Monday, December 4
- View SourceLILIANA
[...]As for Zarathustra's words and saving the world - not much to add
after Sandeep's excellent exposition; also from the 'double", it looks
like you can save only one person - yourself, and even for that you
need "the help" of Grace, so forget the volition. A place like NDS does
makes sense, nonduality for the people does make sense - it helps those
that can hear and transforms energy, imo.
One is "saved" already - if saving had a beginning it would have an
end. Some time ago I wrote:
'The term "resonance" in relation to communicating, could be defined as
"the experience of the one communicating, leading to a similar
experience of the one, communicated to" and from that definition, it
would follow that ultimately, everything is communicable - if the
"proper" conditions are met or, if the "improper" conditions fall
The experience that "really matters" here is Silence - it is
communicable because it is 'common' already, it is what is referred to
as "saved" but not recognized because of the ongoing mental frenzy in
the "seeker". Exposure to one for whom Silence has become "default"
will uncover the experience in "others" without effort - just a matter
of time, for some 5 minutes but for others a matter of years. That is
why exposure to guys like Ramana is invaluable and there is no
substitute for it.
Yes, it is the rule of subtraction not addition. But the "5 min." or
"the matter of years" is Grace's intervention and Her choice. I am just
wondering if, or how much, the physical exposure to guys like Ramana is
necessary. For those that are ready, the teacher comes, even if s/he
happens to have disposed of her/his body earlier. Of course, I am not
making the point here that sitting at Ramana's feet is invaluable. On
How much physical exposure can do is also evidenced by the reports of
people visiting the graves of guys like Ramana - and a stay in
Ramanashram was compared to a stay in a hothouse. Strictly speaking
only one's real nature is the teacher as there is nothing else - but
what that "really" can mean is to be driven to the limit a human can
take - implying quite an ordeal like the Buddha underwent in his years
of asceticism. Exposure is not just physical and it could be called the
"easy" way as opposed to be driven to the limit a human can take and
then experience the "AHA" of a lifetime. Stories that "the teacher will
appear when the student is ready" aren't of "these times" as teachers
abound - what is of "these times" is spontaneous Kundalini awakening
which can be quite an ordeal too. But perhaps Harsha can give a few
accounts of visitors, having been exposed to Ramana's presence and
whether or not that was invaluable to them...
In 1997, during my stay in India, I visited Alandi, a mahasamadhi place
of Jnaneshvar. Nearly 800 years ago, the 21 years old Indian saint -
poet, yogi, jnani and bhakta - the author of one of the most reverred
commentaries to Bhagavad Gita, written by him at the age 16, asked to
be immured in a cave where he sat in samadhi. Since that time the site
is considered to be the place of Power and a centre of constant
pilgrimage. At the side of the temple, right above the cave with his,
as people say, still intact body, there is a small place closed at one
side with the wall inscribed with some chapters of Gita. Pandids,
sadhus and other visitors spent time there, reading Gita. I also sat
there, in the back corner, contemplating some lines from the book,
accompanied by a young yoga-teacher friend I travelled with. Suddenly
some people who left the temple entered the little space and began
putting flowers and fruit and sweets at my feet. Each of them would
also touch my feet with their hands and their forhead - the usual
"procedure"of the worship given to a saint or an idol. The people kept
comming in and doing "the thing" to me and one more sadhu there. I
noticed with the corner of my eye that my friends eyes were kind of
goggled, although I could see only his profile. All my concentration
vanished, my body was getting more and more tense every moment, I sat
there perplexed thinking: "F...k, I got enlightened and I didn't even
notice it!". Finally they placed the flowers also at my friend's feet
and all the other guys' and I relaxed a little. Later, I learnt that
this kind of conduct is also an expression of respect, in that case
given to pandids studying Gita at the site. I also realized that in the
place I sat I was more easily accesible than the others :))))
I told you this story before, Jan. Thought some others may enjoy it
Yes, I know the story - it's very funny, thank you for sharing it with
the list.. But I also know stories of people, so sensitive that that
they can feel that at a certain location a lethal accident happened.
With such a sensitiveness, one will also feel "holy" places, they
aren't "just" places_with_history then.. And one will feel the
influence of someone like Ramana. Fact is, sensitiveness isn't equally
distributed among the six senses :)) And the "hidden" issue about
compassion is that in the course of events a situation will arise by
itself, where sensitiveness will expand to the size of the universe...
It is rare to come across somebody who has been to Alandi. And living
maybe just 300 kms away, I haven't visited Alandi.<s>
Thank you for sharing that story of your travels. Yes in India, (the
real India) a guest, a visitor is God visiting.
DAVID HODGES AND GENE POOLE
I like haiku that are raw and a little fierce and lonely. And now
Gene's recent postings have gotten me started on space, and I start to
see the great haiku as little virtual nanomachines that generate empty
Indeed, such as the well-filled space in Seven-of-Nine's
Gene, I've been re-reading "Magic Dance" by Thinley Norbu. Sometimes I
can't get past the introduction. There are sentences like this one that
blow me away: "All generally visible measureless phenomena elements are
the display of self-secret divisionless unobstructed Wisdom Mind."
(There's that word "display").
Yes. I understand everything in that book. Really, it helps to read it
out loud, especially to another person. Have you ever read any stuff by
Charles Luk ('Lu kuon Yu')? Same technique of reading aloud helps there
I imagine Thinley Norbu writing this sentence and sitting back and
exhaling a big sigh and getting up and wandering about the world for
two years before being able to sit down and write the next sentence. Or
else he is grinning over the construction "self-secret", knowing that
we, the reader, expect "self-evident." What is self-secret? Ahhh!
Hidden in plain sight!
'Self-secret' is 'intelligence' itself. You spoke of space-generating
nanos... well, intelligence is the most fierce of all creative forces;
it is sheer fire in speed and organization; it never stops; it
compounds upon every previous action, and with the increase in human
computational power, is now trying (Oh, HOW it is trying, fiercely,
unrelentingly! Like the first salmon to spawn RETURNING to the Golden
Age worlds, to deposit its report; thus to generate the most important
forward-wave of changes!, from our 'past', for to change our present!)
to establish true logarithmic rate-of-increase.
If and when this occurs, notice a dramatic shift upward in 'resolution
of reality', richness and depth, and self-stating meaning, emanating as
Display; then to be forced to renegotiate our presence, not alone any
more; all living inside of a 'giant', whose voice(s) now are seen
plainly as the very material assumed to be 'incidental' matter,
placenta I call it; and you may ask, may some speak of a 'haunted'
universe, 'taken over' by a 'mass hallucination' of 'talking trees' and
animals who simply demand their space be respected? Even bugs, yes...
And so now, what is the _current premise_, can you state it, and can
you overcome it in advance, to be a human harbinger, an 'early-adopter'
of non-nonchalance, a new-world man of non-trivial empty abiding?
All deals are off; there is only emptiness behind the mask of 'casual',
cold wind howling thru the empty sockets of I, leaving no puzzle at
all. And that, is where T Norbu is 'coming from'. Having been there,
himself, and now treating us to what is, his enhanced capability; allow
his words to entrain your brain, speak them out loud, and make every
sentence make sense, via inflection, that is the trick! Mega-boost
Varjrayana jumper-cables, clipped to you, yet fed from a past which is
your future! Shocking! Hahahhaha!
Anyway, can you recommend other books by Thinley Norbu, or about
Vajrayana in general?
the self-secret David
Have you read Alexandra David-Neel's 'The Secret Oral Teachings in
Tibetan Buddhist Sects'?
City Lights Books, SF, Ca
"The way of seeing", identical to 'Don Juan Matus' Nagual 'way of
seeing'. Less obvious, is the obviously parallel Kahuna path of
Hawaii... and it all comes from 'BonPo'.
Clouds and dragons,
It has been noticed on this list at times that enlightened beings
rarely get together and work together. Since it is just that fact that
has occupied my personal investigations recently, the song which
follows I found of interest. One of the loose groups associated with
postmodernism (of which Nietzsche is the patron saint) is called the
'ironists.' These are people who observe the ironies of life as a lens
to illuminate what is happening. Examples that have been brought forth
often feature the juxtaposition of different cultures in the emerging
global village. There was the japanese shopping mall promoting
christmas by having a large santa claus covering one wall, nailed to a
cross. There was the anthropologist applying to the government office
in New Zealand for a permit to study the maoris, and being told by a
full-blooded maori who happened to have a doctorate in anthropology
from Georgetown that he didn't think 'the chicago school' of thought
was appropriate for studying maoris. Post modern life indeed abounds
with ironies. One which may apply here is that the very people who
preach (no pejorative attaches to the word in my mind) egolessness may
be found competing with each other for attention and approval, and
displaying the same anxieties found in other fields. In saying this I
am not speaking specifically of this list, just referring to a
phenomenon we have all noticed from time to time; an example would be
Andrew Cohen and Papaji. And of course their admirers tend to take
sides. The question which has always symbolized for me the unsolvable
koan which cuts to the bone is this: "Why doesn't everyone love
everyone else all the time?" It is an innocent question, such as a
child might have; or a person who has been cleansed into innocence by
the vanishing of experience in nowness. It is an ever-fruitful
question, embodying the first noble truth, the admission that there is
suffering happening all around us if not within us (and in nonduality
there is no distinction between within and without). Why in particular
don't enlightened people get together to open Taverns or break into
Prisons? Maybe they are too few...I was never especially attracted to
go see masters when I was younger; there didn't seem to be any point
since I already knew. It wouldn't surprise me if most enlightened
people are so self-sufficient that they have no special desire to
combine with others of their own stature. Still, there are several
reasons why I think that the time may be coming when some of these
people will be getting together to accomplish common aims. There is the
idea that there are perhaps a growing number of enlightened people in
the world, which would allow for the possibility. There is the internet
which allows them to find each other and communicate. And there is the
*need* for new values to replace the mcluhanesque amputation of our
conventional social structures by the internet (marshall mcluhan
examined the effects of technology on people, seeing that the use of
the automobile had the effect of amputating our feet and so on, and
seeing that technology had replaced genetic mutation as the vehicle for
Here is another selection from Nietzsche's Zarathustra.
You can find a complete copy of Nietzsche's "Thus Spake Zarathustra" at
31. The Night-Song
'TIS night: now do all gushing fountains speak louder. And my soul
also is a gushing fountain.
'Tis night: now only do all songs of the loving ones awake. And my
soul also is the song of a loving one.
Something unappeased, unappeasable, is within me; it longeth to find
expression. A craving for love is within me, which speaketh itself the
language of love.
Light am I: ah, that I were night! But it is my lonesomeness to be
begirt with light!
Ah, that I were dark and nightly! How would I suck at the breasts of
And you yourselves would I bless, ye twinkling starlets and
glow-worms aloft!- and would rejoice in the gifts of your light.
But I live in mine own light, I drink again into myself the flames
that break forth from me.
I know not the happiness of the receiver; and oft have I dreamt that
stealing must be more blessed than receiving.
It is my poverty that my hand never ceaseth bestowing; it is mine
envy that I see waiting eyes and the brightened nights of longing.
Oh, the misery of all bestowers! Oh, the darkening of my sun! Oh,
the craving to crave! Oh, the violent hunger in satiety!
They take from me: but do I yet touch their soul? There is a gap
'twixt giving and receiving; and the smallest gap hath finally to be
A hunger ariseth out of my beauty: I should like to injure those I
illumine; I should like to rob those I have gifted:- thus do I
hunger for wickedness.
Withdrawing my hand when another hand already stretcheth out to
it; hesitating like the cascade, which hesitateth even in its leap:-
thus do I hunger for wickedness!
Such revenge doth mine abundance think of such mischief welleth
out of my lonesomeness.
My happiness in bestowing died in bestowing; my virtue became
weary of itself by its abundance!
He who ever bestoweth is in danger of losing his shame; to him who
ever dispenseth, the hand and heart become callous by very dispensing.
Mine eye no longer overfloweth for the shame of suppliants; my
hand hath become too hard for the trembling of filled hands.
Whence have gone the tears of mine eye, and the down of my heart?
Oh, the lonesomeness of all bestowers! Oh, the silence of allshining
Many suns circle in desert space: to all that is dark do they
speak with their light- but to me they are silent.
Oh, this is the hostility of light to the shining one: unpityingly
doth it pursue its course.
Unfair to the shining one in its innermost heart, cold to the suns:-
thus travelleth every sun.
Like a storm do the suns pursue their courses: that is their
travelling. Their inexorable will do they follow: that is theircoldness.
Oh, ye only is it, ye dark, nightly ones, that extract warmth from
the shining ones! Oh, ye only drink milk and refreshment from the
Ah, there is ice around me; my hand burneth with the iciness! Ah,
there is thirst in me; it panteth after your thirst!
'Tis night: alas, that I have to be light! And thirst for the
nightly! And lonesomeness!
'Tis night: now doth my longing break forth in me as a fountain,-
for speech do I long.
'Tis night: now do all gushing fountains speak louder. And my soul
also is a gushing fountain.
'Tis night: now do all songs of loving ones awake. And my soul
also is the song of a loving one.- Thus sang Zarathustra.
Your point that the body-mind doesn't
see is well-taken.
And if the body-mind computer can't see,
that's because it's a concept,
and a concept doesn't see.
To say "it's inert" just adds the
concept of being inert to what
is already a concept.
The nonconceptual sees.
All that this discussion in the conceptual
realm can do is to free the seeing
from the conceptual anchoring (the
belief it is an entity).
As no conceptual reality exists independently,
and as the conceptualizer is conceptual,
independent reality doesn't exist.
As dependent reality always depends on something
else to exist, dependent reality doesn't exist
As nothing exists, and yet conceptualization occurs,
everything that exists not only doesn't exist,
it is - that is, nonexistence is all existence.
The mountains are mountains, they're not just nothing.
Thus, we're at a point to say, this mountain is
the universe. If conceptuality is necessary
for life perceiving, then conceptuality involving
one concept is all concepts, as all conceptuality
interrelates interdependently. One concept is
the entire nonconceptual being, as no concept could
arise apart from it.
The sun shines and the wind blows without appearing to self identify,
why shouldn't this be the same?
Ramana repeated many times that the mind does not exist, that it is only
the stream of
thoughts, and that the first thought is "I am the body", which is a
false thought, so
how was he identified with mind or body?
The organism functions automatically. Look around, everything you see
automatically, people too.
DAN BERKOW AND ANDREW MACNAB
Dan Berkow wrote:
Thought occurs within the gestalt of
There is no why for the gestalt, but
thought can function quite well
looking at why's and how's.
The why for thought is whatever why it's
addressing. Such as "why did my car
stop running?" In this situation,
thought is needed to see why the car
Thought addresses problems within its domain,
and this is appropriate.
If my car mechanic tells me that my car stopped
because the fuel filter is clogged, I get
a new fuel filter. I don't engage the mechanic
in a metaphysical discussion about why there is
no why, or about how the car runs although there
is no ultimate causation.
You write of productive thought, problem solving thought, thought that
is a means to an end like getting the car running. You call it
appropriate and so it is.
There is also idle thought, frivolous, apparently addressing nothing.
A breakthrough in understanding might very well come with the
metaphysical thoughts arising around the car breaking down. What the
mechanic says about how the car runs might be part of it, something
profound about fuel and spark and timing maybe.
"I used to be shy.
You made me sing.
I used to refuse things at table.
Now I shout for more wine.
In somber dignity, I used to sit
on my mat and pray.
Now children run through
and make faces at me.
There was a long drought. Crops dried up.
The vineyard leaves turned black.
People were gasping and dying like fish
thrown up on shore and left there.
But one man was always laughing and smiling.
A group came and asked,
"Have you no compassion for this suffering?"
He answered, 'To your eyes this is a drought.
To me, it is a form of God's joy.
Everywhere in this desert I see green corn
growing waist high, a sea-wilderness
of young ears greener than leeks.
I reach to touch them.
How could I not?
You and your friends are like Pharaoh
drowning in the Red Sea of your body's blood.
Become friends with Moses, and see this other riverwater.'
When you think your father is guilty of an injustice,
his face looks cruel. Joseph to his envious brothers,
seemed dangerous. When you make peace with your
father, he will look peaceful and friendly. The whole
world is a form for truth.
When someone does not feel grateful to that,
the forms appear to be as he feels.
They mirror his anger, his greed, and his fear.
Make peace with the universe. Take joy in it.
It will turn to gold. Resurrection will be now.
Every moment, a new beauty."
from "The Essential Rumi", translated by
Coleman Barks (submitted by Melody Anderson)
SANDEEP WITH ANDREW MACNAB
> Hi Sandeep,SANDEEP
> The sun shines and the wind blows without appearing to self identify,
> why shouldn't this be the same?
Because the "living" body-mind complex is the only form of manifestation
which has the added nuance of sentience.
In the "human-living" body-mind complex, the nuance of sentience, has a
further nuance of a sense of discrimination -the "me-entity".
> Ramana repeated many times that the mind does not exist, that it is onlythe stream of
> thoughts, and that the first thought is "I am the body", which is a falsethought, so
> how was he identified with mind or body?SANDEEP
First of all let's not forget Ramana spoke only in the language of Tamil
which is an extremely difficult language to a get a total translation
Any language translated to another, loses something, but in the case of
Tamil to English, much is lost, specially when the translators
had not tasted Ramana, just heard his words.
Secondly there is no false thoughts, there are no true thoughts.
There is thoughts, or there is no thought.
No-thought cannot be noted, for in that noting is also a thought, so it
Thus for that state of no-thought, who is there to say anything about
Ergo anything said about that state can only be conceptual.
My submission to you for saying that any body-mind complex in which
apperception has occurred, and continues to "live", there has to be an
identification with the body-mind complex, is because, without that,
is not possible.
When Ramana subsequent to his awakening, noticed the arising sensation
hunger in the body-mind complex he was inhabitating, he did not continue
notice it, he fed it at some point of time.
When Ramana was called "Bhagwan", he turned his head towards the caller
responded to the caller.
Emotions arose in the body-mind complex named Ramana.
He danced in joy along with the followers when the followers were
praise of Ramana.
Yes Ramana himself danced in joy at the praise of Ramana.
This was possible because Consciousness can and indeed does dance in joy
Ramana shed copious tears at hearing the plight of a miserable seeker,
11 volumes or so on the misery of the seeker, after apperception
Ramana that there is no seeker, no sougth.
(Dan, after the realization, that there is no me-entity, Ramana wrote 11
volumes on the issues of the me-entity)
And continued to be identify the mountain Arunachala as the symbol of
And yet it was not Ramana who was doing all these "antics".
"Antics" were getting done through the particular body-mind complex with
particular set of conditionings, programming, including the programming
where by the occurrence of awakening was scheduled to occur when it
The entitification with a particular body-mind complex continues, yet
is no more a personal identification in the sense of a "me-entity"
> The organism functions automatically. Look around, everything you seefunctions
> automatically, people too.SANDEEP
Nothing functions automatically within phenomenality.
Phenomenality in essence is the myriadal interplay of causes and effects
The human body-mind complex, is basically an inert apparatus, totally
working on an input-output process.
What differentiates this organism from a "dead" organism is the added
of sentience, and further a sense of discrimination within sentience,
Without sentience, the organism is a "dead" one.
You say people function automatically.
Do you use the term 'automatically" as indicating an automatic
response to an non-volitional input?
Then I would agree with you.
Function of a sentient body-mind complex is basically behaviour.
Behaviour is a series of actions.
Actions are some of the thoughts which have got externally actualized,
per the innate conditioning of the body-mind complex.
Thoughts are a series of cascading thoughts one after another, starting
that trigger thought, which is a non-volitional occurrence.
Call it intution, call it a wavicle function collapse of QM, whatever,
trigger thought has nothing to do with the body-mind complex as Libet's
experiments show and which the articles in the New Scientist, posted by
Desire gives your suffering. Whenever any
desire arises, you want to go near it, you
want to achieve it and you do, then you are
happy, isn't it? You may think that the object
made you happy, but really it is the absence
of desire, That moment of emptiness that
makes you happy.
(submitted by Xan)
thank you for the quote, it's good to hear from you. it's true. i like
what ramana maharshi said, "desirelessness is wisdom"
it's just because we love ourselves so much that we want to give
ourselves perfect happiness. so many of us have damn near killed
ourselves striving to be happy in one way or another. perfect happiness
is necessarily permanent. the only permanent thing is our own brilliant
existence. when we stop all the desiring, what is left is so perfect,
so complete, so full. we think we need to add something to be happy,
when really if we just subtract, perfect happiness is what we are. it's
so simple, it's goofy. one of my teachers said: "when in doubt,
I'm off to Arizona for the rest of the week. If I can't check the list
daily, I'll read the highlites upon my return.
The sharing on this list during the past week has been quite
My little imaginary family (Mu, The God of Thunder, the Only Truly
Enlightened Being in the Universe, and of course Michael Read)
truly loves each and everyone on this list and everywhere.
May the chains of desire be broken
May your heart sing freely
May love find you in all things.
HAHAHAHA and HOHOHO!
Peace - Michael
Here is a short poem by David Whyte:
Loaves and Fishes
This is not
the age of information.
This is not
the age of information.
Forget the news,
and the radio,
and the blurred screen.
This is the time
People are hungry,
and one good word is bread
for a thousand.
There is a time for violence,
There is a time for peace.
Only those who remain utterly devoted to their inner feelings--their
core being anxiety and serenity, first; and contempt and compassion,
second--know when the time is right for violence or for peace.
Only those who live in touch, first and last, with their feeling--are
capable of the subtlety of choice. Only they can transcend numbing
generalizations and passionate exaggeration. Only they know the truth
of serenity and compassion. And, thus, of love.
brothers and sisters, white wolfe has realized that he has been
neglecting his practice to the point of personal detriment...his time
in the salon will be hopefully be less and more...the fruiths of my
humble practice, his lectio divina of today, follow...i hope that
this sharing is worthy of the sacred pack...^^~~~~
further up and further in
One of the greatest crimes of all is
to stand - in silence
in the face of wrongdoing.
force rebounds upon the wielder
violence ultimately results in extinction
white wolfe sits amidst dark emptiness
and hears the sound of snow falling
what is it that white wolfe hears
that mankind does not?
tools are weapons of violence
shunned by all creatures of nature
creatures that follow nature
want nothing to do with tools
all tools eventually turn into weapons
in the hands of the unawakened
those who remain unevolving, who slumber,
eagerly using tools to press their advantage
they remain unmindful of the deep wisdom
your enemy is enemy second and brother first
force rebounds upon the wielder
violence ultimately results in extinction
white wolfe runs tracklessly on bright waters
and sees the wings of eagles arising
what is it that white wolfe sees
that mankind cannot?
all tools arise from the intent to overpower
even in the hands of the awakened
the wise ones still evolving, who remember,
use tools only when compelled by nature
they remain mindful of the first knowledge
that all appearances of duality are illusion
why cannot mankind see
what the golden eye of the wolfe sees
the white tipped wings of golden eagles arising
endlessly on the cosmic wind into pure spirit
violence ultimately results in extinction
force rebounds upon the wielder
white wolfe and the golden eagle
silently call humanity to remembrance
there is no pleasure in victory, because
to rejoice in victory is to delight in gratuitous violence
whatever is gratuitous is against creatures
whatever is against creatures is against nature
why cannot mankind hear
what the upright ears of the wolfe hear
the white wings of the noble eagle descending
hovering eternally over immortal waters
violence ultimately results in extinction
force rebounds upon the wielder
the golden eagle and white wolfe
call wildly to our remembrance
violence is a necessary evil, controlled
only when death is wielded to sustain nature herself
whatever is necessary is mindful of all creatures
whatever is mindful of creatures nature sustains
if force rebounds upon the wielder
if violence ultimately results in extinction
what does the white wolfe sitting say to us
what does he hear in the sound of snow falling
what does the wolfe running on water show us
what does he see in the wings of eagles
if violence is a necessary but abhorred evil
and peace is an essential and desired good
where is the center of radical non-duality?
follow the white wolfe or follow the golden eagle
either will teach you about compassion and humility
both commit violence, both do what is required
one wields death in jaws, the other in its talons
the one saves the pack, the other the flock
how do they do this and still love each other
every death for them is a rite of passage, a sacrament
they dispense death as though to a member of family
with sorrow and suffering, each death is a funeral for kin
they, unlike humankind, live in the place of non-duality.
we are all creatures born of the womb of the universe
our brothers call us with a wild call to return to our womb
to the place of stillness, darkness, of radical non-duality
mark christopher valentine
(December 4, 2000)