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NDS Highlights for Sunday 11/26/00

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  • Mark Otter
    Ed: One of my favorite quotes from Jim Morrison is Everything is broken up and dances... That s how I felt reading the first several posts on Sunday, which
    Message 1 of 1 , Nov 27, 2000
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      Ed: One of my favorite quotes from Jim Morrison is "Everything is broken
      up and dances..." That's how I felt reading the first several posts on
      Sunday, which tended to be replies to posts from Saturday. Here is a
      response by Christiana to Omkara, aka Tim...

      C: Good morning, Omkara..

      First I'd like to apologize for not honoring the name which you are
      receiving to be called. I have recently begun a new and intense job.
      Weeks have gone by when I could only read the highlights, and I missed
      the significance of your new name.

      O: No need to include my name as part of the "discussion" between "Gene"
      and "I."

      C: Yet, I have done so.. in honor of what arose in you to authentically
      engage in dialogue with Gene. Beyond the ordinary mind's claim to "not
      understand Gene".. a movement arose to engage. I trust that movement,
      and your authentic questions were received as my own.

      O: "I" do not speak "Gene's" language.

      C: The locus of your attention (which appears to have shifted), appears
      to you as a "difference". I suggest, (as has Gene) that in truth, there
      is no difference.

      O: That is not a negative reflection on "Gene," nor on "Tim." If when
      speaking to a native Chinese, one of the parties don't understand, are
      one or the other at fault?

      C: When my daughter was studying Chinese, she understood that to openly
      enter the language, was to also enter the mind-construct from which it
      emanated. It only took maintenance of an open mind.

      O: There was an attempt at translation / interpretation on my part, and
      it was, for the most part, a failure.

      C: Perhaps, the folly lies in the "attempt at translation". Perhaps, a
      relaxing into the space from which it arises.. beyond any attempts.. is
      the ticket.

      O: I don't know if he speaks "my" language or not, because I don't
      speak his.

      C: Again, I suggest, that the division employed.. of "his" and "my".. is
      a facet of the conundrum.

      O: At least not on the level of words, on the level of thought.

      C: And.. are you mixing levels here. What would happen if you relaxed
      the bindings.

      O: His language is too complex for me. Its complexity flies right over
      my head, just as Japanese does. "I" am too simple and basic to even
      begin to comprehend such complexity, such massive concept-webs spun out
      of nothingness.

      C: I sense fear arising here. A *fear of failure*, being one flavor.
      What if you slipped out of that identification? What if you rested in
      the Love behind the appearance of "concept-webs"?

      O: Many find such webs beautiful to look at. Dan and Gene are masters
      at spinning webs.

      C: If Dan and Gene's intent were to spin beautiful webs for our
      amusement or to ensnare us in complexity of mind, then many might indeed
      be caught by the daze (they are very good). I, however, perceive no such
      intent. For me, each of these men have danced on my screen in the guise
      of teacher, mentor and friend. Foremost, however, has been the sense of
      their being midwives. I do not read them to *comprehend*. I find both
      their language, as well as their carefully crafted "webs", merely the
      gracefully woven fabric of the birth canal. What is far more symphonic
      to this *ear* is the "space" from which they speak. The pulsation, known
      here, entrains upon that space heard as echo, through them. I don't
      know how it is that I understand them, but I do. It is as though they
      articulate a facet of knowing which is stunningly familiar; in
      conjunction with what is, as yet, only intuited as an expression beyond
      this birth canal. I recognize my stage in this movement of being, and I
      no longer resist the pangs of contraction.

      O: "Gene" seems to know a lot. "I" know nothing at all.

      C: I don't compare Gene. I don't compare myself. I receive Gene's
      knowing when it applies.. with gratitude.

      O: Words are useless, pointless to "me." As pointers, they no longer
      point to anything but themselves. I look at these concept-webs and see
      empty space.

      C: Words can be imbibed; resisted; or opened to as conveyors of essence.
      The choice is always facet of our freedom. May I suggest that you
      self-reflect on the facet of identity which is positioning itself in
      resistance? This is the breaking mechanism Gene speaks of. As Gene
      suggests, "relax the leg".

      O: "I" cannot continue on this list, at least at the level of debate or
      discussion or "verbal dancing."

      C: I agree. The steam from your breaking mechanism is revealing itself.
      The locus of that "I" is struggling. Eye see you Omkara.. beyond the "I"
      who cannot continue.

      O: I could not debate "nondual principles" even with a child. My
      knowledge all seems to have fled.

      I am literally no longer able to understand anything.

      There is no desire to understand.

      Wordless Presence is enough.

      C: Ah.. how well I grasp this.. yet is not the continuation of an
      identity with some resistance occluding the "Wordless Presence"?

      Your life dance affords you *time* to rest in Presence (as well, it
      would seem, *time* to read, post, and assume positions). Mine has less
      of such luxury. I am now at 2 a.m. coming from a 15 hr (two job) work
      shift. Daily I am in the Coliseum of Life. Opportunities to resist
      abound. Yet, knowing my place, in This birth canal, I no longer have the
      option to resist. Or.. more accuratly.. resistance occurs, but it is
      seen through. What remains, is the Stream.... and it obliterates

      I also.. "know nothing". I am being abided.

      Love to you, my companion...

      Ed: Gene also responded point by point to Tim (Omkara)::

      Hi Tim, a (somewhat tickled) response to you:

      G: Thanks. I admit to a tad bit of disappointment, with Tim's refusal to
      engage. But that is his right, and he need not make any excuses.

      O: (or is it T?): If I understood what you were saying, I might
      "engage." But you might as well be speaking Chinese, I've already said
      it more than once. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. Can I make
      that any more clear?

      G: Yes. You could explain _why_ you do not understand. You are a native
      English speaker, have a large vocabulary, and evidence sophisticated
      understanding of esoteric systems of logic (machine languages, Boolean
      logic, etc). You have described tiredness, but that in itself does not
      prohibit understanding, it merely delays it, perhaps infinitely.

      O: Apparently you disbelieve the above statement. That's your right, and
      you need not make any excuses.

      G: I have evidenced no 'disbelief' of your professed non-understanding,
      merely feigned puzzlement.

      O: Same for Bruce, he also apparently disbelieves the above, attributing
      my "failure to engage" to "abject laziness" and "self-indulgence," then
      goes on to state "We all do it," as if he has elected himself the
      representative of Humanity, Sri Lord Bruce-acharya Maharaj, the latest

      G: If Bruce says to someone, "I am big", it does not mean that he is
      also saying, "you are small".

      O: Then again, Bruce has already insinuated that he has a "Divinely big
      ego," and when speaking to him I always keep that in mind. His own
      assertion appears to be "God's Truth" as seen from here. At least he
      doesn't lie about it.

      G: Well, that evidences Bruce's self-awareness, does it not? I mean, at
      least he is honest about it, and usually abstains from false humility. I
      find that quality of his, quite refreshing!

      O: Personally, you both appear as bloated balloons of meaningless, empty
      conceptualization and carefully-hidden "self-importance."


      G: Carefully hidden? I don't think so.

      Meaningless, empty conceptualization? Why, yes, what else is there?

      And you, Tim-O, have put yourself squarely on the Throne of the Judge;
      you claim (it seems) the majority position, professing
      non-understanding, and at the same time, disqualifying what you do not
      understand. This is, IMO, a rather severe error, and possibly also a
      harbinger of future errors of the same sort. "Danger, Will Robinson!"

      And speaking of bloated balloons, all it takes is one little prick, to
      deflate. Maybe that is what is meant by 'pop-culture'.

      Empty and meaningless,

      ==Gene Poole==


      Ed: Will continued his conversation with Gene, and I tried to pick out
      the parts I liked, but it was a long post and I kept changing my mind
      about it, so what I've done is to include it just as it was, but I put
      it at the end of the highlights, with two asterisks, to warn you that
      it's long. ** (so if you want to read it now, skip past the next stuff
      until you get to the two asterisks.)

      Ed: Here Andrew tells of his visit to Arunachala Ashrama, Nova Scotia:

      In the rural hamlet of Clarence, Nova Scotia, in the beautiful
      agricultural countryside of the Annapolis Valley, there is an ashram and
      retreat centre dedicated to Bhagwan Sri Ramana Maharshi, an adjunct to
      the Ashram by the same name in New York City. Though it is only an
      hour's drive from my home, and though I've known it was there for a long
      time, somehow I never got around to visiting. Until last week. I emailed
      saying I would like to visit and got a reply from Dennis, the devotee
      who manages the ashram, asking me please to come. So I went, on Friday

      The ashram property is an old farm, nestled against the south-facing
      slope of North Mountain, which is a steep 700 foot high escarpment which
      forms one side of the valley. It's a quiet place at this time of year,
      only Dennis, a tall, scholarly man in his early 50's with a calm and
      gentle manner, and one retreatant, Sriram, who is in New York for a year
      on a teaching fellowship were there that afternoon. I was welcomed into
      the warm kitchen of the 200 year old farmhouse and we ate a delicious
      lunch of pasta and salad while out the window an early snow fell
      steadily. The view up the valley from the kitchen window is wonderful.
      Outside, two mourning doves sat all fluffed up against the cold in the
      branches of an apple tree. After lunch, Dennis showed me the temple,
      which is in a former one-room school building, beautifully renovated.
      Prayers and devotions are done there every morning (starting at 4:30!)
      and evening. Inside is a peaceful, simply beautiful space, high ceiling
      and tall windows, at the end of the room, on a raised dais, sits a life
      size statue of Sri Ramana, a cast taken from the one at Arunachala in
      India, there are a few relics, some verses done in embroidery hanging on
      the walls, a photo of the late Arunachala Bhakta Bhagawata, the founder
      of the New York and Nova Scotia ashram, and a frequent visitor in Nova
      Scotia. We went back to the house for tea, and talked a little about
      our lives and histories, about bhakta and jnana. I mentioned
      Harshasatsangh and the NDS, Dennis remembered having once spoken to
      Harsha by phone. It was a delightful afternoon, and I shall certainly
      be returning, often I hope.


      Ed: White Wolf echoes Andrew's experience...

      Brother Andrew:

      ...your experience as recounted below, except for unimportant
      particulars of time and space, is exactly the same as mine to Tessahara
      and the SF Zen Monastery...of course, for me, this experience is also
      re-enacted everytime i enter a Catholic Church anywhere and approach the
      either the Shrine of the Sacred Heart of Jesus or the Shrine of the
      Blessed Virgin...the manifestations of the infinite are everywhere...we
      who think we are blind merely need to remove our hands from our eyes to
      see...a poem follows...^^~~~~

      further up and further in...,

      white wolfe

      Ed: Jerry informed us of new aspects of the NDS homepage:

      I added Gene's recent article on abiding, Gloria's movie review, and
      Shankar's on-going translations (posted to the I Am list) about Ramana's
      life, to the home page:

      Also added a postage stamp of Jack Kerouac, designed by David Hodges.

      Nonduality for/by/to/at/with/of the People <http://www.nonduality.com>


      Ed: In response to a conversation between Jerry and Omkara, Jan pointed
      to the Patanjali Sutras:

      In the Patanjali Sutras, an entire chapter is dedicated to power. The
      mechanism of acquiring power is what I have defined as "messing with the
      identification matrix". The identification matrix is the entire array of
      identifications (they are linked, related) and they include everything
      that makes up a human being - that includes urges, like breathing and
      sexuality too.

      Patanjali, chapter III is devoted to what could be called substitution:
      replace one identification with another one (the desired siddhi). In
      simple language, by (temporarily) forgetting the identification 'feeling
      of body' and identifying with a cloud, the body will levitate. The art
      of arbitrary identification is very difficult - and it will only bring
      more bondage. For the "dedicated" nondualist, the identification
      matrix could be called ultimate bondage - the sum of of everything, said
      to be either "human" or "natural". So such a one doesn't have a choice
      but to "wait" for the collapse of that identification matrix. In the
      vast majority of cases however, the collapse is simultaneous with the
      death of the body - "bad luck again" :) But this is, what the term
      "siddha" is referring to...


      Ed: I don't know about the inevitability of warp drives, but I am
      confident of the inevitability of the rise of NonDuality as a political
      force, under the leadership of Jerry Katz, so I decided to include this
      prophetic peice by David Hodges <g>:

      Dear fellow travellers on spaceship earth:

      In the early years of the third millenium, two white men in their early
      50's of exactly equal political appeal (or lack thereof) are fighting to
      gain control of the Executive Branch of the increasingly archaic
      geopolitical entity known as the United States of America. Whoever wins
      will come into office as a "wounded duck" and will have to display great
      and hitherto undetected qualities of leadership to be able to govern

      10 years ago, the archaic geopolitical entity known as the Soviet Union
      split apart with a minimum of bloodshed. It surprised many people that
      such a colossal state could break up so suddenly, and yet in hindsight
      many signs of the impending breakup were evident.

      In future years will this contested election be pointed to as one of the
      signs that the United States was entering the period when its
      institutions and its will to be a superstate faltered, and the seeds of
      its break up started to sprout?

      The idea of a "nation" is highly conceptual and not at all long
      standing. Most of the "nations" of Europe did not exist in their
      present form 100 years ago, and many, like Yugoslavia and
      Czechoslovakia, have already come and gone. The so-called United Kingdom
      is already going through the process of shrinking, as it lost first its
      empire, and now is loosening its grip on Ireland and Scotland and Wales.

      Canada as a political entity has always seemed shaky, and the impetus
      for Quebec to start a Canadian breakup is waiting for a spark.

      The example of Israel and the Palestinians shows how very violent the
      idea of a Nation is, when confronted with sharply divergent interest
      groups sharing the same geography. Attempts to create or maintain
      nations under such circumstances hardly seem worth the bloodshed and
      heartbreak such efforts cause.

      Meanwhile, back in the U.S., does true power reside in Washington
      anymore? Did the issues raised in the last campaign - being mostly
      about Medicare, Social Security, and how to spend the surplus, really
      address where the real focus of power is shifting to in this country: a
      generational raising of consciousness that increasingly places planetary
      values ahead of national values?

      Planetary values are such things as: preserving the environment,
      checking population growth, ensuring an adequate food supply for every
      one on earth, raising health standards everywhere, controlling the
      spread of AIDS in Africa and Asia, and, increasingly, preparing the
      earth for the inevitable leap into galactic citizenship which will come
      in the next hundred years as space travel and exploration becomes more
      of a reality.

      Increasingly radical scientific discoveries about the nature of quantum
      reality will inevitably lead to the actual implementation of such things
      as warp drives and instantaneous relocation across vast reaches of space
      that have been written about in science fiction for decades. As this
      reality begins to reshape the consciousness of the citizens of earth,
      the forces of change that will be unleashed will, after many birth
      spasms, divolve much formerly national power both to regional
      governments AND to pan-national entities like the EU. Eventually,
      local and regional decisions will be made locally and regionally, and
      global decisions will be made on a global level, and the idea of the
      armed and dangerous Nation-State will wither.

      This process, I think, is inevitable, though there may arise new Abraham
      Lincolns who hold off the process for decades or even a century or two.
      But it will happen. There is just no need for Nation-States, bristling
      with weapons, and jealous of their territorial sovereignty, any more.
      The quaint process of "voting" by punching ballots and aggregating
      these votes to "state electors" is now on the table, shown for the
      archaic, futile mechanism that it is. The rise of cyberspace via the
      Internet and now through wireless satellite networks everywhere, creates
      communities of interest that do unlimited end-runs around national
      sovereignty at every level.

      I could see this election starting a process whereby the Northeast,
      including New England and New York, where I live, might decide to go it
      alone, or perhaps might join forces with Nova Scotia (so we can get
      Jerry), in order to get out from the thumb of Texans like Mr. Bush.

      Similarly, the Pacific states, California, Oregon, and Washington,
      might team up with British Columbia under leadership centered in
      Redmond, Washington, or Sunnyvale, California, where the true power
      lies. The midwest and south can enjoy their own version of reality under
      the leaders that they continue to put forward, such as Pat Buchanan and
      Bob Dole. And Florida, poor Florida, now so divided and stigmatized,
      will become the Israel/Palestine battleground of the South, or, perhaps,
      will join up with Cuba after Fidel dies to try something new and

      Spiritually speaking, all this happens in tandem with the spread of
      NonDuality, which continues to grow (under many names and guises) from
      the faltering relics of the established churches and religions whose
      influence is increasingly hollow and ignored. NonDuality might indeed be
      the key to the power in the coming World Federation that will lift us to
      the Galactic Age. My vote is for Jerry Katz, the first Chairman of the
      Federated Regional States of Planet Earth!

      Peace, fellow citizens of Planet Earth!

      Ed: Jerry replied:

      Thank you for the very interesting letter, David, and the nomination.
      Your sense of the changeability of nations finds accord here. I intend
      to be the nominee for President, running for the Nonduality Party in
      2004. Basically our platform will be one of widespread compassion and
      reasonableness in running the country, while spending much time creating
      stronger bonds with all nations. Americans will be encouraged to reach
      out first to their families and eventually out to the world. This will
      be the healing Presidency. We'll heal ourselves, the environment and the
      world. It is what people want, but since no one offers leadership in
      that way, so many have no choice but to deal with their disease, their
      crippled nature. Prepare, David, for a high level position in the
      government. Many others here will be offered high-level positions. How
      do we legally create the Nonduality Party? We need people in every
      State to get involved.

      The President

      (ed note: Actually, this sounds like a Canadian invasion to me, and
      might be just the thing to pull the country together...)

      Ed: Bringing us back home, Christina asked:

      For knowing so much, you all seem to talk a lot about the same things!
      I'm sorry, but I've been lurking around for some time, and all I see is
      a group of "adults" who are bent on (hehe) showing off their "spiritual
      knowledge". Back and forth, you keep throwing ideas at each other,
      just waiting for someone to argue your point with, so that (hopefully)
      all will think, "Wow, s/he is sure wise!". But is that really why you
      originally subscribed to this list? Or did you want to learn
      something? I know I did. But all I have "learned" is that I already
      know what I wanted to learn.

      So, what brings me back? Is it the need for approval of my ideas,
      stemming from that uneasiness a new thought/discovery brings? Naw- I
      just want to see some real wisdom shared, so that maybe- just maybe- I
      will learn something new. And I'm still waiting.

      Christina :) "Don't burn the day away"-DMB

      Ed: Andrew replied in a to the point manner:

      What is it that you wanted to learn and found you already know? Now that
      you know what you know, what happens now? Also who's DMB?


      Ed: While White Wolf replied poetically:


      bored to death we are....

      What is Endless is Love

      "Forget. Surrender. Love."

      white wolfe sits alone in the snowy darkness

      humbly sitting in drifting white snow
      his open ears hearing the cosmic wind
      his golden eyes burning the silver moon
      his sensitive nose touching the stars
      his wild voice and song in harmony
      with all that is within and that is beyond...

      humility is the beginning of surrender,
      surrender is the beginning of love,
      love is the beginning of compassion
      compasssion endures
      that which endures goes far
      that which goes far returns
      that which returns has no end
      that which has no end is endless
      compassion is endless
      therefore, humility is endless,
      therefore, surrender is endless
      therefore, love itself is endless
      therefore the lover is endless
      therefore the beloved is endless

      Therefore, the lover and beloved are one
      i who am sometimes called Mark am endless
      i who recognize myself as white wolfe am free.

      I am the Lover in love with the Beloved.
      I am the white wolfe in love with the moon.

      with all that is within and that is beyond
      his wild voice and song in harmony
      his sensitive nose touching the stars
      his golden eyes burning the silver moon
      his open ears hearing the cosmic wind
      humbly sitting in drifting white snow

      white wolfe calls silently to you and me always
      to follow, follow him into and beyond the drifting Moon.

      white wolfe sits not alone in the snowy darkness.

      Mark Christopher Valentine
      (November 24, 2000)

      Ed: Jerry responded by inviting Christina to go deeper...

      Dave Matthews Band, yes. How do you learn anything, Christina? Did you
      wait for someone to say something wise and then suddenly you were potty
      trained? Did you wait for someone to say something wise and then you
      suddenly had a sense of right and wrong? Did you wait for someone to say
      something wise and then suddenly your own way of expression matured?
      Stop waiting for someone to say something wise. You immerse yourself in
      a place or culture where you feel you belong and then you allow things
      to work, allow unfolding to happen. You're only seeing the surface.
      You're only hearing the music and seeing the lights flashing from around
      the corner. You have to actually go around the corner. Stop listening
      and looking and join the party.




      Ed: Michael Read responded with a metaphor (or is it a simile?) (perhaps
      just a smile...):

      Yah! Tis a 'crack-up'!

      This salon is often like a huge sandbox. Somewhere in the sandbox are
      hidden a few precious jewels. A lot of sand has to be sifted from time
      to time just to find a fragment of a ruby or a shard of a diamond.

      Over in the corner there is a little tussle going on about who has the
      best toys for sifting the sand. Somebody is shouting that no-one is
      sifting properly. Some are building lovely little sand castles and
      calling all who care to see. Some are explaining how the sand is good
      while some are also explaining how the sand is bad. Others like to point
      out that the good sand is really the bad sand and the bad sand is the
      good sand.

      It's just sand. The jewels are just jewels. Sifting is just sifting.
      What makes the sandbox beautiful are the players in the sandbox.

      Peace - the universe in a grain of sand - Michael

      Ed: Christiana replied to Christina philosophically:

      Hello Christina..

      I wonder what moved you to speak at this particular time?

      A facet of how this list serves me is through observation of the
      movement of thoughts which arise to express. It is an alive place to
      observe (and listen to) the genesis of language.. movement of
      expression. Which voices echo within and what arises to interact with
      them? To come closer to discerning the canned-voice from
      vitality-as-voice. In the end.. it is always an interaction with what
      arises as self. So.. this endless dialogue with self. Refinement or
      delusion? And yet.. often, self in the guise as other.. in
      relationship.. seems to be how I stand closer to knowing Self.

      I rarely on this list perceive people writing, with intent to appear
      wise. We may, however, be writing to better see what is appearing
      clearly... as us. In equal measure with what is still murky.

      So.. what was "cracking up" as you wrote? You've introduced yourself as
      seeing something here to push against. There really is nothing here but
      what we bring. Push, pull, yield.. it all goes in the crucible.

      Listening with you.

      ** Here is that long conversation between Will and Gene in case you want

      From: will <mikebrooks@b...>
      Date: Sun Nov 26, 2000 8:11am
      Subject: gene: Re: Unrequited reply to Tim

      Still dancing...

      --- In NondualitySalon@egroups.com, Gene Poole


      > >>G: 'Ego' or 'me' or 'I' is an emanation of the immune
      > >of the body itself; this reaction of protection
      > >(as you have pointed out)
      > >exists even in the ameba.
      > >W: 'Ego' or 'me' or 'I' or "I/me/you" is an outgrowth
      of the
      > >Hormonal(Limbic)-Neuronal(Cortical) connection, and can

      > >not be ignored. This "duality" which IS man, at his
      > >level, has one sole purpose - continuance, Life. Its
      > >are not dissimilar to that of Life itself. Up and Down
      > >Rays of Creation/Destruction, these two forces merge in
      > >moment-by-moment dance of death.
      > Death?
      > Yes, if it is the death of the 'incidental' life-forms
      which are
      > sacrificed to sustain this one... participation in an
      > chain of life.

      Certainly death!
      But the death of the physical is of no continuing concern,
      being as
      it were, inevitable. Death of the intellect is of more
      concern - and
      has been proceeding apace since about the age of 15, once
      hormones kicked in and began seriously running the
      neuronal show.

      (BTW: The "Rays" (used above) was a mere contrivance, of
      pertaining to 4thway information you, and others here, are
      with, and used only to "make a point").

      > >"I/me/you" is the present, the "presence"... ...a
      > >self-referential feedback loop of sensation and
      > >driven by Hormones to think Thoughts...
      > Actually, it is integral, all of it. No 'part' is
      inferior to any
      > other.

      "Actually" - as in "Really? - as in not "Un-really?"
      Whereas no "part" is inferior, and all "parts" are alive
      (and well),
      the distinction being made above is that "I..." is a
      process - a
      quite well-defined and observable process - NOT a thing,
      NOT a "part".

      Discovering (first) the process, and Controlling (second)
      process, is my ongoing endeavor. Though very few even
      discover that
      it IS a process, fewer still learn it can be controlled,
      to some
      extent, by employing certain techniques we've all heard
      (self-remembering, stopping thought, etc.), so there is no
      need to
      go into them here.

      > >"I/me/you" is a construct of a mans' brains' inability
      > >consume the complex energies which course UP his
      > >system into his headstone/capstone.
      > That is one way to say it, yes. This 'inability' you
      allude to is
      > not a universal condition, however.

      "That is one way to say it?"

      EVERYTHING is "one way to say it".
      "No 'way' is inferior to any other."
      Why did you feel you needed to clarify that?

      The "inability" is a condition of ordinary people, like
      you, like me,
      like the corner grocery-store clerk or bank teller. It is
      a condition
      of Lifes' having "evolved" people ONLY up to a certain
      point - People
      are NOT finished, unlike animals which ARE finished. There
      are nerve
      endings, in the brains of some people, which are not
      cauterized, and as such, are waving free. Moving energy to
      waving nerve endings, which RARELY - if ever - get any at
      represents ones Life-given possibility for a higher (to

      > >"I/me/you" is the "invented-by-brains-'YOU'" and its
      > >residence is the "capstone" (while alive), and
      > >(when dead). It is not something external, nor eternal
      > >it is wholly unreal.
      > There again, is the resort to the tired 'unreal'.
      > In fact, it is neither real nor unreal. It is termed

      There again, is the resort to the tired REMINDING of the
      'real/unreal' controversy. What about the
      controversy, and the "sleep/awake" controversy - where do
      you stand
      on them?

      Jeez - take it simply, take it "relatively".

      Words are unreal (compared to tables). There is no
      "resorting" about
      it. Lay your words here, on this table, and I'll concede
      the point.
      You can't do that, so you must concede the point.

      Actually, what's in question here is the "reality" of the
      BEHIND words - and how that energy enters a human brain,
      (somehow) produces perceptible conscious thought,
      self-talk, and its
      audible outpouring speech.

      (((Well - how DOES that happen? How IS it that you can
      talk TO
      yourself, and hear yourself talking? Please describe the
      process if
      you know it.)))

      Anyway, to continue; even SPEECH (those silly little
      mouth-noises) is
      wholly unreal (beyond the vibrations in air produced by
      the movement
      of vocal cords) - regardless of its "effect" on others.
      Where there
      is such "effect", it is only the result of their OWN
      brains thinking
      about the thoughts they heard - NOT, the result of the

      This is the non-dual-blindness that keeps many from
      even simple things, without arguing, or avoiding.

      The grass IS green, the rose IS red, the sky IS blue.
      (of course, more can be said and understood about those 3
      but literally, they are still true - well, true enough)

      > >"I/me/you" is at its core, a word only - meaningless.
      > >Meaning, is mechanical-linkage (attachment), to other
      > >words. No one consciously "creates" a meaning for
      > >"I/me/you" - "I/me/you" comes packaged, and delivered,
      > >with its own "meaning".
      > I would say, that it is instead, comprised entirely of

      That is precisely what was stated:
      > >""I/me/you" comes packaged, and delivered, with its own
      And the meaning is meaningless - it MEANS nothing. It IS

      >...but it is meaning which is packed into a space, and
      that space
      > is unseen, the meaning taking attention, the space going
      > It is important to see the space. There are worlds of
      > but only this one space.

      Perhaps this can be further delved into by us:
      The "self" that one can talk about (like we're sort of
      doing here),
      nevertheless, consists of "words" which can be "thought"
      by human
      brains. Those words "reside" in the neural connections of
      the gray
      matter - the last part of the brain to evolve and the
      "physical part" in man. There is nothing "physical" which
      is higher
      than conscious thought.

      (People want to SAY emotion is higher, but if you did not
      have a
      capacity to think and further, to think about thinking,
      you could not
      "feel" human emotions - you could certainly experience
      Fear, Anger,
      and other instinctive emotions, but NOT the higher ones -
      love, charity, etc. - for they all require a thinking
      capacity to

      "Words and emotions are living entities USING man as
      They are processes, not feeding on man but allowing a flow
      of energy
      thru their (words and emotions) action. Their "effect on
      man" IS

      All this flowing of energy occurs below the surface, as it
      Below the surface of his consciousness - he is NOT
      conscious of any
      of it. All words, all "meanings", exist below the surface
      of his OWN
      level of consciousness (whatever that level IS for him).

      That is not to say that this energy-flow is unconscious
      for EVERYone,
      just MOST. If a person could raise his own level of
      above his ordinary level, he'd understand more about what
      is going on
      "down there", would know that "I..." and all that is
      associated with
      that is emptiness cubed.

      > >Beyond that, there are two paths and two paths alone.
      > >Mechanical linking and Conscious Linking. Lateral
      > >expansion of consciousness and Vertical expansion. Both

      > >can occur simultaneously, and is the reason for the
      > >"apparent" bigness of "mind and imagination." Seemingly

      > >infinite.

      > Mechanical is always taking place; without it, the
      > perishes.
      > Conscious is, (in this context) as you may realize, not
      > 'individual' in the sense of
      > separate; it is 'distributed', to as many nodes as will
      allow the
      > carriage of it.

      Only a individual can raise his own level of
      consciousness. No books,
      no teachers, no systems, no "ways" can help, for the real
      work to
      proceed. Those "aids" may be required to "get one
      started", but you
      do the work alone and experience the results alone. As
      such, who
      cares about other "nodes"?

      Though, it is probably true that two or more "conscious"
      people can
      converse and be friends, it is doubtful whether they carry
      ridiculous conversations like we're now having - really,
      to what
      purpose? Walking Buddha's don't need teachers/students

      > >There IS no "I/me/you".
      > >It was not there at birth, but only as a potential of a

      > >mind that can think, and can "think about thinking".
      > >Proof: if it can NOT be laid upon the table, it IS
      > Saying that it is 'unreal' is a convenience, not a
      truth. Again,
      > saying 'unreal' posits 'real', and what would that be?

      Real is "real for me". Tables are "real for me".
      Unreal is "unreal for me". Words are "unreal for me".

      The grass IS green, the rose IS red, the sky IS blue.
      (of course, more can be said and understood about those 3
      but literally, they are still true - well, true enough)

      > >To "think about un-realities", is the most useless
      > >activity, and is the common state of man.
      > Yes, agreed, so why do it?

      Why? That's a hoot!
      That's ALL people do, minute-by-minute, hour-by-hour,
      driven till they drop. There is a very DEFINITE purpose
      why people do
      it - because that's all they CAN do, all they're supposed
      to do - and
      Life is running the show.

      But for someone who's discovered the game, and wha
      Well, that's certainly another matter.

      > Real and unreal... are an unnecessary complication,
      which tends
      > to obscure, by contributing objects to a space which is
      desired to
      > be clear. Real and unreal cancel each other, leaving
      > >"I/me/you" can not exist "in the future" - to it, THAT
      > >outside its dynamic. (note: tomorrow is not "the
      future" -
      > >"The Future" is a kind of New Thinking, evolved
      > >post-evolutionary-thinking, and beyond).
      > Your passion is admirable!

      Passion - well, once, I boarded a train, thinking it was
      railing to
      Byzantium (Constantinople, Istanbul - jeez, what's with
      all the name
      changes?), and there we all were, mindlessly looking out
      the window,
      taking in the scenery, snapping pictures for our
      memory-books, having
      a gay ol' time. Occasionally, the train would stop and
      others would
      board, also hoping to arrive at the presumed destination.
      Once, at
      night, looking out the porthole in my room, I spied a
      bizarre sight -
      the windows were painted. THE WINDOWS WERE PAINTED! And no
      one even

      Passion? Like the passion an imprisoned man feels when
      first learning
      he is IN prison - and worse, a prison with no walls, and
      even worse,
      the guards are his friends and family. Till then, he was
      glad to
      stay. Since then, there has been only abiding thought -
      escape. But,
      who you gonna ask the way out? Your Cell-mates?

      > >>G: The 'I' is an 'experimental navigator', a
      > >holo-projection, designed to enhance the survival of
      > >organism itself. It accomplishes
      > >this enhancement of survival, by the faculty of mind
      > >imagination; this
      > >is why mind and imagination are so (seemingly)
      > >disproportionately 'big'. The most useful (for
      > >aspects of our human design, are obviously our main
      > >features.
      > >The "experimental navigator" is the future. It does not

      > >YET exist in man.
      > Hey, Will, if it does not exist, how do I know about it?


      The "experimental navigator" is the budding
      super-conscious waving
      nerve-endings which have YET to experience anything (or
      very little).

      "I..." is not that Neural Explorer, that Subversive, that
      "I..." is the establishment, the civilized, stable part of

      One does not "know about something" just because one can

      You call "I" a holo-projection and RE-name it as something
      else -
      "experimental navigator". To what end? Defining one
      unknown with
      another - that's all. All of it is functioning inside a
      box and all
      discussion about the contents of a box are just that. So

      There are TWO kinds of people:
      1) those who think there are TWO kinds of people
      2) those who don't

      1) those that think the "all and everything" is a closed
      system -
      "all there CAN be"
      2) those that think the "all and everything" is a closed
      system - but
      there is a way out.

      You picks yer poison and you drinks yer poison.
      Just don't give yer poison to me, thankuvedymuch.

      > That is the trouble with the 'high bar' of the 4th Way;
      > by definition, nobody can be 'okay' right now.

      People, ALL people, are OK right now. There were
      absolutely NO
      intimations made by me otherwise. If you inferred that
      from reading
      my words, you were mistaken. People are birthed by Life to
      "what-they-now-are", and, in a few,

      Either way, everyone is OK and no one NEEDS to do anything
      their current "state" unless they WANT to, NEED to -
      having FIRST
      discovered the desire/need to do that, and then mustering
      necessary energy to make a lifetime of unnecessary

      > 'I am' this holographic-state construct, I will have you
      > And anyone who thinks they are anything other than this,

      > is simply mistaken. Of course, it has taken many years
      > this concept (holography) to emerge, so earlier savants
      > can be forgiven for the lack of proper metaphor.
      > "I am so pure, I am writing this 5,000 years in the
      > future".````````````````````````````````````````````````

      > This is NOT A DREAM!

      Hope you're happy.
      I'm sure you ARE exactly what you SAY you are.
      Do you have a Bio of the next 5000 years of navigation I
      could read?
      Perhaps you could illuminate us all as to what Mankind of
      far-future is like.

      Just kidding.

      > >W: To study the contents of a box, in which all men are

      > >almost destined to spend ALL their days, is to discover

      > >NOTHING about getting OUT OF THE BOX (who you gonna
      > >your box-mates?). If what you want to know, is why some

      > >people are deluded, then go for it. If what you want to

      > >know is how to get OUT of the box, then you're barking
      > >the wrong nerve-endings.
      > Whom are you addressing here?

      No one.
      These are just ideas pointing to something outside the
      realms. Take it or leave it.

      > >>G: So there is nowhere to stand, to observe
      > >this means that all doctrines are specious. Human
      > >emanates from doctrinal disputes, and that is the meat
      > >the world-dream. It is all 'political'.
      > >W: "Only those who can't, say 'no one can'. To say 'no
      > >can' is living proof that the SPEAKER can't."
      > And I might ask... of what relevance is the above

      Thought it was obvious!
      >>G: So there is nowhere to stand, to observe 'correctly'.

      which strongly suggested to me, that YOU have nowhere to
      stand, and
      thus EVERYONE has nowhere to stand, and thus "correct"
      observation is
      not possible (for you).

      Is that NOT what you were suggesting?

      In any case, the ditty: "Only those who can't...." is
      applicable, don't you think?

      > >There is another place to stand - above your own
      > >level, of Consciousness. Forget about someone else's
      > >level. Sure, it's almost impossible and no one you know

      > >has ever done it, or if they have, they wouldn't tell
      > >- THAT does not belie the possibility.
      > Hey... what about me? Eeep! Eeep!

      Do you disagree?
      It SEEMS you're beginning to retreat from the
      conversation, such as
      it is, and down here, your "tone" seems more and more
      sarcastic, even
      politely caustic. Have you run out of "arguments", and now
      "resorting" (eeeps! there's your word again) to attacking

      > >(Someone "told" you, you were "asleep" and "could
      > >- though from then till today, you couldn't name
      > >who Was Awake (and, rightfully so).
      > Do you, Will, admit to the fact, that 'awake' is a
      > If so, it is a metaphor for[please fill in this space
      with your


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