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digest of Thursday's postings

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  • Melody
    Nonduality digest for Thursday, July 22 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jan: The unpredictability of the no-man s land can be associated with the
    Message 1 of 2 , Jul 23, 1999
      Nonduality digest for Thursday, July 22

      The unpredictability of the no-man's land can
      be associated with the archetypal hero's journey. It reminds
      of an introduction, Jung wrote in a book on Ramana Maharshi, that
      wasn't finished by his close friend Heinrich Zimmer. Jung
      visited India but didn't visit Ramana; he was considered
      absolutely predictable. Instead, Jung was overjoyed by
      a householder, firmly rooted in "worldly" life, who was a
      disciple of Ramana. This was the "proof of the pudding"; the
      validity of Ramana's teaching / method for John Doe.

      That's interesting. Jung probably could relate better to
      the "worldly" version of things. Jung felt the ultimate
      truth was
      best served by a relationship between ego and Self and that
      each needed the other. If he had met with Ramana, their
      differences concerning this topic might have come to the
      fore and perhaps Jung avoided that. I don't really know
      because this is the first I've heard of it.

      Jung more or less stated in that book, he was unable to accept
      nonduality. His objection was that as long as one can
      experience, there is the duality of the experiencer and the
      experienced. Clearly, he didn't consider the fact that the
      notion of both experiencer and experienced can vanish without
      impairing mental and physical functionality.


      The function of disciplines and rules, like dispassion
      and renunciation in Jnana Yoga, is that of tools, in order to prevent
      blocks to form anymore and when the already existing ones pop in
      consciousness, to be able to easily transform them. The meaning of
      statements like "when the engine stops, the boat will continue to move for
      quite a while" and "a match sets afire an entire wood, then is burnt
      itself" mean that when the
      "job" is finished, all tools (like dispassion, detachment,
      renunciation) will self-destruct. The nicest expression for this is " when
      a cloth has been burnt, it still can look like a real cloth but on touching
      it, disintegrates", reminding of the fact that natives here are perceiving
      the behavior of a Southerner (Europe, that is) and will react accordingly;
      an impression that won't be generated by my letters :)


      I'm sure we've all experienced the disaster created
      by holding on to love. It becomes not love pretty quick.

      Holding on to this morning's experience of beauty,
      or last week's moment of profound revelation,

      Any holding makes our wholly present aliveness
      into something it is not. Death-like and painful.

      Someone one said,
      "Giving up control is like falling forever
      through space and never landing."
      It's scarey in the beginning, but you get used to it.
      You learn to love surprises.


      Xan offered a quote from Papaji:

      There may be one thousand mirrors, each showing a different reflection of the
      sun. There are not one thousand suns. There is one sun shining in all.
      Reflections may be different. Sun is the same. Sun is one, shining in
      everything, in every atom. Same.

      Consciousness is the same. It may appear to be a bird, or animal, or tree, or
      rock, or human. When you realize That, you will not suffer. You will enjoy.
      You don�t need anything when you are total. This is absolute, total,
      complete, perfect. All emptiness. All consciousness.

      Don�t give rise to the notion I, and instantly you will see who you are.



      "I have represented it as i saw it. to different people it appears
      differently as every thing does for tho on earth things seem permanent they
      are less permanent than a shadow as we all know too well."

      sort of a microcosm (right word?) of the total final judgement-- future state
      of psychic reintegration which disintegrates all human errors in perception
      -- imaginative redemption to blake comes by humans recognizing their own
      and in being exhuberant about it.

      "exhuberance is beauty."
      just one of the reasons i like to hang out here at the NDsalon--the divine
      exhuberance. . .

      oh!--blake makes me feel happy and free!
      to the divinity in all,

      From: Xan

      found on Kashi website:

      "I am Ma Kali, and I beg you to go deeper into the place of the terrifying
      horror of the dying ego. I shall be there with you."



      Can there be an experience without some kind of interpretation?
      Impressions will cause interpretation, thus adding to
      impressions (leading to more and changing interpretation).
      Without impressionability, the "default" is not to interpret so
      nothing is added; nothing is experienced. Without
      interpretation there is not even a utilitarian concept of
      "mine" and "yours". What once was experience, transforms into a
      movie, summarized as "events and bodies, being engaged in what
      only seems to be a real play of cause and effect." The final
      paradox is the inexpressibility of Maya.



      >Would you say that all experience is interpretation?

      The only experience that would not be interpretation would
      be experience that directly is reality. Direct experience that is reality
      is nonspatial nontemoral. Usually experience refers to sense perception,
      including thought and thought images. Nonsensory experience is not
      experience to the body-mind. In this context, all sensory experience is


      Bruce wrote:

      I would posit the following:
      the ability of thought to
      assume a pattern known as
      "ego" or "small self" has its
      origins as a survival trait,
      it becomes problematic
      because, being survival (in
      the larger sense of the word
      that includes successful
      procreation) oriented it
      invents fear to promote the
      survival of the host organism
      with which it identifies and
      (not coincidentally) itself
      as an apparently ongoing
      entity (as contrasted with
      the transient arrangement of
      thoughts it actually is).


      from Peter:

      "Before your mother and your father met, I know you."

      -- Nisargadatta Maharaj in _Seeds of Consciousness_


      From: "Dan

      "Before Abraham was, I am" Jesus of Nazareth


      I've mentioned my confession in The Wild Song of Standing
      Free, which says, "Five thousand years have passed. I am
      reading this. I am that pure."

      It was a genuine confession which comes out of seeing what
      is, which is that all is here now together nothing coming or
      going or doing or even being. In another post someone spoke
      of 'being' as being plural. When there is duality, being is
      plural. In the expressions of Jesus or Nisargadatta, or even
      mine, there is no separation, no time, no being. Once there
      is being, being is plural. Even when it's singular, it's

      Not that I'm comparing myself to these two Gods. Heck no.
      They can't do the macarena like I do the macarena...



      When the Self does get a message thru and even that is labeled
      "imagination" by consensus reality, or worse a symptom of craziness, then
      what? When I look at how much of our so called reality is imagined, even
      with consensus, its staggering. I forget who said this, but it was like,
      "Even if men went mad all in the same way, as long as they could agree with
      one another well enough, they would have a ground for consenus." Well, in a
      way..they surely have gone mad..with the wars and everyday violence, for
      only one example. It is no small matter that we can meet here at the NDS
      and give one another the support and affirmation of our experiences and
      beliefs that is so missing from consenus reality. That is why for me, the
      personal confessions and
      stories from real life events are always appropriate here. Don't you love
      it when a Kristi shows up here? Finding kindred spirits when your life
      circumstances are isolating is a real gift. Those who are more blessed,
      please remember how difficult it can be to journey alone.


      I can remember feeling exactly that way when
      I arrived.

      I had noticed recently, though, that I had created
      a kind of 'box' centered around the nondual
      perspective, however.

      I realized I had simply substituted one
      consensus reality for another.

      I noticed this when I recognized the sense
      of constriction I was experiencing in brushing
      off other curiousities and impulses that did
      not 'appear' to fit the framework of thought
      that had been built around my notions and
      experience of "nonduality" and "liberation".

      I had tasted freedom when I arrived at this
      Salon. But I allowed it to become my
      new 'box'.

      I then tasted freedom again after I
      realized what I had done because I gave
      myself permission to be responsive
      fully to *whatever* sparked my fascination
      and curiousity. What I have discovered
      was that from that space of 'paying attention
      to' and 'responding to' what brings me Joy,
      I open myself to being creative, as Creator,
      and at the same time, being neither.

      Nonduality once again becomes an "effect" of
      living life spontaneously, without attachments,
      rather than a prescription for living.

      It's this 'dancing freely in life' that allows me to
      commune and appreciate the testimonies and
      discoveries of others, without feeling the
      need to build a fence around them, and give
      them a name.

      And the recognition of this fills me with


      A serious contemplation NOW of one's impending death may
      serve to straighten out the kind of "living by comparison."
      Without such a turn of attention, one may have to wait for
      age, old age, or a terminal illness to turn the tide. I
      think of Kristie's homeless man holding the LOVE sign, the
      man with the piercing smile and eyes that look to the bottom
      of one's soul. Does anyone think he lives for Kodak moments
      and rare instances when he feels he 'matches up' with
      manufactured standards of what life 'should' be like? As
      Kristie says, he is feared.


      Personally I think that a good look to the bottom of one's
      soul would show anyone that they don't live without
      "living by comparison". That is the really scary thing when
      one is completely and totally honest with oneself. All
      my motives involve comparison and I am lying if I say
      they don't. It is the BIGGEST lie of all to say that I
      don't do that and puts me back to sleep faster than
      you can say jack rabbit.

      My moments of pure awakening are few and far
      between and are not of my own doing really.
      I don't choose the moment but if I can humble
      myself enough to admit that I am just as asleep
      as all those ordinary guys in life, I may be gifted
      with a few more of them. :-)


      From: "Petros"

      "The jnani experiences all the normal emotions of a man, but he does not
      take delivery of them." -- Nisargadatta Maharaj


      Just listen to the silence
      which underlies all perception.
      Listen with all the senses.
      Listen with body and mind.
      Be still and listen.
      That's all.


      Mysticism without religion is taking
      without giving. True religion sees mysticism as a stage to
      be transcended. True religion gives up everything and what's
      left is a simple word, a very simple statement, and that's

      If I may put these together - true religion is freedom itself.
      doesn't need any structure or organization and will do what it does
      regardless of human created structures.


      J. Krishnamurti, whose famous
      1929 speech includes the
      statement "I maintain that
      Truth is a pathless land, and
      you cannot approach it by any
      path whatsoever, by any
      religion, by any sect," when
      asked what he was in the
      vocational sense responded
      that he was "a religious man."



      One very good teacher, friend of mine, answered a question from a seeker
      who thought he was realized:

      "The difference between you and me, is that you think there's a difference
      between you and me."



    • Melody
      A sampling of postings from the Nonduality Salon and a few other places, as well.... for Thursday, August 5, 1999
      Message 2 of 2 , Aug 6 3:45 PM
        A sampling of postings from
        the Nonduality Salon and a
        few other places, as well....

        for Thursday, August 5, 1999

        From the NDS:

        Xan: From the position of emerging out of doer identity we discover doing
        to be so much simpler, more creative and effective without an intervening
        identity, at
        least I do. I think we do not know how it would be to grow up without
        assuming identities - the "natural" way. :-)

        Dan: What would it be to grow up and never identify yourself as a name, a
        body, a memory system? To never identify with things you liked (e.g.
        beauty, pleasure, happiness, joy) and never want to separate from things
        you didn't like (e.g., ugliness, pain, disgust, unhappiness)? If this were
        the case, how would you ever identify yourself as involved in a growing
        process? How would you ever locate yourself? Insofar as we are
        identifiable beings, we can come to an ending of this identification, an
        ongoing rebirth. Yet, to the extent we are never identifiable beings, we
        were never born in the first place. Then, there is only the Unborn and
        That alone.

        From a Gathering:

        Suppose it was a butterfly dreaming away that it had become a [John Doe] in
        it's dream, a [John Doe] engaged
        in meaningful activities to avoid becoming
        emasculated, to avoid death?
        With the opening blink of the butterfly's eyes waking up, all this goes
        Can you at least admit the possibility<g>

        How do you [ ] anything of all "this" has an
        existential reality? Just because you wake up every morning and through the
        course of the day, run
        through various myriads of plesant and unpleasant sensations?

        And that you have been doing this for the last 50-60-70 years?

        And that there is a memory of yesterday and a hope for tomorrow?

        Well it is perfectly possible that a full lifetime (70-80 years of sensation
        experiencing) can be compressed into a sleep-dream of 4 hours.The concept of
        time is relative in the dream state and the waking state.

        So why not a butterfly sleeping say for 3 hours and dreaming a full dream in
        which 50 years of [John Doe] is played out, with
        all his issues, meaningful
        actions, hopes, desires, creatings etc etc.

        That is why those who know have talked about the veil of illusion for the
        outer, and re-focussed the disciple's attention to re-discovering, not
        whether it is a butterfly dreaming or not, whether all this is real or
        illusion or not, but to re-discover that which remains whether dreaming or

        Now this re-discovery cannot even get started if the fascination, if the
        seeking is for satiation with the nuances of the dream, with the myriad
        aspects of the outer.

        Does it mean the outer is to be discarded, shunned?

        No, that means a reaction and any reaction positive or negative means you
        are still bound to what you are reacting to.

        No, what is to be seen is the identification of oneself with the nuances of
        the outer and in that seeing is the shedding of the identification.

        From the NDS:

        Gene Poole:
        Yes. Personally, I have experienced this 'ego loss' as a catastropic
        event, only later appreciated as a process of (hopefully) inevitable
        maturation. "Losing it" was actually 'getting it'. I can see this now, but
        at the time (1973) it seemed like the end of the world, literally.

        >This simultaneous realization shows that the
        > construction of "the doer" is associated with a
        > construction of a "world" in which the doing takes place,
        > and that identification with the first requires separation
        > and disidentification from the second.

        Gene: Yes. The problem associated with this process, when it occurs
        unbidden, is the lack of the second part, or the lack of the realization
        that 'I am creator'. Having it all 'go away', is a great shock; I regret
        that the 'world-dream' lacks the common information that 'I am the
        creator', to move in as the second realization, when the first collapse
        occurs. I applaud the promulgation of this simple logic of Being and


        Gene: Yes. I am the one who rides the waves, calm or storm. I am not so
        selfish as to suffer, for the particular state I desire or have aversion
        to. Such selfishness leads to much suffering, and is not worth the cost. My
        attachments... are now kept at a distance, and are becoming only artifacts
        of historical interest, markers of a past which I am letting go of.

        Marcia: Somehow this causes me to think that the aim of "realization" isto
        free oneself from psychological problems.

        Dan: Realization frees one from those psychological problems that result
        from taking illlusions as realities. This freedom is simply inherent in
        the dynamic between reality and illusion. Please don't take this as saying
        there is some kind of aim to realization. The "attempt to get somewhere
        other than where one is" is itself an aspect of "being caught."

        Marcia: Which bases it all
        on a "fix it framework". I think that it can be a very subtle trap in
        a way to justify something because that is the way you want it to

        Dan: There is nothing to be fixed. Seeing that is itself liberation from
        the psychological problems that result from trying to fix onself, others,
        and the world. There is nothing to justify here, no one who can be
        trapped, and no attempt to make anything be what it isn't.

        Marcia: I am not trying to be picky.
        This just haunts me. You know
        what I mean?

        Dan: If I understand you correctly, you don't want to see realization as
        an attempt to fix things. Reality itself is the ending of those
        psychological difficulties based on an unreal position. However, if we
        take this understanding to mean reality is something to pursue in order to
        gain freedom, we simply perpetuate the same kind of difficulty in a new
        form. I think this is what you're getting at, and that seems true to me.

        Marcia: I mean to have to actually occupy a material body
        and have goals which just might conflict and to make decisions
        and be productive. These things take maturity and strength of

        Dan: Perhaps there is no one occupying any material bodies. Perhaps the
        material bodies themselves are constructs from the "ground of awareness."
        Goals and decisions can take care of themselves. The illusion is that
        there is a "doer" and a "decider". What does it take to end this illusion?
        The courage
        to end the belief that there is someone who is being courageous? The
        character to end the belief that there is someone who demonstrates a

        > Dan: Realization is awareness itself as it is. It is clear how awareness
        > itself "caught" in its projection of a body-mind, the associated
        > biopsychsocial process of "development of being," and the concomitent
        > investment in surviving, continuing, and being socially viable. It is
        > clear that the ending of this
        > connection of awareness with "any entity" is simply awareness as it is.

        Marcia: The imagining of being "caught" is identification.
        Projecting or developing being exists. It is the investment
        which causes "caughtness". Surviving, continuing, and social
        viableness seem like perfectly good things for a human "being".

        Dan: What makes the projection and developing seem to exist? Is it not
        awareness? Without the investment, what is it that survives and maintains
        continuity? If the illusion of continuity is dropped, what then is the
        human being if not the universe itself?

        Marcia: It is the investment which is the difficulty. The identification.
        I mean after all.....Eternity is in love with the products of
        time. :-)

        Dan: When eternity enters time, it is the ending of time as we have known it.
        It is a very different time now, time/eternity or eternal time.
        Timelessness in the midst of time, or time surrendered into eternity.
        The unknown in the midst of all that one had believed to be known.

        > Gene: Yes. Personally, I have experienced this 'ego loss' as a
        > catastropic
        > >event, only later appreciated as a process of (hopefully) inevitable
        > >maturation. "Losing it" was actually 'getting it'. I can see this
        > now, but
        > >at the time (1973) it seemed like the end of the world, literally.

        ******** I can relate. In fact, it was 1973 for me too. The world did
        come to an end as I knew it, the world of separate identities was no
        and there was no ever going back. I knew it was a process, but at that
        I didn't know *what for*?? It was a spontaneous
        thing, I had no idea what I was getting into when I sat there one night
        and questioned
        life at a deeper level. I was just simply curious. :-) Ask and you
        shall receive - WHAM!! But I was totally lost in it, so I became a
        seeker. And I basically
        stayed that way for twenty four years until 1997, when I got the *second
        like Gene said, the fulfillment, after the original falling away of
        separatenes. And as to why I didn't get the whole thing at first, I can
        speculate and say that I wasn't ready, and looking back on it, nor could
        I have
        appreciated it. You can't really appreciate something unless
        you earn it. And if you can't appreciate it, it's useless. And no smart
        from you wise guys about uselessness. :-) Dontcha love it?? :-)



        from Harsha:

        Gill had sent this poem last month and I am posting it again as it is of
        such beauty........Harsha

        the story of my life
        but the ripple of tears
        and the agony of my heart
        wouldn't let me

        i began to stutter
        saying a word here and there
        and all along i felt
        as tender as a crystal
        ready to be shattered

        in this stormy sea
        we call life
        all the big ships
        come apart
        board by board

        how can i survive
        riding a lonely
        little boat
        with no oars
        and no arms

        my boat did finally break
        by the waves
        and i broke free
        as i tied myself
        to a single board

        though the panic is gone
        i am now offended
        why should i be so helpless
        rising with one wave
        and falling with the next

        i don't know
        if i am
        while i exist
        but i know for sure
        when i am
        i am not
        when i am not
        then i am

        now how can i be
        a skeptic
        about the
        resurrection and
        coming to life again

        since in this world
        i have many times
        like my own imagination
        died and
        been born again

        that is why
        after a long agonizing life
        as a hunter
        i finally let go and got
        hunted down and became free

        ~Rumi, ghazal number 1419,
        translated April 17, 1991,
        by Nader Khalili

        from the NDS:


        In my past, attention arose very naturally out of where I was in my life.
        Somehow it was so organic that there really was no trying. Now, it's not
        that way. So this makes me wonder about the nature of awareness. Since
        it's always there, why should I be looking for it? But there has to be some
        sort of effort. Perhaps there is a very fine distinction between effort and
        no effort at all.

        << >Okay, let's try these to see if we can get a handle on this ego thing.

        Why? Why try to "get a handle on" it? It's the ego itself that's trying
        to understand ego. I suspect it can't be done, and furthermore, why should
        it be done? Better to focus on understanding what lies behind thought,
        what "causes" thought, rather than to try and understand the nature of
        thought itself. Thought cannot "grasp" thought, because any such grasping
        is itself more thought. It's an exercise in frustration, and personally,
        peace of mind is much better appreciated here :-)


        It can be useful to see how the ego/mind is perpetuating itself in order to
        stop doing that. Not for the mental gratification of defining but for


        from a Gathering:


        Prayer is a dialogue.
        Dialogue requires two.
        Prayer to whom?
        To a conception, to an apriori assumption?
        Of what worth will such a prayer be, if it is remain within the bounds of
        one's conditionings from which springs our conceptions, or assumptions.
        also from Sandeep:

        Look to yourself.
        Look to identify your poverty.
        Look to re-discover your richness.
        Look to discover what blocks your richness to manifest, for your mastery to
        Look to discover how you cannot see the perfection in an imperfection, in an
        evolution, in the discarding of a cocoon for a butterfly to be the beauty it

        Look to see how the so called anguish for the "other" is game that you play,
        have played for lifetimes, to avoid the real work or confronting oneself,
        it's aloneness.
        Look to see how to avoid this intrinsic aloneness, which one senses, one
        goes forth to change the world, to better the world.

        Look to healing yourself, by discarding the masks that you have donned
        through several lifetimes, before you can even contemplate to deal with the
        other's situation.

        Look at oneself, Look at oneself, Look at oneself.

        When that pureness is discovered, in that purity, in that mileu of purity,
        much takes place, much gets accomplished, much gets done and there is no
        "doer' for this doing.
        Till that re-discovery takes place, all "doing" are games that ego plays.
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