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NDS highlights for Saturday, Sept 30

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  • Melody
    JIVANO: Nonduality means to have no choice whatsoever. The only freedom there is. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ POLAR: For any non-duality creation to
    Message 1 of 1 , Oct 1, 2000
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      JIVANO:

      Nonduality means to have no choice whatsoever.
      The only freedom there is.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      POLAR:

      For any non-duality creation to exist there must be its opposite-
      duality.Hence non-duality doesn´t exist,only duality is real.
      You can bring light into darkness but not the other way round-
      therefore only darkness is always there.All is darkness and light
      just comes along to play around a little bit on the black screen.
      Isn´t that what we are doing here in this Saloon?It could be
      called
      the Duality Saloon-but than there´d be nothing to rub up against I
      guess.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      NEO and SANDEEP:


      Neo:

      There seems to be 2 primary views of the world: The world is science
      and at
      it's basis physical and that consciousness is an unnecessary
      byproduct.
      The
      second is that the world is based on consciousness, that there is only
      one
      large mind and that all the perceptions are projections of that mind.
      You
      seem to embrace the first. What is your view of the nature of the
      world? Just curious.


      SANDEEP:

      In fact Neo, it is the other way around.

      Maybe there is a lack of clarity between Consciousness and being
      conscious.
      Being conscious is always being conscious of "something".

      Consciousness is just a conceptual terminology, sufficiently vague
      enough(and hence can contain wahtever meanings that the human mind can
      throw
      up) to denote, to point, to That which-IS.

      All is Consciousness and the physical, phenomenal world is an
      objective
      expression, manifestation of what can conceptually only be called pure
      subjectivity.

      I use the "movements" in the Scientific world, because while Science
      is
      fundamentally based on a false premise, it's basic tenet is the
      essence of
      religiousness.
      No apriori assumption in observing.

      And if you really trace the history, Science basically keeps
      validating the
      mystic's expressions about that which-IS.


      The term "projection" is incorrect in so far as it's usual connotation
      goes.

      Words, language are only sounds (if spoken) and sights (if written)
      based on
      a mutual agreement as to it's meaning.
      Do not have the mutual agreement, and you have an Eskimo speaking
      Lapp(or
      whatever) to a pure blue-eyed, blonde Aryan German.

      That is why the sentence in the Bible "First there was the word" is
      all
      cock.
      For a word to exist, there has to be one who gives a meaning to it and
      there
      has to be another to agree or disagree to that meaning.
      Intrinsic duality from first base.

      It should be first there was the sound and instantenously phenomena
      was
      born.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      JIVANO:

      To express a feeling totally (especially if we judge it
      negative) we need an environment where we can be sure,
      that no harm is done to us and others. I agree on that.

      But just look at how few we need to feel hurt.
      Just some letters in a computer email and one
      feels hurt? That's an indication that the pain
      must be already in us in a suppressed form.

      And as we have no mutual agreement here, to 'hurt'
      in this way, we have the mutual agreement here
      not to provoke each others suppressed feelings.
      If we had no suppressed feelings, we would not
      need such an agreement.

      This email list is not the right place to uncover
      these feelings totally, but it's the right place
      to point at them, IMO.


      Secondly, in the beginning of such a work with
      unconscious material, expressing it (in a safe
      environment) is needed. One cannot just look
      at the unconsciuous feelings, because they
      are totally unconscious in the beginning.

      After such an expression-training, when the
      conditional blocks (in mind and body) are weaker,
      the feelings will surface by themselves.
      But not before. If it was otherwise, the
      unconscious would have already surfaced
      and hence be no longer unconscious.

      Bhwagwan for example had a lot of heavy encounter
      groups in his ashram in the beginning.
      Many other schools have houses where the
      seekers can live and express themselves - under
      supervision and guidance of course.
      For example around the Miracle of Love,
      which is really a soft way, there are
      a couple of such houses. And many other
      teachers give longer retreats or intensive
      groups wher one could go deeper.

      If that was not neccessary, why the hassle?

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      HARSHA:

      Spiritual methods are useful to an extent and they are prescribed
      according to the inclinations of people. They are meant to help you
      accept
      your own Beauty.
      Spiritual practices are meant to make you aware of your overwhelming
      Beauty
      seeping out everywhere.
      The final barrier to Seeing the Seer, or Being the Seer, is an
      extremely
      subtle one.
      Grace allows for self-surrender to the Divine and this bridge is
      crossed.
      The Seer, The Seen,
      and the Process of Seeing merge Here and the Self-Existent, Ever
      Present
      Reality Dominates in all its Nakedness. The ancients called this
      Self-Knowing
      Sat-Chit-Ananda. Existence-Knowledge-Bliss. It is Existence Knowing It
      Self
      in Pure Bliss.
      This Sat-Chit-Ananda Is Nityam (Eternal) and Poornum (Whole or
      Complete).
      Although This Reality that You Are Is Always Present, it is obscured
      by the
      conflicts and sufferings of the mind.
      That is why spiritual practice and Satsangha are important. They help
      to
      calm the mind.
      Sat-Chit-Ananda, That You Are is Known Clearly in Nirvikalpa Samadhi,
      after
      absorption of the mind.
      When all the inner conflicts and suffering have subsided and mind
      consciously is absorbed, that is Nirvikalpa.
      Unconsciously the mind is absorbed every night in deep sleep, but the
      person
      wakes up the same.
      Conscious absorption of mind in Reality of the Self happens in
      Nirvikalpa
      Samadhi.
      After that one recognizes the Reality as the Self in varying
      perceptions of
      joy, suffering, conflicts, etc.
      Nonduality is not in conflict with Duality.
      Spiritual practices are not in conflict with Reality.
      If you love your God with all your heart and mind and soul, that it
      self
      indicates Grace in your life.

      Self is the Ultimate Simplicity and the Ultimate Clarity. It Is, Ever
      Present, Ever Awake, Still, Alone, and Complete. It cannot be
      attained. It
      is Truly Who You Already Are. It has no parts. It is Fully Whole. That
      is
      Truly Who
      You Really Are. Whole. Can you accept that? That acceptance will help
      you on
      the path. That is the beginning of the end. The ending is contained in
      the
      beginning.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      ANNEGRET & SANDEEP:

      S: Nationality is a myth as nationhood is a myth existing in the
      pages
      of a map
      book and in the minds of demented politicians who then manipulate
      you.

      If nationality is a myth, national identity is a myth.
      And thus national shame or national pride is a myth.


      A: Okay, but still we agree that we live on a big round thing called
      planet Earth, don't we? Or is it nothing but a dream and I have put
      the wrong mindset on?


      S: I suggest so, but you need to "know" so and that apperception can
      only happen.

      A pondering, if you care to.

      In your deep sleep state(where even dreaming stops) and take it from
      me and
      Medical Science, a state of "deep" sleep happens every night, where
      Annegret
      is temporarily absent, what happens to Annegret's world, with all it's
      cruelties, horrors, violence, Annegret's relationships, values,
      symbols of
      peace, beauty, serenity, what happens to all that?

      With "Annegret" absent, Annegret's "world" vanishes?

      Without the cognizer "Annegret", the cognized (Annegret's world)
      cannot be.
      Hence thus it is seen not to have an independent existence of it's onw
      Hence thus it is unreal, illusion.

      Mere words, mere concepts Annegret, the apperception of this truth has
      to
      hapen in Annegret, otherwise, all that is just conceptual ND crap.


      A: Sorry, Sandeep, I just can't get along with being programmed so
      easily. Aren't you saying here that I am programmed anyway and it's
      the "I" that makes me feel shame and thus creates a personal hell?


      S: Yes.

      And your non-acceptance in this moment, is also as per that
      programming.
      Next moment, who knows?


      A: So
      which is the program then that makes me choose the "Non-I"??


      S: You cannot choose Non-I .

      Because in that very choosing of Non-I, who is choosing, but the "I"
      itself
      which has learnt new language of Non-I, No-Mind, Nirvan,
      enlightenment,
      awakening or whatever.

      That is why it is an acausal, non-volitional occurrence in which
      whatever
      "me-Annegret" thinks or does not think, believes or does not believe,
      accepts or does not accept, does or does not do, is quite immaterial.

      A: How come that I am having feelings at all, be it shame or
      whatever?


      S: Because that is indeed what Consciousness wants to achieve through
      the
      conceptual entity labelled "Annegret". in this moment?

      Now if apperception can truly occur of this, can you imagine the
      tremendous
      release that will take place of the load that you have been carrying
      all
      this time?

      The load, that having been born in Germany(you did not have a choice
      in
      that ) to pure German parents (you did not have a choice in that), you
      have
      assumed the ,mantle of shame of what the earlier German generations
      did,
      either in gassing a Jew or looking the other way when that was
      happening.

      Imagine the tremendous, sense of freedom that can occur in Annegret.

      And as I shared earlier, if indeed something is driving you to do
      something
      for the shame, look at who you wish you could "gas" right now in your
      life
      if you could get away with it, or look the other way when you see
      evidence
      of intolerance in front of you.

      Do whatsoever comes up, but just know that there is "doer" in Annegret
      doing
      whatever is getting done.

      There may be the occurrence of shame in Annegret, but the there is no
      "shamer' in Annegret.


      A: You're saying I am programmed anyway but have deliberately taken
      ownership of something "not-me" in order to feel a personal hell?


      S: Yes.

      <SNIP>

      A: Okay, got me!
      I figure it's the violence in me slumbering deep down, not allowed to
      surface, that makes me project it outwardly and then fight what I see
      OUT THERE!


      S: All within a phenomenal, conceptual context (I think I will get a
      banner for
      all my postings which says this, getting tired of having to repeat
      this
      again and again. Can anybody help, how to do this? )

      Within a phenomenal context,
      Next time look at yourself,
      When you are calm, collected, serene, your world is a world of
      calmness,
      serenity.
      When you are angry, stressed, disturbed, your world is a world of
      stress,
      disturbance.

      The same boss, the same boyfriend, the same bus-driver, the same
      teller in
      the shopping mall, the same landlord, are just changing reflections of
      your
      changing inner space.


      A: Now, can you also tell me how to express violence?? Do I have to
      express it in order to integrate it? I can express anger, yes,
      hatred,
      but violence? Tell me, how do you deal with it?


      S: Wrong question or at least you are asking the wrong guy.<s>

      Anger, hatred, violence will get expressed or not get expressed in a
      manner
      about which you Annegret have no choice about.

      You will kill a cotton cushion (ie bash it out of shape) or go out and
      kill
      a human being, whatever, if that is what your programming is scripted.

      What is needed is understanding (and that to occur is non-volitional).

      The understanding of "personal doership".
      Unravell any of your decison, your action ie keep going backwards as
      to what
      was the previous thought/action, keep going back and back and I
      guarantee
      you, if you are brutally honest and the process deep enough, you will
      arrive
      at one "occurrence" on which you had no control about.

      That non-volitional occurrence was the genesis which triggered the
      whole
      chain of thoughts/action leading up to this particular current
      decison/action under investigation.

      Do this for all your decisons/actions and within just few days you
      will
      arrive at the understanding that none of your decisons/actions were
      your
      actions, your decsions.There is no "doer" in Annegret and yet doing
      keeps on
      happening moment to moment to moment through Annegret.

      If there is no doer in Anngret, and this apperception has taken place,
      know
      that there is "doer" in another when the the "other" is reacting
      responding
      to Annegret within a personal rlationship or an impersonal
      relationship.

      No "doer" in the other, whether that response of the the "other' is
      pleasant
      to Annegret or unpleasant to Annegret.

      No doer "here", no doer "there".

      Only Consciosuness functioning through Annegret and through the
      billion of
      sentient and non-sentinet objects which constitute this phenomenal
      world.

      Now from this gestalt,

      Who will you hate?
      Who will you envy?
      Who will you be jealous about?
      What will you seek?
      What will you suffer?
      What shame will you carry?
      Whose salvation is in question?
      What issues can remain?
      What questions can arise?
      What concepts have to remembered, followed, debated?
      What doing is left?
      Who is to do that?

      Mind you living in such gestalt, pleasure and pain may subsequently
      arise.

      Somebody replies, "Sandeep by your words, you have saved my life, I
      was
      about to commmit suicide", a sense of pleasure arises.

      Pain may arise.(Sandeep, you are the biggest bag of crock, I have come
      across)

      But there is no longer anybody taking delivery of either.

      And thus there is no pride nor is there any suffering.

      Whatever needs to be said to you Annegret has now been said.
      Now whether apperception will take place or not?
      Who knows?
      Who cares?<s>

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      GENE and SANDEEP:

      G:
      The assumption that one must have an 'attitude' or 'mood' has
      obviously also escaped examination, but is next on agenda! When that
      one is gone, freedom is that taste of ambiguity which is infinite
      possibility... and then someone asks, "But what about order and
      control???"


      S: HA
      It is not out of order but out of chaos, are stars born.

      And the issue in that question Gene, is really "but what about MY
      control
      and MY sense of order".

      The phenomenal world may be illusory, unreal, but is in perfect
      balance,
      moment to moment to moment.

      Gene, the only issue that keeps coming back and back, is whether the
      conceptual entity is a dreamed character?

      If you believe not, then yes the question of order and it's place in
      that
      order is most crucial to that me-entity?

      If yes, then what can be an issue left fro the me-entity?

      Indeed can the "me-entity continue to exist?

      The ego as an identification with a particulat body-mind complex may
      or may
      not continue, but no longer is there a me-entity in operation.

      And till the "me-entity" exhausts itself in the futility of all
      seeking for
      this order, Personal Hell and Personal Heaven will keep happening.

      The wave thinks it is and has the volition to be, do and thus is
      subjected
      to the oscillations of the heights of the crest and the crash of the
      depths.

      As water, the crest is I, the depth is I.

      What oscillations could I possibly have?


      G:
      Prior \Pri"or\, a.
      First, precedent, or superior in the order of cognition,
      reason or generality, origin, development, rank, etc.

      It is the thought that comes before the thought that comes before the
      thought, which determines the thought that is here now, as we think
      we think.


      S: Superb Gene.
      And thus you expose the non-voliotionality of all thoughts.
      And since action is an external actualization of the thought, which is
      itself seen to be non-volitional, what action can be attributed to the
      conceptual entity as a doer?
      And if there is no "doer" in me, there cannot be 'doer" in you.

      What issue can be left after this apperception?


      G: Or it is the impression that came before this impression, that
      determines how this impression impresses.


      S: Same dynamics.


      G: To understand this ( and I warn that this can be maddening to try
      to
      understand!) is to arrive at the headwaters of cognition, so to speak.


      S: And that is why it cannot be understood.
      The eye can see everything but cannot see itself.

      Self realization is an oxymoron statement or a self contradictory
      goal, no
      matter what particular song and dance you adopt to move towards self
      realization.

      Yes apperception may occur, totally acausal, and non-volitional as far
      as
      the biological computer is concerned.

      But you know Gene, you don't get to have followers and disciples and
      the
      whole "power trip" if you spout non-volitionality.

      Just be, and allow whatever is happening to happen, does not get you a
      following.

      You need to be handing out dikshas, meditations, mantras, malas, some
      good
      old sex-energy exchanges, some Kundalini power surges through the
      third eye,
      be able to quote the Scriptures and a nice set-up is up and about,
      running.

      And yet if that is what gets to occur, it's only Consciousness having
      a good
      laugh at itself.


      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      SARAH, BRUCE AND MICHAEL:


      SARAH:

      Dear all,
      reading all the mails about World War II and swearing I got such a
      longing to just sit silently, smell the autumn-fresh air mixed with
      cowdung, touch some horses, since I am so blessed to sit here amongst
      the Gods of Nature during the weekend.

      I was thinking what is it deep down in the human psyche that drives
      us
      to torture each other and be sadistic assholes as the German Nazis
      demonstrated or other movements down through the history since ever.

      Why do animals not do that? Are they more developed?


      MICHAEL READ:

      Ah! Good question. Lions appear to 'hate' hyenas. Male lions have been
      known to run down and kill hyena alphas (both male and female) just
      to
      kill them - not eat them!

      Elephants have been known to tease rhinos by picking them up and
      pushing them around!

      Dogs have been known to kill chickens just for the 'fun' of doing it!

      Only humans have been known to kill other humans (and animals) over
      ideas!


      BRUCE:

      Actually, Sarah, "higher"
      animals do practice war and
      torment each other -- both
      between species (hyenas vs.
      lions when prey is scarce)
      and within them (chimpanzees
      fight tribe vs. tribe) --
      they just don't do it with
      the industrialized scale and
      efficiency of the Nazis or
      the viciousness and casual
      brutality of Stalin era
      Soviets. Animals, follow
      their instincts to compete
      and flourish, humans take
      such instincts and amplify
      them with the power of
      thought into atrocity -- so
      now we have nuclear missiles
      and bio-engineered plagues!
      If hyenas or chimps had
      human-class brain power and
      dexterity, I suspect they
      would do very much the same!



      SARAH:

      Besides resistance to feel that part of being human what came up is
      that there could be a connection with sex. - As I see it sex and
      death
      are deeply connected and polar opposites. So, is it possible that
      there
      is a deep hidden (or not so hidden) sexual fascination about killing
      and torturing, mixed with lust for power?

      And is it so that we as human beings are doomed to experience all of
      the polar opposite creations (like f.e. tyrant or victim) just for
      the
      sake of having had the experience of duality to the max?

      MICHAEL:

      Perhaps we are doomed! Perhaps we are free! Without the drama, would
      there be a play


      SARAH:
      We as God wanted and created this duality. Now we have it.
      Full-stop.
      So just lean back and enjoy the show? Only for my understanding the
      show is not always funny, it is also fucking deep and painful.

      So the only thing I can do is to feel my helplessness and hope I can
      surrender.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      WHITE WOLF:

      What is this thing we call language?

      Where there are words, there is misunderstanding. Where there is
      misunderstanding there is suffering. Where there is sufferring there
      is
      love. The sword kills the body. Words kill the mind. One must
      become
      doubly dead in The Sacred Heart of Compassion and transcend love in
      search
      of Love

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      POU responds to Gene:



      Gene you wrote me:

      'That is why I say that the sword cuts both ways'.

      Gene, I enjoyed your lengthy and well presented argument. It's very
      rare
      that I print off postings, but more than one of yours has made it
      through
      the printer.

      I'm particularly fascinated in light of some of your comments re the
      motivations of the unconscious patterns for an individual. Many years
      ago I
      realized that as individuals awaken, they also awaken in accordance
      to
      where and how they as individuals consciously are. I do not feel to
      be
      awake is an automatic qualification to be 'conscious human being'.
      That I
      believe is a time honored process.

      I feel each individual can only be in accordance to their personal
      understanding at the time of awakening 'Wie viel ist aufzuleiden' How
      much
      suffering there is to get through!

      Initial awakening is also a great opportunity to experience denial.
      Shree
      Rajneesh has spoken much on this topic as with many others.
      Nisargadatta,
      Ramana, Suzuki Roshi, Papaji... A person suddenly released from the
      contructs of identification, a 'mental prison' called 'mind' often
      does
      and can experience dramatic consequences due to sudden liberation of a
      sort.

      You may be aware that many schools of enlightenment do not allow a
      person to
      teach until one has deeply cultivated their understanding of
      awakening.

      Here in Europe, there is a mass awakening of people that one might
      call,
      the recognition 'that I'm not the thinker of my thoughts', 'that I am
      that'.

      In the very early 90s a friend of mine came back from being with a
      gentleman
      called Papaji in Lucknow in India. It was obvious from the moment I
      looked
      into his eyes that something had transpired for him while he was
      there. His
      entire use of language radically changed.

      It was certainly fascinating watching my friend speak from the
      'enlightened
      state' or what he called the enlightened state, and also continued to
      witness his clear demonstration of identifying with the arising of
      particular emotions in the bodymind complex. Several of us watched
      this and
      it was obvious, even though myself not being "enlightened", there was
      massive identification taking place with this person. Of course it
      rubbed
      up seriously with all of my ideas and concepts of what I "thought" the
      awake
      state was, how it should look, and how one should act. Dead from the
      neck
      down!

      The bodymind complex psyche still contained massive programming. A
      programming of self-condemnation, unworthiness, seeking approval and
      massive
      identification with the arising of shame.

      My point being here Gene, is that I strongly believe with the new
      current
      phase of young enlightened people that along with this arises a whole
      new
      possibility to bring new conscious awareness at a both individual and
      collective level. If anyone has the time, they really only need to
      read
      some of the writings written by others who have walked the path: Lord
      Buddha, Zen masters, Ramana Maharshi, Rajneesh, and a huge number of
      other
      powerful realizers to consciously realise much work is required after
      awakening. I understand from your post this is also your insight.

      Gene, I have immense respect for your presence along with others. I
      honour
      your ability to express yourself with intelligence and yet with
      delicate
      vulnerability.

      My basic position or structured belief system that I adhere to, is
      that the
      unfolding of events in day to day life is predetermined. By
      predetermined I
      don't mean for an individual for I believe that there is only
      'Consciousness'.

      Choice, my concept is one identifies with that which arises, or
      witnesses.


      For me I place the emphasis on the work in consciousness in bringing
      awareness to where identification is taking place with that which is
      already
      predetermined. If suffering to be had, then suffering it is to be. If
      being
      rich is to be had, then to be rich it is.


      The ability to witness is where I believe the work in consciousness
      lies.
      Right up to that final moment of death which is always now..

      one of your sentences, and I quote "others have not as yet discovered
      that
      this choice is possible".

      You may have read Victor Frankl's book 'Mans search for meaning' but
      if not,
      the whole message of this book is that choice is absolutely and
      totally
      available under any circumstances, as he so painfully experienced in
      the
      KZ's of Nazi Germany.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      JERRY offered:

      Life is a dream that is never recalled when the sleeper
      awakes.

      --Mark Strand

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      JUTTA:

      I did a lot of bodywork, therapy and emotional carthathis!! After
      being long time with Osho, realizing that "I" am not the body neither
      the mind, "I" did 3 years therapy training with Veeresh, a lot of
      encounter and marathon groups. The point where i decided to join
      Veeresh`s work was a conflict with a woman I loved. She showed me
      that it was not the end.....

      There was a lot of benefit out of these intence groups in the
      training!!! It helped a lot to free the body-mind system from
      repressed energy and emotions. I love to shout and scream from time
      to time, still I enjoy the this kind of release!!!

      And I always loved the Zen stories about Masters who were
      energetically responding to their disciples not only via words.

      Why should we have an emotional body if it would be enough just to
      think and talk???????

      I have still this concept of wholeness, yes, impersonal wholeness but
      the deep desire to appreciate every human part what so ever it is, a
      concept of transformation, of lifting unconscious things into the
      known, the conscious....
      The bodysystem needs movement and the emotional body needs
      expression. We could have stayed as "awareness" just being formless
      trying to experience the formless.
      But we choosed a body to experience the form, the limitation, the
      feelings, the emotions, the thoughts, the pain, the bliss, the
      suffering, the resistance, the happiness, the unhappiness....

      awareness experiencing itself in the limited way, trying to become
      conscious about itself....

      what a circus, what a play, what a leela....

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      CARLA:

      I always loved the free expression of whatever arose in a protected
      space ,the body felt so light and energetic afterwards ,but the focus
      all the time on god. Like this an opening was created what allowed
      more love and openess with strangers ,a state of naturalness.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      MANCHINE:

      Koan time!

      Take a look.

      >
      >
      > > A Zen riddle: "Can you taste your own tongue?"
      >
      > Yes.
      > Can the eye see itself?
      >

      Yes, in the same way the tongue
      can taste itself!

      This dream is real. This real is dream.

      These things exist or they don't.

      The real question is can the mind think itself?

      Only if it isn't actually there! Otherwise, where
      does it come form?

      Kundalini anyone?

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      GENE & SANDEEP:


      G:
      Sandeep, thank you for your utterly flat-honest post, in which you
      said, in a very accurate criticism of the Holy Temple Of Science:

      [The error of science is to assume... ]

      >No apriori assumption in observing.


      Yes! It is good to see that someone besides 'me' understands this
      primary error. And as you know, this error permeates all of human
      'reasoning'. No matter how it is tried, scientists cannot remove the
      human observer (or apriori assumption in observing). (nuclear bombs
      notwithstanding!)


      S: Indeed Gene.
      And it is the same issue with the dream. To apperceive the
      sleep-dream is easy but to perceive that the conceptual entity
      itself is part of the total objectivization, and thus waking state
      is yet a dream, with dreamed characters, is the transcendence.

      Do we live or are we lived?


      G:
      This is a very very important question, of no importance whatsoever.

      The utter terror I felt, when I first realized myself to be a mere
      puppet, was eventually replaced by vast respect for the puppeteer.
      Since that time, I have loosened up considerably, and "I" have been
      given many more 'privileges', so now my understanding is this: 'The
      lived is the liver'.


      S: Yes.
      And it is not the "me-Gene" or "me-Sandeep".
      What is, lets not conceptualize,
      even if "What Is" itself is a conceptualization.


      G:
      Actually, it is more like this: I thought I was real, but then saw
      myself to be a totally fictional construct, created out of the debris
      of the world-dream. This is what I now call 'identity'.

      Next, I realized that my own 'puppet-making talent' (the ability to
      make an identity and to live through it, eg, vicariously, to the
      point of losing myself in the puppet-show) was or is an emanation or
      reflection of that which was living through me, and that "I" as a
      'realized person' was actually the puppet of another.


      S: If the realization is, apperception is, can the "puppet" remain?

      Yes the identification with the biological computer labelled Gene
      continues,
      (appears to be continuing <s>) but can the dichotomy between the
      puppet and
      the "puppeteer" remain any more?

      Obviously Gene, if you do have an answer to that, the dichotomy
      remains and
      thus it is so for you.
      If there is no answer, it really means there is no one to answer.

      All you then can go is Ladeedadeee.
      Or even Dobeeee Bobeeee Dooooo.

      LOL.



      G: This is when the terror struck. I was filled with lightning and
      exploded by thunder, a booming voice spoke words in a language, which
      words blew the remaining grains of precious trash into the wind of
      infinity, I was empty.


      S: I was empty Gene, or was emptiness the state at that moment?
      In the recollection, in the memory of it, the I comes in, in that
      moment
      only the experiencing IS, isn't it?


      G: In 'that emptiness' the story was being told, I 'saw' or better,
      'knew' a loving hand with a paintbrush creating, an artist beyond,
      beyond compare, and I knew myself to be a creation of that, and
      created to truly share of all of what is created, a generosity which
      truly broke me heart ("For Me???"). I realized my grief was as sweet
      as the sweetest wine, and I gave it to the artist, who used it before
      my eyes, to paint the ideal world, and to my shock, this is it, I
      live in it gratefully, but also without the human self-censoring
      sickness, which was my previous disease, and the armature around
      which my 'original identity' had been molded... that self-censoring
      was my 'first impression', and through that impression I learned to
      be good and bad.

      Gone, gone, gone.


      S: Dobeeee Dobeeee Dooooo

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      MARCIA:


      I was working in the hot sun with a rake today
      and talking with my friend John Duff about NDS.
      I issued out a few strongly felt words about some
      people and he says ...."You sound judgmental."
      This was the point at which I wanted to take the
      rake to him. He is supposed to be on my side. Ha Ha.

      It is really all so marvelous. Seeing the identification and
      letting go, seeing it again and letting go. Realizing that
      I don't have to take the next step and justify it. I can
      see it for what it is and let it go.

      We had a wonderful conversation at lunch about negative
      emotions. Some folks said they shouldn't be expressed
      and others said they should be expressed and others
      said it didn't matter. What was distilled at the end was
      that the Work is just that; a method of working. What
      Gurdjieff did was to try things out for awhile and then
      move on to something else. It was a way of working.
      And, as in so many other things, process became
      product and now it really is a mess. I try on frameworks
      and work with them awhile. Right now I am trying
      on Claudio Naranjo and his typology in Character
      and Neurosis and Eli Jaxon Bear in Enneatypes. It
      is allowing for me to see things differently. But if I make
      this a gospel, I will again have made process into product
      and be stuck or identified.

      I end with the feeling that being with essence friends and
      working and talking and sharing and relating and being
      open feels right to me. Tomorrow is a Movements day.
      We will work all day with Movements which require
      attention and letting go and all sorts of other things. The
      emotions are strong as the music is beautiful and prayerful
      and also dervishes which are invigorating. We are social
      animals. Bonding is essential. This is an element between
      a guru and a disciple. I believe that having these connections
      even after the point where one needs a guru to shock one
      is invaluable. Group energies are generated and feed something
      higher. It is that something which is fed internally and in group
      settings which will end war; not shame. Shame is just one
      step in the cycle.

      Don't you guys like to sit around the campfire and share
      the meaning and workings of life with like minds and hearts?
      There is a desire to connect which overrides the desire to
      be right.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Gene:
      A Zen riddle: "Can you taste your own tongue?"


      Sandeep:
      Yes.
      Can the eye see itself?


      ANDREW:

      "The flower becomes the nose in order to smell its own fragrance."
      (Jnaneshwar)
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