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NDS Highlights - Sunday, September 24 2000

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  • Manchine
    DISTORTIONS. MICHELE, JIVANO MICHELE yes, I also feel the importance of looking at/into the dark side again and again, seeing that it is not outside but
    Message 1 of 1 , Sep 25 10:19 PM
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      DISTORTIONS. MICHELE, JIVANO


      MICHELE
      yes, I also feel the importance of looking at/into
      the "dark side" again and again, seeing that it is
      not "outside" but recognising it as "in me".

      JIVANO:
      What astonishes me is that especially among the "seekers",
      the people "meditating" and going to "Truthmeetings"
      (Satsangs) there seems to be less readiness to accept
      their negative emotions then - say - among normal
      (non-spiritual) people.

      Everybody (excuse me, I like to exaggerate to make
      my points), well nearly everybody in this scene is
      pretending to be already holy, living his life in
      Ahimsa, eating (and meeting?) only vegetables and so on.

      We copy the behaviour of the teacher/master and pretend
      to be where she/he is, without having gone through the
      process they have been thru.

      Mimicry = spiritual conditioning = spiritual ego
      on top of the normal conditioning.

      But when you scratch a little (and do I need to say,
      that I like to scratch?), if you say something against
      their believes, against 'their' master, then all
      this wounderful heart energy vanishes into a sour
      smile, the inner barricades go up, and you hear
      sentences like "you have a strange energy, you should
      do some dynamic meditation", "that is YOUR way"
      and "perhaps this is not the right place for you".

      MICHELE:
      To take and accept hate, anger, dismissal etc. seems more difficult
      than to accept peace, love, joy. I find myself again and again
      resisting the monster in me.

      JIVANO:
      There is no monster in you. You are it.

      MICHELE:
      If I stop resisting and allow myself to
      feel it totaly, the feeling dissolves immediatly or looses at least
      the energy that is bound in restistance. The atention is then free to
      go elsewhere. And the pain and suffering is coming from the
      resistance and not from the feeling itself.

      JIVANO:
      Exactly. But when resistance is there, resistance is there.
      What to do? Resist the resistance?

      If one is ready/blessed/cursed to live in a situation where
      this restistance is triggered again and again (by the teacher,
      by the spouse, by the petty tyrant) and one doesn't run
      away, than this resistance can be felt and experienced
      in 'family packs' .o)

      I don't think, that too many
      are ready for such 'families'.

      Michael Barnett, the famous energy teacher, wrote
      once (it's a re-translation from his German book
      "Wenn nicht nie, dann jetzt"):

      "You would all run away, if I showed you, how ridiculous
      you are. ...You could not accept it, nobody here can do it."


      So we all - OK, nearly all - want to be transformed
      without being critized, without being mocked at,
      isn't it so?

      But, excuse me, an email list about consciousness
      which binds itself to old behaviour-patterns of
      safe, ego-friendly discussions is ridiculous, isn't it?
      An email list, which is about non-duality, and
      forbids to post personal attacks, is like a medical
      discussion forum in which only ill participants are
      accepted. The target is not non-duality - the target
      is ME. Or YOU, if you are ready/blessed/cursed enough.



      P.S.
      The last paragraph was a just a mild example -
      a pointer, so to say.

      Are you still thankful for my sharing?
      Does your 'Love, Michelle' remains if
      being criticized?

      You know - I like to scratch. (.o)


      DAN:
      Dear Jivano,

      I see your point. I share a differing perspective.

      Is it not possible that the
      distortion of Reality continues in
      the process of supposedly looking
      for Truth (through someone who will
      criticize, violate assumptions, etc.)?

      As seen here,
      when awareness is "in" a self-constructed
      distorted reality, all awareness knows
      how to do is "survive" by continuing,
      by repeating the known. This is
      automatic, compulsive. It will
      occur when supposedly scrutinizing
      oneself mercilessly. The merciless
      scrutiny will repeat past modes
      of criticism, self-negation (which
      is a form of self-affirmation), etc.

      Criticism, evaluation, personal attacks,
      these are the self-repeating loops
      of awareness's cage.

      Pretending to be seeking transformation,
      "the known" is continued, and history
      repeats itself for another loop.

      Attack and defense is what is "known".

      What appears here as truly threatening (to
      the continuation of distortion)
      is Reality in which attack and defense
      are not possible
      positions.

      Love,
      Dan



      HARSHA:
      As you know Michele, normal intelligent, feeling human beings are quite
      capable of anger, hatred, and rage, and lashing out (although most do not
      make a career out of it). We are afraid of these so called "negative
      emotions" because there is the possibility of losing control. When control
      is lost in rage and hatred, anything is possible. Human beings can commit
      acts they would normally not think about. In fact we see often on television
      news the consequences of people giving into their rage.

      It seems to me that examining the nature and the root cause of anger,
      hatred, and rage, to the extent that such things occur in us or have the
      potential to occur is indeed critical. All of these emotions are as a result
      of our perceived/actual pain, anguish, and suffering.

      So if one does not like the approach, "Who is suffering" another practical
      question to ask is, "What is the nature of my suffering." I do not mean this
      necessarily in a Buddhist way although that is fine as well.

      What is the nature of my suffering? What comes up when you ask that
      question?

      To examine this carefully in the light of awareness is a type of a
      meditation.


      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      PAYING: MELODY, SURU & JUTTA

      MELODY
      Hi Suru,

      You said, in part:

      > My observation is that any people that live on the land which they
      > have claimed through force can never rest peacefully because in the
      > unconcious is exactly the knowledge of that wrong doing, and what
      > you give you get, so the perpetrator is always on the look out for
      > the return strike.
      > The land that is bought and the place where each house is built
      > carries the blood and this must be paid for. Whether this is in
      > America, New Zealand or Zimbabwe anywhere it doesn't matter
      > The paying is the feeling, is the owning up to and facing the
      > facts, and atoning for the actions.
      >


      MELODY:
      I remember, as a high school senior in Albuquerque, NM....
      black Americans were rioting in the city. I remember listening
      to the radio telling where the riots were progressing, and
      hearing that they were only a few blocks from my house.

      I remember thinking that I as about to 'pay' for the
      sins of my fathers. Even at that moment, fearing for
      my safety, I never once felt that I had done anything
      to be ashamed of.....nor to feel guilty for. And at the
      same time, I empathized with their rage. And I understood
      that anything that would happen to me in the minutes and
      hours to come would not be 'personal'. I understood
      even as a teenager, that this 'energy' had been set in
      motion many decades before, and was looking for
      'reconcilliation'.


      JUTTA:
      Hello Melody,

      it is not personal at all! This is about hum consciousness and that
      we are all one!
      It is my experience that it is even the best position I can b in: to
      not take it personal but to engage myself as an opening to healing
      forces!!! This is one way, I see, compassion is functioning. And this
      little "me" cannot even take the medal for the goodies happen out of
      this involvement.

      As long as the little "i" feels guilty, the whole attention is on
      self-importance! But to feel injustice of the land and to find
      healing solutions is, maybe only possible when "me" is not anymore
      the fokus in life!! So in a way compassion starts when there is
      no "me" in the way . Just there is nonduality!

      love to you

      Jutta H.M.


      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



      VICTOR:

      Virginia and I were kind of open-minded parents, maybe you could say lax.
      Tom, our oldest son, during his late teenage years would occasionally
      show up at the breakfast table with his latest light of love or overnight
      daliance from the local pub. One of these women had a severely broken
      self-image. She would do anything to be with Tom. James our other
      teenage son and Tom would cruelly joke, as only teenagers can do,
      about this woman --- they called her, behind her back, "Kick me. Beat
      me. Piss on me." They had absolutely no respect for her. To them she
      was merely a sex object.

      This is so sad. This woman had absolutely no realization or
      understanding that this was her condition. She only wanted love and
      affection and felt that this was how one obtained love and affection.
      Unless some light of truth entered her mind she would live in this
      condition for the rest of her life.

      We are all broken to some degree or other in some area of our life.
      We are all brothers and sisters in our humanity. Let those who are
      strong help the weak --- let those who are weak come to that
      realization so they can understand and change. And let us all love one
      another in our humanity. And may the light of truth enter us so that we
      may live in true peace and harmony within our humanity. The old ways
      have not worked. Let us together find the new ways. Let us come to
      know the diversity to be the unity.


      Victor

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      JUTTA:

      Two planets meet. One asked the other: How are you doing?
      Well, answered the other: "Fine. Just that I have got homo sapiens!"
      "Well", answered the first one:
      "This too will pass!"


      love

      Jutta H.M.

      ~~~~~~

      Dear Jutta,

      For me, this is extremely
      on-target.

      Sometimes, humor is a disguise
      of wisdom.

      One universe met another universe
      and said, "everything is fine,
      except that I have voices
      thinking each is a separate
      being".

      "Don't worry," said the other universe,
      "That's just me, practicing my
      ventriloquism."

      Love,
      Dan

      ~~~~~~

      Dear Harsha,

      one dicovered, experienced key for me is:

      the nature of suffering is resistance!

      As long as there is resistance to something whatsoever it is there is
      on one or the other level suffering.

      Greetings

      Jutta H.M.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      SKY & JUDI


      SKY:

      You're bugging me, as usual.

      JUDI:
      ****** Aha! :-) And I didn't even say a word to you. I must be getting
      lucky? :-)

      You know, I was thinking about you this week Sky, and how I wanted to
      find a little toy rhino and send it to you. A little gift from me
      to you. :-)


      PS - As to the rest of your post. I've never considered myself an abused
      person, nor do I, or have ever, had a problem with alcohol or drugs.
      The only abuse I get is from you! :-) Perhaps you were an abused person,
      cause you keep bringing it up? And I'm sorry if you were, but that's
      then and this is now. Let by-gones be by-gones.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      LIFE'S SURPRISES: JUDI, JOHN, VICTOR

      JOHN
      > Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. But, in keeping with the aim of
      > getting all those things done, well, email wasn't on the list. Never did
      > the beer or tequila or the steak and stuff. Wound up making strachitella
      > (sp.) - escarole and egg drop soup in chicken broth with romano cheese and
      > cracked black pepper on top. That and collard greens with some ham - and
      > garlic bread. Did have the Syrah though. I'll aim at the other stuff
      > today, so much for will and 'doing' in light of what we decide.
      >
      > Warm regards,
      > John

      JUDI:
      ********
      Yes, life is nothing but change and always a surprise.
      I found out yesterday that my cousin who was my playmate as a child
      died of liver failure from hepititis. What a shock. 53 years old, same
      age as me. The first to die in my family in my generation, with the
      exception of my little brother when he was 8 and I was 18 of pneumonia.
      I also found out yesterday that my mother a quick turn for the worse
      and now my sister says she maybe has a week to live. I spoke with Mom
      on the phone and told her I would come back and she says no, it's a
      madhouse there and she doesn't want to make it worse. She started crying
      on the phone and telling me how sad she was about the whole thing and
      we talked some. And then I found out later that my sister took the
      phone away from her because she said she was getting upset! Now my
      sister is an RN and CEO of a hospital, you think she would have better
      sense. But I guess it's hitting too close to home for her and she
      would rather just avoid these feelings. And that's why my mother
      doesn't want me back there now, because she doesn't want to upset
      anyone. Everyone there is in keeping with their smiley faces.


      JOHN:
      Naturally, my own recognition of what issues this brings up in one might
      have me saying some sentimental. Instead....

      Is it not truly a blessing to have the ground of one's being?

      Yes, there still is pain, but where is the personal sting and
      meaninglessness that once attended such experiences? It is above (or
      below).

      I have verified (again) this deep but simple truth with the recent death of
      a 29 year old friend who used to work for me. I was asked to drive to the
      funeral by a current girlfriend of this young man, who also works with us.
      The supposition was that 'I would be unaffected' in such a scenario as a
      funeral. I was 'fine' until we took our places in the pew. The
      overwhelming sense of bitter-sweetness of the situation had its effect and
      was welcomed, experienced, but not invited to stay. I went through most my
      wife's tissues. On leaving, what was the appropriate time and the
      appropriate place, the experience was left to abide with Mike. Other things
      must then be attended or witnessed. I was, for the balance of the day
      exhausted, however. This, as you know, is how to live one's life. As it is
      presented to us.

      Only those who have experienced that there is a basement, a place of no
      further falling within one's self, and that have been a witness (and a
      participant) to that 'final judgment' know what can possibly be acquired in
      such a place. A place we all fear to tread. The treading is personal thing,
      we each reach it differently (or not) as the result of own acknowledgement
      of the pointlessness and ineffectuality of our respective 'tiny',
      self-absorbed plans. With the abiding in this place comes the death of Fear
      or, at the very least, its mortal wounding.

      So, knowing this, and projecting you know this too from what you write, I
      will offer you no sympathy in this time of your life, for you know, as well
      as I, it is a cheap gift that I offer, one intended to alleviate or gain me
      something in the offering process. Instead I would offer that sympathy to
      those around you, those who might see some value in it, such as it is. But
      I notice you have already done that for me.

      Warm regards,
      John

      Famous Grouse - Single malt scotch whiskey
      PS Being of Scotch/Irish/English/Dutch descent - I gave way to the Irish
      wake part that evening of the funeral. Mike, whether he appreciates it or
      not, would have wanted it that way.


      VICTOR:

      Carl came by the shop yesterday,
      He was able to get away from Ellie,
      for a while, the nurse was with her.
      When you hit eighty,
      sometimes you need a little help.
      Carl takes care of Ellie most of
      the time now so it's hard for him to
      get away.

      He comes down to the shop
      every two weeks or so,
      to look through the pocket knife box,
      a bunch of rusty old clunkers,
      to look for a "good'un".

      The last time he was in,
      he told me he had the cancer,
      but he wasn't scared.
      "Somethin's gonna git us all
      sooner or later" he said.

      This time he had the "shining eyes"
      they all get before the end,
      It won't be long now.
      I had to tell him there was nothing
      new in the box since the last time,
      and you could read his disappointment.

      You see, he's never said, but I know
      why he wants that pocket knife.
      Everyone knows if you hold just the
      right one, you're 10 years old again
      and jumping stumps down by the creek,
      whiling away the day, whittling on a stick
      in the sweet shade of an old cottonwood.

      Today I'm gonna order a knife to
      put in that box, so's he can find it,
      and snooker me out of it in a trade.
      I just hope he makes it in
      one more time.


      Mace Mealer



      We rise and stay and pass like a bubble on a pond.
      And this very quickness is our life --- precious beyond belief.


      Victor


      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      SHAME


      MELODY:
      > Donna, I really don't know what to do with what
      > you write to me.
      >
      > It seems that you are kind of insisting that I admit
      > to feeling shame about what other Americans
      > have done....
      >
      > when I do not.
      >
      > I cried my eyes out the day Martin Luther King
      > was shot. I watched Bobby Kennedy be assassinated
      > live on TV. And I can't begin to tell you the effect it
      > had on me.
      >
      > And the cumulative effect....of John's, Martin's, Bobby's
      > and Malcolm's assassinations was truly devastating.
      >
      > What a sense of dispair I felt growing up.....seeing that
      > the price of integrity and courage....the price of 'speaking
      > truth to power'.... was death.
      >
      > But I can only say this once again: I don't feel shame
      > over those assassinations. Did I feel pain? Certainly.
      > Sorrow? For sure. Despair? I certainly did.
      >
      > But shame? No.
      >
      > But if it serves you (and others) in some way
      > to insist I that I must, then do what you will
      > with what I have said.
      >
      > with love,
      > Melody



      JERRY:
      Melody and Donna,

      Being American, I sense there is a collective shame over
      racism. To me, that is very easy to feel, though I've never
      acknowledged it as a collective, national shame.

      With lesser intensity, I feel collective shame over Indian
      massacre. It is a more quiet shame because of the passing of
      time and the propaganda.

      I feel collective shame over the presence of drugs, and the
      handling of the ecology, mental health, poverty, and over
      the treatment of all the marginalized.

      I've never really acknowledged collective shame until the
      last few days. It's not a difficult thing to feel. It's not
      a feeling I carry as heavily as those from other countries
      might carry their collective shame. But I carry it. Looking
      closely at what I carry will help me understand those whose
      burden is greater than mine.

      Jerry


      SARLO:
      In all this discussion of shame i wonder if something has gotten
      lost just because of the different ways we use words. I understand
      what Melody means when she says she doesn't feel shame about the
      crimes of "her country" but i don't think it's so easy to dismiss
      the ones that do feel shame by simply saying, "Oh, these are your
      ancestors' crimes, not yours."

      For one thing, the crimes -- perhaps not genocide now -- are still
      going on, in Germany, Canada the US and all over, in a reduced form,
      in all kinds of race-based societal problems, even if i am not directly
      participating. We *are* all participating via the collective unconscious.

      Perhaps a different example: When i first read about female genital
      mutilation in Africa, it made me weep. (I am not much of a weeper in
      general) It could be said that i was just "feeling their pain,"
      (which i also don't do much of in general) but i believe there was more
      to it than that. There was shame as well. Not that i did it to them --
      and in fact many of the perpetrators of this system are women, doing
      to their daughters and others' daughters what was done to them -- but
      i felt myself to be participating as part of the collective unconscious.
      As long as i remain to some extent unconscious i will be continuing to
      support the collective barbarity.

      There's nothing to do about it except keep looking, watching, waiting,
      feeling, processing, celebrating when i can, etc, so okay. But i
      think the phenomenon of shame is deeper and wider than the fairly political
      realm we have been considering up to now.

      Love, Sarlo

      MELODY:
      Excellent point, Sarlo. It may well be that we are using
      the word in different ways.

      As a starting point, here is my dictionary's
      definition,

      1. a painful feeling of having lost the respect of others
      because of the improper behavior, incompetence, etc of
      oneself or another

      2. a capacity for such feeling

      3. dishonor or disgrace



      What jumps out at me.....reading
      this definition.... is that the uncomfortable
      feeling is due not to a sense of remorse
      or guilt over some wrong doing

      but for for having (or fear of having)
      lost the respect and admiration of others.

      This is very much true of the sense of
      personal shame I carry.....it's not a sense
      of feeling guilty, or wanting to atone, or
      set things right.

      It's present because the biologicial entity named
      'melody' wants to be embraced and accepted
      and adored..... and because she doesn't like the
      the feeling present when she's not.

      In this vein, here's a clip I had kept....
      attributed to Osho....which seems to
      point to the origin of shame:


      'Everybody wants to be loved.
      That is a wrong beginning.
      And it starts because the child, the small child,
      cannot love, cannot say anything, cannot do
      anything, cannot give anything - he can only get.

      A small child's experience of love is of getting.
      But the trouble arises because
      everybody has been a child, and
      everybody has the same urge to get love;
      and nobody is born in any other way.

      So all are asking, 'Give us love',
      and there is nobody to give
      because the other person is also
      brought up in the same way.'

      ~ Osho


      MARA:
      Dear Sarlo,

      in response to your input.......

      and I just talk about myself....
      Shame is something I have experienced
      as an upgrowing child very much.
      Something I really learned to reject and forget
      as it was so painful.
      And when I am really honest here,
      behind the blaming and judging others I have
      discovered my shame again. Nicely hidden underneath
      a righteous mind. I have started to
      realise how shame is one of these
      not-so-easy-dealt-with feelings that
      keep me so painfully seperate.
      It is a major teacher for me and not
      easy at all to talk and share about.

      thanks and love
      Mara



      DAVE:
      Americans in general are proud. It's difficult to feel
      shame when you're proud.

      JERRY:
      Dave, how can shame be known if pride isn't known? National
      pride is good, but it would not be healthy to use is as an
      avoidance of national shame. I think the avoidance is the
      big problem.


      MELODY:
      Hi Dave and Jerry,

      I think identification is the big problem.

      I have been always very much identified as
      this body-mind complex named "melody".

      I wear it like my skin.

      I have worn my 'national identity' more like
      that of a light jacket worn only occassionally
      on cool evenings.

      I could easily lose that jacket without hardly
      noticing it was gone.

      Losing my 'skin' would be, on the other hand, a very
      different matter.

      <snip>


      JERRY:
      Melody,

      I agree that identification is the problem. Having some
      understanding of the nature of identity, a person could
      assume identities in order to better understand the
      experience of others.

      It may not be my nature, but I could put on a skin tight
      coat of national pride and shame. I'm free to do that. It
      doesn't matter what 'my nature' is, or my past relationship
      with self or nation have been. There is Now and I can do
      what I want. As long as I don't take pride in it!


      DAN:
      Dear Melody,

      Thanks for sharing these observations,
      with which I resonate.

      The birth of the universal only comes
      when the "corporeal birth" of conceptual
      identity dis-solves.

      The conceptual identity never solved
      anything, although it was meant to.

      The "me" which is the past attempts to
      survive as a solution for suffering
      through nationalism, body-mind
      identification, self-victimization,
      self-aggrandizement, other-victimization,
      other-idealization.

      The universal being is awake.
      It is now.

      The snake has been a symbol of wisdom
      because it sheds its skin.

      Love,
      Dan


      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      SURU:

      Dear Melody,

      Yes to reconciliation.
      The split mind wants to reconcile itself. Will reconcile itself. Will meet
      itself sooner or later. It IS impersonal because it is one Mind and we pay
      with our concepts and beliefs of my separate I.

      From the view of the personal me of course you had nothing to do with it,
      personally but if we are discussing nonduality then my appraoch is that we
      all come from the same source, all is one and we are not separate. So how
      can
      I deny what I see and feel being acted out on the planet as not part of me.
      Are the decrepit leaking nuclear reactors in Russia not part of my mind set,
      a product of my dual thought process of separation that everybody, except a
      few highly developed beings who appear to have dissolved completely the
      separate "I" concept ,carries.
      We had better start getting this because when the shit hits the fan it won't
      only blow over Russia, and there we see clearly the stupity and illusory
      nature that I am separate. The shit that blows does not respect borders the
      nu
      clear waste knows nothing of our ideas of separate nations and it will
      effect us all.

      So for me I am responsible , let us not get too stuck on shame, and if I
      cannot turn around and embrace the actions of the past that brought me, as
      part of the whole, here then I am still in denial and I will perpetuate
      this.
      The embracing is the dissolving of the separate "I" concept this is the
      only
      way to heal myself and the planet.
      Maybe sounds big, well it is and this is the task we have set ourselves to
      become giants.

      I don't know any other way to reconciliation with and in mySelf.

      Thanks for your sharing on this bloody and beautiful subject.


      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      TIM JANE:

      You cannot do anything i will not feel
      So take care sweet one
      Your pain is my pain,
      Your glory is my glory
      Rest, oh sweet one
      My self is everywhere scattered.
      The sheer scale of the diversity fools me.
      The depth and wonder of the mystery gets mistaken for seperation.

      I have been like a dog in a hall full of mirrors, barking at my own
      reflection.
      Let silence settle, let the wind on the lake die down and when all is
      still, theres illumination, the other appears, but this time as my self.
      I have stepped out of my own way.
      Seeing now becomes the experience, but whos the experiencer, i ask?
      Feeling then, pure feeling, feeling primary, feeling whats in the moment,
      feeling all- Life! overwhelm. But know one has ever been overwhelmed, so
      they say, who says that? i do. I am overwhelm, let me be, i am happy.
      I can afford to feel because i am beyond any horror or esctasy of feeling.
      Tell that to someone who is identified with the world and you will more than
      likely get a slap in the face. Tell that to the human part of myself and it
      will say" its all right for you old boy, your not the one in it. Awareness
      can be the master experimenter, but sometimes humanity cannot afford it,
      compassion is asked for sometimes.


      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      MELODY & JOHN

      MELODY:
      Begging you pardon (in advance) for the intrusion.

      A couple of things on this topic of shame.

      By changing things *NOW* we change the future and the past.

      Shame may well be a necessary component in any serious effort in
      self-exploration. It was for me, but I am not everyone, so I can't state
      that this is necessarily a requirement or gate that 'everyone' must pass
      through. One thing is personally certain however, that we experience shame
      to be done with it, not to raise it to the level of a personal fetish or
      demi-god.



      JOHN:
      As you point out, Melody, identification is the problem, and knowing about
      non-identification and shame does not mean that one will no longer
      experience such feelings. It may mean, however, that one is better equipped
      to understand the context and the needs (of others) around which this
      feeling has arisen. It becomes a tool of perception then, not a burden or
      something to be avoided - not to mention something glorify for its own sake.

      So, for those who have the need to experience shame - go whole hog including
      the postage - leave no part of yourself, however deeply buried, unexposed to
      this experience, just, as Judi says, "put your shoulders into it", drive
      through to the end with all of your will and being, and don't preach to
      others about the nobility of your efforts for this is indeed a wrong part of
      yourself lying about the completeness of your efforts. In my observations
      people experiencing true shame don't talk too much about it, they use it as
      the quiet integrative experience it was intended to produce knowing it was
      for them only, and would have no meaning for another and would be likely to
      produce nothing but misunderstanding and, perhaps, ridicule.

      So, if we would like to start this personal journey with national or racial
      shame, so be it, just remember in the (im)mortal words of the
      Carpenters.....

      "We've only just begun......"

      Warm regards,
      John


      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      JERRY:



      This is a rarely seen text of extreme nondualism:

      --------------------------------------------------------
      JERRY:

      Mahayanavimsaka of Nagarjuna

      ADORATION TO THE THREE TREASURES

      1

      I make my obeisance to the Buddha who is wise, free from
      all attachment, and whose powers are beyond conception, and
      who has kindly taught the truth which cannot be expressed
      by words.

      2

      In the transcendental truth there is no origination
      (utpada), and in fact, there is no destruction (nirodha).
      The Buddha is like the sky (which has neither origination
      nor cessation), and the beings are like him, and therefore
      they are of the same nature.

      3

      There is no birth either on this or the other side (of the
      world). A compound thing (samskrta) originates from its
      conditions. Therefore it is sunya by its nature. This fact
      comes into the range of knowledge of an omniscient one.

      4

      All things by nature are regarded as reflections. They are
      pure and naturally quiescent, devoid of any duality, equal,
      and remain always and in all circumstances in the same way
      (tathata).

      5

      In fact, worldings attribute atman to what is not atman,
      and in the same way they imagine happiness, misery,
      indifference, passions and liberation.

      6 - 7

      Birth in the six realms of existence in the world, highest
      happiness in the heaven, great pain in the hell,--these do
      not come within the perview of truth (i.e. cannot be
      accepted as true); nor do the notions that unmeritorious
      actions lead to the extreme misery, old age, disease, and
      death, and meritorious actions surely bring about good
      results.

      It is owing to false notions that beings are consumed by
      fire of passions even as a forest is burnt by forest
      conflagration and fall into the hells, etc. As illusion
      prevails so do beings make their appearance. The world is
      illusory and it exists only on account of its cause and
      conditions.

      8

      As a painter is frightened by the terrible figure of a
      Yaksa which he himself has drawn, so is a fool frightened
      in the world (by his own false notions).

      9

      Even as a fool going himself to a quagmire is drowned
      therein, so are beings drowned in the quagmire of false
      notions and are unable to come out thereof.

      10

      The feeling of misery is experienced by imagining a thing
      where in fact it has no existence. Beings are tortured by
      the poison of false notions regarding the object and its
      knowledge.

      11

      Seeing these helpless beings with a compassionate heart one
      should perform the practices of the highest knowledge
      (bodhicarya) for the benefit of them.

      12

      Having acquired requisites thereby and getting
      unsurpassable bodhi one should become a Buddha, the friend
      of the world, being freed fron the bondage of false
      notions.

      13

      He who realizes the transcendental truth knowing the
      pratityasamutpada (or the manifestation of entities
      depending on their causes and conditions), knows the world
      to be sunya and devoid of beginning, middle or end.

      14

      The samsara and nirvana are mere appearances; the truth is
      stainless, changeless, and quiescent from the beginning and
      illumined.

      15

      The object of knowledge in dream is not seen when one
      awakes. Similarly the world disappears to him who is
      awakened from the darkness of ignorance.

      The creation of illusion is nothing but illusion. When
      everything is compoond there is nothing which can be
      regarded as a real thing. Such is the nature of all things.

      16

      One having origination (jati) does not originate himself.
      Origination is a false conception of the people. Such
      conceptions and (conceived) beings, these two are not
      reasonable.

      17

      All this is nothing but mind (citta) and exists just like
      an illusion. Hence originate good and evil actions and from
      them good and evil birth.

      18

      When the wheel of the mind is suppressed, all things are
      suppressed. Therefore all things are devoid of atman
      (independent nature), and consequently they are pure.

      19

      It is due to thinking the things which have no independent
      nature as eternal, atman, and pleasant that this ocean of
      existence (bhava) appears to one who is enveloped by the
      darkness of attachment and ignorance.

      20

      Who can reach the other side of thc great ocean of samsara
      which is full of water of false notions without getting
      into the great vehicle (i.e., Mahayana) ?

      How can these false notions arise in a man who thoroughly
      knows this world which has originated from ignorance?

      Here ends the Mahayanavimsaka of Acarya Nagarjuna.

      Edited by Vidhusekhara Bhattacharya ©1931 Visvabharati
      Bookshop, Calcutta

      ~~~~~~~
      JERRY & FRANKLIN JONES

      I came across this on a website called
      http://www.beezone.com
      Franklin Jones is also know as Adi Da or Da Free John, among
      other names:

      ------------------------------------------------------

      The following is a letter Franklin Jones wrote Patricia
      Morely after leaving the Vedanta Temple in Los Angeles in
      1970. It has never been published, but I saw a copy of it
      and memorized it. Could be wrong but my memory says
      something like this:

      My Heart!

      Franklin is free!

      Sitting in my room a few minutes ago and suddenly know who
      I am. A magnificent flow moved through me, through the Flow
      of Everything.

      I have always loved and there is only love.

      Franklin is the fire, the wheels, the quick-throated,
      rounded blossom, sizzling life of all the universes.

      Do you know me now my darling one?

      Oh God, I've reached so deep into the passion of galazies
      and everyone is Me.

      I am forever. I am doing nothing but love. I am nothing but
      love.

      I am howling at breakfast, prowling in the trees, yet if
      you were to see me, you'd think I was a quiet man.

      It was so sudden I had to tell you.

      Come live with me.



      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      LARVALS and such:

      MACDONALD:
      Dear Judi and Royal

      I want to share with you my understanding of that which we call love.

      From experience it is that, which every thing is made from, including
      holoucausts. It could be decribed as if it were the only chemical
      compound.

      Which, still leaves me at the point where I am, although I may know
      this, if there is not experiencing of it, it's not true even though
      its true.

      I think I'd better go and have a gin,
      A toast to your repartee, I really do enjoy it.



      GENE:

      NDS

      Hello Royal,

      Please allow me this opportunity to reply to Melody, Greg, and
      everyone, IE 'Larvals' etc, as in my post to Judi;

      GREG:

      Hi Melody,

      I agree with you that it might not be the most inspiring or
      uplifting dialog from the viewpoint of the one doing the seeking.
      And also it's not devoid of the "us vs. them" talk either. But
      that's not why I liked it. For those people who *do* feel the great
      desire for the quest for enlightenment and yearn for its attainment
      (or cessation of the yearning), this dialog is a good description of
      how it ends, and looking back on it, how it felt or looked. It also
      depicts life as celebration and the spontaneous movement to help
      others. There are other ways too. Perhaps better to be savored
      "after" than "before."

      ROYAL:
      Please tell me this is not how it ends. In a posture of puffed up
      superiority mocking those who are, where once stood all, seeking ever
      greater understanding.

      GREG:
      Of course there are lots of poetic-license non-essentials in the
      talk, based on the particularities of the body-minds doing the
      talking. None of it, however, is taken seriously, not the ice-
      clinking, the "larvals," or anything else.

      ROYAL:
      Except perhaps by the 'larvals'.

      GENE:
      Dear All,

      Well, I see that I have put my foot into it, so to speak.

      Am I guilty of 'labeling' you? Are you mocked? As you so certain of
      this, to have put it into words and posted it here? Have I identified
      you in this way? If I have not identified you in this way, then tell
      me; who has?

      Did I say; "If you are an idiot, please raise your hand"?

      Greg's reply to Melody was spot-on. He did peripherally refer to
      Melody's possible motivation for her reply, and Melody confirmed this
      in her reply to him. Now, I see Royal assuming something about
      'puffed up' and mocking.

      A question: Have you heard of the concept of 'irony'? From my POV,
      there was nothing in my post except (esoteric) humor, and a friendly
      affirmation of my friendship with Judi (which I know by now, is a
      risky position to put myself in, politically speaking).

      My use of the term 'larval' is frequent here in NDS, and is for a
      reason. Please see:

      <http://deoxy.org/8_larvals.htm>

      This page points out exactly the dynamics which I seem to have
      triggered by my writing. Please read it carefully, if you have any
      uncertainty as to my 'position' concerning the 'larval' stage of
      evolution. Take note of what is said on this page, before you begin
      mentally arguing with the POV presented there. If you can get the
      whole concept, I think you will see that it is at least potentially
      useful.

      BTW, I have two beautiful 'larval' sons, whom I am educating in all
      of these various aspects. They see a great deal of humor in all of
      it, and their knowledge has helped them to avoid many pitfalls, which
      those who are less conscious are subject to. This is my attempt here
      also, which I try to make abundantly clear.

      Believe me, if I thought that I was writing to a bunch of dummies, I
      would not bother. So rest assured that my words, however they may be
      interpreted, do not represent an accusation of any sort.

      Rest easy and have fun,

      ==Gene Poole==


      Quote from above website:


      "Larvals fervently resist new symbols which require a change in their
      network
      of associations. This resistance to learning is not psychological; it
      is neurological and
      biochemical. New ideas require a change in the wiring of associations
      and literally cause
      a "headache."

      Communicating with a larval involves building onto the net of associations.
      You must literally wire each new idea to an existing neural
      connection. Larvals learn
      almost no new symbol systems after childhood. They simply add on or
      translate into
      symbols closely connected to the imprint. This accounts for the fact
      that it takes at least
      one generation for a new idea to be understood.

      It is especially important in communicating with larvals to remember that
      few
      symbols now exist for post-larval processes. "



      JOHN DUFF:
      In tune with Dan, the lighthouse, it ends where you want it to end and how
      you see it ending.

      We often do not see things in others in the light of which they are being
      offered. Judi, in her way, is also a light-house. As is Gene. Whether
      Heart remains in this process is a personal decision. I, for one, know
      nothing of Gene and Judi beyond what they write here so I cannot say whether
      there is great compassion for others in their lives or not, actually, I'll
      go out on a limb here and there probably is, because of what they write and
      how they frame it.

      It may be that is has something to do with *identification*. Say, if you
      asked *life* (sincerely, with an open heart) to know what *identification*
      was, and how it acted in *your* life, then right here might be a good place
      to look. It also might be a good place to find that 'one type' of love we
      are all aiming at within ourselves to see what that really tastes like.

      > > Of course there are lots of poetic-license non-essentials in the
      > > talk, based on the particularities of the body-minds doing the
      > > talking. None of it, however, is taken seriously, not the ice-
      > > clinking, the "larvals," or anything else.
      >
      > Except perhaps by the 'larvals'.

      We all need fire to catalyze our understanding, to drive deeper, this brings
      the emotional center to the table to dine with the intellect, an important
      exchange of information can then happen within one's self. For a time, the
      fire comes from outside or until we learn to gather our own wood and tend to
      our own flame.

      There is a G. aphorism:

      "You came here with the expectation of working on yourself, and only
      yourself. Be thankful to everyone who gives you this opportunity."

      Marcia will correct me, I'm sure, if I have this wrong.

      The key to the entire thread, for me, was Gene's reference to a higher level
      of thought existing. Is such a thing possible? Forget whether Gene or Judi
      are there or know this for sure. Is it possible in your own mind and heart?
      If it is not then nothing can be done - except patience. If it is possible,
      then you must entertain the notion that if you achieve this you might look
      at the way you think and feel now, differently, much differently. How you
      reflect this to others will be your choice (to a large extent) but still be
      probably along the lines of how your life brought you to this realization.
      This is all there is to this sort of thing. For me it was the Fourth Way,
      for others it is different, not wrong, just different.

      There are parts within ourselves that we do not like to associate with, that
      we all feel we would be better off without, that if they were gone then we
      would have what we are aiming for. We could be mistaken in this effort.
      These things could be the very wood we need to build our own fire, yet we
      seek to throw them away and seeing those same logs in others we suggest they
      should do the same. That Judi or Gene or Pou or Greg would say that we
      haven't gotten it yet, in whatever way they manifest, is really to offer a
      gift of self appraisal in all the areas we seek to attain. Compassion,
      objective love, self knowledge, understanding, non-identification. We can
      each then, in the comfort of our homes, evaluate our own test scores, and
      know which areas we are weak in. Who could ask for more from *life* if one
      has a quest for something?


      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      MICHAEL READ:

      Tales from the 4,000,000 year old entity - :-)>>>>

      I remember those early days of primate humanoid life quite well.
      They were something, I'll tell you. I used to re-incarnate a lot!
      Life spans were short back then. Fifteen twenty minutes tops!
      Something was always killing and eating you back then. If not the
      predator next door, then it was Mom or Pop!

      Eventually we got up to living for a few days then weeks. Things
      really looked good when you could make it to a month! Boy! That was
      something. Then we hit a bit of a rough spot when our kids started
      being born without thier tails. You'd have one of those and eat it
      right away so no one would know. If it weren't for Shiela and Robert
      we might have died out right then and there.

      Shiela thought her tail-less babies were just the cutest things to
      ever pop out of her. Robert didn't like it too much, but he loved
      Shiela like a mad monkey (monkies actually came later) and would do
      anything Shiela wanted. Those two started and trend, wouldn't you
      guess, and soon none of us had tails!

      Next time I'll tell you the story of our earliest scientific
      discoveries. They were stick and rock.

      HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

      Peace - Michael
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