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NDS Highlights - Sunday October 1, 2000

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  • Manchine
    LOTS OF STUFF! SO MANY HIGHLIGHTS. Hang in there! ... GENE & SANDEEP (cont d) SANDEEP: Who continues to learn? And is it learning or playing? So I rephrase the
    Message 1 of 1 , Oct 2 8:53 AM
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      Hang in there!

      GENE & SANDEEP (cont'd)

      Who continues to learn?
      And is it learning or playing?
      So I rephrase the question who continues to play through Gene, in
      precisely the form and manner it does, as per the innate programming
      of the biological computer labelled Gene?

      Activity continues, but purpose changes, refines, becomes one thing
      only, which is the dance.

      Learning is (for me at least) play, to the consternation of some
      others, so I observe. So yes, as you ask, this comparison can be
      made, and that itself implies some kind of movement.

      My own advocacy, is that what this is, overall, is 'sharing'. But
      this sharing is not a 'parcelling-out' of something limited, as would
      robbers 'share' the spoils. No, it is Being, filled with the
      ineffable effulgence of Self, the vast mystery, as intoxicating as it
      is sobering. It is limitless, and cannot be given or taken, only
      accepted as-it-is, and here is the 'rub', because it does not match
      the expectations of many, it is rejected, and something else (as if
      there were anything else) is sought.

      One may simply journey, or one may journey with a 'purpose', as one
      chooses, and this freedom itself expresses the truth that is being
      sought with purpose, yet truth is unseen, for to see it is to end the
      journey (of seeking) and thus be without purpose.

      There, have I said it?

      The "me-entity" can only exist on the bed-rock of the assumption of
      it's volition and "personal doership.

      Without that assumption or more correctly with the apperception
      happening of the illusoriness of those assumptions, there is no
      me-entity left.

      If no-one is looking, no-one is seeing? And then, to cease looking,
      is to cease seeing? To cease seeing, is to cease Being? And thus it
      is then, that to cease being, one ceases looking? Looking, then, is
      the volition which perpetuates illusion, and thus not-looking is
      not-seeing illusion, and ergo, nothing is seen, not even the seer,
      who is the supreme illusion?

      Sounds like magic, Sandeep. Bwahahaha!

      But that is cool! I dig it!

      So let's be clear, apperception cannot be apperceived by any
      perceiver because then the "me-entity" in the form of the
      "perceiver" is back in action and thus you have all those beautiful,
      profound spiritual experiences.

      Yes, your point is taken. I would add, that not everyone classifies
      such events as 'profound spiritual experiences'. In this forum, with
      its (inevitable?) usage and falling-back on spiritual terminology,
      such terms are used, but this is not the universal language of
      understanding. On a more primary level, I personally experience it in
      ways that are not expressible in this quasi-Hindu, crypto-Buddhist
      lingo. I have made an effort to translate into that bastardized
      lingua franca, but it is not my native currency. So let us get that
      straight, between 'us'.

      All experiences whether profane or profound can only occur in phenomenality.

      In accord with what I have stated above, I hereby deny the profane
      and the profound.


      How be it, that one is thinking thoughts that resist easy
      translation, no matter the temptation to render these thoughts in the
      pabulum demanded by the many? Could it be (I am asking) that there is
      beyond profound and profane, or better, beneath profound and profane,
      an easy 'knowing' which laughs effortlessly at the towers of
      self-congratulatory 'wisdom', which has made itself the de facto
      standard of 'understanding'? Is it not time to kick that particular
      sand-castle, back to the elementary particles from which it was so
      painstakingly made? I hereby administer such a kick!

      How is it, that survival is not an issue of defeating an enemy, but
      of placating friends? And this urge to placate, this demanded
      smoothness, this non-interference with the status-quo, is the ticket
      to ride in ease, as you know, yes?

      <getting bumpy!>

      So then imagine, I ask you, to see that there are those among us, who
      eschew such blandishments; seeing outright the inherent worthlessness
      of such homogenizing forces, having a different preference
      altogether. And seeing this, to ask yourself, by what words would be
      expressed, what is the other?

      It is not enough, I say, to say that 'words fail'. No, words do not
      fail, only certain words fail, where others may succeed. And what in
      this case, would those words be? Would they be mere equivocation, a
      simple yet disguised recapitulation of the yore of yesteryear? Must
      we tread in the footsteps of Krishna, or may we stand where no-one
      stands, and survey from that point, the vastness of the territory
      where Krishna walks? And standing in that place, we are unseen, for
      no-one stands there, and yet it is from this vantage, which I observe.

      What do I see, you ask? Go ahead... ask, if you dare.

      As water, the crest is I, the depth is I.

      What oscillations could I possibly have?

      I experience the oscillations of the greater system, they occur in
      me, as day and night, etc.

      With all due respects Gene, a greater wave is still a wave.

      Indeed, and I stated it as such, not a denial, but an affirmation!

      Here, have some more tea.

      Self realization is an oxymoron statement or a self contradictory
      goal, no matter what particular song and dance you adopt to move
      towards self realization.

      Yes. But everything must have a convenient label. Perhaps I should
      sell 'angel-wings in a can', just as real. Think of the profits!

      That's why I said earlier , if you had a choice (which you don't)
      between a million bucks and enlightenment, go for the million bucks.
      You will at least be around to get to enjoy the million bucks.

      I'll take both, thanks, In fact, I'll take it all!

      You need to be handing out dikshas, meditations, mantras, malas,
      some good old sex-energy exchanges, some Kundalini power surges
      through the third eye, be able to quote the Scriptures and a nice
      set-up is up and about, running.

      Yes, I admit that I am a little rusty in these arts. But
      nonetheless, today I turned into a driveway. Does that count?

      That must have got the cops following you. (assuming you mean you
      crashed, please don't forget I am not native English born, the
      language mystifies me)

      No, to steer the car from the street to the private drive, is
      colloquially called 'turning into a driveway'.

      But even more miraculous, this morning I will make myself a plate of eggs!

      And yet if that is what gets to occur, it's only Consciousness
      having a good laugh at itself.

      The laughter never stops, it is just not always appreciated.


      Thank you for the walk Gene.

      Prost ( I never learn)

      Do you like Scotch? Is so, what is your favorite?

      Happiness continues!

      Aways open,

      ==Gene Poole==

      GENE & POU


      Greetings Pou, to continue:

      Gene you wrote me:

      'That is why I say that the sword cuts both ways'.

      Gene, I enjoyed your lengthy and well presented argument. It's very
      rare that I print off postings, but more than one of yours has made
      it through the printer.

      I'm particularly fascinated in light of some of your comments re the
      motivations of the unconscious patterns for an individual. Many
      years ago I realized that as individuals awaken, they also awaken in
      accordance to where and how they as individuals consciously are. I
      do not feel to be awake is an automatic qualification to be
      'conscious human being'. That I believe is a time honored process.

      Perhaps you have been following or have looked into the metaphors
      involved in the 'larval/post-larval/post-terrestrial' model of human
      evolution/growth/neural maturation.

      The awakening of the post-larval is a significant event, but does not
      convey wisdom. There is much work to be done.

      I feel each individual can only be in accordance to their personal
      understanding at the time of awakening 'Wie viel ist aufzuleiden'
      How much suffering there is to get through!

      Yes... the cocoon-wrappings of the larval, are the attachments to
      world-dream materials; these attachments must be consumed (put in
      correct place). An individual is capable only of imbibing into
      wisdom, only what has been experienced, and that is all suffering of
      one sort or another.

      Initial awakening is also a great opportunity to experience denial.
      Shree Rajneesh has spoken much on this topic as with many others.
      Nisargadatta, Ramana, Suzuki Roshi, Papaji... A person suddenly
      released from the contructs of identification, a 'mental prison'
      called 'mind' often does and can experience dramatic consequences
      due to sudden liberation of a sort.

      Yes, I have personal experience with this event.

      You may be aware that many schools of enlightenment do not allow a
      person to teach until one has deeply cultivated their understanding
      of awakening.

      Yes. What of independents, those outside of administered circles?

      Here in Europe, there is a mass awakening of people that one might
      call, the recognition 'that I'm not the thinker of my thoughts',
      'that I am that'.

      Yes, I hear of this.

      In the very early 90s a friend of mine came back from being with a
      gentleman called Papaji in Lucknow in India. It was obvious from the
      moment I looked into his eyes that something had transpired for him
      while he was there. His entire use of language radically changed.

      It was certainly fascinating watching my friend speak from the
      'enlightened state' or what he called the enlightened state, and
      also continued to witness his clear demonstration of identifying
      with the arising of particular emotions in the bodymind complex.
      Several of us watched this and it was obvious, even though myself
      not being "enlightened", there was massive identification taking
      place with this person. Of course it rubbed up seriously with all of
      my ideas and concepts of what I "thought" the awake state was, how
      it should look, and how one should act. Dead from the neck down!

      Yes, a common enough assumption. 'Spiritual paraplegia'.

      The bodymind complex psyche still contained massive programming. A
      programming of self-condemnation, unworthiness, seeking approval and
      massive identification with the arising of shame.


      My point being here Gene, is that I strongly believe with the new
      current phase of young enlightened people that along with this
      arises a whole new possibility to bring new conscious awareness at a
      both individual and collective level. If anyone has the time, they
      really only need to read some of the writings written by others who
      have walked the path: Lord Buddha, Zen masters, Ramana Maharshi,
      Rajneesh, and a huge number of other powerful realizers to
      consciously realise much work is required after awakening. I
      understand from your post this is also your insight.

      Similar, yes. I see this happening around me.

      Gene, I have immense respect for your presence along with others. I
      honour your ability to express yourself with intelligence and yet
      with delicate vulnerability.

      My basic position or structured belief system that I adhere to, is
      that the unfolding of events in day to day life is predetermined. By
      predetermined I don't mean for an individual for I believe that
      there is only 'Consciousness'.

      Yes, it can be expressed this way. "Predetermined", as you use the
      word, would refer to the behaviour of the whole, as manifested by
      every aspect of that whole. The whole cannot conflict with itself,
      but it can internally change in ways that astound humans. Such
      changes do not imply that the whole (self) is anything less than
      whole, only that humans mistake higher harmony for deficiency.

      Choice, my concept is one identifies with that which arises, or witnesses.

      Understood. I am that which arises, and I am the witness to that arising.

      For me I place the emphasis on the work in consciousness in bringing
      awareness to where identification is taking place with that which is
      already predetermined.

      Pointing to the endless circle.

      If suffering to be had, then suffering it is to be. If being rich is
      to be had, then to be rich it is.

      To each... as it is said.

      The ability to witness is where I believe the work in consciousness
      lies. Right up to that final moment of death which is always now..

      Witnessing is abiding.

      one of your sentences, and I quote "others have not as yet
      discovered that this choice is possible".

      You may have read Victor Frankl's book 'Mans search for meaning' but
      if not, the whole message of this book is that choice is absolutely
      and totally available under any circumstances, as he so painfully
      experienced in the KZ's of Nazi Germany.

      I first read that book in school grade 11, then again later in
      college/philosophy. It had a profound influence in me (and others).
      This led me to read Rollo May, Bruno Bettleheim, Erich Fromm, and
      others who offered the fruits of their own amazing survival in worst
      possible conditions. I discovered CG Jung during my 21st year, and
      years later, studied deeply of Wilhelm Reich. I read with great
      interest, your report from A Lowen, which reinforced my own opinions
      of those matters.

      I will point out that there is a subtle yet infinite difference
      between 'choice' and 'choices'. Although I live in choice, I have no
      choices, only choice. Living in choice has been referred to as the
      'choiceless choice'.

      Sitting by the broad, broad river

      ==Gene Poole==

      DAN & CARLA, touching:

      Dr. phys. Carla says mind is just energy and will fall in a black


      Thanks for this.
      It only looks black
      when you're outside of it ;-)

      Thank you for your loving answers I enjoy .

      Do you mean the black whole as conciousness?
      Love back Carla


      Loving your responses as well... ;-)

      This black whole absorbs even
      "consciousness", for there is
      nothing to be conscious of,
      not even itself.

      Imagining ourselves to be outside
      of it, it looks black.
      When seen we are, in fact, already
      "in" it, it doesn't have a "look"
      at all.

      On the "other side" of this black
      whole is a white whole from which
      all that has been absorbed, emanates.
      At the "point" where black whole meets
      white whole, consciousness
      immediately *is* "all the objects of consciousness"
      which are now viewing themselves. Who
      can say from where or how?

      Love in a black whole,

      What puzzels me is how you can know a black whole if you still
      have a body?


      I know this black whole well,
      because it is knowing me
      right now.

      I don't know it from a position
      in the body. I know it as
      the knowing that unforms and
      forms the body, the universe.

      No body could exist without
      space to be in.
      Thus, space is all bodies,
      all bodies are space.

      Space has all bodies, so
      whatever "I" there is
      that has a body, is
      the "I" that is space.


      I touch another to feel myself.

      Yes. So who is touching whom? ...and what is
      touch when the toucher and touched are
      not-two? Is there ever even one moment
      of separation when what is being touched
      is not the toucher? (My answer to this
      is "no", there is no such moment)

      Untouchably touching,


      Your words made tears come to my eyes ,It feels so true .
      I feel the Love for God , Halleluja
      Love Carla


      In the exact moment of "touching"
      who is being touched and who is
      the toucher? Before there is
      time to refer to memory.
      This exact instant of touching,
      am I inside "behind" the touch,
      or am I outide, "being touched"?
      If, this moment, no memory brought in,
      is "touching" -- there is only touching,
      no one touching or being touched.
      Same for all senses.

      My daily life is daily life. Get up,
      go to work, say hi to friends, spend time
      with my partner. Catch up with
      paperwork (like now - ha, ha).
      Just a life being lived.


      Dear Dan,

      your reply to Carla inspired me to remind mySELF:

      ...can I do something different than what I am doing right now?

      Movements are happening, nobody doing anything... Ahhh! That's total
      freedom! FREEDOM & PEACE!

      Thank you & much Love to you-mySELF


      DAN & JIVANO

      Dear Jivano,

      For me to make sense of the
      term "spiritual ego",
      I would picture a knot of
      awareness that is busy
      avoiding looking at itself
      by pursuing "spiritual concerns"
      and the good of all.

      It pretends to force silence on itself,
      but never really comes to a stop,
      never knows unforced quiet,
      the simple observing of
      its own tensions as they arise

      As I've observed such knotted awareness
      arising "here", I've noticed its agenda
      seems to be to maintain a false
      sense of continuity, believing its
      own "spiritual opinions" to be
      a center for awareness in the universe.

      As I've observed "the universe as is 'here'", this
      knotted awareness or "spiritual ego"
      releases itself,
      as clarity is that there is no
      center of the universe.

      As this moment of clarity, no dichotomy
      is there as to "spiritual" or "nonspiritual"


      Dear all,
      reading all the mails about World War II and swearing I got such a
      longing to just sit silently, smell the autumn-fresh air mixed with
      cowdung, touch some horses, since I am so blessed to sit here amongst
      the Gods of Nature during the weekend.

      I was thinking what is it deep down in the human psyche that drives
      us to torture each other and be sadistic assholes as the German Nazis
      demonstrated or other movements down through the history since ever.

      Why do animals not do that? Are they more developed?

      Besides resistance to feel that part of being human what came up is
      that there could be a connection with sex. – As I see it sex and death
      are deeply connected and polar opposites. So, is it possible that
      there is a deep hidden (or not so hidden) sexual fascination about
      killing and torturing, mixed with lust for power?

      And is it so that we as human beings are doomed to experience all
      of the polar opposite creations (like f.e. tyrant or victim) just for
      the sake of having had the experience of duality to the max?

      We as God wanted and created this duality. Now we have it.
      So just lean back and enjoy the show? Only for my understanding the
      show is not always funny, it is also fucking deep and painful.

      So the only thing I can do is to feel my helplessness and hope I
      can surrender.

      Love Sarah

      Dear Sarah,
      your words are moving, moving and I actually don`t know where it is
      leading. It feels like a dog smelling something making his way to

      You wrote: "what is it deep down in the human psyche that drives us to
      torture each other and be sadistic assholes as the German Nazis
      demonstrated or other movements down through the history since ever."

      What I found in my own psyche is a fascination which intensity.This
      fascinatoin is related to sex, power and death. When there is
      facination- conscious or unconscious - the manifestation, the
      creation happenes.

      In many fairytales comes the point, when the hero(ine)gets hurt, when
      she gets the "ax blow".I find the symbolic language of this old tales
      very useful and adequate when speaking about processes within the

      So the facination with intencity brought the "ax blow" into my live.
      Yes, as god I have desired to feel the intensity of it.The human
      psyche was terrorized by it, feeling a victim,covering it up with
      fear,guilt and shame. Over a process of intense work within the
      psyche the covert wounds are unfolding, beeing integrated, felt.
      In this process it becomes so clear that these wounds caused by the
      "ax blow" are the doorway to a deeper understaning.

      .....it is deep it is painful and as the understanding grows that
      "the world is in me" I feel more and more helpless and it is this
      helplessness that brings me to my knees, that becomes the blessing
      the beauty

      Lot`s of love


      This is a very interesting point, and I thought it deserved to be
      highlighted more. It reminds me of the Kafka quote, "A book is an axe, to
      break the frozen sea within".

      Kafka was talking about literature, not only is a book the axe, but many
      other things. In the 4th Way, they talk about "Shocks". I know there are
      many kinds and intensities of shocks that can break the frozen sea, from a
      butterfly landing on one's nose, to an awful personal tragedy.

      In the hero myth, as outlined by Joseph Campbell in "Hero with a Thousand
      Faces", there is often that "ax blow" when the hero (or heroine) falls down
      as if dead, only to rise about again. This is often at the most intense
      point of the story, the bottom of the story, as it were, the crucible (but
      not necessarily the climax). There is a point in Star Wars where Luke
      Starwalker is sucked under the water in that giant trash masher, everyone
      thinks he is dead, then he miraculously re-appears. In The Matrix, Neo
      almost dies from the shock of something that happens out in the Matrix, but
      is brought back by Trinity's kiss.

      I know what you mean about liking intensity too.
      That is me.
      I am a heat-seeking device.


      GENE, Oh YEAH!?


      Marcia, your knowing

      Good morning, Marcia... you wrote to the 'guys':

      From: Marcia Paul
      Subject: Re: Sandeep, excellent work

      I am sorry you guys, I love you all, but I have to say some of you
      think you are so smart, like the rest of us can't see this. It is
      really funny. I think this is really a guy kind of thing. Women
      already know this. :-)


      Funny! Funny? I'll show you 'funny'!

      Marcia! Hey, now where do you 'get off', assuming that just because
      somebody says something, that that somebody who said that, by saying
      that, is saying also, that who is hearing, did not already know what
      was being said? Huh? Huh?

      And not only that, but is it not just a tad 'over the line' to also
      assume that someone 'thinks they are so smart'? Please fax me a copy
      of your graduation certificate from the "Institute of Mind Reading",
      if you 'think' you know what others think! I would rethink that
      thinking, thinks I!

      Now let me tell you something, Marcia. You 'girls' can just stand
      back, and be content just watching, as us 'guys' gather on the
      commons, displaying our god-like physiques, togas draped to maximum
      advantage, wreaths of laurel circling our high brows, as we
      expostulate the creamiest profundities, to be elevated to the virtual
      Olympus of Intellectual Valhallas, as we ride o'er the rainbow bridge
      of Aesir, drawn by the magnificent white steeds of achievement, and
      yes, the very gods themselves bow and make way, as our legions cross
      that fabled threshold, to take our rightful places as the true
      overseers and managers of the affairs (and thoughts) of one and all!

      And of course, this is possible only because of us 'guys' incredible,
      incomparable 'humility', without which we could be mistaken for mere
      strutting, pompous asses. I am proud of my humility! You, Marcia,
      could take a lesson; even a glance at our humility, should be a
      humbling experience!

      And I suppose, Marcia, that your 'definition of enlightenment' as it
      applies to 'guys', would be that a man deserves that acclamation,
      only if he remembers to put the toilet-seat back down? Does not this
      assumption of yours, if it is as I suppose, fly in the face of the
      centuries of 'guy' brilliance, such as being able to change the oil
      in your iron chariot? To fix that drippy faucet? Not to mention, such
      other vaunted accomplishments as WD-40, steel-wool, and rubber bands?
      And what about zippers?

      So when you see us 'guys', sitting around and scratching each-others
      backs, as is revealed below, please allow that special flash of
      brilliant light to permeate your cranium, thus to dispel any chronic
      complaints you may entertain, as may pertain to our ('guys')
      idiosyncrasies, foibles, shortcomings, or so-called 'flaws'. After
      all, just how else would a 'diamond in the rough' (a favorite 'gal'
      phrase) ever become that shining jewel, so craved by the esteemed
      female of our species?

      So there!

      Your Humble Servant,

      ==Gene Poole==

      JUTTA, DAN:

      Dear Jutta,
      You addressed this (below)
      to Sandeep, but
      I feel I want to
      answer, too. You raise
      some useful questions and express
      yourself directly
      and elegantly.

      For me, it is this:
      There is no next moment.
      There is no next step.
      There is no world to return

      This "dream world" is itself
      "enlightenment" or "Reality"
      exactly "this way", as is.

      Yes, here is "this" --
      And with/as "this" forming
      these forms, the "human" form
      arises. Yet its forming is
      its unforming. This isn't
      an intellectual concept alone,
      is the very *experiencing* life/death.

      If I am not ignore-ant, I cease
      any attempt to escape life/death as is.

      It is a miracle, this
      "now-moment" in which
      forming and unforming
      are one.

      This human being arises
      in agony of birth-death.
      The anquish of centuries
      of ignorance arise
      in the birth-death of
      this human being.
      The difficulties of this
      particular life experience
      also are there/here.

      Yet, in day to day life,
      each moment is pure, whole.
      Moments in which I touch a friend,
      hold someone close to me,
      speak to someone of concerns
      that affect them directly.

      The experience of fear arises,
      of loss, of love, of happiness.

      The human being, Dan, feels
      feelings, knows desire,
      wants openness of love.
      There can be hurt for Dan,
      there can be joy when
      things go "right",
      when openness is --
      sorrow when things
      go "wrong", when
      openness doesn't
      seem to be. There
      can be frustration
      when "needs" don't
      seem to be met, or
      when "misunderstanding"
      feels abundant.
      Not all is "resolved"
      for Dan, how could
      that be if Dan
      arises as human being?

      And, that there is no
      "right" or "wrong" -
      for sure - so even
      for Dan, feeling when
      things are "right" --
      that feeling itself isn't
      right or wrong.
      And so, Dan comes to
      "opening" regardless
      of whether there
      appears to be opening
      or not around Dan, whether frustration
      or fulfillment. Opening
      can be "to" and "as" frustration
      as well as fulfillment.

      I am with you Jutta.

      In this unfulfilled life
      is fulfillment found,
      the daily
      treadmill of desire, loss,
      unhappiness, joy --
      the burst of light is
      "within" "from" and
      *as* "this".

      I am with you.

      There is no beginning or end to it,
      this undisturbed peace.

      It is right here, where the
      beginning is the end,
      that freedom is.

      There is nothing to get to,
      no next step.

      Going through the rounds,
      through the life in
      which living is dying,
      this itself is freedom.

      As I have no next step,
      there is nothing to
      be passed on, nothing
      to continue.

      As I am "here", you are
      "here", there is no
      one not "here", and
      only No-one "here".

      This isn't an idea to
      be held in mind.
      It is the stopping of
      the mind, right now,
      right in the midst
      of this day to day
      human life.


      ...I didn`t
      like to be in a round-about of the mind all the time. I felt sick of
      it. Like hyper intelligent, but useless words.

      Where are you at as a person with feelings, thoughts and emotions?

      Where are the areas in your life where there is hiding, fearing,
      denying and resisting?

      I would love to meet you in your very humaness. Just now I am tired
      of enlightened talk now!!!!

      What are the areas in your "dream" where you are stuck, unhappy,
      unfulfilled???? What does hurt, Sandeep, where are his limits as a
      human being?

      Please, show me your human sides now! For me this is the next step.
      The entering the world of dream again after realizing that it is a
      dream and sharing the humaness........

      Dear Jutta,

      What I hear you describing
      is despair, which is simply
      the result of clinging
      to the fictional
      entity taken
      as reality.

      Who says everyone is to
      be made happy by a book
      or by a technique?

      Who says any book can give

      The truth is very sobering
      although it is very light.

      It is not for everyone, far
      from it.

      It is only for when readiness
      is, that the nonentity-hood
      of being as is, is here.

      No one likes "this".
      No one wants "this".

      People run around trying
      to make each other happy,
      writing inspirational
      books, forming
      helpful programs.

      Let them console themselves,
      let them find ways
      to make "happiness".

      The state of "happiness" will
      pass. Who will see that
      happiness will always pass,
      that programs and books
      can only provide
      passing reassurance?

      The reality of life is
      far to simple for books
      and programs.

      Its simplicity is why
      there is so much running
      around and avoiding.

      I'm not saying anything new, I know.

      I'm typing just because I'm typing.
      If you have read this far, my wish is
      for love and awareness to you
      and all ;-)


      Adi Dan! Adi Dan! We bow to the wisdom of Adi Dan. Like the gentle wind, It
      disperses the clouds and One Sees the Sun Shining Bright and Pure and
      Radiant As Ever.

      Love to all


      Hiya Sandeep,

      Annegret (who is not) really appreciates the amount of effort and
      energy Sandeep (who is not as well, though suffering from hangover,
      "my" feelings for you!) has taken upon to prove that Annegret (who is
      not) could be unloaded from some unpleasant feelings, as eg feeling
      shame of being born German. Thank "you"!

      In answering your question about your own contradictions: Hasn't it
      yet appeared to you that there is no use in this non-volitional world
      to try and save others from any feeling IT wants to feel through

      And if all is THIS, that there is no point in distinguishing between
      "I" and "NOT I"? Strange, you seem to be so clever, but still want
      to have choice or convince others of having choice? How come? This is
      the contradiction this "you" seems to suffer from. What about
      some "choiceless awareness? Good term to prattle about, but to
      practice, really, in daily life, not just in front of keyboard and
      screen? Having someone stepping on your toe?

      That's where it gets interesting for Annegret. How come "we" have
      preferences and thus get trapped in the "i"? And don't
      mis-take this as a real question, Sandeep, and invest too much in
      stubborn German mind of mine that likes its identifications - knowing
      very well it doesn't have to be THAT necessarily!

      Re hangovers: try some water while drinking, in between, not only

      Choicefull greetings


      dear Jivano,

      I read the book from Satyam Nadeen. And the message "You are not the
      doer here!" is not new but it also doesn´t help much...

      I saw freinds of mine becoming very depressive after having read
      Satyam Nadeens book. They put themself in a hopeless state
      afterwards. They didn´t dare to to anything anymore, they
      didn´t feel
      a sense in being alive any more. Ok. that was their reaction. But I
      could see somehow how this "you are not the doer here" puts the human
      mind into a bad shape, into hopelessnes, into a kind of dead waiting,
      unalive, in a victim state. The question arose in them even: "wha to
      live, to engage oneself into the daily live?"

      No, this is not the kind of message I choose. I love more messages
      like: be total, do it now, celebrate, enjoy being human and also
      rearranging the desk chair on the titanic can be enjoyed fully.

      That`s why I love Harry Palmer very much. He is not miserly, he gives
      enlightened toys to humanity, he invites to create to allow awareness
      to create in harmony. To me life is mucch more fun, when there is the
      appreciation of the fact that humans are able to choose.

      Yes, knowing that this is just a dream. But why experience a
      nightmare when there are possibilities to create it into a love-

      love to you, Jivano



      For all that you have said of not being too serious your messages seem so
      serious, but that may just be me.

      I am sure you understood my joke but for those that missed it let me
      explain. Also, it may have come from Jack Kornfield's "A Path with Heart".
      In the joke the house is the body. It is in flames because it is dying as
      are we all. With death rushing to us we should devote all possible attention
      on God, enlightenment, ... . The joke is someone suggesting spending their
      life on something trivial by comparison (as most do).

      And attention on that "God", "enlightenment" which can only be a conceptual
      expression of your innate conditioning, devoting all possible attention to
      that "God" would that not be a triviality?<s>

      this assumes that what you have stated as your belief is true. Do
      you not believe in enlightenment or God?

      No, I do not believe in beliefs.(Osho copied that from me.LOL)


      Physically I take a lump of clay, or mud, or soil or whatever and make a
      beautiful statue, I then further "lend" it, bestow on it divinity and then I
      worship that "divinity" to save my ass.

      is this what you do? Do you not experience the divine directly?

      Good Lord, Neo.

      Did you not get the rhetoricality (is there a word like that?) of that


      And what I do metaphysically, in what way is that different to this

      How can you pay attention to that, which conceives your very sentience which
      in turn gives you the luxury of attention?

      I do not understand.

      All your concepts, beliefs about God, Enlightnement are products of your
      mentation, ie they are nothing but your mental constructs, flowing from your
      innate conditioning and thus to then subsequently seek what your own
      mentation produced in the first place, is physically taking a lump of shit,
      bestowing on it your brand of divinity, and worshipping it to save your
      conceptual ass.

      That is why I succinctly remarked round and round the self created mulberry

      I still do not understand.

      In your sleep dream, one of the characters that you produced in that dream,
      can it look back and say hey that's you who dreamed me up?

      How can the eye see itself?

      In the joke about God swearing, etc., it was not the seriousness, it was the
      untruth about it that fell flat. It was like someone was using the joke to
      justify their swearing because God does and that God is as feeble as us
      because God could not hit someone with a lightening bolt, and a
      justification for anger, attack and killing because God would kill someone
      for using profanity.

      Come on Neo.
      Give a good laugh, if you care to.
      If that joke did not hit you laugh button, hit the del key.

      And seriousness is a disease, the mother of all of diseases.

      It is rare that I hear a good joke as most seem to just put down other
      groups of people of have some lame sexual aspect.

      A joke is always at the expense of somebody.
      And when you can laugh at yourself, hey maaan, you are then deep.

      I am snipping all stuff on Osho and getting on to ACIM which brings a gleam
      in my cyber eyes.
      Just for you information, I was "politely asked to move on" out of the ACIM
      List recently.




      Now allow me a quote. I am a big fan of "A Course in Miracles". This is a
      quote from the Workbook section:
      LESSON 130.

      It is impossible to see two worlds.
      W-130.1. Perception is consistent. 2 What you see reflects your thinking.

      And your thinking but reflects your choice of what you want to see. 4 Your
      values are determiners of this, for what you value you must want to see,
      believing what you see is really there. 5 No one can see a world his mind
      has not accorded value. 6 And no one can fail to look upon what he
      believes he wants.

      Going round and round the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush having been
      created by you, yourself.

      W-130.4. Fear has made everything you think you see.
      2 All separation, all distinctions, and the multitude of
      differences you believe make up the world.
      3 They are not there.

      On what basis is this conclusion of "not there"?
      I am not disagreeing, all I am enquiring is what is the understanding that
      produces this bromide?

      4 Love's enemy has made them up.
      5 Yet love can have no enemy, and so they have no cause, no
      being and no consequence.
      6 They can be valued, but remain unreal.
      7 They can be sought, but they can not be found.
      8 Today we will not seek for them, nor waste this day in
      seeking what can not be found.

      Who is that 'we" which must seek?

      W-130.5. It is impossible to see two worlds which have no overlap of any
      2 Seek for the one; the other disappears.

      With a seeker remaining, the seeker's world remains (whatever that be).
      The cognizer cannot exist with out the cognized and vice versa.

      3 But one remains.
      4 They are the range of choice beyond which your decision cannot go.
      5 The real and the unreal are all there are to choose between, and
      nothing more than these.

      How do you define what is real and what is unreal?
      Is the "definer" of these definitions, real or unreal?


      W-130.8. Begin your searching for the other world by asking for a strength
      beyond your own, and recognizing what it is you seek.

      So how do we recognize what we seek?
      You can only re-cognize what you have apriori cognized.
      And what you have cognized, what will seek about it?

      2 You do not want illusions.

      Who is that 'you" that does not want illusions?
      Is that "not wanter" any less of an illusion?

      3 And you come to these five minutes emptying your hands of all
      the petty treasures of this world.
      4 You wait for God to help you, as you say:

      5 It is impossible to see two worlds. 6 Let me accept the strength God
      offers me and see no value in this world, that I may find my freedom and

      This very illusory phenomenal world with all it's values and "dis-values" is
      the very Nirvan, the very Noumenon, the very Consciousness.

      Ad-nauseam, I repeat
      A wave is an illusion but when you pick it up in your hand, all you get in
      your palm is water.

      To try and see that an illusion has no value for me and hence to be
      rejected, is as much being stuck with that illusion as seeing that it holds
      a lot of value for me and thus to be pursued.

      Nothing to be shunned, nothing to be craved, so that you could make love
      next to that altar and meditate in a whorehouse with equal equanimity.

      "that I may find my freedom and deliverance".

      Seek freedom, and you presuppose you are bound in the first place.
      Till the seeking continues in whichever form, shape or path, the
      pre-supposition remains like your shadow.

      W-130.9. God will be there.
      2 For you have called upon the great unfailing power which will
      take this giant step with you in gratitude.
      3 Nor will you fail to see His thanks expressed in tangible perception
      and in truth.
      4 You will not doubt what you will look upon, for though it is perception,
      it is not the kind of seeing that your eyes alone have ever seen before.
      5 And you will know God's strength upheld you as you made this choice.


      W-130.10. Dismiss temptation easily today whenever it arises, merely by
      remembering the limits of your choice.
      2 The unreal or the real, the false or true is what you see and only
      what you see.
      3 Perception is consistent with your choice, and hell or Heaven comes
      to you as one.

      W-130.11. Accept a little part of hell as real, and you have damned your
      eyes and cursed your sight, and what you will behold is hell indeed.
      2 Yet the release of Heaven still remains within your range of choice,
      to take the place of everything that hell would show to you.
      3 All you need say to any part of hell, whatever form it takes, is simply
      4 It is impossible to see two worlds.
      5 I seek my freedom and deliverance,
      and this is not a part of what I want.

      Neo, do you really see divisiveness in Life?
      And thus the question of the volition of choice.

      Life has to be divisive for choice to exists and hence volition of choice to

      If all is I, what is not-I, from which I can choose?

      Some conceptual musings...




      JUDI and Jokes:

      Physically I take a lump of clay, or mud, or soil or whatever and make a
      beautiful statue, I then further "lend" it, bestow on it divinity and then
      I worship that "divinity" to save my ass.

      is this what you do? Do you not experience the divine directly?

      LOL!! This is priceless!
      Sheesh and double sheesh!!
      Thanks for the laugh guys, keep up the good work! :-0


      Hi Judy

      It has been awhile.

      Glad you had a good laugh but not sure why.


      What is scary is after you have made your lump and invested with
      divinty you find yourself talking to it and then it starts telling
      you how to live your life!

      It is not scary - it is just your creation - and after it tells you
      how to live your life and you are not happy with your life you ask it
      how to become free of this suffering and it tells you to "get rid of
      the mind" or even that there is no "I" in the first place.....

      Dear Neo

      Of course, she has to laugh, for she has recognised she is the self. The
      Jews were the first one to get the message that "I Am" and the message they
      received was not to place anything before me. Not to place any God' before
      me. Anything after me is secondary to me in the sense that it arose out of
      me. But I am the creator of all. First of all, if I create something and
      then forget I am it's creator and I fear my creation and I start to give my
      creations powers and pray to my creation for liberation, I am commonly known
      as a seeker seeking my own source. I am the wave forgetting I am the ocean.

      Now Neo, you state you're awake and if you don't then who are you trying to
      fool? You are the source of your creation and if you're not happy with your
      creation, then it's a sad day. Do you understand Neo? It's all okay.
      You're awake, you know the source from that which you arose and you are that
      source and you are that arising and you are that which arose. Therefore you
      arose. Not on the third day, but in the ever-present endless this-ness. Fo
      you realise Neo, there is no now. For there to be a now, there has to be a
      future and apast. And you realise Neo, in the awake state that take one of
      this holy trinity out,past, now, future, and the whole ball game is over.

      Now Neo, beautiful Neo, Sri Judi is a woman. Remember this, you're dealing
      now with woman. The fullness of woman and woman is receptive, she is
      feminine, she is divine, she is wisdom, she's all that, that which you long
      for. REceptivity, aliveness, wonder, innocence, an ever non-ceasing divine
      presence of eternal divinity, for she is what "I Am".

      Neo, you divine creation of wonder, living exquisite, eternal,
      never-ceasing eternal divine eloquence. Woman is the vessel. She is the
      holy grail that we need to pour ourselves into. Self pouring itself into
      self. For no other reason, escept it is the law. And you know what the law
      is Neo. The law is you shall place no Gods before me and worship false
      idols. For anything placed before me is secondary to me. Not only
      secondary, it is after, it is after me. And anything that is after me, I am
      the creator of that after. So Neo, unless you're particularly fascinated
      with "afters", then don't you feel it is best to remain as before. All that
      is before "after". And while you're ingesting that lot, beautiful one, the
      divine expression of innocence, purity and exquisite joy, isn't it wonderful
      that the whole space is actually light. There's no such thing as darkness.
      It simply does not exist unless it comes after me, and then it only exists
      if I then fear that which comes after me. For I am the eternal endless

      Gorgeous delightful Neo, that's why Judi laughs, for she is woman. And
      woman bleeds; as Christ bled from the Cross in the utter and complete
      revelation that my home where I have always searched for, I am already in
      it. I've never not been in it, and as I bow down, not in subserviance but
      in exquisite joy in the recognition that that which I am, that which you
      are, exquisite Neo, and all the other sparks of light at NDS are that which
      keeps me divinely drunk and the recognition that my heart is a place of
      prayer, and the taxman now wants me to do my taxes.

      Love Pou


      I never said I was awake and I am not trying to fool anyone. You make a lot
      of assumptions of what I realize. In this that we call the world there is no
      past and no future, only the ever present now.

      When did Judy become Sri Judy and what does Sri mean? Is Judy a woman? Other
      than some anatomic differences is a woman different than a man? This may or
      may not be correct but is politically incorrect in this moment. On the
      internet there are no bodies so here in this space is there any difference?
      Judy is all I long for?

      I don't know, but it seems that you are projecting your own thoughts on to

      Well your email was most interesting. I did find it strange and it did make
      me laugh. I am not sure of the point. Perhaps it had none.

      Divine beauty Neo,

      Beautiful one, you also never said you were asleep. And the idea of fooling
      anyone is just another romantic notion. Others? Oh, such a delightful
      miscarriage of justice to have others and all there is, is me. And every
      time I go to look for me, I can never find myself. So I search here and I
      search there. And I find there is no me and there are no others. All there
      is is the delightful search for no-one and no thing just searching..
      searching for the searcher...

      When we're speaking about the world, divine Neo, of course we're talking
      about the outward going mind, another one of my merry creations that exists
      in a temporary abyss. First I project it, then I reject it, and all said
      and done I introject it. Such as the life of the world.

      Would the court arise.

      Judi, you are hereby charged in this court of law with stating that you are
      God, a punishment in the most severe of punishments of being cast into the
      eternal endless now , of being wrecked in the ocean of bliss. And having to
      stand in the existence of loving, lover, and all that is loved.

      This court now sentences you forever to love.

      Gorgeous, divine creation, of that which was before after Bhagwan Sri Neo.
      If Judi has decided to stop leaving the shade and endlessly entering into
      the hot sun in search of shade, then you and I can simply relax knowing
      there is one less clown seeking work here in this circus of the mind.

      Beloved Neo, have you retired from the circus of the mind? Or are you
      seeking employment? If only I could project my thoughts onto me. What an
      introjected projected thought that would be! What a glorious celebration if
      I could only find "me".

      The wonder of the totality of all, I have failed you miserably. To only
      have you laugh for a moment leaves me feeling utter and total despair.

      You say you're not sure of the point, well delightful dancer, the reason a
      mystery is a mystery, is because it's a mystery. If you know the point it's
      no longer a mystery is it? So secretly you don't really want to know the
      point do you? Because aren't we all in awe of the mystery? But the movies
      playing and no-one's watching it.

      Mystified Pou

      Osho sez: "Be a joke unto yourself!"

      Osho not only said it, he proved it! (:-).


      Sarlo knows this one. Well, if he doesn't he should do, after all its his
      job to know!

      I'll try and repeat the story as best as I know it.

      One day in the ashram, during an evening discourse an enlightened Japanese
      woman approached the podium that Sri Rajneesh spoke from.

      Sri Rajneesh threw flowers - rose petals - over this delightful exquistely
      beautiful enlightened Japanese woman and Rajneesh left the auditorium.

      The next day

      this delightfuly enlightened Japanese woman wrote to the Master sayin:

      "Why do you see yourself higher than I am by remaining up on the podium.
      Cannot you see we're one? Do you still see yourself as special?

      The Master wrote back to the delighful little Japanese woman (not verbatim)

      "Of course, there are not degrees of self, but what you have realised is
      only the positive side of enlightenment. In other words there is still
      somebody there having the enlightenment . The real work is to go beyond
      this state. This no state state. To the enegative state of enlightenment
      where there is no 'i' having anything.

      Please forgive me Sarlo, as you may have copyright clearance, you may be
      able to share what was actually said word for word.

      Sri Rajneesh in the early days said (not verbatim):

      "If you think it was difficult, the journey of awakening, then the journey
      from the positive state of enlightenemtn to the negative state of
      enlightenment is ten times more difficult.

      Pink Pou

      POLAR, XAN & DAN

      For any non-duality creation to exist there must be its opposite-
      duality. Hence non-duality doesn´t exist, only duality is real.

      You can bring light into darkness but not the other way round-
      therefore only darkness is always there.All is darkness and light
      just comes along to play around a little bit on the black screen.
      Isn´t that what we are doing here in this Saloon? It could be
      called the Duality Saloon-but than there´d be nothing to rub up
      against I guess.

      ~ Yes, only duality exists in the dimension of duality.

      And yet, there is such a thing as 'stepping out' of the realm
      of opposites altogether. It is a shift in consciousness in which
      darkness and light both appear as expressions of energy
      in a boundless sky of beingness.

      No kidding.


      Dear Xan and Polar,
      Enjoying your dialogue.

      Your give and take echoes these words
      said about Jesus:
      "The Light walked among the darkness,
      and the darkness knew it not."

      Light played lightly in the darkness.

      Ah, the unknowing darkness -- when
      it stops trying to know, there
      is only light.

      The darkness is the light, allowing
      itself to play (as this universe)
      -- when not-knowing is seen
      as how the light "allows" its



      every year my parents remind me the 29 of September:
      "Michele it is your name-day, the day of Archangel Michael,
      congratulations, the vibrant power of Michael is in
      you...don't forget...praise to God..."

      As a child I was fascinated by a small picture of the
      Archangel Michael defeating the "devil". The power of light
      and the dark side. Strength and understanding versus lie
      and unconsciousness.

      Over the years I found more interpretations of the picture
      and the understanding goes deeper:

      The sword as a symbol of conscious awareness, the devil or
      dragon as the "dark side", I heard a friend say, it is not
      about killing the devil but to bring conscious awarness to
      all those parts of the dragon in "me" that are unconscious,
      about all "I should...or I should not", "I must...or must
      not", "I have to..." Killing the devil: That's what the
      catholic church wants to do with the so called "evil": I
      have tried it as a child - it didn't functione. The result:
      guilt and shame, shame and guilt. So, it is not about
      killing but about ascencion, bringing light into darkness.

      Today I recognise the power of Archangel Michael as an act
      of utter compassion. Compassion with the sword. Compassion
      cutting through darkness. Never ending compassion.
      What has this to do with the NDS? I am missing that kind of
      compassion. The world we live in is a dragon that is
      becoming bigger and bigger, the dragon has seduced the
      enlightend ones, the state of "no I" can/may be as selfish
      as any other state of the mind, more than ever the
      force/strenght/power of St. Michael is needed to raise
      consciousness, living force of life, ...

      ~ I like what you have said here, Michele.

      I recognize that rejecting, excluding and fighting
      the 'dark side' is not the nature of love,
      which is all-inclusive.

      Not only that, I have met very bright 'devils'
      and dark, velvety angels.

      Compassion leads me to give up
      trying to sort out good and bad,
      and simply let Love love it all.



      shit, I have never found an inner truth, for which
      I can stand. I found no inner voice, saying what to
      do, no inner authority, no inner god.

      So this is your truth. Hence no need to find any other.
      This 'Inner Voice' thing is just a saying, a way to
      express something which does not come from outside
      (as opinions of others, wish to be mom's beloved,
      morale or anything else which comes directly
      OR INDIRECTLY from others). For me it's that
      "what I find right to do". What I find right to
      say. What I don't find right to do or to say.
      Even if others are totally against it.
      Even if others are not going to love me for
      (to love somebody 'for' something is not love
      anyway but a form of manipulation in the name
      of love).

      That's it.

      Whenever I hear something coming from within, whenever I know exactly
      what to do, it has always come from the past.

      To know what I feel right to do at the moment
      does not mean that I am sure - not at all.
      But including this uncertainty - I know what
      I feel right to do. And if I don't know what
      to do, than it's right to say (to myself or
      to others) "I don't know".

      I have changed my live, and I am very lucky in the moment. Everything
      falls into its right place. It feels as if there was an inner voice,
      saying what to do.

      Yes. That's obviously your truth -
      according to my feeling.

      But if I really look, there remains nothing. I know, but I don't know
      from where I know.

      There's nothing more to it.

      So how do you guys manage to stand for your own truth?

      I can only speak for myself:
      The same way as you are doing it now.
      Saying what feels right for me.
      Nothing more.

      From where does it come?

      I don't know. If I would know the why and where
      it would not be what it is, because then it would
      have a reason and not simply be my truth.

      Please tell me. Is there something I miss?

      Not that I could think of.
      But for me you seem to have something too much:
      the opinion that it should be otherwise,
      the idea how it should be,
      the hope to 'hear' a voice from wherever
      (from heaven?).
      This opinions, ideas, hopes and expectations
      are just that: opinions, ideas, hopes and
      expectations. And the truth - your truth -
      is independant from that, obviously.

      Many thanks

      No need to thank me, I'm just responding
      to the truth of your statement out of my truth
      - with what feels right for me to say.


      Greetings to you, Harsha,

      let me answer to your questions in
      a slightly different order, then perhaps
      I can be understood better.

      For your information, in my view, drugs, alcohol,
      and cigarettes are poisonous to the body.
      Sorry everyone. No offense. I don't mind if you get
      drunk and lose a few more brain cells. Will bring
      you closer to the nondual!

      From my point of view, there are also drugs which
      work primarily on the mind alone. Words and ideas
      for example can be used to create illusions or
      believes or can be used to enlarge illusions
      or believes, which are basically against life.

      Nietsche's concept of a 'superhuman' was used
      in this way by the Nazis.

      'Enlightenment' was/is used in this way by many
      people in the spiritual scene.

      'Non-duality' can be used in this way all too

      When my house is on fire, I wouldn't like to have
      the help of a nondual fireman, reciting in front
      of the bruning house:

      Everything is just energy.
      The house is Energy,
      The fire is Energy.
      Everything is just perfect.
      Just let the house burn down,
      the whole situation will balance itself.

      Of course everything will balance itself,
      the seeker is bound to stop the seeking effort
      some day or the other. His sheer force to find
      all the answers to his problems with his mind,
      will exhaust the mind eventually - if not in this
      life, then in the next, or in the next...

      But perhaps, the outcome of the situation will be it,
      that he creates so much suffering for himself
      with all the ideas and concepts about spirituality,
      that he commits suicide or is finally in such a
      painfull situation, that he HAS to let a spiritual
      friend correct his notions.

      And if you think, there was no suffering, then we
      certainly live in different worlds.

      So one HAS to look at the cause of ones sufferings,
      one HAS to. That's what pain is about, isn't it?
      To give attention to what is causing the pain.

      My answer would it be:
      Because everybody is crazy enough already.
      Hi Jivano. You may be right but I am not sure what
      you are saying in relationship to what I wrote.

      You were making statements which run down to:
      "every teacher is true,
      there is no false or true one."

      If one is in such a state, where this is true,
      no teacher would be needed at all.

      So if I speak about a teacher, I speak about
      a phase in the personal development, where
      one is suffering from own false concepts and
      ideas and wishes and so on. And you answered
      with a statement from a point of view, where
      this is allready overcome.

      This creates crazyness.

      For my feeling Bhagwan was the first one, to use
      his Truth as a poison for the mind of his disciples.
      He fed the mind through endless lectures about
      states beyond the mind (which were certainly HIS
      truth). But it was not the reality of most of
      his Sannyasins, and he knew that perfectly.
      He used it as a device. As a bait to bring people
      into connection with spirituality.

      But times have changed. This bait is no longer
      needed. It's time to take the step. And that
      must be - in my opinion - to start with one's
      own reality.

      Am I enlightened ?
      Am I free from greed, jealousy, envy, wanting ... ?
      Am I satisfied with my life ?
      Is this really meditation or my doing ?
      Am I really in non-duality, or am I still chosing?

      Stuffing peoples mind with something, which is
      not in accordance with their actual reality,
      is manipulation, is making them grazy, is given
      them illusions.

      Jivano-Ji. I extend my sympathies and love.
      Don't worry about becoming more greedy.
      Maybe it just comes with age.

      That's a nice statement, I like it.
      I don't worry about becoming greedy.
      My development is not in my hands anyway.

      BUT this is my truth
      AFTER intense bodywork to awaken the Kundalini.
      AFTER endless Satsangs where I was not allowed to chose.
      AFTER emotional catarthis within a setup discipline.
      AFTER 10.000 hours teaching under the direct supervision
      of a teacher.

      And it was worth it, that's not the point.
      But anybody using ideas when they are not her or
      his personally experienced truth, will go into
      the wrong direction.

      These insights are given after experiences,
      they cannot be copied from one person to the next.
      One tree cannmot copy the fruits of another tree.

      First the price - then the priceless.
      Not vice versa.

      Jivano-ji, I am at a loss here. Are you an engineer,
      programmer, or an accountant?

      Computer programmer. .o)

      Down with these spiritual drug dealers!
      These fraudulent bastards! Do your thing Jivano-Ji.
      Call the spiritual police and chase them out of town!
      (:-). We actually agree, it seems to me! Now we need
      a consensus on who the frauds are! I am getting my
      list ready. I copied it from Dan! (:-).

      Let's start with the Indian gurus then!
      And show me the Indian who's not a guru! (:o)

      When practical circumstances permit, I love to
      talk about life, consciousness, love, Self-Realization,
      etc. I have been moved by my own suffering
      (horrific at times) and that of others.
      If I was not doing it through internet,
      I would be writing and responding to letters.
      I do it because I love to do it for now and
      circumstances permit me.

      I like to do verbal fights - and therapists
      and gurus are activating my blood pressure.



      I read of the lament of some who do;
      Who have heart
      And pain
      And refuse to give up

      To refuse to sink
      To flippant
      To superficial
      To artificial

      Those who see
      That up is not down
      Down is not up
      Bad is not good;

      To you I bow.

      A ship in stormy sea
      Safely tethered at anchor
      Chain links connected
      I honor that chain;

      Each link is safety
      From the violence of the storm
      And the great anchor
      Itself inviolate,

      Your knowing is true
      Your heart does pain
      Your eyes do cry
      The storm is real;

      Death, pain, deprivation
      Are realities
      Like wolves circling
      A locked and barricaded house,

      Strength and courage
      Perseverance and commitment
      Foresight and wisdom
      All are needed

      No matter if someone says:
      "There is no wolf!
      Come out and play!"
      The anchor remains firm,

      This is safety,
      This is security,
      This is the best to do
      Do the best that can be done,

      You who do.

      Know, you who do,
      There are others who
      Like dolphins swim
      In the storm freely,

      And in that freedom
      Is their safety,
      Even as they see your anchor
      And wonder why it is there,

      They may assume
      To know you and
      They may tell you
      You are like them;

      'If only you knew,
      You would love the wolf
      And you would not be eaten
      And would need no anchor';

      And you might say to them:
      "Foolish fish, beware of sharks,
      Do you not know
      Of death and pain?"

      Know that the one in the house
      Will resist breaking of locks
      By one who assumes
      That all will enjoy the storm,

      What is safe to one
      Is death to the other
      Yet each is dear
      Sister and brother,

      Perhaps it could be said
      That each assumes a way
      Which the other does not;
      Which way will prevail?

      Those who insist on one way only
      Make war on everyone
      Everyone will suffer!
      Winners and losers in that war,

      This we have seen;
      We know it as fascism:
      "All must be one way"
      and "Those who deviate will die".

      Now, we all have the need
      To remain free of fascism;
      So to have this freedom
      We must give freedom to each other,

      This we have seen.
      And we have also seen
      That the roots of fascism
      Are 'spiritual' by design,

      The blithe and glib acceptance
      Of the 'Good by the good'
      Makes two families
      Always at war;

      I prefer war
      To fascism
      My father taught me that;
      Yet he did not see

      The war within himself
      Between his internal fascist
      And his own freedom
      And this is what he taught me to see,

      By his example of blindness
      I am able to know the difference;
      Able in the most practical way
      To detect a tyrant,

      Who with gun or sweetness
      Coerces freedom into prison,
      Of conformity or else
      Hell on Urth is the fate;

      So to resist tyrants,
      Is to keep freedom
      Won by knowing tyrants;
      By their fruits we know them.

      So! When you hear this said:

      "You suffer because
      You are incompetent;
      Let me be your Master
      To end your suffering",

      If you resist,
      You must do it yourself.
      With no Master to do it for you,
      It is your responsibility;

      If you do not resist,
      You are responsible
      For all that follows;
      Do not blame the Master!

      "I was only following
      The Master's orders!"
      Does not absolve
      You of your decisions.

      "You do not know the way"
      "You are blind, and one
      Who is blind does harm,
      Let me teach you to see"

      Such is the lure
      Offer to the good people
      To give up themselves
      To the unknown;

      To become like dolphins
      To be free in the storm
      To ignore the wolf,
      Such is the promise;

      Know the game
      See how it works
      Save yourself and everyone
      A repeat of a bad drama.

      Remember; the roots
      Of fascism
      Are spiritual by design;
      Based in morality,

      Ethics, values, and
      Even principles of 'non-harm';
      Even an army of 'non-harmers'
      Is still an army,

      An army of Christians
      An army of Muslims
      An army of vegetarians
      An army of nondualists

      Creeds breed feelings,
      Living in feeling creeds,
      Can lead to deeds
      And then someone bleeds.

      My thoughts to those who do...

      ==Gene Poole==

      My greetings to the dolhins
      and the sharks who swim freely
      in the storm of non-doing.

      There is no envy to join
      your freedom, because I know
      the sea will break my chains
      and anchors in due time.
      Who knows why my ship is
      anchored in rationality?
      As long as there is a chance
      that this ship can be used to
      be a resting place for others
      who are still fearing the
      sea with all it's beautiful
      monsters of irrationality,
      I myself don't want it to
      be any different than it is.


      I do - but not Yahoo!


      The Source

      How does one look madness in the eyes
      and still say
      I see myself in your heart, soul, your spirit

      How does one hold the hand of infinite suffering
      and not find
      that our skin has bee<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
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