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Monday November 6th

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  • andrew macnab
    _____________________________________________________________________________________ Dependent is almost synonymous with conditioned and the spinning mind
    Message 1 of 1 , Nov 7, 2000
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      Dependent is almost synonymous with conditioned and the spinning mind mainly revolves
      around this conditioning - to such an extent that admitting it won't change one iota
      by itself. Only life itself can provide the "crash course" to abandon conditioning
      whereas "methods and systems" will talk one into the use of air bags... So it doesn't
      come as a surprise there are "teachers", cashing in on seekers persuaded to give up
      cash :)

      Love,
      Jan


      ************
      Exactly Jan. Very well put. Life itself is what does the trick. And what
      is it that makes you and the other Jan fall down in a revolving door and
      get up enlightened and
      Wayne and myself have a love affair go south and come out of it
      enlightened. That happens to people every day. So what's the deal? The
      deal, I say, is that in that falling, we knew there was no getting up
      because we had already been everywhere else and that was it. A falling
      out of the mind and into the heart.


      --
      Happy Days,
      Judi
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      <...>
      One time a group of devotees reported to Ramana Maharshi that Sehsdhari
      Swami (who knew Ramana well but had now passed on) was being channeled by a
      man in town. The devotees discussed how the dead Swami was being channeled
      by this man, and how surprising it all was. The Sage of Arunachala smiled
      and said sarcastically, " We knew Sehsdhari well and moved together often on
      the hill. It is a pity that he does not come and speak to us but instead
      chooses to channel through this other man!" :-). The devotees roared with
      laughter.

      I am passing on the joke below that Linda posted on HarshaSatsangh. It made
      me smile and hope will do the same for everyone else. Hey folks, too much
      seriousness is not healthy. There are enough things in the world to make us
      weep for life times. So let us laugh a little..........................love
      to all..........Harsha


      Hello:

      I heard a funny story last night. Seems there was this devotee who had been
      with his guru for 18 years and found out some stuff about him. He went to
      his guru and said I've heard that you are a liar, cheat and hypocrite. The
      guru got angry, called him an ingrate and told him to go away for 6 months
      and meditate. After 6 month the disciple went back to the guru. The guru
      got excited and assumed the disciple had learned the errors of his way. So
      his asked him if God had spoken to him and the disciple told him yes and the
      guru wanted to know what he said and he told him that he told him the guru
      was a liar, a cheat and a hypocrite. The guru got quiet and after a long
      pause said to him with much excitement "He mentioned me by name !!!!!"

      Namaste,
      Linda
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      Hi Gang,

      Here's another short excerpt from A Still Forest Pool, edited by Jack
      Kornfield and Paul Breiter:

      The Simple Path

      Traditionally the Eightfold Path is taught with eight steps such as
      Right Understanding, Right Speech, Right Concentration, and so forth.
      But the true Eightfold Path is within us - two eyes, two ears, two
      nostrils, a tongue, and a body. These eight doors are our entire Path
      and the mind is the one that walks on the Path. Know these doors,
      examine them, and all the darmas will be revealed.
      The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations.
      Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are.
      That is all I do in my own practice.
      Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into
      anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you
      sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist
      nothing.
      Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop
      samadhi and many kinds of viassana. But it all comes back to this -
      just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

      Why not give it a try? Do you dare?


      Love, Mark
      _____________________________________________________________________________________



      Hiya Judi,

      Is this guy Wayne aka Ram Tzu (or is it the other way around) on an E
      mail/any List and more importantly is he open to dance around? <s>

      He makes some interesting comments.

      Mis dos conceptual centavos...

      <SNIP>

      > Here's a little story from Wayne I just found...
      >
      > Questioner to Wayne: In Zen there's a saying that "If you meet the
      > Buddha, you should kill him."
      >
      > Wayne: Absolutely. The Buddha you can meet is not the True Buddha.


      Meeting the true Buddhas or the false ones, can only take place in
      phenomenality.

      Meeting the Buddha and killing him/her or embracing him/her are all
      movements within phenomenality.

      So what is the import of the individual distinctions between the movements?

      In essence what I am saying is that it makes no difference whether one has
      met a true Buddha or a false one.

      If either has happened, either is appropriate.

      And it is in that sense, there are no false Buddhas.


      > That correlates to what Lao Tzu said in the first line of the Tao Te
      > Ching, "The Tao that can be named is not the the true Tao.


      The Tao that cannot be named is also not the true Tao.



      > Ramana
      > Marharshi describes this process as utilizing a thorn to remove another
      > thorn. So, you use these concepts as you would use a thorn, to remove
      > another thorn that's embedded, let's say in your foot. And then you
      > throw both thorns away.
      >
      > Now, the model I use is a scalpel, for a surgeon. You watch a brain
      > surgeon. You sit in the operating theatre, you look down and he's got
      > his scalpel. He makes an incision in the patient's head, he cuts
      > through the bone, gets down to the brain, he makes the 'slightest'
      > incision, just in the right spot, he cauterizes the wound, sews the
      > patient back up again, the patient is carted off, and there is an
      > incredibly dramatic reovery. This patient has the most impressive
      > result. And you sit up ther and you watch this hapen over and over
      > again. And it's amazing what this scalpel can do! So, one day when the
      > operation is over, you go dow, abnd take the scalpel. Now, you're
      > walking down the street and you meet somebody that has the same symptoms
      > that the surgical patients had and you say, "I can help you out. I have
      > the scalpel! Just lie down." (loud laughter) You've watched the surgeon
      > doess, and you make the incision, you make the incision there and yo
      > ucut right about ther, and you make bloody mess! Because it ain't the
      > scalpel!


      And neither was it the surgeon when he/she was scalpeling away.



      > And any of you who have been hanging around spiritual circles
      > for any time at all have seen this principal in action. You've watched
      > people imitate the guru saying, "So, who wants to know? Who's asking the
      > question?" (loud, long laughter) As if this Self-inquiry is some kind of
      > magic scalpel that can be applied willy-nilly to obtain these incredible
      > results, and that if you just sit for twenty-four or forty eight hours
      > in front of somebody else, looking deeply into their eyes saying, "Who
      > am I? Who's asking the question?" then enlightenment will happen!


      Indeed.
      And if it is the programming of a conceptual entity for awakening to happen
      through such 'stupidities", then that is exactly what will happen.


      > There
      > are actually workshops promising enlightenment over the week end if you
      > pay to do this!
      >
      > That is the principle carried to its ultimate ridiculousness. Something
      > will happen. Results of various kinds will happen, but what the hell
      > it has to do wtih Awakening or Ultimate Understanding is beyond me.


      What has anything to do with Awakening or Ultimate Understanding?
      If something is (negating something as not, suggests something else is),
      then Awakening cannot be acausal.


      > This
      > Self-inquiry, this question, "Who is inquiritying? Who wants to know?"
      > in the hands of a sage, can be incredibly effective, can bring about
      > wondrous transformations, as people sw all the time when Ramana
      > Marharshi utilized it.


      And yet it seems Ramana in his infinite stupidity did advise such a self-
      enquiry to be the path followed by the miserable seeker.<s>


      > Of course, the tempation is to think that it is
      > the Inquiry, that it is simply asking the question that does the deed!
      > But it is not so. This is not a technique that can be applied
      > indiscriminately.


      Curious, under which circumstances, is it not applicable?

      Not that any technique, even this particular one has anything to do with
      awakening, but it was interesting to see the suggestion that Ramana
      evidently advocated the technique for some and not for some others, as is
      implied.


      > Questioner: I kind of like the humor in the Zen formulation of that
      > because it doesn't really allow you to take the tool too seriously in
      > the search.


      The real humour in Zen is that it is just not the tool which is not take
      seriously, but the hand which holds the tool, is not taken seriously either.



      > Wayne: Sure, that is why they're yucking it up so much in the Zen
      > monasteries. (laughter) But the true Masters always had a lightness
      > about it.
      > The Master always knew that this is all a kind of joke, and that they're
      > just out there diong what they're doing as part of the system. None of
      > the Masters has ever really taken it that seriously. It's only the ones
      > who come after wo take the words of the Master and enshrine them.



      Sure.


      Cheers


      Sandeep

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      Sky:


      I mean, Life IS TROUBLE, so why not "love it or leave it." I say, "Fuck
      trouble", I mean REALLY fuck and get fucked by it, and thus live fully,
      folly and foully.

      Because I HAVE been enamoured of the pristine, pure and perfect. Fuck
      that!! And I HAVE fought the "good" fight to protect her virginity.
      What a jerk!

      The pure and the pristine is the biggest slut of all: she sleeps with
      EVERYONE. Know anyone with whom she doesn't sleep? I'm not saying
      that's BAD, mind you! It's "good." It's just ONE of the big reasons
      FOR all the trouble, I mean: THE trouble with trouble.

      Without her, there would just be trouble (as opposed to trouble with
      trouble, which iis really "bad" because it's fucking with trouble and
      not enjoying it. Whereas without purity, you can fuck with trouble, and
      at least enjoy it.)

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      Mark:

      I always thought trouble was to be avoided or confronted.
      But it's always taken "The Compassion Ritual" to come anywhere
      close to embracing trouble. In the ritual I managed to embrace myself
      despite the trouble. But you're a trouble slut, Mark. And I'm thinking,
      yeah, make love to the trouble itself!

      I think I'll join the Trouble Groupies, and see whathappens... You
      know, surrender to the trouble, love it as life itself.
      (Instead of always trying to solve or rue or gracefully avoid, make
      rules to harness, etc, etc.)
      I mean, Life IS TROUBLE, so why not "love it or leave it." I say, "Fuck
      trouble", I mean REALLY fuck and get fucked by it, and thus live fully,
      folly and foully.

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      Hi Sky,

      I am no expert on psychoanalysis, but as I understand it (which may be
      quite wrong), the idea is to explore the subconscious to bring light to
      areas of the psyche that are unacknowledged so that the patient may
      develop a strong, healthy ego allowing him or her to accomodate life and
      become an individual capable of negotiating life. Again, I am no expert
      on self inquiry, but as I see it from here, the idea is that those
      individuals who have managed to develop a healthy ego can upon further
      careful investigation realize that the ego/individuality is just a game
      being played by (or a lesson being learned by) (or a consequence of
      prior actions which may have started as a game being played by and then
      developed into a situation requiring a lesson to be learned by...) a
      much larger being, perhaps all that is...

      So, I believe (yes, I also believe that belief is a problem, but hey!)
      that as spirit, we come into this amusement park, get caught up in self
      defense and self preoccupation, lose sight of our true nature, and then
      getting discouraged, look for something we seem to know, find out that
      giving what we think we are wanting to receive is fun, and with some
      effort, manage to remember our true nature is unconditional love.
      Psychoanalysis helps remove layers of defense and old emotional content,
      and eventually allows us to ask the question of our existence as a self
      centered being. The problem is that it takes a long time, and involves
      getting pissed off at your therapist, to the point that you see how
      unreasonable this is and can take in the projection. Breathwork seems
      to me to work much faster, although the projections can be more intense,
      and more painful. My recent experiences tend to revolve around how
      deeply I love the other participants and what an exquisite aesthetic
      experience being with them is. I'm serious about this.

      I am both serious and frivilous about much of what I post here. I know I
      am exorcising projections, and sometimes I get carried away with the
      process. I mean no harm though. Much as the breathwork creates a safe
      place to process stuff, these lists (NDS and HarshaSatsang) provide a
      safe place to explore my psyche, and Harsha is a nonharmful being upon
      whom I occasionally heap my fears of harm. I think he understands it,
      but even if he doesn't, he has never hit back and I appreciate his
      kindness. I guess I've turned it into a teasing thing, which is what
      young children often do with people they really love. (hey Harsh, you
      hooligan, you!)

      enough for now,
      Mark

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