NDS highlights for Saturday, Sept 30
- View SourceJIVANO:
Nonduality means to have no choice whatsoever.
The only freedom there is.
For any non-duality creation to exist there must be its opposite-
duality.Hence non-duality doesn´t exist,only duality is real.
You can bring light into darkness but not the other way round-
therefore only darkness is always there.All is darkness and light
just comes along to play around a little bit on the black screen.
Isn´t that what we are doing here in this Saloon?It could be
the Duality Saloon-but than there´d be nothing to rub up against I
NEO and SANDEEP:
There seems to be 2 primary views of the world: The world is science
it's basis physical and that consciousness is an unnecessary
second is that the world is based on consciousness, that there is only
large mind and that all the perceptions are projections of that mind.
seem to embrace the first. What is your view of the nature of the
world? Just curious.
In fact Neo, it is the other way around.
Maybe there is a lack of clarity between Consciousness and being
Being conscious is always being conscious of "something".
Consciousness is just a conceptual terminology, sufficiently vague
enough(and hence can contain wahtever meanings that the human mind can
up) to denote, to point, to That which-IS.
All is Consciousness and the physical, phenomenal world is an
expression, manifestation of what can conceptually only be called pure
I use the "movements" in the Scientific world, because while Science
fundamentally based on a false premise, it's basic tenet is the
No apriori assumption in observing.
And if you really trace the history, Science basically keeps
mystic's expressions about that which-IS.
The term "projection" is incorrect in so far as it's usual connotation
Words, language are only sounds (if spoken) and sights (if written)
a mutual agreement as to it's meaning.
Do not have the mutual agreement, and you have an Eskimo speaking
whatever) to a pure blue-eyed, blonde Aryan German.
That is why the sentence in the Bible "First there was the word" is
For a word to exist, there has to be one who gives a meaning to it and
has to be another to agree or disagree to that meaning.
Intrinsic duality from first base.
It should be first there was the sound and instantenously phenomena
To express a feeling totally (especially if we judge it
negative) we need an environment where we can be sure,
that no harm is done to us and others. I agree on that.
But just look at how few we need to feel hurt.
Just some letters in a computer email and one
feels hurt? That's an indication that the pain
must be already in us in a suppressed form.
And as we have no mutual agreement here, to 'hurt'
in this way, we have the mutual agreement here
not to provoke each others suppressed feelings.
If we had no suppressed feelings, we would not
need such an agreement.
This email list is not the right place to uncover
these feelings totally, but it's the right place
to point at them, IMO.
Secondly, in the beginning of such a work with
unconscious material, expressing it (in a safe
environment) is needed. One cannot just look
at the unconsciuous feelings, because they
are totally unconscious in the beginning.
After such an expression-training, when the
conditional blocks (in mind and body) are weaker,
the feelings will surface by themselves.
But not before. If it was otherwise, the
unconscious would have already surfaced
and hence be no longer unconscious.
Bhwagwan for example had a lot of heavy encounter
groups in his ashram in the beginning.
Many other schools have houses where the
seekers can live and express themselves - under
supervision and guidance of course.
For example around the Miracle of Love,
which is really a soft way, there are
a couple of such houses. And many other
teachers give longer retreats or intensive
groups wher one could go deeper.
If that was not neccessary, why the hassle?
Spiritual methods are useful to an extent and they are prescribed
according to the inclinations of people. They are meant to help you
your own Beauty.
Spiritual practices are meant to make you aware of your overwhelming
seeping out everywhere.
The final barrier to Seeing the Seer, or Being the Seer, is an
Grace allows for self-surrender to the Divine and this bridge is
The Seer, The Seen,
and the Process of Seeing merge Here and the Self-Existent, Ever
Reality Dominates in all its Nakedness. The ancients called this
Sat-Chit-Ananda. Existence-Knowledge-Bliss. It is Existence Knowing It
in Pure Bliss.
This Sat-Chit-Ananda Is Nityam (Eternal) and Poornum (Whole or
Although This Reality that You Are Is Always Present, it is obscured
conflicts and sufferings of the mind.
That is why spiritual practice and Satsangha are important. They help
calm the mind.
Sat-Chit-Ananda, That You Are is Known Clearly in Nirvikalpa Samadhi,
absorption of the mind.
When all the inner conflicts and suffering have subsided and mind
consciously is absorbed, that is Nirvikalpa.
Unconsciously the mind is absorbed every night in deep sleep, but the
wakes up the same.
Conscious absorption of mind in Reality of the Self happens in
After that one recognizes the Reality as the Self in varying
joy, suffering, conflicts, etc.
Nonduality is not in conflict with Duality.
Spiritual practices are not in conflict with Reality.
If you love your God with all your heart and mind and soul, that it
indicates Grace in your life.
Self is the Ultimate Simplicity and the Ultimate Clarity. It Is, Ever
Present, Ever Awake, Still, Alone, and Complete. It cannot be
is Truly Who You Already Are. It has no parts. It is Fully Whole. That
You Really Are. Whole. Can you accept that? That acceptance will help
the path. That is the beginning of the end. The ending is contained in
ANNEGRET & SANDEEP:
S: Nationality is a myth as nationhood is a myth existing in the
of a map
book and in the minds of demented politicians who then manipulate
If nationality is a myth, national identity is a myth.
And thus national shame or national pride is a myth.
A: Okay, but still we agree that we live on a big round thing called
planet Earth, don't we? Or is it nothing but a dream and I have put
the wrong mindset on?
S: I suggest so, but you need to "know" so and that apperception can
A pondering, if you care to.
In your deep sleep state(where even dreaming stops) and take it from
Medical Science, a state of "deep" sleep happens every night, where
is temporarily absent, what happens to Annegret's world, with all it's
cruelties, horrors, violence, Annegret's relationships, values,
peace, beauty, serenity, what happens to all that?
With "Annegret" absent, Annegret's "world" vanishes?
Without the cognizer "Annegret", the cognized (Annegret's world)
Hence thus it is seen not to have an independent existence of it's onw
Hence thus it is unreal, illusion.
Mere words, mere concepts Annegret, the apperception of this truth has
hapen in Annegret, otherwise, all that is just conceptual ND crap.
A: Sorry, Sandeep, I just can't get along with being programmed so
easily. Aren't you saying here that I am programmed anyway and it's
the "I" that makes me feel shame and thus creates a personal hell?
And your non-acceptance in this moment, is also as per that
Next moment, who knows?
which is the program then that makes me choose the "Non-I"??
S: You cannot choose Non-I .
Because in that very choosing of Non-I, who is choosing, but the "I"
which has learnt new language of Non-I, No-Mind, Nirvan,
awakening or whatever.
That is why it is an acausal, non-volitional occurrence in which
"me-Annegret" thinks or does not think, believes or does not believe,
accepts or does not accept, does or does not do, is quite immaterial.
A: How come that I am having feelings at all, be it shame or
S: Because that is indeed what Consciousness wants to achieve through
conceptual entity labelled "Annegret". in this moment?
Now if apperception can truly occur of this, can you imagine the
release that will take place of the load that you have been carrying
The load, that having been born in Germany(you did not have a choice
that ) to pure German parents (you did not have a choice in that), you
assumed the ,mantle of shame of what the earlier German generations
either in gassing a Jew or looking the other way when that was
Imagine the tremendous, sense of freedom that can occur in Annegret.
And as I shared earlier, if indeed something is driving you to do
for the shame, look at who you wish you could "gas" right now in your
if you could get away with it, or look the other way when you see
of intolerance in front of you.
Do whatsoever comes up, but just know that there is "doer" in Annegret
whatever is getting done.
There may be the occurrence of shame in Annegret, but the there is no
"shamer' in Annegret.
A: You're saying I am programmed anyway but have deliberately taken
ownership of something "not-me" in order to feel a personal hell?
A: Okay, got me!
I figure it's the violence in me slumbering deep down, not allowed to
surface, that makes me project it outwardly and then fight what I see
S: All within a phenomenal, conceptual context (I think I will get a
all my postings which says this, getting tired of having to repeat
again and again. Can anybody help, how to do this? )
Within a phenomenal context,
Next time look at yourself,
When you are calm, collected, serene, your world is a world of
When you are angry, stressed, disturbed, your world is a world of
The same boss, the same boyfriend, the same bus-driver, the same
the shopping mall, the same landlord, are just changing reflections of
changing inner space.
A: Now, can you also tell me how to express violence?? Do I have to
express it in order to integrate it? I can express anger, yes,
but violence? Tell me, how do you deal with it?
S: Wrong question or at least you are asking the wrong guy.<s>
Anger, hatred, violence will get expressed or not get expressed in a
about which you Annegret have no choice about.
You will kill a cotton cushion (ie bash it out of shape) or go out and
a human being, whatever, if that is what your programming is scripted.
What is needed is understanding (and that to occur is non-volitional).
The understanding of "personal doership".
Unravell any of your decison, your action ie keep going backwards as
was the previous thought/action, keep going back and back and I
you, if you are brutally honest and the process deep enough, you will
at one "occurrence" on which you had no control about.
That non-volitional occurrence was the genesis which triggered the
chain of thoughts/action leading up to this particular current
decison/action under investigation.
Do this for all your decisons/actions and within just few days you
arrive at the understanding that none of your decisons/actions were
actions, your decsions.There is no "doer" in Annegret and yet doing
happening moment to moment to moment through Annegret.
If there is no doer in Anngret, and this apperception has taken place,
that there is "doer" in another when the the "other" is reacting
to Annegret within a personal rlationship or an impersonal
No "doer" in the other, whether that response of the the "other' is
to Annegret or unpleasant to Annegret.
No doer "here", no doer "there".
Only Consciosuness functioning through Annegret and through the
sentient and non-sentinet objects which constitute this phenomenal
Now from this gestalt,
Who will you hate?
Who will you envy?
Who will you be jealous about?
What will you seek?
What will you suffer?
What shame will you carry?
Whose salvation is in question?
What issues can remain?
What questions can arise?
What concepts have to remembered, followed, debated?
What doing is left?
Who is to do that?
Mind you living in such gestalt, pleasure and pain may subsequently
Somebody replies, "Sandeep by your words, you have saved my life, I
about to commmit suicide", a sense of pleasure arises.
Pain may arise.(Sandeep, you are the biggest bag of crock, I have come
But there is no longer anybody taking delivery of either.
And thus there is no pride nor is there any suffering.
Whatever needs to be said to you Annegret has now been said.
Now whether apperception will take place or not?
GENE and SANDEEP:
The assumption that one must have an 'attitude' or 'mood' has
obviously also escaped examination, but is next on agenda! When that
one is gone, freedom is that taste of ambiguity which is infinite
possibility... and then someone asks, "But what about order and
It is not out of order but out of chaos, are stars born.
And the issue in that question Gene, is really "but what about MY
and MY sense of order".
The phenomenal world may be illusory, unreal, but is in perfect
moment to moment to moment.
Gene, the only issue that keeps coming back and back, is whether the
conceptual entity is a dreamed character?
If you believe not, then yes the question of order and it's place in
order is most crucial to that me-entity?
If yes, then what can be an issue left fro the me-entity?
Indeed can the "me-entity continue to exist?
The ego as an identification with a particulat body-mind complex may
not continue, but no longer is there a me-entity in operation.
And till the "me-entity" exhausts itself in the futility of all
this order, Personal Hell and Personal Heaven will keep happening.
The wave thinks it is and has the volition to be, do and thus is
to the oscillations of the heights of the crest and the crash of the
As water, the crest is I, the depth is I.
What oscillations could I possibly have?
Prior \Pri"or\, a.
First, precedent, or superior in the order of cognition,
reason or generality, origin, development, rank, etc.
It is the thought that comes before the thought that comes before the
thought, which determines the thought that is here now, as we think
S: Superb Gene.
And thus you expose the non-voliotionality of all thoughts.
And since action is an external actualization of the thought, which is
itself seen to be non-volitional, what action can be attributed to the
conceptual entity as a doer?
And if there is no "doer" in me, there cannot be 'doer" in you.
What issue can be left after this apperception?
G: Or it is the impression that came before this impression, that
determines how this impression impresses.
S: Same dynamics.
G: To understand this ( and I warn that this can be maddening to try
understand!) is to arrive at the headwaters of cognition, so to speak.
S: And that is why it cannot be understood.
The eye can see everything but cannot see itself.
Self realization is an oxymoron statement or a self contradictory
matter what particular song and dance you adopt to move towards self
Yes apperception may occur, totally acausal, and non-volitional as far
the biological computer is concerned.
But you know Gene, you don't get to have followers and disciples and
whole "power trip" if you spout non-volitionality.
Just be, and allow whatever is happening to happen, does not get you a
You need to be handing out dikshas, meditations, mantras, malas, some
old sex-energy exchanges, some Kundalini power surges through the
be able to quote the Scriptures and a nice set-up is up and about,
And yet if that is what gets to occur, it's only Consciousness having
laugh at itself.
SARAH, BRUCE AND MICHAEL:
reading all the mails about World War II and swearing I got such a
longing to just sit silently, smell the autumn-fresh air mixed with
cowdung, touch some horses, since I am so blessed to sit here amongst
the Gods of Nature during the weekend.
I was thinking what is it deep down in the human psyche that drives
to torture each other and be sadistic assholes as the German Nazis
demonstrated or other movements down through the history since ever.
Why do animals not do that? Are they more developed?
Ah! Good question. Lions appear to 'hate' hyenas. Male lions have been
known to run down and kill hyena alphas (both male and female) just
kill them - not eat them!
Elephants have been known to tease rhinos by picking them up and
pushing them around!
Dogs have been known to kill chickens just for the 'fun' of doing it!
Only humans have been known to kill other humans (and animals) over
Actually, Sarah, "higher"
animals do practice war and
torment each other -- both
between species (hyenas vs.
lions when prey is scarce)
and within them (chimpanzees
fight tribe vs. tribe) --
they just don't do it with
the industrialized scale and
efficiency of the Nazis or
the viciousness and casual
brutality of Stalin era
Soviets. Animals, follow
their instincts to compete
and flourish, humans take
such instincts and amplify
them with the power of
thought into atrocity -- so
now we have nuclear missiles
and bio-engineered plagues!
If hyenas or chimps had
human-class brain power and
dexterity, I suspect they
would do very much the same!
Besides resistance to feel that part of being human what came up is
that there could be a connection with sex. - As I see it sex and
are deeply connected and polar opposites. So, is it possible that
is a deep hidden (or not so hidden) sexual fascination about killing
and torturing, mixed with lust for power?
And is it so that we as human beings are doomed to experience all of
the polar opposite creations (like f.e. tyrant or victim) just for
sake of having had the experience of duality to the max?
Perhaps we are doomed! Perhaps we are free! Without the drama, would
there be a play
We as God wanted and created this duality. Now we have it.
So just lean back and enjoy the show? Only for my understanding the
show is not always funny, it is also fucking deep and painful.
So the only thing I can do is to feel my helplessness and hope I can
What is this thing we call language?
Where there are words, there is misunderstanding. Where there is
misunderstanding there is suffering. Where there is sufferring there
love. The sword kills the body. Words kill the mind. One must
doubly dead in The Sacred Heart of Compassion and transcend love in
POU responds to Gene:
Gene you wrote me:
'That is why I say that the sword cuts both ways'.
Gene, I enjoyed your lengthy and well presented argument. It's very
that I print off postings, but more than one of yours has made it
I'm particularly fascinated in light of some of your comments re the
motivations of the unconscious patterns for an individual. Many years
realized that as individuals awaken, they also awaken in accordance
where and how they as individuals consciously are. I do not feel to
awake is an automatic qualification to be 'conscious human being'.
believe is a time honored process.
I feel each individual can only be in accordance to their personal
understanding at the time of awakening 'Wie viel ist aufzuleiden' How
suffering there is to get through!
Initial awakening is also a great opportunity to experience denial.
Rajneesh has spoken much on this topic as with many others.
Ramana, Suzuki Roshi, Papaji... A person suddenly released from the
contructs of identification, a 'mental prison' called 'mind' often
and can experience dramatic consequences due to sudden liberation of a
You may be aware that many schools of enlightenment do not allow a
teach until one has deeply cultivated their understanding of
Here in Europe, there is a mass awakening of people that one might
the recognition 'that I'm not the thinker of my thoughts', 'that I am
In the very early 90s a friend of mine came back from being with a
called Papaji in Lucknow in India. It was obvious from the moment I
into his eyes that something had transpired for him while he was
entire use of language radically changed.
It was certainly fascinating watching my friend speak from the
state' or what he called the enlightened state, and also continued to
witness his clear demonstration of identifying with the arising of
particular emotions in the bodymind complex. Several of us watched
it was obvious, even though myself not being "enlightened", there was
massive identification taking place with this person. Of course it
up seriously with all of my ideas and concepts of what I "thought" the
state was, how it should look, and how one should act. Dead from the
The bodymind complex psyche still contained massive programming. A
programming of self-condemnation, unworthiness, seeking approval and
identification with the arising of shame.
My point being here Gene, is that I strongly believe with the new
phase of young enlightened people that along with this arises a whole
possibility to bring new conscious awareness at a both individual and
collective level. If anyone has the time, they really only need to
some of the writings written by others who have walked the path: Lord
Buddha, Zen masters, Ramana Maharshi, Rajneesh, and a huge number of
powerful realizers to consciously realise much work is required after
awakening. I understand from your post this is also your insight.
Gene, I have immense respect for your presence along with others. I
your ability to express yourself with intelligence and yet with
My basic position or structured belief system that I adhere to, is
unfolding of events in day to day life is predetermined. By
don't mean for an individual for I believe that there is only
Choice, my concept is one identifies with that which arises, or
For me I place the emphasis on the work in consciousness in bringing
awareness to where identification is taking place with that which is
predetermined. If suffering to be had, then suffering it is to be. If
rich is to be had, then to be rich it is.
The ability to witness is where I believe the work in consciousness
Right up to that final moment of death which is always now..
one of your sentences, and I quote "others have not as yet discovered
this choice is possible".
You may have read Victor Frankl's book 'Mans search for meaning' but
the whole message of this book is that choice is absolutely and
available under any circumstances, as he so painfully experienced in
KZ's of Nazi Germany.
Life is a dream that is never recalled when the sleeper
I did a lot of bodywork, therapy and emotional carthathis!! After
being long time with Osho, realizing that "I" am not the body neither
the mind, "I" did 3 years therapy training with Veeresh, a lot of
encounter and marathon groups. The point where i decided to join
Veeresh`s work was a conflict with a woman I loved. She showed me
that it was not the end.....
There was a lot of benefit out of these intence groups in the
training!!! It helped a lot to free the body-mind system from
repressed energy and emotions. I love to shout and scream from time
to time, still I enjoy the this kind of release!!!
And I always loved the Zen stories about Masters who were
energetically responding to their disciples not only via words.
Why should we have an emotional body if it would be enough just to
think and talk???????
I have still this concept of wholeness, yes, impersonal wholeness but
the deep desire to appreciate every human part what so ever it is, a
concept of transformation, of lifting unconscious things into the
known, the conscious....
The bodysystem needs movement and the emotional body needs
expression. We could have stayed as "awareness" just being formless
trying to experience the formless.
But we choosed a body to experience the form, the limitation, the
feelings, the emotions, the thoughts, the pain, the bliss, the
suffering, the resistance, the happiness, the unhappiness....
awareness experiencing itself in the limited way, trying to become
conscious about itself....
what a circus, what a play, what a leela....
I always loved the free expression of whatever arose in a protected
space ,the body felt so light and energetic afterwards ,but the focus
all the time on god. Like this an opening was created what allowed
more love and openess with strangers ,a state of naturalness.
Take a look.
>Yes, in the same way the tongue
> > A Zen riddle: "Can you taste your own tongue?"
> Can the eye see itself?
can taste itself!
This dream is real. This real is dream.
These things exist or they don't.
The real question is can the mind think itself?
Only if it isn't actually there! Otherwise, where
does it come form?
GENE & SANDEEP:
Sandeep, thank you for your utterly flat-honest post, in which you
said, in a very accurate criticism of the Holy Temple Of Science:
[The error of science is to assume... ]
>No apriori assumption in observing.Yes! It is good to see that someone besides 'me' understands this
primary error. And as you know, this error permeates all of human
'reasoning'. No matter how it is tried, scientists cannot remove the
human observer (or apriori assumption in observing). (nuclear bombs
S: Indeed Gene.
And it is the same issue with the dream. To apperceive the
sleep-dream is easy but to perceive that the conceptual entity
itself is part of the total objectivization, and thus waking state
is yet a dream, with dreamed characters, is the transcendence.
Do we live or are we lived?
This is a very very important question, of no importance whatsoever.
The utter terror I felt, when I first realized myself to be a mere
puppet, was eventually replaced by vast respect for the puppeteer.
Since that time, I have loosened up considerably, and "I" have been
given many more 'privileges', so now my understanding is this: 'The
lived is the liver'.
And it is not the "me-Gene" or "me-Sandeep".
What is, lets not conceptualize,
even if "What Is" itself is a conceptualization.
Actually, it is more like this: I thought I was real, but then saw
myself to be a totally fictional construct, created out of the debris
of the world-dream. This is what I now call 'identity'.
Next, I realized that my own 'puppet-making talent' (the ability to
make an identity and to live through it, eg, vicariously, to the
point of losing myself in the puppet-show) was or is an emanation or
reflection of that which was living through me, and that "I" as a
'realized person' was actually the puppet of another.
S: If the realization is, apperception is, can the "puppet" remain?
Yes the identification with the biological computer labelled Gene
(appears to be continuing <s>) but can the dichotomy between the
the "puppeteer" remain any more?
Obviously Gene, if you do have an answer to that, the dichotomy
thus it is so for you.
If there is no answer, it really means there is no one to answer.
All you then can go is Ladeedadeee.
Or even Dobeeee Bobeeee Dooooo.
G: This is when the terror struck. I was filled with lightning and
exploded by thunder, a booming voice spoke words in a language, which
words blew the remaining grains of precious trash into the wind of
infinity, I was empty.
S: I was empty Gene, or was emptiness the state at that moment?
In the recollection, in the memory of it, the I comes in, in that
only the experiencing IS, isn't it?
G: In 'that emptiness' the story was being told, I 'saw' or better,
'knew' a loving hand with a paintbrush creating, an artist beyond,
beyond compare, and I knew myself to be a creation of that, and
created to truly share of all of what is created, a generosity which
truly broke me heart ("For Me???"). I realized my grief was as sweet
as the sweetest wine, and I gave it to the artist, who used it before
my eyes, to paint the ideal world, and to my shock, this is it, I
live in it gratefully, but also without the human self-censoring
sickness, which was my previous disease, and the armature around
which my 'original identity' had been molded... that self-censoring
was my 'first impression', and through that impression I learned to
be good and bad.
Gone, gone, gone.
S: Dobeeee Dobeeee Dooooo
I was working in the hot sun with a rake today
and talking with my friend John Duff about NDS.
I issued out a few strongly felt words about some
people and he says ...."You sound judgmental."
This was the point at which I wanted to take the
rake to him. He is supposed to be on my side. Ha Ha.
It is really all so marvelous. Seeing the identification and
letting go, seeing it again and letting go. Realizing that
I don't have to take the next step and justify it. I can
see it for what it is and let it go.
We had a wonderful conversation at lunch about negative
emotions. Some folks said they shouldn't be expressed
and others said they should be expressed and others
said it didn't matter. What was distilled at the end was
that the Work is just that; a method of working. What
Gurdjieff did was to try things out for awhile and then
move on to something else. It was a way of working.
And, as in so many other things, process became
product and now it really is a mess. I try on frameworks
and work with them awhile. Right now I am trying
on Claudio Naranjo and his typology in Character
and Neurosis and Eli Jaxon Bear in Enneatypes. It
is allowing for me to see things differently. But if I make
this a gospel, I will again have made process into product
and be stuck or identified.
I end with the feeling that being with essence friends and
working and talking and sharing and relating and being
open feels right to me. Tomorrow is a Movements day.
We will work all day with Movements which require
attention and letting go and all sorts of other things. The
emotions are strong as the music is beautiful and prayerful
and also dervishes which are invigorating. We are social
animals. Bonding is essential. This is an element between
a guru and a disciple. I believe that having these connections
even after the point where one needs a guru to shock one
is invaluable. Group energies are generated and feed something
higher. It is that something which is fed internally and in group
settings which will end war; not shame. Shame is just one
step in the cycle.
Don't you guys like to sit around the campfire and share
the meaning and workings of life with like minds and hearts?
There is a desire to connect which overrides the desire to
A Zen riddle: "Can you taste your own tongue?"
Can the eye see itself?
"The flower becomes the nose in order to smell its own fragrance."