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NDS highlights for Saturday, October 7

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  • Melody
    JAN: There is one Sadhana that was taught at the foundation of mankind, sometimes referred to as ancient path . It is for those, who are disappointed in what
    Message 1 of 1 , Oct 8, 2000
      JAN:

      There is one Sadhana that was taught at the foundation of mankind,
      sometimes referred to as "ancient path". It is for those, who are
      disappointed in what life has to offer, who are not satisfied with it,
      having been through all the pleasures and pain "on offer", but not
      having found any lasting satisfaction.

      To them, it was taught there is a "third" option apart from the
      endless repetition of 1. enjoying and 2. suffering: the realization
      that both are two sides of the same coin and there is no "escape" from
      that, like by going after one side while avoiding the other. Instead,
      both sides have to be abandoned, that is, have to be given up. Without
      partaking in the "current of like and dislike", remaining passive to
      them, was called something like "the sour apple" - a kind of nowhere
      land of nothingness, where the real nature isn't know and the familiar
      tracks of pleasure and pain have been abandoned.

      Under these conditions (or better stated, the progressing absence of
      former conditions), sooner or later the real nature will be recognized
      and one will be utterly baffled how this simple, self-evident beauty
      could have been overlooked. And contrary to other paths, there won't
      be the least doubt about "what next" as the "sour apple" all of a
      sudden has become one of of ultimate sweetness, to be "consumed" with
      joy - a joy that "isn't from this earth"...

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      SANDEEP & ANDREW:

      Sandeep:

      Ramana maintained that as an entity, you had no other volition except
      the volition to turn inwards.
      This volition, you had, whether to pursue a Million dollars or pursue
      Truth (or whatever).


      I question even this iota of volition.

      What turns a perfectly happy, adjusted, making pots of money, having
      spouse/children respected member of society etc etc turn into a
      miserable seeker?

      (And if one was misfit, a failure in the material world and is now
      seeking spirituality, by convincing oneself that all that materialism
      was
      all Maya anyway, well that's just an escape, not seeking.)

      To me, this offer of that iota of volition was just Ramana's
      compassion,
      seeing the misery of the seeker wanting to do, something, anything.

      The seeker could not just BE, letting whatever is happening, to
      happen
      and needs a "consolation" that it can at least do something.


      Andrew:

      Similarly the concept that there is no volition, that there is nothing
      the seeker can
      do, logically unassailable as it may be, can be seen as a consolation
      offered out of
      compassion. No need to struggle for a better future or to worry about
      how one may have
      messed up in the past, its all happening as it must happen so relax
      and enjoy the
      movie. There is great consolation in this way of thinking...but...it's
      just another
      way of thinking presented by another compassionate individual. I feel
      driven
      (choicelessly no doubt :) to throw it away too like every prior
      concept and admit not
      knowing.


      Sandeep:

      I offer you another concept<s>

      Real freedom is the freedom from the burden of free will.

      How's that, as they say in the game of cricket.


      Andrew:

      How could something that doesn't exist ever have been a burden?


      Sandeep:

      In the apperception of non-volitionality, the realization is that
      there is
      none to affirm or negate.
      Or, if either affirmation or negation arise, both are not the
      "me-entity's"
      doing.

      Now you may well ask who is to realize this?

      It is the ego (which is only the sense of identification with a
      particular
      biological computer and this may or may not continue, after
      "awakening")
      which realizes that there is no sense of "me-entity" any more.


      Where is the possibility of a burden now?
      Where is the "me-entity" left to experience the sense of burden?

      Now if Andrew if all this are no issues for you, fine, carry on your
      merry
      ways<s>


      Andrew:
      Curses to this accursed recursiveness.

      Real freedom is open ignorance, not-knowing.


      Sandeep:

      Real freedom is knowing that all knowing and not-knowing , all
      ignorance/non-ignorance, all are relevant only in a phenomenal
      context.

      Both knowing and ignorance have no relevance without the phenomenal
      context.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      DAN:

      Awareness (which is not-a-thing)
      defines itself, so can make itself
      appear to itself to have gradations or
      different densities.

      Because Awareness resists itself to formulate
      densities (including this world
      we call earth, and these bodies),
      these differences are always "apparent only"
      and dependent on the point of view of
      perception.


      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      MARCIA:

      I went through the 'phase' of reading Bradshaw and Healing the
      Shame that Binds You and looking at body shame and the sense
      of how flawed I was. I got a shocker when I had this instantaneous
      glimpse of 'myself' in action. It was when I had three kids, very
      stressful job, husband was going through mid-life crisis, and my
      mother became very ill and needed me emotionally and physically
      for hours everyday. On top of that my dad was entering middle
      stages Alzheimer's and I had him too. I felt like I was pushing a
      ton of boulders uphill but I refused to open and feel pain and
      whatever. I was too proud. Then one moment I saw that I was
      making this all about 'me'. I, I, I, I, I, was doing all this. I, I,
      I, I

      was shouldering all this. I had more suffering than all the rest of
      the people on the planet. I was making my mother's death about
      me. I was making my husband's mid-life crisis about me. It feels the
      same to me as making the death of six million Jews about the
      German race. I let go of it for a second. Then I could really 'be'
      with my mother. She was okay. We did it together. With me
      by her side, she was okay.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      MARCIA responds to this thought:

      > "Everyone in the world is awake but you."

      Is this the same as...."When you wake up, the whole
      world wakes us?"

      I don't know how this could be true, but it seems true.

      At lunch yesterday with three friends, two males and
      a female, I kept trying to connect with my male friend.
      His response was to solve my problem.

      example......

      Me: "I really like kittens. They are so sensitive in
      a way really different than dogs. Blah, blah, blah....."

      Him: "Blah, blah, blah...Maybe you should get a part
      time job in an animal shelter....blah, blah, blah."

      Me: "Blah, blah, blah..."

      Him: "Blah, blah, blah...Maybe you should...."

      Me: "Stop trying to solve my problem. The only problem
      I have is you trying to solve my problem. I am trying to
      connect with you." (At this point he asks me to take the
      other end of the chopstick and he says that now we are
      connected.)

      Him: "You mean I am the problem?" <s> At this point the
      other female says that maybe it is him who wants a job
      in an animal shelter. After much laughter, he says that
      he finally understood something about male/female
      communication. He is 54 years old.


      GREG responds:

      You're right, that is really a guy-thing, "Let me give you some
      advice, fix
      you up. You shouuld do blah-blah."
      Have you read any books by (I think) Deborah Tannen about the
      different
      ways that men and women tend to use language? Even John Gray talks
      about
      that in his Mars & Venus books.

      I really like John Gray's books about dating and Mars and Venus. They
      work
      well. In fact, they work so well that when I (a man, Mars) was going
      with
      a transsexual (theortecally a Venus), she had a more masculine
      personality
      than I. So I *reversed* the advice in John Gray's book and took the
      feminine side for myself, and treated her as the masculine side. Made
      things go a lot smoother!!

      Connection through holding... Er, was that an already-used chopstick?

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      JUDI talks about meeting Da:

      I met him in once, in 1979, on what is refered to as "The
      Day of The Heart", which is still the communities big celebration day
      every year.
      He never said a word. I'll never forget it. There were about couple
      hundred
      or more there sitting in this auditorium/church there at the ashram in
      Clear Lake
      and he came in and took his seat up front. And he started scanning the
      room
      and he scanned past me and then he quick turned his head back doing a
      double take
      on me and looked at me and his eyes stayed with mine and his head fell
      over
      to one side and tears started streaming down his cheeks, he was
      totally
      broken. At the time I was just sitting there grinning like a chesire
      cat, just so completely happy to be there with him. And we connected
      at
      heart. He's a lover to be sure. And I love him yet to this day. I
      know
      who he is and I know what he's about.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      POU and GENE:

      Pou:

      .....if we look
      closely I believe, we'll actually see that it is shame
      itself that is one of the initiating factors that we begin
      the search for the self.



      Gene:
      Shame, if you think of it, acts as an inhibitor. It can put the
      brakes on all movement, even stopping life-processes. Many many
      people have died from shame.

      Shame stops the very processes which would stop shame; perhaps we
      could say, that each person is a 'shame-flower', whose maturity is
      reached only when those petals finally fully open, then drop off, in
      the autumn of life.

      Pou, it is natural to have shame, and wounding does occur. Not only
      is nobody immune, but inevitably, it occurs for everyone as a major
      life theme. I am gratified that finally, there is public talk of this.

      Shame occurs for one simple reason (so I say!); it is realization. To
      resist realization, is to invite shame to fill completely, the entire
      range of experience of awareness. I say this shamelessly.


      Pou:
      Or of the metaphor the search
      itself begins with the axe blow from the father. I do not
      know if it is important to you or not Gene because I
      undertand what you have written in previous posts, but you
      yourself live in this so-called awake state. And by awake
      state I mean where a dramatic shift of attention has
      removed itself from the fixated identification from the
      content to the context. Now for many, this now sets itself
      up as the new spiritual prison.


      Gene:
      I am not afraid to look up, to see my father. I see in this, the way
      out of any prison. I have seen his face, and it has made me 'mad',
      insane. Behind the axe, there is love. I can say this, but very few
      can know what I am meaning, when I say it.

      Many years ago, I heard the voice of my father, in the train-horns of
      a far-away, passing diesel locomotive. At that time, everything
      disappeared, because I actually heard it, and that was all that I
      heard, nothing more. My hair was standing on end. I thought I was
      going crazy. Now I hear this voice much of the time, it is a singing,
      a chorus, something far beyond Wagner, a theme indescribable by me in
      this moment. But it is here. I have noticed that if someone hears it,
      it can be a shattering experience. Deep grief and tears often occur,
      I have observed.


      Pou:
      The way that I see it at
      the present time, it is like walking into an empty room
      that contains no objects and of course one is aware of
      emptiness, of space, of availability, of potential as well
      as a whole assortment of other possibilities when there is
      the possibility in the consideration of space. But if one
      is to bring objects such as furniture, etc. into this
      space then of course we're aware that in a sense it
      doesn't change the space itself. But what it does open up
      for the individual is new possibilites where one can
      direct attention within space and the ability to direct
      attention consciously is what I feel personally is the
      beginning steps in learning how to walk in the enlightened
      state.


      Gene:
      Yes. And I abide in this, with myself and others. I know that time
      can lead to maturity. I advise patience, with oneself and others in
      this matter. It does no-one any good to demand perfect furnishings
      from the onset. Such idiotic insistence on immediate perfection is
      part of a hidden 'racket' which allows the supremacy of tyrants. If
      this could be seen in the context of human spiritual strivings, there
      would be an immediate 'blowing-off' of most 'teachers'. To make
      someone feel wrong, is to also make them desire to feel right; this
      is the entire hidden agenda behind most advertising. heaven help us
      if this ever comes to light; people will be very angry, and in that
      anger, will vow never to become suckers for that manipulation again.


      Pou:
      I also personally feel it is unconscious defended
      by incredible arrogance, hurt, misunderstanding and deep
      seated confusion to not be aware that there could be the
      possibility where attention could become fixated ie, one
      believing that they have fully totally with full awareness
      and full consciousness believe they have grasped advaita
      in its totality.

      Gene:
      I have never heard anyone make that claim, but I have read and heard
      many who act as though it is so, for them, in relation to others.
      This is the racket that I describe above. This racket, guarantees
      that such 'teachers' will do anything to prevent eyes from actually
      opening. If eyes open, heads may roll. I think you know what I am
      talking about.

      <snip>

      Gene:
      Here is how I see it: Like the sand-paintings of Vajrayana, or like a
      blackboard in a classroom.

      Not, like the eternal sculpture of Rodin. It is for me, by design,
      disposable. This whole thing can vanish in an unexpected instant.
      What is offered is learning about the suffering of attachment, not
      the building of perfection, and the immersion of that perfection in a
      preserving-vat of formalin. Behind and also beyond this moment of
      sharing, is my own relationship with myself.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      FRANZ:

      the "one" experiencing silence - this is the "one".................

      as i saw and see
      it ,
      am i ,
      without wanting it,( at least as i am aware of ),
      terrified of really getting lost in God or consciousness...
      even though, it seems to be my greatest longing -
      to merge-

      once i saw also, that this mere fact of this "me" longing for God,
      is already or, maybe better has become , The obstacle, for
      this "merging", or disappearing of this "i", or this "undermining of
      who i think i am",( Judi) watching
      the writing of these words...

      so i try to keep my heart on fire -
      sometimes feeling guilty not to "put enough and all fuel in it, to
      burn "me" all ...( Poonjaji)

      still feeling incredible thankful and lucky to be able to write like
      this, and to know the - Seat of Silence

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      LARRY & GREG:

      Larry:
      I agree with your point about why stop with "no doer" but I think it
      is
      quite effective wherever it meets resistance. Sobottka equates the
      practice of "no doer" inquiry to surrender in Ramana's two "only way"
      paths , self inquiry or surrender to
      the deity.

      Greg:
      The doership inquiry is a marvelous tool! In fact, sometimes it can
      result
      in the dissolution of the entire notion of entitification (both "here"
      and
      "there.") It is even a more effective tool for people who have strong
      issues or identification with control, resentment, guilt, etc.

      I don't recall Sobottka's discussion on nondoership and Ramana on that
      particular topic, but I do agree with him halfway on it. That is,
      Ramana's
      two "only way" paths encompass non-doership, but not vice versa.

      That is, if one pursues deep inquiry, then one will discover that one
      is
      not the doer. One will also discover many other things that one is
      not.
      Such as, one will discover that one is not the receiver, or the locus
      of
      sensation, or a point through which consciousness flows, or separate
      from
      any object whatsoever. But *merely* pursuing non-doership does not
      entail
      the same thing.

      Similarly for surrender to the deity. Total surrender wipes away any
      sense
      of independent doership! But it also yields total love. But the mere
      absence of the sense of doership needn't bring on total love. This is
      one
      of the reasons that Wayne and Ramesh *also* talk about the resonance
      between disciple and guru...

      I know some people who have followed just the non-doership teaching
      for
      several years, and some of them feel miserable and stuck in having to
      cope
      with the arisings in consciousness that they know there is no
      responsibility for....

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      XAN:

      When attention shifts away from the form expressions and
      back into awareness itself one is free and therefore able
      to give freedom.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      XAN:

      I was just reading about the his Fear-No-More Zoo.
      Let the animals show them!!!

      http://zoo.adidam.org/Leelas/home.htm

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      JIVANO:

      For some years by now Mikaire is using shame
      in his Satsangs - often, like Pou, in it's
      "common denominator" like the shame of our
      fathers and ancestors.

      This technique is called "abstraction" or
      "rationalization" and it breaks down to avoidance
      of the situation HERE and NOW. This tendency
      is supported at large by Mikaire and in
      his Sangha.

      Consequently the feelings are less and less
      lived on a personal level, instead of expressing
      their own feelings the Satsang-participants
      are lead into "talking about" instead of
      directly sharing their personal emotions and
      insights. I happen to know some former and
      current members of Mikaires Sangha personally
      and can observe the results of this technique
      directly.

      On top of the normal layers of resistances,
      on top of the normal ego-defenses, additional
      layers are created. The personal feelings are
      no longer expressed in a natural way, any
      intimate talks are again and again bent into
      talks which use great words - like "collective
      shame" to avoid the personal references to
      oneself. Instead of using spirituality to
      discover one's own hidden agenda, it is used
      to build layer upon layer of spiritual talk
      on top of the "normal neurotic" personality
      (created in our society from early childhood).

      On top of the "normal ego" another "spiritual ego"
      is created. A spiritual personality, which is
      all too happy to talk about feelings to avoid
      one's own. A spiritual personality, which is
      even proud about "working" on it's own improvement.

      Don't we have enough personal shame to look at?
      Isn't it shamefull enough, how we use spirituality
      to decorate our ego, instead of being ready to
      have it reduced?

      Many members of the Sangha (and this may as well
      include the majority of the NonDualitySalon as
      far as I know) have been in contact with teachers
      and Masters (from Bhagwan to Alan Lowen, from
      Barnett to Satyam Nadeen, from Miracle of Love to
      who-knows-what-else) with all their ego-friendly
      environments. Having our ego fattened until the
      doctor (or death) comes.

      Using our spiritual names to boast about "our"
      master. Running around in red and silly outfit,
      so that everybody could see how holy we are.
      Speaking about meditation, enlightenment and now
      about advaita so that everybody should recognize
      our great improvements, our infallible
      accomplishments, awareness and enlightenment.
      Names changes - in the 1970s it was "in" to use
      the words "enlightenment" and "meditation",
      now it's "nonduality", - the individuals remain
      as they are, greedy and envy, jealous and ambitious.
      Only instead of being greedy for money we are
      now greedy for "realization". Instead of being
      proud about a new car we are now happy to share
      our learned "nonduality" concepts.

      No transformation, just an additional layer of
      ego-gratifying words. Instead of becoming naked
      we put on more masks - spiritual masks.
      Instead of reality, the day-to-day reality of
      our everyday life as it is, we've chosen
      SPIRITUALITY.

      The results can be seen directly in any Satsang
      - be it an actual Satsang or this email list.



      Enough shame to look at?

      Shame comes when a personal, unwanted truth
      is uncovered.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      JAN & DAN:

      Jan:
      Moral baggage is one of the means to exert "power over people" and
      keep them ignorant of the real nature,
      whereas unconditional learning ability results in what jokingly could
      be called "self-organizing anarchy",
      in the sense of absence of any form of political authority.
      Something that throughout history has been seen and acted upon as
      "ultimate threat".


      Dan:
      Wonder if when Jesus said "the meek shall
      inherit the earth" this could be translated
      as "those who are able to learn unconditionally
      shall inherit the earth"? Of course, he
      also recommended being willing to lose the
      world for the sake of one's soul, which may
      well be another aspect of "unconditional learning".


      Jan:
      I agree, in the Dutch translation it reads like "losing one's life to
      gain Life" and a more concise summary of unconditional surrender
      cannot be made.. The meek, inheriting the earth has been prevented in
      the middle ages, when the Cathars and Albigenses were exterminated. In
      this era, such a policy won't be possible and when it becomes clear
      that contrary to what has become custom in some cultures, "the quest"
      is far easier for youths than for those of "grandfather age", the meek
      will be seen to inherit the earth :) Knowledge never was lost - in
      Rosicrucian circles, one is quite aware that the greatest gift for a
      newly born is to be born into a family of *knowers*.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      MICHAEL:
      Hey everybody!
      I have a small question to pose.

      Why?

      Why does anything exist at all!?!?

      You know, it's such a small question.

      Probably not important that it be answered...

      HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

      Peace - walk in beauty - Michael

      ps Be careful if you choose to answer that one. :-)
      It was posed by the 4,000,000 year old entity. ;-))


      GREG:
      That's another one of those two-part questions like "Have you stopped
      taking cocaine yet?" That is, it first has to be estalished that
      anything
      exists...

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      MICHAEL:

      For me there are no more questions. Who is who, why is why and
      all is one. Who is asking. Who gives a shit.
      Why are there so many layers.

      There only is. Whatever drama comes into this little dream is
      wonderful and welcome. Be it extreme bliss or extreme pain.

      If this helps, fine. If this is utter nonsense, fine. The game was
      being played long before any of us appeared. It will be playing long
      after we cease to appear.

      From the vastness of conciousness and bliss
      We are all formed to appear in this dream
      Where one sees beauty, joy and life
      Another sees starkness, fear and death

      Again, why?
      Like a child
      I answer - because! So there!

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      BOB ROSE quotes Kir Li Molari:


      The veil of illusion is torn asunder
      and the beauty, love, and wisdom of
      reality is realized. As the moment
      occurs, the mind says its final
      farewell with statements like
      "Oh my God!" and "Thank you God!"
      Then, the freeing realization that
      One is talking to OneSelf. And the
      blissful silence sounds internally,
      infinitely, eternally.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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