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Highlights of Friday October 6, 2000

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  • Gloria Lee
    GENE & VICTOR ... it ... is ... Hi Gene, A deep bow for your investigations and writings. For explanatory purposes the Bonpo divide That into three areas ---
    Message 1 of 1 , Oct 7, 2000
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      GENE & VICTOR

      > Our discussions of 'moving energy' deserve careful consideration;
      it
      > is good to avoid preoccupation with 'phenomena', but if something
      is
      > apparent, it is bad to ignore it.


      Hi Gene,

      A deep bow for your investigations and writings.

      For explanatory purposes the Bonpo divide That into three areas ---
      The space of mind, the space of phenomena, and the space of space.
      Then they say, however, that there is no separation between the spaces
      --- they are simply a unity.

      One of the methods used to recognize this unity is the 49 day dark
      retreat where the retreatant comes to the understanding that all is
      originating from themselves. Additionally there is the practice of
      sky-gazing where one integrates with the sky. The Bonpo have many
      practical and profound methods for arriving at this understanding.

      Just an interjection which may be of interest.

      Cheers,

      Victor
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      FRANZ

      dear andrew,

      i am very surprised to read this message of you this morning. my , by
      yesterdays and this early morning happened and still happening shakes
      and quakes, shattered + unmasked ego, wants to bath in your attention.

      in this darkest darkness, light was hidden, and accidently, what you
      proposed to me, namily to let go of my "peaceful perception", and to
      see what is beneath, in this spirit of inquiry, happened a few hours
      ago.

      yes, even love rises from "source". enlightenment rises from "source".
      and the i wants It. so sneaky, so tricky and so selfdeceiving,
      building right away a new identity and looking for a showroom to play
      the saviour, and to get finally love and attention and approval and
      power!!! i am talking about MY EGO, not for anybody elses.

      and how i perceive anything, i see it through my taken on filters of
      mind, in my imagination, and if i do not ask : "who sees it?" , i am
      trapped, however enlightned and bright the perception or identity is!!

      i also found that it is ,at least for me, impossible to understand
      the mystery of life or myself. sri nisargadatta said: "understanding
      is all". for me its not. understanding is important, but it can never
      ever substitute experience and stillness. for me it is like this.
      and my wish to understand was always the attempt to have control, and
      to avoid to give over and to let go.!

      the i, wishing to "finally understand, to be able to let go",what a
      great trick to resist and avoid.

      there is no possibility of control. none.

      and , shame. the other side of the coin is arrogance and pride. have
      it better to see as denying it .

      thank you!!

      burning hearts

      franz
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      ANDREW

      dear franz,

      I am so happy reading your post. Especially that what you say happened before
      you read
      my post. I recognised something in your post, that blissful peace you spoke of
      so easy
      a place to stay in its warm sweetness, an ocean of ambrosia, and so hard to set
      it
      aside, but it is a gilded cage but only seen as such from the outside.
      Experience is
      endless and can never be held on to any more than 'i' can be. No permanent i no
      permanent experience. Understanding grows by the continuous flow of experience.

      love,
      andrew
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      DAN

      Dear Nobody,

      Thank you for sharing
      your insights here.

      Apart from my experience
      here, now, what is there?
      Talk of shame, of body,
      of feeling -- this
      is only for "me"
      only for "now and here"...

      Any and all experience
      is "mine, here, now"...

      Talk matters not at all
      except insofar it
      assists me opening to
      who I am, here, now,
      even "prior to"
      any experiencing
      or collection of experience.

      What talk can do this for me?

      And yet, we talk.

      And why not, we are
      free to talk...

      I enjoy open talk,
      talk that is not
      redundant,
      talk that doesn't
      overly strive to impress
      a point or make
      someone see.

      There is no one to
      make see, and nothing
      for them to be made
      to see.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      JUDI

      And something else Franz I want to say to you. In my experience with
      seeking, I experienced many blissful and oneness states of consicousness.
      Exquisitely delicious to be sure and many of them carried understanding.
      And that's what I thought it was all about, was to be found in those
      experiences somewhere, and if I could somehow stay there that was the
      trick.
      But the thing is, you see, those states would come and go and it was
      like I was on this roller coaster so that I was never completely satisfied.
      And then finally, as it turned out in my case, understanding of the
      whole nature of that and of experience itself , blissful or otherwise, made
      itself plain through the undermining of who I thought I was, this separate
      character who was the experiencer, the *one* experiencing of all of that.
      Understanding you see, undermines that whole notion of their being a
      *one*
      to experience all that. It is absolute freedom itself. And therein lies
      our true *identity*. It is purely consciousness itself. Not even a
      *one*.
      So, therefore I can say "I AM FREEDOM" itself. I AM IT. There is ONLY
      IT.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      ED

      First there is no search, then search arises

      to find itself not searching.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      DAN

      Judi Da,

      This is good stuff.

      I'm always trying to catch myself,
      and I'm always one step behind.

      If I could only just grab me before
      I do this terrible thing called
      suffering.

      But I just can't grab ahold of it.

      It's already happened.

      Where's it coming from anyway?

      Same place as everything else.

      And me, I'm always one step
      behind, always almost getting it,
      a penny short and a day late.

      Love,
      Dan

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      JERRY coming up for air

      Thanks, Greg. I'm settling in. Wow, your dad designed part of
      Disneyland. I always wondered who designed the Twilight Zone. Remember
      on the Twilight Zone, Rod Serling would say, 'There's a signpost ahead,
      next stop, the Twilight Zone.' They would show an actual wooden sign
      post. I always wondered who put that signpost up. Did some workman get
      up one morning and tell his wife, Yeah honey gotta go put up a sign in
      the twilight zone. Maybe your dad was the designer behind that, figuring
      out how the sign would float around in space. Wait, it's starting to
      sound very familiar! Yikes!

      WHERE IS EVERYBODY???

      Love,
      Jerry
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      NEO & JAN


      ºWhen I thought about how the world could be created from oneness I did have
      ºanother thought. If we go back to the analogy of the ocean wave only
      ºexisting because there is an interface between water and no water. Actually
      ºthis is not quite true as there is water in the air. This makes me wonder
      ºif awareness can undergo changes in "density", i.e., awareness more or less
      ºconcentrated.
      º
      ºI do not have any answer. Just interesting speculation that I have not seen
      ºdiscussed.
      º
      ºneo

      Interesting speculation indeed - man is fixated on "begin" and end" because that
      is the case for all manifested objects, although the "hint" is that apparently
      manifestation goes on ad infinitum. However it is more likely that manifest and
      unmanifest aren't a duality but are oneness and although the human mind
      conceives things like a "begin" - the Big Bang, one wonders about what caused it
      etc. so it can't be a begin. This sets one on a course of perceived cause and
      effect, and in that case the "begin" is as hypothetical as the convergence of
      two parallel lines in the "infinite" :)

      Love,
      Jan

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Judi sends:

      Da Free John:

      When you see that you are always seeking, understanding is emerging.
      When you see the pattern of Naricissus as all your motives, all your
      acts, all your seeking, understanding is emerging. When you see you are
      always suffering, understanding is emerging. When you see that every
      moment is a process in dilemma, understanding is emerging. When you see
      that every moment is a process of identification, differentiation, and
      desire, understanding is emerging. When you see that every moment, when
      you are at your best as well as when you are at your worst, you are only
      avoiding relationship, then you understand. When you see that which
      already is, apart from the avoidance of relationship, which already
      absorbs consciousness prior to the whole dilemma, motivation and
      activity of avoidance, then you have finally understood.

      When you have understood (when that insight has become real),
      understanding will become the natural response of your intelligence to
      any experience, the total content of any moment. Then approach every
      moment with understanding, and perceive the original truth within in.

      Therefore, when you have understood, devote yourself to understanding,
      in the midst of all experience, instead of any kind of remedial action
      that arises as a means to handle the problem of life at any moment.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      GENE POOLE excerpts from 3 different longer posts

      <http://www.aroter.org/articles/dzog.htm>

      Quote from above site:

      "... It really is very sad, but then that happens
      in every religious system. It happens wherever
      people are involved. I feel it is very important to
      emphasize kindness, especially to people interested
      in Tantra or the teachings of Dzogchen. If a person
      cannot really connect to a sense of kindness toward
      others, then the teachings that stress the non-dual
      approach can simply be distorted into a method of
      cultivating some form of sanctified misanthropy."

      "Other" is an 'aphasic' version of self, which is viewed not
      backwards, like a mirror, but actually 'inside out' in every way.
      What is seen as outside (walls of box) is actually what is inside the
      one doing the viewing (you, awareness). Properly, this 'aphasic'
      version of self is called 'inversion', a term used almost exclusively
      in Buddhism. It is difficult to understand, but can be found in the
      Avatamsaka Sutra.

      ------------

      Now on to the kernel of the issue:

      The 'textures of everyday life' seem to desensitize us to what we
      would see, as we look beyond the foreground onto the background. This
      is why I advise merely 'not focusing' on foreground events; while
      looking beyond them into infinity (the far distance), what is seen is
      not coarse, but extremely fine in texture. Huge objects (planets,
      stars, galaxies) are finer than the tiniest grains of sand. This is
      the seamless nature of 'Display'. It is upon or against this
      background, that movement is seen. Movement which can be seen is
      gross, in comparison to the fine background. Our attention is
      conditioned to be drawn to this 'concrete' layer of movement. It is
      in this foreground that insufficiencies are perceived, and 'fixes'
      attempted. One becomes 'one with the movement of the foreground'
      unless one 'remembers oneself' (empty awareness), in which all
      movement is occurring.

      Empty awareness

      <http://209.157.200.60/mahamudra/manjushri.htm>

      does not discriminate, but does notice, and can describe and even
      'explain' in a relativistic context. This is what I am attempting
      now.
      -----------------------------------------

      So the talk of ordinary daily existence is really the revealing of
      awareness of self ("I") and what self observes (other), but it is
      common to become lost in chatter with oneself (the internal
      conversation), because all talk is really with self, but this self is
      known as other. Remember the two-headed snake, each head thinks the
      other is a separate snake.

      "Knowing this, I know what I do not know". This is empty awareness,
      seeing movement; that which recedes from the grasp, which cannot be
      touched, is simply moving toward my own other 'head', which if I ask
      it as 'other', can tell me all about how I look to 'it', and I can
      return the favor. This becomes really interesting when both self and
      other are self-aware; the snake sees itself and has a very satisfying
      meal, which can go on for infinity. Yum!

      ---------------------------

      "What is seen?"

      Now, to move to what is apparently seen; this I referred to as the
      'scanner', which in movement fast or slow, is a readout of the action
      of mind relative to itself, as seen against the finest background
      texture of infinite other, or 'self'. Now we are getting somewhere!

      The 'scanner' is the looker, looking at the fine texture of infinity;
      you notice the movement BECAUSE YOU ARE LOOKING. It is the action of
      looking, which is the motion you are seeing.

      If you simply look beyond the motion, the motion will slow and slow.
      If you do this with calm deliberation, and keep it up, time as you
      'know it' will cease.

      If you can understand what you just read, congratulations!

      Implications:

      Travel is a function of movement in space. But all space is really,
      one space. If time ceases, movement is no longer an issue; movement
      needs time. When time ceases, all space is one space (awareness is
      'unified'). The background is then, where you are. You have just
      traveled to the opposite 'end' of infinity; you have become the
      'other' you were perceiving. Now, your texture is as fine as
      infinity. Now, you are able to notice the most subtle movements in
      yourself (space).

      Now you know mind, as the movement of enquiry.

      Self-awareness can be said to be the cessation of time, space, and
      the self which was seeing other; now, self is other.

      [end of transmission]

      -------------------------------------------

      >I mean what is the function of emotion????? I keep trying to make it
      >a fuel of some sort....in this sense the pleasure evokes a desire to
      >keep seeing the foreground, background shifting......but this may be
      >focusing on the phenomenon right?????
      >
      >Marcia

      Marcia, you are coming down to what I recognize as an important place to be.

      You are sensing (properly) what I refer to as the 'compass of pleasure'.

      This is my own concept, which I have used many times to guide others
      toward the 'Ultimate Selfishness', awareness of Enlightened
      Self-Interest.

      If you follow that compass, you cannot go wrong. But this is NOT to
      say, 'if it feels good, do it'. An intelligent adult knows about
      hangovers, side-effects, jail, and other unpleasantness. The compass
      of pleasure must be used, with corrections (similar to 'magnetic
      deviation' with actual compass) of degrees of informed wisdom.

      Still, I advocate that a mature one, follow that compass. Here are
      the statements:

      "You can have it all"

      "You are all that you can have"

      The compass points always to what is suited for you.

      Emotion is movement (yeah, 'of energy'), but more gross than thought.
      Feeling senses emotion.

      Thought-movement can overwhelm feeling, with emotion which is a
      self-reward for thinking only 'safe' thoughts. Knowing safety, is
      also knowing the alternative. But in maturity, one knows (usually
      from experience) that there is no substitute for experience.
      Eventually one leaves behind thoughts which are used to disguise what
      is aversive. The compass of pleasure can navigate perfectly, in an
      aversive universe, but only if feeling is freed from overwhelming
      emotion. It is feeling which is this compass, but a person who
      censors self with value-laden identifications, makes so much
      territory taboo, that one ends up policing others. This is the
      dilemma of our parents.

      Our parents gave us the conditioning to be safe in a world of
      irrationality, but in doing so, did not example to us what a
      self-aware person is. Safety is not a substitute for self-awareness,
      but rule-following was given the highest priority. We are only now
      exploring the possibility of real freedom.

      A free person does not censor self, but instead controls self. This
      self-control is to be free, not safe. Freedom is the only real
      safety, but one who is free, is in no danger. The one who is free is
      in no danger, because of self-control.

      Now we have to salvage self-control from the bad name it was given by
      the way our parents used it on themselves and on their children. The
      example of 'self-control' our parents gave us was this:

      "Follow my example of self-control, or I will control you". This is
      experienced however, as:

      "Self-control makes me an asshole. Be like me."

      Freedom is not the opposite of self-control, it is self-control. The
      compass of pleasure works only for those who are mature enough to use
      it wisely.

      ==Gene Poole==

      ********************************************************************************
      ***
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