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Sunday, October 15

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    Hello, These include the highlights of only the second half the day of Sunday. I received no mail during the first half of Sunday, and it was not feasible to
    Message 1 of 1 , Oct 16, 2000
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      Hello,

      These include the highlights of only the second half the day of Sunday.
      I received no mail during the first half of Sunday, and it was not
      feasible to access the messages off the web because my connection was
      too slow. Well, enough excuses, here are some very fine and interesting
      post...

      Jerry
      ____________________________________________________________________________

      Wherever I go,
      whatever I read
      (or delete), you,
      I, everybody of us
      keeps an untempered
      and untemperable
      record of himself.

      And nobody can escape his own records,
      whatever words we may use, in whatever
      form we may dress our words and deeds.

      --Jivano

      ------------------------

      But the "happy message" is, those records can be erased faster than they
      are made :))

      --Jan

      ____________________________________________________________________

      GLORIA LEE

      (Sharing parts from a longer post. Gloria)

      Brother,

      If you can recall the Vietnam War.. During the merciless war,
      many scenes of altruism were reported: monks and nuns were
      sitting calmly before advancing tanks; women and children
      raising their bare hands against barbed wire and bayonets;
      students confronting military police; youths running through
      clouds of tear gas; mothers with babies in their arms caught in
      btw gun fire; hunger strikes held silently and stoically; monks
      and nuns burning themselves to death to try to be heard above
      the rattling sound of machine guns and rumbling tanks.

      Here is a true story. On one spring day when a team of 18
      Buddhist monks/nuns attempted to evacuate about 200 civilians
      trapped in a combat zone. A participant described what happened:

      "The idea was to form 2 lines of Buddhist monks/nuns in yellow
      robes and lead the civilians out of the war zone. They asked me
      to carry a big Buddhist flag so that combatants of both sides
      would not shoot at us. A nun was quite badly wounded by stray
      bullets. The trip lasted terribly long, as we had to stop many
      times, lying down on the streets and waiting for the shooting to
      lessen b4 continuing. We left the district early in the morning,
      but arrived in Pleiku only after dark. And what a bad time for
      arrival! It was a time for the rockets. Pleiku was shelled.
      Unfortunately, we were very close to a military camp, and one
      rocket fell upon us, wounding 7 of us. Children and women kept
      crying. We asked everyone to lie down and tried our best to help
      those who had been struck by the rocket.

      The most wonderful thing that happened that day is that we went
      through both Saigon and NFL soldiers but none of us was shot at.
      Had we not carried the Buddhist symbol I do not know what would
      have happened. It seemed that as soon as they saw and recognized
      us, they immediately showed their respect for life."

      On that day and on many other occasions, Vietnamese Buddhists
      parted the red sea of blood that was flooding their land. They
      displayed the equanimity, the courage and altruism of peace
      makers. Rather than feeling the rage, they saw the soldiers as
      thoughtful and kind, acknowledging them for their ability to
      respect life even in the midst of war.

      "The term "engaged Buddhism" refers to this kind of active
      involvement by Buddhists in society and its problems to
      actualize Buddhism's traditional idealism of wisdom and
      compassion in today's world. In times of war or intense
      hostility, they will place themselves btw the factions,
      literally or figuratively." ... Kenneth Kraft

      Thich Nhat Hanh writes: "We need such a person to inspire us
      with calm and confidence, to tell us what to do. Who is that
      person? The later Buddhist sutras tell us that you are that
      person. If you are yourself, if you are your best, then you are
      that person. Only with such a person - calm, lucid, aware, will
      our situation improve."

      "Because personal peace is connected with world peace on a
      fundamental level, we cannot meaningfully 'work for peace' as
      long as we feel upset, angry or confrontational. Non- violence
      is a day to day experience." ... Kenneth Kraft.

      with metta and both palms together, brother yick

      _________________________________________________________________

      JIVANO AND ANDREW

      ANDREW: I wonder, in your own experience, did whatever growth
      that occurred to you come about only directly from the guru, or
      did it also come through your interactions with your fellow
      devotees?

      JIVANO: A teacher will always create the whole situation. In an
      environment, where the setup is created by the teacher (often
      with help from the older disciples), it's not practical to
      differentiate between the persons. The effect is what counts.

      I can't understand, how one can live in the present, without
      have lost his wishes and hopes first. So these are certainly
      effects which need to be created: frustration and hopelessness.

      ANDREW: The message I take from the words of all the great gurus
      I have read is [...]

      JIVANO: The message we chose to take from the words we chose to
      read from the gurus who appeal most to our existing system of
      opinions are certainly not creating much frustration and
      hopelessness in us, or do you think so?

      And when you apply the logic, that the effect is it which
      counts, then the words itself don't have any 'truth' (read
      effect) in them. Instead it's imported to whom, and when and in
      what situation the words are spoken.

      Consequently only a living teacher can really help. And his help
      is going to be felt als frustration and hopelessness sooner or
      later.

      So why waste our time with spirituality, if we don't want to be
      frustrated and don't want to feel helpless and don't want to
      surrender and don't want to feel stupid and don't want to feel
      small and don't want to feel unimportant and don't want to feel
      anything at all -- except the feelings we chose out of our old
      wanting-/striving-/seeking-system?

      I cannot see any other 'message' wherever I look a little
      deeper.

      _____________________________________________________________________

      JAN BARENDRECHT

      Spirituality has become business (the enlightenment circus) and
      hence, also a pass time. So it is considered to be an
      alternative pleasure, obtainable like all the others, by
      learning a skill (like meditation) or reading tons of books and
      presto: the "light" is seen and one can make a business out of
      it, teaching others :)

      --------

      How long will it take those smart Westerners to understand that
      a bit of devotion has more value than 1,000,000,000 tons of
      books on Advaita, Tantra, Yoga and similar stuff? The books will
      at best build a nice grave or funeral pyre whereas with
      devotion, the phoenix could arise from it :)

      _________________________________________________________________

      MARCIA PAUL

      jivano wrote: "Anything else is just a cover up. And any feeling
      which has a reason is not a feeling."

      This caught my attention.

      I have noticed that (sometimes) as a feeling arises, I begin to
      'think about' it. I suspect this happens in those circumstances
      where the feeling is/has not been allowed or not accepted. It is
      not nice to feel......___________.

      I have said that to observe a feeling, I have to feel it. I
      think that I repress or sublimate certain feelings by shifting
      to 'thinking about' them. I suspect that this also applies to
      feeling good as I don't feel as if I deserve to feel good.

      My kids say I analyze too much. I think this ties into the
      drawing conclusion thread, for me at least.

      Thanks, Marcia

      ____________________________________________________________________

      LARRY

      Jivano wrote: "I can't understand, how one can live in the
      present, without have lost his wishes and hopes first. So these
      are certainly effects which need to be created: frustration and
      hopelessness."

      Yes, we're all very familiar with this school. Judi is a great
      devotee. The trouble is, it doesn't work. Some will say insight
      or grace will turn hopelessness into freedom from hope. Anyone
      who stays in this list is betting on insight, but we all have a
      fairly high level of understanding but still nothing. Something
      is missing. What makes it work?

      ____________________________________________________________

      POU

      Beloved Dan,

      I think in the terms of realness, you would not disagree that
      long lasting friendships that obviously you have with many
      people here on this email group are things that are earnt.

      They're earnt over laughter, over awe, over intrigue, over
      dismay, all the human experiences that can be mustered into the
      palm of a human being.

      And only you can qualify in that fire of love when you speak of
      friendship. For I believe Dan, that every person must eventually
      stand in that fire of love which is the fire of friendship.

      I also believe Dan, that real friendship can be found even here
      in cyber space. That too may sound strange to some but when the
      heart is absolutely involved in the equation - if you needed
      something Dan, do you understand me?

      It doesn't matter what status of so-called intellectual ability
      or status of humanness, part of being human is the quality to
      reach out and ask.

      I am sure you are consciously aware of this.

      I am in no uncertain terms pretending I've earnt the right to be
      called a friend. Yu may feel that way, so be it.

      Friendship means so much to different people and that is only
      something that friends can qualify. for every friendship as you
      are aware, is unique in its flowering.

      For some of us, friendship is the ability to simply show our
      tears to others. Just to show our tears without the need for
      justification or explanation.

      Others write crazy love letters to others that are dear to heart
      and being.

      While I may not be qualified to call you my friend Dan, I'm
      learning to appreciate what you are and who you are and maybe
      why you are.

      For Dan, it is clear that I am not writing to Dan, yet I am
      writing to Dan. But I'm writing to that aspect of Dan in my
      universe. The fact that I am the universe writing to the aspect
      of that universe.

      Pou

      ____________________________________________________________________

      MELODY AND JIVANO

      JIVANO: There is only one reason not to do something:

      BECAUSE I DON'T FEEL IT'S RIGHT TO DO SO.

      And there is only one reason to do something:

      BECAUSE I FEEL IT'S RIGHT TO DO SO.

      Anything else is just a cover up.

      MELODY: To say this another way.....

      Anything else is an act of fear.

      And yet....acting because something feels right could also be a
      response to fear.

      JIVANO: And any feeling which has a reason is not a feeling.

      MELODY: It may be that we are using the word 'feeling' in a very
      different way.

      If so, I would like to hear what you mean by that word.

      Recognizing we may be dealing with an issue of semantics, I
      would suggest that ALL FEELINGS have a reason.

      By 'feelings' I'm referring to an emotional response that can be
      *felt* in the body. Whenever I experience a feeling in my body,
      only rarely have I not been able to trace back to the 'reason'
      for it. Occassionally, though, I have had feelings when the
      reason was not known......such as a sense of dread, or sorrow,
      or 'butterflies'. Even then though I'm rather sure there's
      always a reason.....though it is not always apparent.

      JIVANO: So all my 'why's boil down to "I don't feel it's right
      to do ...".

      MELODY: When you say you don't feel it's right to do, are you
      speaking for yourself,

      or do you get the feeling it's not right for anybody else to do
      either?

      JIVANO: If you, Melody, say "But I feel right to do so." I don't
      have any problem. But are you?

      MELODY: I've kind of lost the context of this question. Looking
      back it seems you may be asking me here if I'm hiding in
      'spirituality' by participating here on this list?

      If that's what you're asking, the answer is:

      Somedays yes. Somedays no. Somedays I'm cowardly or slovenly.
      Sometimes I'm fearless.

      Maybe you're asking me why am I here?

      My interest is in discovering more and more, day by day, what
      hides in my unconsciousness.

      My interest in not in changing my behaviour, but becoming
      completely conscious of it..

      I have no ambition to destroy, kill, deny, master, or control my
      'ego'.

      I only want to see it for what it is, and see clearly what it is
      up to.

      And an e-mail group (the NDS, in particular) is a marvelous
      place to make those discoveries.

      JIVANO: Or are you hiding behind your "why not?" ?

      MELODY: It's interesting that what simply arose naturally from
      me,

      interesting that what was my way of suggesting that whatever
      happens is opportunity for discoveries in consciousness

      may have been heard by you as some sort of hiding, or defence.

      It reminds me of the first time on these lists that I read
      someone's email, and realized I didn't have a clue how to take
      it. I saw that it could be read any number of ways....and I
      didn't have any sense whatsoever how to read it. I appreciated
      that moment so much - it was such a taste of freedom for me,
      because I realized I was hearing it without filters,
      expectations, or memories. I was just reading the words, and
      found that in order for the dialogue to continue, I would have
      to ask a lot of questions....dig deeper.....to really hear what
      that person was saying.

      I really loved that moment of 'not knowing'.

      _________________________________________________________________

      MATTHEW FILES

      Identification is not based on thoughts or any thinking process
      but is certainly reinforced by thoughts. There are many levels
      of identification subtler than thoughts. Thoughts may cease
      (though i'm not sure why one would want them to) and
      identification will still continue. Identification is rooted in
      the body not in thoughts.

      _______________________________________________________________

      CHRISTINA

      Hello to all. I have been lurking (off and on) for a coupla
      months now. And may I ask, (don't get offended!), why do you all
      read/ participate in this group? And please, I am not asking in
      an accusatory voice- I'm just curious, that's all. I find it
      very ironic that a group of people who are seekers/ knowers of
      "truth" (or so they say), would have an e-mail group. Sure, you
      could use the defense that you are here to share your knowledge
      with others- but shouldn't you tell them to look within, and not
      without? Or, at the very least, at everything, but not at
      specifics (such as this group?) Where is talking going to get
      anyone? No idea can enter your mind that wasn't already there to
      begin with, so why try? But please understand, I am only a
      high-schooler with nothing better to do than sit around all day
      and think, smile, and smile some more...so I must be a little
      off, hey?

      ______________________________________________________________________

      PAUL AND POOLE

      matthew files wrote: "i hope we arent going round in circles
      here:), but this takes me back to my other post about drawing
      conclusions. Drawing conclusions is simply what mind does. So
      for me it is a matter of mpartially observing the mind as it
      draws conclusions. Drawing conclusions is a constant on going
      process. Are we connecting here?"

      MARCIA PAUL: I may be beating on a dead horse here. :-)

      But....I have found very recently something I find astounding.
      And I don't think it is identification or maybe it is. Perhaps
      the drawing of conclusions IS identification.

      GENE POOLE: You have found a small part that is 'true'.

      "Identification" in this case, is WITH the mechanism and the
      pictures it draws, as it clicks from one 'conclusion' to the
      next.

      Your saving grace, Marcia, is that you, in your 'overly
      analytical' way, convert what are 'conclusions' into 'tentative
      conclusions'. But here is the crucial point; you still _seem_ to
      be attached to the product of thinking. Like this: "Well, those
      are interesting tentative conclusions, but we have still not
      arrived at any real conclusion". It is well to know, that there
      are no actual conclusions.

      Every tentative conclusion is simply a new dot, of an
      ever-growing picture, which will not be complete until every dot
      has been plotted, and then connected by the 'lines'. I am saying
      that to me, it 'seems' that you favor the completion of the
      picture, and that you hunt for the completeness of the picture.

      Matthew is correct in what he says about the nature of mind. It
      will continue to draw pictures. But it is good to notice that
      this activity is actually unceasing; mind has no attachment to
      an outcome, no matter what anyone may assume of the nature of
      mind. Mind simply plots dots and connects them without ceasing.
      Mind cannot recognize truth; and truth is merely the consequence
      of imposition of one pattern over another and noting a 'match'.

      One must already have the target pattern in store 'somewhere',
      to be able to do the pattern-matching procedure, to thus
      recognize 'truth'.

      However, the actual issue is this; it is to recognize the
      mechanical nature of mind, that mind has no attachments, that it
      has no access to the "correct" pattern by which to ascertain
      'truth'. Mind simply does what it does, unceasingly.

      For a person to notice that mind is active, and to thus conclude
      that there is a valid question, which mind 'must be searching to
      answer', is an error of the first magnitude. Activity of mind is
      evidence only of activity of mind, and of nothing more.
      Understanding this allows mind to be seen as simply an activity,
      in the field of awareness.

      Now that we have taken care of that...

      We can see that to observe the activity of mind, is to recognize
      the mechanical quality of mind. But this means that mind will
      continue to run, to acquire data, collate, categorize, tally,
      etc, even if the whole of reality is clearly visible, right in
      front of us. Mind will continue to do its 'thing', even if we
      are taking a long, hot bath in the the very essence of 'truth',
      and drinking glasses of 'truth' and making toasts to 'truth'.
      Mind will continue, even if we are discussing 'truth' with
      'truth' itself, in person. Mind will simply continue and
      continue and continue, chattering like an obsolete teletype
      machine in the background of the newscast.

      MARCIA: It may be what Gene is referencing when he talks to
      'filling in the blanks or cells' (I know I just massacred that.)
      An impression is registered in the thinking center which
      triggers an association (the conclusion). The associations are
      totally subjective (identification) as they are mechanical.

      GENE: Yes, similar. However, it matters not that the conclusions
      are 'subjective'. There are no 'objective' conclusions, ever.
      Mind is incapable of 'objective' conclusion. Get this. It is
      only our _attachment_ to product of mind-activity, which causes
      us to value it over the ever-present, self-revealing, big,
      whopping, REALITY which is what we are.

      I know that I am saying this clearly; yet, I know that some will
      receive this, and then drop it, to begin fielding the next pass.

      This is the very activity of mind in action. If nothing else,
      please keep treating each conclusion as tentative.

      Just as I assume that you are not 'getting it' and so keep
      saying it, you assume that I am not saying it and so keep asking
      it. Yet in this small block of text, is the entire schema. I
      would have the reader re-read these four paragraphs until the
      paradox is broken. The point is to see what mind is operating
      within, which is the field of awareness, raw. Mind only seems to
      refine this raw field; in reality it (this field) cannot be
      changed in any way. This field is empty, unless filled by
      activity of mind.

      MARCIA: I notice a thought or I notice I am thinking a thought
      and rather than go on to the next associative thought I step
      back and take a second look at the thinker of the thought which
      IS the thought itself. Thinking the thoughts is identification.
      There is no thought without identification so it can't be a
      matter of whether or not I am identified with what the mind is
      doing.

      GENE: Above, you have forgotten that 'identification' is a
      feeling process.

      MARCIA: I may be in way over my head here. :-) Pun intended.

      GENE: It may seem that way, but that is the way that it is.
      "Knowing" as you assume it to be, is probably a personal myth,
      and nothing more. I refer you to what Sandeep calls
      'apperception'; in that, there are no conclusions, yet there is
      'knowing' of the deepest kind. And in that, mind-activity is
      like unto the buzzing of a far-away mosquito.

      MARCIA: Awareness doesn't identify. There is nothing in
      awareness to be identified with what the mind is doing. (Help me
      Dan <s>) Identification is the mind doing.

      GENE: Identification is the assumption of 'what we are'. It is
      the loss of what is nothing, to gain nothing.
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