Nondual Digest for Friday, July 16
- Hello. The Nondual Digest is a sampling of the 'best' posts
appearing on the Nonduality Salon mailing list each day. It
is sent out once a day and there is no discussion on this
list. It was created as an alternative to negotiating the
often heavy flow of email traffic on Nonduality Salon.
A copy of this is being sent to Alan's ContemplativeEclectic
list. Many of you know Alan as one of the most energetic
contributors to the nondual/spiritual scene on the Internet.
The truck driving family man from Portland, Oregon, may be
joined at his active list at
If you'd like to subscribe to Nondual Digest please click
It seems to me that if you were more honoring
of the spaces you traveled thru in the past,
it would free you to be more honoring of the
spaces others share from today....however that
unfolds to be.
Most people do think they are their minds, or their bodies.
As for me, I try to be careful about what I say I am where
my ears are close enough to hear it. And this is reminder
to be more careful yet.
In India there are some very poisonous snakes and numbers of
people die from their bites every year. So when a man was
out walking at night and saw a snake he became very
frightened and ran to a tree, climbed it and stayed there
until morning. When the sun came up he peeked out between
the branches and looked around. Where he had seen a snake
there was only a rope! He laughed and laughed, jumped down
and went on his way, very happy about his mistake.
But ... who is reading this story?
What would you want a person to know,
that they have an imaginary center or
that they are perfect and pure wholeness
and always have been?
...sooner or later you'll have to find a way to reconcile
thought and the Peace that we Are. The Peace can't be
something that is present only when thoughts aren't, or
you'll have made just another object/thought/state out of
that Peace. Maybe you'll see that thoughts never were, or
that they too are nothing other than Peace.
The personal guru, live or dead, can keep the trip from
being intellectual, and the non-attachment to the intellect
is necessary on the trip. But the human guru can be an
attachment as well. I know several people who feel great in
the presence of their guru, and feel depressed and
diminished when away.
Submission and surrender are important steps, and like you
say, the object of this surrender can be inner or outer. I
think the important step is that the surrender be away from
what the aspirant think of as her/his self.
...whenever you do or see anything, there is just awareness
and peace. This happens to everyone more than we realize
(all the time actually), and it is as peaceful as deep
sleep. When you really look at a tree, there's no Tim and
no tree. Only when a later thought comes is it thought that
"I was looking at a tree."
But even that later thought is only THAT and it not present
when it's happening. Only when a still later thought comes
think that the previous thing was a thought and an
interruption of the
peace. But even this present thought is the same thing, and
over and over. This is one of the ways to see thoughts as
peace. This is
sahaja samadhi. The great non-dualist teachers say that our
natural state is always sahaja samadhi.
it is likely very wise of you to take some time to enjoy
and become more familiar with this peace. For you to stop
thought and ruminating and seeking and abide in the moment
cool. It is also wise to know one's own limitations. Those,
are in the moment and are just that..for now, nothing
unless you are made of velcro and they stick like glue. Ha!
need or requirement to stress yourself out.. no one is
asking you to
be any different than what you are..until you are ready and
this growth of yourself. Those who remind us of ourselves
indeed the most difficult sometimes to accept. Sometimes I
like I have infinite patience to listen carefully to almost
anything..somedays I just cannot be bothered to think at
it depends if I feel someone else is already handling
far better than I could...everything is not your assignment
life. This is partly why comparing ourselves to another is
useless, you may focus on this one tiny area and this huge
rest of the story is forgotten in doing that. There is a
repertoire of new possibilities now available to you. Enjoy
this peace..it is your gift to yourself, feels like about
Still, I like to imagine many small and private victory
celebrations were held throughout the cosmos in your honor.
I wasn't exactly raised by wolves, but I WAS raised by
comedians. We laughed at everything and anything and still
do. Sometimes the worse it gets, the more hopeless it seems,
the funnier the absurdity is to me... in other words..it can
be totally tasteless humor. Once I was in this car wreck and
the car skids in slow motion or so it feels, like you have a
lot of time in those few seconds, so I see this telephone
poll is right in the trajectory and think this could be
it..the end. I swear my very next thought was that I should
not have left dinner simmering on the stove, who knows how
long before anyone would get back to the house now. Then I
laughed at myself for having such a silly "last thought" ..I
mean if ever it was going to be irrelevant for me to worry
about dinner!! See, the mind really is ridiculous. You can't
intend humor like this..its really beyond my control. It was
even funnier to me once I saw I was going to live after
all. Later in the emergency room.. like the doctor tells me
its 4 broken ribs and a ruptured, collapsed lung..and I'm
good news..the fact that I am in excrutiating pain and can't
breathe doesn't mean death is still likely after all.
So when he explains he's going to insert this tube where a
scar won't show in a swimsuit, I hoarsely whisper, "Oh no,
goes my career as a topless dancer." Well, for a few seconds
anyway, they wondered if I might be serious, before they
up.. maybe you had to be there.
So nothing much is like "too serious" to strike me funny,
even my own death, and that was a dozen years before I
had this nondual perspective, which actually just makes
even funnier and more absurd to me. So you just never know
what you may be asking for.. can I really just put a :) and
anything to you??
Not that I would ever make fun of you, Dan, especially since
there's nobody home in there in the first place. I hope the
angels in white coats always serve your oatmeal nice and
hot..nothing worse than cold oatmeal, is there? Center or no
It seems to me that we need to answer your question of what
would separate soul from the world before attempting to
answer what separates, if anything, one soul from another.
Can we agree on that?
It is hard to accept that we have all that it takes, isn't
it? That we don't have to seek further knowledge, that
really contained at this instant, that there is no need
ability) to add or substract from this wholeness. It is much
admit that we are not there yet, and that there is some work
that's need to be done before we are ready. As I found for
myself you are never more ready than now, and if not now
then never. All the excuses that the mind fabricates are
diminishing the energy that is requires to be aware of what
is, not as another dimension, another level of being. No
speculations about angels and dreams of something that is
not here. Simply and truely staying with what is, even if it
implies losing yourself (or rather loosing control). Because
this is your life! How longer can you live with the false?
Once you even get only a distant smell of your true nature,
how can you ignore the call to Be it? And when you can't
figure it out - figure it in!
Tim G. says:
I don't have anyone I'd consider a teacher or guru, but
there are many that have offered positive pointers in the
"right direction." Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, J.
Krishnamurti, Nisargadatta, Gangaji, Buddha and many others
(including some on the mailing lists) have been "pointing
fingers" that I consider very helpful. However, I have felt
no need for a Guru or (especially) a teacher. Nonduality
cannot be taught, it must be experienced and lived.
I think it's possible to live in the moment out of a sense
of Being. Oh, there will be cognation going on, but the
constant inner dialog most of us have can cease. It's
possible to look at a tree without thinking "this is a tree"
or "This is a beautiful tree" or compare it to a
previously-seen tree or something like that. The minute
such a thought enters, it destroys the real experience of
the tree, clouds it with thought and memory. To experience
things as they are, not as they're remembered... this is
what I mean by the ceasing of thought. And when we lie down
to rest or to sleep, not a single thought will arise.
Another thing I noticed when I was in the thought-free
in-the-moment state (which I haven't experienced very often)
is that a tremendous energy of effortless DOING arose.
Before, I have always been daunted by the conflict of the
way things are now vs. the way I want them to be, so I
haven't acted. The duality of "now and undone" vs. "later
and completed" has
greatly troubled me my entire life. Living in the moment
without thought destroys that duality and enables me to
I cleaned my entire apartment this morning in the space of a
couple hours, effortlessly, not troubled by "Goddamn, this
is taking a long time" or "maybe I'll do this later, it's
too much trouble."
Procrastination is the rebellion of the mind against the
duality of the present vs. the future. If there is only the
present, this duality vanishes.
Gene Poole says:
The imaginary center is very useful to writers of fictional
As we read such stories, we may (and perhaps usually do)
identify with the 'character' in the story; we then tend to
see ourselves in that 'objective' way, as we read the story.
The same thing happens with plays and movies. The 'celebrity
syndrome' of western culture is the longing for an objective
center, one which is distinct and identifiable.
The exposure of readers of fiction to the imaginary
objective center is a powerful 'meme'... if we understand
how propoganda and commercial advertisements work on us, via
the process of identification, we can see how we also
identify here in this forum. We are concerned for the
clarity of each-other; we share our own
perspectives, hoping to lend our own experience and wisdom
to those others who appear to be here.
The 'meme' of the objective center is also the same as the
'soul' or 'atman', IMO. This subtle concept, in whatever
to always innoculate the newborn with 'duality', which they
must strive to overcome, finally by not striving.
The letting go of identity is perhaps the last 'act' of the
fiction of objective reality; freedom may be found in what
subjective', as long as one does not trouble to find
'objective validation' for one's 'subjective' reality.
"Please, someone... stop me, before I identify again!"
And here is a portion of the on-going conversation between
Ivan and Dan to which we are all being treated:
Ivan: I am not questioning the eventual response [to abuse]
-- I am stating that the assumption of an ongoing center is
harmfull, point. I am giving an exemple.
Dan: To me, you made this point a long time ago. No further
example is needed. Either you feel I haven't seen your
point or you
are intent on underlining it. I do get it, but I thought we
had agreed on that a long time ago. I'm trying to take it
deeper, beyond making a
conceptual point. So I'm pointing: look, the issue is you
and me, our awareness. It's not an issue of conceptual
understanding. How do we react to an experience that
involves violence or pain? Are we able to react from
awareness, as the present?
Ivan: Sorry -- not the issue, Dan. I think that conjectures
on ficticious situations is meaningless, or close to it.
Correct action can be evalueted only by oneself...I am sure
Dan: The thing I'm wanting to look at is the quality of the
action. The doing that is not-doing. You brought up the
situation in the first place, so it seems ironic that you
are now commenting that fictitious situations aren't
Ivan: No...no...no, this matter is only for those who are
interested in this. You don't go around pushing this thing
people's alimentary tube...
Dan: Yes, which is you and me right now, here. As far as
you and me, I definitely "get" what you have been saying
"center" as belief in a permanent inner observer. I feel I
have many times communicated agreement about it. I disussed
centers in a different way than usual (I was referring to a
temporary center constructed for use as a reference point)
and lost you on that. Then we got off on a tangent.
The tangent seems to involve going back and forth until
we're no longer
coming from the open awareness of "what is." At what point
is a tangent simply a distraction? At what point is it a
mere conceptual pursuit? I felt we reached that point and
wanted to "return" to "what is."
Ivan: Nobady discards their center. One can understand, see,
that there is not an inner entity...
Dan: Yes, I have communicated awareness of this.
Ivan: Of course it's enough! And what is separation? Is it
not Me and You? And what is Me? -- You tell me...
(uau.!!....now I'm really angry!! -- beware)
Dan: You are You. What I am supposed to tell you about
You? I am I. This is This. Your angry statement is your
angry statement. This is all self-evident. If what you have
been saying about inner observers and centers is true, then
what is there to separate us?
Dan: Seeing through the illusion is exactly what we have
been spending all of this time discussing.
Ivan: Well, excencialy, yes. Sometimes we missed the issue
each other was adressing...
Dan: Yes. Nonetheless, there has been communication. You
take this seriously. I see that. Seriousness can help
"remain" with what is. As can humor, at times.
Dan: I don't see how these kinds of definitions assist
nondual awareness. To express where I am coming from: I am
concerned with seeing through the center, not even bringing
anything to an end. How can something that is an illusion,
that was never real in the first place, be brought to an
Ivan: What comes to an end is the feeling, thinking that I
am an entity inside this body.
Dan: All feelings come to an end. All thoughts come to an
end. I'm not concerned with bringing anything to an end.
Things end when they will. My action is non-action.
Dan: The point at which we have arrived is a point of
letting go of unreality, and a point of not-doing.
that is causeless, is occurring here now. From this point of
nondoing, there is nothing to state, no correct or incorrect
way to understand things.
Ivan: Absolutly on accord. The whole issue arised because I
am extremely interested in understanding how did you manage
to takle the
wholle thing :^) without going into the understanding of
that inner entity. The way you put things, it seems that you
where born without it, never had it, and has not it. Lucky
Dan: I tackled the whole thing as the whole thing. Ivan,
it strikes me as pretty funny that you would say I didn't go
into understanding this inner entity, when it seems like the
main topic of several conversations for days. You say there
is no inner entity and then you're surprised I was born
without it. You seem to suggest it's important for "me" to
have more understanding of this thing that isn't real. Who
is this "me" who should have this understanding? Who is the
"me" who is lucky to have been born without an unreal inner