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Nondual Digest for Friday, July 16

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  • umbada@xx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxx)
    Hello. The Nondual Digest is a sampling of the best posts appearing on the Nonduality Salon mailing list each day. It is sent out once a day and there is no
    Message 1 of 1 , Jul 18, 1999
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      Hello. The Nondual Digest is a sampling of the 'best' posts
      appearing on the Nonduality Salon mailing list each day. It
      is sent out once a day and there is no discussion on this
      list. It was created as an alternative to negotiating the
      often heavy flow of email traffic on Nonduality Salon.

      A copy of this is being sent to Alan's ContemplativeEclectic
      list. Many of you know Alan as one of the most energetic
      contributors to the nondual/spiritual scene on the Internet.
      The truck driving family man from Portland, Oregon, may be
      joined at his active list at

      <http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/contemplativeclectic>

      If you'd like to subscribe to Nondual Digest please click
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      ---Jerry

      _______________________________________________________________________

      Melody says:

      It seems to me that if you were more honoring
      of the spaces you traveled thru in the past,
      it would free you to be more honoring of the
      spaces others share from today....however that
      unfolds to be.


      _______________________________________________________________________


      Xan says:

      Most people do think they are their minds, or their bodies.

      As for me, I try to be careful about what I say I am where
      my ears are close enough to hear it. And this is reminder
      to be more careful yet.

      ------------------------------------------------------------------------

      In India there are some very poisonous snakes and numbers of
      people die from their bites every year. So when a man was
      out walking at night and saw a snake he became very
      frightened and ran to a tree, climbed it and stayed there
      until morning. When the sun came up he peeked out between
      the branches and looked around. Where he had seen a snake
      there was only a rope! He laughed and laughed, jumped down
      and went on his way, very happy about his mistake.

      But ... who is reading this story?

      -----------------------------------------------------------------------

      What would you want a person to know,
      that they have an imaginary center or
      that they are perfect and pure wholeness
      and always have been?


      _______________________________________________________________________


      Greg says:

      ...sooner or later you'll have to find a way to reconcile
      thought and the Peace that we Are. The Peace can't be
      something that is present only when thoughts aren't, or
      you'll have made just another object/thought/state out of
      that Peace. Maybe you'll see that thoughts never were, or
      that they too are nothing other than Peace.

      ------------------------------------------------------------------------

      The personal guru, live or dead, can keep the trip from
      being intellectual, and the non-attachment to the intellect
      is necessary on the trip. But the human guru can be an
      attachment as well. I know several people who feel great in
      the presence of their guru, and feel depressed and
      diminished when away.

      Submission and surrender are important steps, and like you
      say, the object of this surrender can be inner or outer. I
      think the important step is that the surrender be away from
      what the aspirant think of as her/his self.

      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      ...whenever you do or see anything, there is just awareness
      and peace. This happens to everyone more than we realize
      (all the time actually), and it is as peaceful as deep
      sleep. When you really look at a tree, there's no Tim and
      no tree. Only when a later thought comes is it thought that
      "I was looking at a tree."

      But even that later thought is only THAT and it not present
      when it's happening. Only when a still later thought comes
      do you
      think that the previous thing was a thought and an
      interruption of the
      peace. But even this present thought is the same thing, and
      over and over. This is one of the ways to see thoughts as
      peace. This is
      sahaja samadhi. The great non-dualist teachers say that our
      natural state is always sahaja samadhi.



      _______________________________________________________________________


      Glo says:

      it is likely very wise of you to take some time to enjoy
      and become more familiar with this peace. For you to stop
      thought and ruminating and seeking and abide in the moment
      is really
      cool. It is also wise to know one's own limitations. Those,
      too,
      are in the moment and are just that..for now, nothing
      permanent.
      unless you are made of velcro and they stick like glue. Ha!
      No
      need or requirement to stress yourself out.. no one is
      asking you to
      be any different than what you are..until you are ready and
      ask
      this growth of yourself. Those who remind us of ourselves
      are
      indeed the most difficult sometimes to accept. Sometimes I
      feel
      like I have infinite patience to listen carefully to almost
      anything..somedays I just cannot be bothered to think at
      all. Or
      it depends if I feel someone else is already handling
      something
      far better than I could...everything is not your assignment
      in
      life. This is partly why comparing ourselves to another is
      so
      useless, you may focus on this one tiny area and this huge
      unknown
      rest of the story is forgotten in doing that. There is a
      vast
      repertoire of new possibilities now available to you. Enjoy
      this peace..it is your gift to yourself, feels like about
      time, huh??

      Still, I like to imagine many small and private victory
      celebrations were held throughout the cosmos in your honor.

      ------------------------------------------------------------------------


      I wasn't exactly raised by wolves, but I WAS raised by
      comedians. We laughed at everything and anything and still
      do. Sometimes the worse it gets, the more hopeless it seems,
      the funnier the absurdity is to me... in other words..it can
      be totally tasteless humor. Once I was in this car wreck and
      the car skids in slow motion or so it feels, like you have a
      lot of time in those few seconds, so I see this telephone
      poll is right in the trajectory and think this could be
      it..the end. I swear my very next thought was that I should
      not have left dinner simmering on the stove, who knows how
      long before anyone would get back to the house now. Then I
      laughed at myself for having such a silly "last thought" ..I
      mean if ever it was going to be irrelevant for me to worry
      about dinner!! See, the mind really is ridiculous. You can't
      intend humor like this..its really beyond my control. It was
      even funnier to me once I saw I was going to live after
      all. Later in the emergency room.. like the doctor tells me
      its 4 broken ribs and a ruptured, collapsed lung..and I'm
      figuring that's
      good news..the fact that I am in excrutiating pain and can't
      breathe doesn't mean death is still likely after all.

      So when he explains he's going to insert this tube where a
      scar won't show in a swimsuit, I hoarsely whisper, "Oh no,
      there
      goes my career as a topless dancer." Well, for a few seconds
      anyway, they wondered if I might be serious, before they
      cracked
      up.. maybe you had to be there.

      So nothing much is like "too serious" to strike me funny,
      even my own death, and that was a dozen years before I
      realized I
      had this nondual perspective, which actually just makes
      everything
      even funnier and more absurd to me. So you just never know
      Dan,
      what you may be asking for.. can I really just put a :) and
      say
      anything to you??

      Not that I would ever make fun of you, Dan, especially since
      there's nobody home in there in the first place. I hope the
      angels in white coats always serve your oatmeal nice and
      hot..nothing worse than cold oatmeal, is there? Center or no
      center, who
      wants that??

      ________________________________________________________________________


      Marcia says:

      It seems to me that we need to answer your question of what
      would separate soul from the world before attempting to
      answer what separates, if anything, one soul from another.
      Can we agree on that?


      _______________________________________________________________________


      Rony says:

      It is hard to accept that we have all that it takes, isn't
      it? That we don't have to seek further knowledge, that
      everything is
      really contained at this instant, that there is no need
      (neither
      ability) to add or substract from this wholeness. It is much
      easier to
      admit that we are not there yet, and that there is some work
      that's need to be done before we are ready. As I found for
      myself you are never more ready than now, and if not now
      then never. All the excuses that the mind fabricates are
      diminishing the energy that is requires to be aware of what
      is, not as another dimension, another level of being. No
      speculations about angels and dreams of something that is
      not here. Simply and truely staying with what is, even if it
      implies losing yourself (or rather loosing control). Because
      this is your life! How longer can you live with the false?
      Once you even get only a distant smell of your true nature,
      how can you ignore the call to Be it? And when you can't
      figure it out - figure it in!


      _______________________________________________________________________


      Tim G. says:

      I don't have anyone I'd consider a teacher or guru, but
      there are many that have offered positive pointers in the
      "right direction." Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, J.
      Krishnamurti, Nisargadatta, Gangaji, Buddha and many others
      (including some on the mailing lists) have been "pointing
      fingers" that I consider very helpful. However, I have felt
      no need for a Guru or (especially) a teacher. Nonduality
      cannot be taught, it must be experienced and lived.

      ------------------------------------------------------------------------

      I think it's possible to live in the moment out of a sense
      of Being. Oh, there will be cognation going on, but the
      constant inner dialog most of us have can cease. It's
      possible to look at a tree without thinking "this is a tree"
      or "This is a beautiful tree" or compare it to a
      previously-seen tree or something like that. The minute
      such a thought enters, it destroys the real experience of
      the tree, clouds it with thought and memory. To experience
      things as they are, not as they're remembered... this is
      what I mean by the ceasing of thought. And when we lie down
      to rest or to sleep, not a single thought will arise.

      -----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Another thing I noticed when I was in the thought-free
      in-the-moment state (which I haven't experienced very often)
      is that a tremendous energy of effortless DOING arose.

      Before, I have always been daunted by the conflict of the
      way things are now vs. the way I want them to be, so I
      haven't acted. The duality of "now and undone" vs. "later
      and completed" has
      greatly troubled me my entire life. Living in the moment
      without thought destroys that duality and enables me to
      act.

      I cleaned my entire apartment this morning in the space of a
      couple hours, effortlessly, not troubled by "Goddamn, this
      is taking a long time" or "maybe I'll do this later, it's
      too much trouble."

      Procrastination is the rebellion of the mind against the
      duality of the present vs. the future. If there is only the
      present, this duality vanishes.

      _______________________________________________________________________


      Gene Poole says:

      The imaginary center is very useful to writers of fictional
      stories.

      As we read such stories, we may (and perhaps usually do)
      identify with the 'character' in the story; we then tend to
      see ourselves in that 'objective' way, as we read the story.

      The same thing happens with plays and movies. The 'celebrity
      syndrome' of western culture is the longing for an objective
      center, one which is distinct and identifiable.

      The exposure of readers of fiction to the imaginary
      objective center is a powerful 'meme'... if we understand
      how propoganda and commercial advertisements work on us, via
      the process of identification, we can see how we also
      identify here in this forum. We are concerned for the
      clarity of each-other; we share our own
      perspectives, hoping to lend our own experience and wisdom
      to those others who appear to be here.

      The 'meme' of the objective center is also the same as the
      'soul' or 'atman', IMO. This subtle concept, in whatever
      form, serves
      to always innoculate the newborn with 'duality', which they
      (we) then
      must strive to overcome, finally by not striving.

      The letting go of identity is perhaps the last 'act' of the
      fiction of objective reality; freedom may be found in what
      is 'utterly
      subjective', as long as one does not trouble to find
      'objective validation' for one's 'subjective' reality.

      "Please, someone... stop me, before I identify again!"


      _______________________________________________________________________


      And here is a portion of the on-going conversation between
      Ivan and Dan to which we are all being treated:


      Ivan: I am not questioning the eventual response [to abuse]
      -- I am stating that the assumption of an ongoing center is
      harmfull, point. I am giving an exemple.

      Dan: To me, you made this point a long time ago. No further
      example is needed. Either you feel I haven't seen your
      point or you
      are intent on underlining it. I do get it, but I thought we
      had agreed on that a long time ago. I'm trying to take it
      deeper, beyond making a
      conceptual point. So I'm pointing: look, the issue is you
      and me, our awareness. It's not an issue of conceptual
      understanding. How do we react to an experience that
      involves violence or pain? Are we able to react from
      awareness, as the present?

      Ivan: Sorry -- not the issue, Dan. I think that conjectures
      on ficticious situations is meaningless, or close to it.
      Correct action can be evalueted only by oneself...I am sure
      you agree.

      Dan: The thing I'm wanting to look at is the quality of the
      action. The doing that is not-doing. You brought up the
      fictitious
      situation in the first place, so it seems ironic that you
      are now commenting that fictitious situations aren't
      helpful.

      <snip>

      Ivan: No...no...no, this matter is only for those who are
      interested in this. You don't go around pushing this thing
      down
      people's alimentary tube...

      Dan: Yes, which is you and me right now, here. As far as
      you and me, I definitely "get" what you have been saying
      about the
      "center" as belief in a permanent inner observer. I feel I
      have many times communicated agreement about it. I disussed
      centers in a different way than usual (I was referring to a
      temporary center constructed for use as a reference point)
      and lost you on that. Then we got off on a tangent.
      The tangent seems to involve going back and forth until
      we're no longer
      coming from the open awareness of "what is." At what point
      is a tangent simply a distraction? At what point is it a
      mere conceptual pursuit? I felt we reached that point and
      wanted to "return" to "what is."

      <snip>
      Ivan: Nobady discards their center. One can understand, see,
      that there is not an inner entity...

      Dan: Yes, I have communicated awareness of this.
      <snip>

      Ivan: Of course it's enough! And what is separation? Is it
      not Me and You? And what is Me? -- You tell me...
      (uau.!!....now I'm really angry!! -- beware)

      Dan: You are You. What I am supposed to tell you about
      You? I am I. This is This. Your angry statement is your
      angry statement. This is all self-evident. If what you have
      been saying about inner observers and centers is true, then
      what is there to separate us?

      <snip>
      Dan: Seeing through the illusion is exactly what we have
      been spending all of this time discussing.

      Ivan: Well, excencialy, yes. Sometimes we missed the issue
      each other was adressing...

      Dan: Yes. Nonetheless, there has been communication. You
      take this seriously. I see that. Seriousness can help
      awareness to
      "remain" with what is. As can humor, at times.

      <snip>


      Dan: I don't see how these kinds of definitions assist
      nondual awareness. To express where I am coming from: I am
      concerned with seeing through the center, not even bringing
      anything to an end. How can something that is an illusion,
      that was never real in the first place, be brought to an
      end?

      Ivan: What comes to an end is the feeling, thinking that I
      am an entity inside this body.

      Dan: All feelings come to an end. All thoughts come to an
      end. I'm not concerned with bringing anything to an end.
      Things end when they will. My action is non-action.

      -----------
      Dan: The point at which we have arrived is a point of
      letting go of unreality, and a point of not-doing.
      Nondoing, activity
      that is causeless, is occurring here now. From this point of
      nondoing, there is nothing to state, no correct or incorrect
      way to understand things.

      Ivan: Absolutly on accord. The whole issue arised because I
      am extremely interested in understanding how did you manage
      to takle the
      wholle thing :^) without going into the understanding of
      that inner entity. The way you put things, it seems that you
      where born without it, never had it, and has not it. Lucky
      you!!!

      Dan: I tackled the whole thing as the whole thing. Ivan,
      it strikes me as pretty funny that you would say I didn't go
      into understanding this inner entity, when it seems like the
      main topic of several conversations for days. You say there
      is no inner entity and then you're surprised I was born
      without it. You seem to suggest it's important for "me" to
      have more understanding of this thing that isn't real. Who
      is this "me" who should have this understanding? Who is the
      "me" who is lucky to have been born without an unreal inner
      entity?
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