapsing in many ways.
      I'm no longer sure of anything, nothing makes sense, nothing is "holding
      together."

      These are just a few examples. And the absolute beauty of this falling
      apart is beyond my ability to express. The real beauty lies in the fact
      that there's no need to "fix" anything.

      Breakdown, collapse, failure, these things are inexpressibly beautiful,
      especially when unexpected and happening so unpredictably.

      I don't know why this is. I don't know why everything seems to be
      falling apart lately, or why there's an inexpressible loveliness to all
      of it.

      Such a joyous shock to watch that cottage cheese container hit the
      floor...

      Here's to total collapse of the entire structure!

      Love,
      Tim (Omkara)

      Tim also offered:

      From BREAKING THE ILLUSION
      Tools For Self-Awakening
      Ric Weinman

      Available from: http://www.newfalcon.com

      BREAKING THE ILLUSION: THE ROLE OF THE BODY IN CREATING PHYSICAL
      REALITY

      Our particular physical reality is not something that exists in some
      absolute sense, outside of us, ready to be perceived. It is constructed
      by---and mirrors---our own perception, so it cannot even exist without
      us.(As we will see later, this is the basis of modern physics.)

      Earlier, I emphasized the fact that the nature of the physical reality
      we construct is determined by the narrow range of sensory data that our
      "bodies" are sensitive to and the kind of senses we have. Yet our world
      is not just a mirror of what we are capable of seeing, hearing, and so
      on. The reality we construct is much further from Reality than simply
      being a composite of specific slices of It, because our experience
      further depends upon what happens to the limited sensory data as it gets
      translated through different bio-systems on the way to our brain, and
      even further depends upon what our brain does---and is capable of
      doing---with that limited, multi-translated data when it finally
      receives it.

      This has enormous consequences for many other assumptions we make about
      our physical reality. For instance, even if a cat's eyes were sensitive
      to exactly the same range of light waves as our own, the cat's body and
      brain might do something very different with those bouncing light waves,
      making what the cat finally sees entirely different. We assume, since
      cats are responsive to the things that we see, that what they see is the
      same. But this is an immense egocentric assumption that becomes even
      more obvious when we consider the case of insects: a fly has two eyes,
      just as we do, yet each of its eyes is made up of thousands of tiny
      lenses, each one producing a separate picture. With thousands of
      simultaneous images and a pin-sized brain, how could the fly possibly
      create the same visual image we do? And consider the perceptual reality
      of monarch butterflies: tossed around by every wind and with almost no
      brain to speak of, they migrate by the millions from all over the North
      American continent to the same few mountains in Mexico and California
      that their ancestors did, mountains that the butterflies have never been
      to, since they were born in the north.

      Human-physical-reality is definitely not the same as
      butterfly-physical-reality or even cat-physical-reality. In fact, just
      because butterflies look solid to us within our reality does not
      necessarily mean that butterflies experience the world as solid within
      their own reality. Since the solidity of the world is a perceptual
      illusion, it is logical to assume that some creatures aren't capable of
      creating---or don't choose to create---that illusion.

      The question even exists as to whether we see what other people see.
      Because of our use of descriptive language, we know that what we see is
      similar, yet it may not be the same. For instance, when a friend of mine
      was tested for new contact lenses, the doctor put a different lens into
      each eye. To my friend's surprise, objects looked bigger through one eye
      than through the other. She asked the doctor which size was the "real"
      one, but of course there was no way for the doctor to tell. And any
      attempts to tell by measuring the objects with a ruler would prove
      fruitless, because the ruler itself would seem to grow or shrink in
      size, depending upon the eye viewing it. So although objects may look
      twice as big to you as they do to me, we could participate in the same
      consensus reality without ever noticing the difference, always assuming
      that we saw the same thing. In fact, in experiments in which people wore
      glasses that made the world look upside down, after a few days they
      completely habituated to functioning this way and they interacted
      normally with their environment and other people; no one else had any
      way to tell that they were perceiving the world upside down.

      The physical reality we create with our perception intersects with the
      realities of all kinds of other creatures and human beings. Yet what we
      individually experience is always our own unique reality, constructed
      perceptually by our own individual human "body"---whatever that really
      is.

      Finally, Omkara (Tim) posted this:

      Dear Melody,

      (I'm not singling you out in this post, it's for the list in general)

      The day when you can realize (deeper than intellectually) that even when
      the Heart seems silent, yet it still sings...

      ... that in the resistance to **WHAT IS** lies the blockage ...

      ... that your mood is not you ...

      ... that the desire to escape depression *IS* the depression ...

      ... that the *FEELING OF* disconnection from Source is not disconnection
      from Source...

      ... that you ARE the Heart, and "depressed Heart" is still Heart ...

      ... that all suffering is born of resistance ...

      ... that you can embrace or even LOVE negative moods and bad feelings if
      you want ...

      ... that the Heart's silence is just another type of song ...

      ... abiding *AS* what is, not *in* what is ...

      On that day, Hell will dissolve forever, and can never touch you again.

      Love Always,

      Omkara (Tim)
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