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NDS Highlights for Sunday 17th September, 2000

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  • Manchine
    MARCIA, DAN JAN MARCIA: I realized that as I momentarily awaken and I sideways glimpse the i or personality I was in, there is this desire to shake it and
    Message 1 of 1 , Sep 19, 2000
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      I realized that as I momentarily awaken and
      I sideways glimpse the 'i' or 'personality' I was
      in, there is this desire to shake it and wake it
      up. This is a clinging to the notion that the 'i'
      or thought is really who I am. In other words
      I am still a little identified. I feel/think that this
      is a real thing or this 'me' is who I am. I realized
      that I can't wake this thing up not because it
      sleeps too soundly but because it isn't a thing.
      It is just a momentary integration of the thinking,
      feeling, and emotional centers or a posture if
      you will. It is content and not form.

      I think that I am a being having thoughts or feelings
      or sensations but it is only the thoughts, feelings,
      sensations thinking they are a being. Thoughts,
      feelings, sensations can't wake themselves up.
      They are not asleep or awake. Just data.
      Something else wakes up and becomes aware
      of the thoughts, feelings, sensations.

      From the perspective of energy, one can see that thoughts and
      feelings are representing a flow of energy, whereby the major
      part of energy is represented by feelings. From this perspective,
      well-being/feeling happy means an unhindered flow of energy and
      unhappiness results when the flow is interrupted (like lost love,
      or being rejected, or having lost a loved one). "Waking up" can
      occur when this process is recognized and instead of providing
      new channels for the energy (like taking a pet), nothing is done
      (surrender). This is why in the N.T. is spoken about the first
      death (of the "I") and the second death (of all feelings). This
      perspective also ties in neatly with the energy aspect of Kundalini.
      Of course "waking up" is an incorrect expression, used for the
      sake of argument, because if awakening has a beginning, it must
      have an end.

      You and Dan seem to be saying the same thing.
      And it has been said before. Maybe I am now ready
      to hear it.

      I guess the best way to say it is that rather than a
      human being which wakes up there is being.
      This seems to be what I realized when I wrote
      the post. That is that I realized I thought that
      these 'i's' could be woken up. Rather I realized
      that they couldn't be woken up. There is an
      awaking to them. Whatever thinks that it can
      wake them up is another one of them.

      Another perspective is that awakening can be said to
      consist of the gradual elimination of (automatic) activities
      of the mind, the metaphor being cleaning the surface of
      the lake so that the "bottom of gold" can be seen. Then
      it will be clear one was awakened all the time and it never
      was otherwise. From this perspective one can do away with
      (silly?) notions of "I" or not-I as the "mopping up" continues
      until the lake is so clean and still that seemingly it is absent.


      Hi, Marcia.


      Thoughts, memories,
      reactions simply arise.

      They arise "in" That which
      is purely Unknown in
      terms of thought, memory,
      and the body-mind
      "field of experience
      and reference".

      No thought can possibly
      "contain" a reference
      point to That within which
      thought arises. That
      simply is not "in"
      any content or reference
      point constructed
      by thought.

      There is no entity that wakes up,
      as the apparent entity is
      a ghost conglomerated from
      apparent reference points
      as "me".

      "Awakeness" is.

      The entity isn't there,
      has never been.
      None of the thought fixations
      or reference points ever have
      any "ultimate" reality, although
      they tend to be treated as
      if "real" centers for reality.

      It doesn't matter in terms of
      Unknownness that personal
      accomplishments, kingdoms,
      nations, religions, have
      risen and fallen. It doesn't
      matter that solar systems
      have come and gone. The
      "petty" concerns of human life
      are appropriate to human
      thought and action. This is
      "natural" and the biocomputer is
      "designed" for this. Just as
      building an ant hill is
      appropriate to the ant.

      So, the question "what is
      ultimate reality" or
      "what is Being" isn't a question
      by a human being, to be answered
      by a human being (unlike
      other questions such as unemployment,
      pollution, the historical context
      for international conflicts).

      This question
      *is* at the root of human being, and the
      answerless answer is That within
      which the entire sphere called
      "human being" arises.



      Some years ago I used to do the mirror meditation a lot and at one
      point in a meditation camp I looked into a mirror and saw the eyes of
      love looking back at me. Since then I know that I am love, for me
      consciousness is love.


      Hi Sarah,

      Thank you for reminding me about the mirror meditation.
      I have spent more than a few hours in a darkened room,
      gazing at a mirror with only candlelight to illumine my face.

      So many 'faces' begin flashing.....looking back at me.....
      I always walked away from that exercise wearing my skin
      rather loosely.

      I have been told that if one practices it long enough
      there will come a time when one simply steps 'thru'
      the mirror.

      This one is a very effective device, indeed.



      More random notes

      Observing: Shame

      Talk... of shame. Yes, shame, one of the most difficult topics,
      seldom visited. On the Shame of modern Germans; it seems that
      post-WW1 German people, were steeped in shame, and A Hitler offered
      them a way out of shame, via world conquest and the idea of racial
      superiority. Obviously, that did not work, it was a total disaster,
      but was it profound shame (read: low self-esteem on a massive scale)
      which actually created the opening for a redeemer/strong leader eg
      Now that Hitler's fiasco has resulted in even more shame... what
      can we expect from those who are ashamed (low/negative self esteem)?
      This seems to be a crucial question; will it be up to individuals,
      like our new German members, who seem to be working overtime to deal
      with this issue, or will it be a mass movement? I cannot pretend to
      know. But I speculate that if there is to be a 'new Hitler', he will
      not be German, for it does seem to me that the German people have
      learned a very deep lesson.

      Observing: Advaita Teacher Syndrome

      I observe that 'enlightenment' is the natural state of the
      human, and I go from there. Following, I say that maturation brings
      nondual awareness, that nondual awareness is disruptive only when
      experienced 'prematurely', and that 'teachers' who strive to 'awaken'
      others, have a captive audience, created by exorbitant claims that
      'everyone should be aware nondually'.
      I say that it is untrue that 'everyone should... "; I say that
      yes, we are heavily biased toward 'duality' via our conditioning as
      children, but that contrary to (anxiety producing) expectations to
      the contrary, that the view that 'nothing is wrong' is roundly
      ignored by those who flap their arms while proclaiming the void of
      realization of people around the world. It is apparent from the
      spread of age-statistics that the majority of nondual realized ones
      are over age 40, centered around age 50. I suggest that we are
      looking at a natural process; and there are those attempting to goose
      the process along, with certain 'teachers' claiming credit that is
      actually due nature.

      Observing: Quickening of realization via internet acceleration

      It seems to be true, although I have no data to refer to. I
      observe that when one has others of like mind to talk to, that
      uncertainties tend to evaporate, and that celebration of our
      commonality then commences. This is not to suggest that such fora (is
      that a word?) are panacea; nor is it an advocacy of leaving behind
      living in-person face to face teaching encounters. It is an
      observation of just how starved we have been, for communion and
      sharing. Thanks, Jerry!

      Observing: Religious vs technical nonduality descriptions

      I observe that accurate descriptions of nondual realization and
      experience are possible outside of classical religious (worship of
      God, Divinity, and similar), and that there is a new freedom opening
      for this neutral, non-deistic way of describing.

      Observing: Emotion VS sentiment

      Those with the most to lose upon realization, cling to
      sentimental versions of life experience, while those with little or
      nothing to lose, brashly proclaim their relief at losing it, and
      state with various degrees of passion, the transformations and trauma
      which have (seem to have) been instrumental in their awakening.

      More later...

      ==Gene Poole==


      I notice in a post today of Gene's where he is speaking in his terms of

      He mentions here of shame of the German people. Again, the depth,
      the non-communicated, the unknown, the secrets, as these matters
      slowly bubble up into conscious awareness.


      Shame at a personal level can only be integrated to the degree that
      the individual is capable of feeling and to the degree that one is
      able to feel is to the same degree one is able to integrate shame.

      We can see at the collective level should it be German, American,
      English, Australian, Spanish, whatever. Where great degrees of
      shaming have taken place that we're still very immature collectively
      in even attempting to let along spell the word shame.

      We seem to be so happy to project our shadow onto the other. It's
      convenient for us to speak of the shame of the German psyche, so

      Dear Pou, I truly enjoy what you bring to this forum. I need the
      depth of your insight.

      I sincerely hope that my words, referred to by you above, were not
      somehow inappropriate.

      I refer to 'the German people' in my letter, as you say. But I am
      very aware that no person living today is in any way responsible for
      the acts or intentions of Hitler. I feel that I am addressing
      something real (and what I am addressing is the difference between
      personal and cultural/societal/collective guilt), it is real in that
      when it is spoken of or not spoken of, there is an effect which is
      felt in the body.

      If something is 'sticking around', bothering one on the level of
      feelings, it is there for a reason. It should probably be addressed;
      there is usually a good outcome to such examinations.

      On the other hand, we cannot undo the past, which is the past, gone,
      over with, except for memory.
      I see a need to refresh our memories when it comes to facing huge
      errors, so that such errors are not committed any more. I am capable
      of learning by the mistakes of others.

      I myself have boiled in a deep fryer of guilt, until I knew its taste
      intimately. That experience is one of the 'reasons' why I recognize
      the need to free myself of the past, not through denial, but through
      understanding and reconciliation.

      Thanks again for being here and contributing as you do.

      Much love,

      ==Gene Poole==

      POU STORY:


      Dear Harsha

      Kia ara Koro..... greetings respected elder Harsha

      Kia Ora means... strong health.. recognition... meeting..

      What I communicate to you today is my... Nga.. ko re ro.. my message to
      you... the heart.

      Tena koutou katou.. means.. greetings to all.. but Harsha it is greetings
      in recognition... I am here with you.. really here with you and delighted
      to be..

      I'll do my best to offer the meaning of this greeting.

      This greeting arises from my blood.I have Maori blood which I carry proudly.

      The Maori language is a very oral expression. The whole of the Maori
      mythology of culture and love was never written, it has always been passed
      from father to son and from mother to daughter and so on in an oral

      It is a very living language, vibrant, alive. For example it doesn't say "I
      am with the mountain", it refers to when I am with the mountain.... I am the

      Literally translated, the meaning of my greeting, it is greeting to you, it
      is greeting to your family... and it includes all. It reminds us behind our
      exterior form, we are one.

      My birthplace is Aotearoa. I carry the Maori blood within my body therefore
      when I greet you I include my family in the greeting to you and to your

      Beloved Harsha, Kia Ora.. we have the instantaneous recognition naturally
      because of our unspoken love and understanding of Shri Ramana and we may
      well have Ramana's photo up all over our home and a book case full of his
      written words .... and have from what I understand awoken to the beauty of
      the Self throu the grace of the Sat Guru Ramana

      Naturally and healthily as well we / I may also have our differences of
      opinion(s) regarding beliefs, concepts, still the heart is one.

      Kia ka ha.... stay strong ,clear ,healthy with your purpose

      Aroha love always


      Dear Pou

      Thank you for explaining that beautiful greeting. I like it very much now
      that I know the meaning. It is also nice to know about your Maori
      background. Could you please tell more. I don't know much about the Maori
      people and where they originate.

      Here is what the greeting "Tea Chai Spicy Chai Good Chai Tea" signifies.

      The story is that when Boddhidharma went to China, it is said that he
      meditated by staring at a wall. He would occasionally doze off and this
      really irritated him. So he plucked out his eye lashes and threw them on the
      ground. From that spot on the earth grew an incredible plant. The leaves of
      that plant had the property of keeping people awake. That is considered the
      origin of Tea in China.

      Chai is spicy Tea which is drank in India. It is simply Tea with certain
      spices in it. Tea is revered as a spiritual instrument in subtle ways. In
      Japan, they have the Tea ceremony.

      Tea can have both dedicative and meditative effects on the vital principle
      of the body.

      Tea also helps to warm up the body for yoga postures and is an important
      dietary component of an ancient system of integrative, differntiative,
      transcendental, and super transcendental yogic and tantric traditions.

      When the practitioners of this ancient system meet they recognize each other
      with their affinity for Tea and say "Tea Chai Chai Spicy Chai Tea".

      This greeting actually has many versions and variations on which I will
      comment later at a suitable point.

      Lots of love


      In the circus.. first it was primal.. everyone was a primal therapist
      after a 2 week training, then bodywork of one sort or another,
      again two or three week training, then came channeling...oh channelling whow
      again a weekend course, then came Reki, whom amn feel the nergy.... then
      this... then that... all 2 or three weekend long trainings.. farout out
      man...whow... lets do it... and now... it's.. wait for it............
      satsang...... yeh.. it would appear that most of these dudes have no
      training in offering such a serious sport..what will be next in

      LOL! Thanks for a great laugh, Pou.

      I sure see myself in what you say above....having gone thru
      that phase myself - where I just couldn't wait to go out and
      'teach' what I had just learned the day before.

      This seems to be a rather universal impulse among
      western seekers. I wonder if it's because of our
      imprinting by Christianity.....and the Church's mission
      of turning those they "save" on Sunday

      into "fishers of men" by Monday.


      On a note of seriousness, if I may be sincere here. It would appear today
      that the state of awakening in western consciousness is upon us.

      There have been many reported seeing of visions of this universla awakening
      that has taken place today. I won't go into that one here. Rajneesh firmly
      believed for one, that he was working with his people to create the new man.

      In his books 'In search of the Mircaulous" he speaks about the period after
      awakening. He goes on to say and this is not verbatim due to copyright law
      and having said that it is too my personal understanding that if you think
      the work before awakening is difficult then the work after awakening what
      the Zen people call "cultivating awareness after enlightenment" will be ten
      times more difficult.

      He goes on to explain the reason why it is so difficult because one has to
      get past the 'i' now that is experiencing the new state of enlightenment.

      For thousands of years in the East, a person was never allowed to offer
      Satsang unless instructed by their qualified master. To become a qualified
      master has been and still is today in real circles, real schools of
      enlightenment, an extremely ardupous task. For newly enligthened ego can't
      wait to give Satsang. You only have to visit Jerry Katz's website to
      witness this phenemonan.

      My own personal understanding of the awakened state and I speak personal
      here, not of others, is that the body and the mind need a long period of
      integration. I have witnessed in my own self over the years and with others
      close to me. Yes, the state of enlightenment or the non-state is presen,
      aware of its own self but to not inclujde the psyche, to deny the psyche now
      is a sign of very immature cultivation of present attention.

      Still, like in all things in life people need to live in the state of
      denial. Lifetimes even. Being stuck in the enlightened staet.

      In the East they know that newly awakened disciple, first ten to twenty
      years needs time to settle in. All these idiots today and unqualified at
      that, repititiously quote "For whom?"

      Melody, Zen sticks were invented for enlightened disciples who can't wait to
      give Satsang and talk about truth before they are mature.

      Thanks for your comments, Pau.(Pou)

      And I hear your concerns
      that unintegrated expressions
      of "truth" may reflect and project
      splitness, rather than unsplit truth.

      Yet, I ask:
      Who qualified Jesus; who
      hit Gautama with a stick?

      Only Reality was their guide.

      Jesus just stood up and spoke,
      didn't worry about jeers
      from the sideline about his
      lack of qualifications
      (and it's always those who
      self-proclaim as being
      "qualified" that offer
      such jeers).

      He simply felt called to share Reality.

      From here, it's not a matter of qualifications,
      but of quality. Does the expression "work",
      is it truly "useful"? That seems the key.

      It's not the stamp of approval, nor is it
      the amount of time (although yes, it
      does indeed take time to settle
      and "integrate" for "appropriate
      expression in the world").

      It's simply the quality, the depth, the
      resonation that "makes a difference".

      Jesus's words resonate here,
      to "call not the
      other 'fool'";
      pull the beam from
      one's own eye
      before focusing
      intent and attention
      on the splinter
      seen in
      one's neighbor's eye.

      Is not Reality the ultimate stick that
      strikes the ignore-ant (as well as
      "the wise") ?

      And is not this stick aimed
      at all of us equally?

      Have you noticed that when
      the word "idiot" is used,
      that typically it is aimed
      at the "idiot" out there?

      What of the "idiot" in here??

      Ready for my whack,
      just another idiot,


      Greetings All

      Tena koutou katou

      (Greetings to you and your family)

      There was an exquisite programme on English television last night about a
      man who practised Hassidic Judaism and at the same time he professed to be
      a hippie - a really gorgeous guy, who has decided to live with his family
      from I understood to be on Israeli occupied land surrounded by a city of
      Palestinian people.

      At one point he gave his own personal opinion that one of the reasons
      people "hate" .. his own word.. Jews, is that Jews (generlisation) remind
      us of our lack of living celebrating religiousness. The lack of an alive,
      spontaneous, religious life.

      I can really resonate with what he was speaking about within my own person,
      living at present in a society where expression of spontaneous outburst of
      praise in the Lord name... is for most.. uncouth and certainly unbecoming
      behaviour. The looks I receive from walking barefoot in the park.. of all
      places ..is amazing.

      It is not the done thing to walk barefoot here where I live..

      I've never been to Israel or any of the recognised Holy lands so I clearly
      cannot comment about any situation there. Even if I was to visit.. I would
      see from the perceptive of my own conditioning and my belief filters.

      Watching this video clip and watching this beautiful man as the story
      followed his day to day life, what touched me so deeply is that he was able
      to get up in the morning and in the open air sing to God. Of course, his
      God, our God, GOD.. with such openness, a celebration of love..

      Here where I am at present .. if I tried this one on tomorrow morning. ..
      it may possibility not go down to well if you know what I mean...

      This man has the full blessing of the community is allowed has full
      permission to express his religiousness.. his celebration.. in public at
      anytime and yes he also has an army to protect his rights...

      He can wear the clothes that he wants and however ridiculous they may or
      mayn¼t appear to the outside world, he has this expression of religious
      freedom to sing , dance, speak, praise God, to praise the Beloved, to dance,
      sing, speak, to be with others in this way, to live it day by day, moment by

      And what is even more fascinating is the more he does this from the
      expression of this heart and mind the more his friends and family support
      this expression of living..whow...

      I honestly believe that that deep in all our hearts, no we all may not wish
      to, nor do we wish to want to live in a commune or do something
      religious trip or experimentation separate in a closed community... that
      end up in war with the so called outside world playing.. the.. we are
      right.. you are wrong game.... I feel and believe deep in our hearts we/I
      want to live in a world today not in the distant future, where we can walk
      down the streets with family and friends and teach our children (teach is
      probably not the right word here because it does have the connotation
      perhaps to manipulate in order to control) and praise God by singing or
      dancing with respect to others, but when and where we feel like it.

      A little while ago on the Underground in London at peak hour and the train
      packed like sardines, a man who looked like an Hassidic Jew started singing
      his head off but because it was in Hebrew I didn't understand the words but
      it felt like he was singing to his Beloved God. Such joy. Such spontaneous
      uncalled for outbursts.

      It is my own personal belief system after having worked for many years in
      the field of shame and addiction and certain aspects of neurosis that unless
      we sing and dance everyday and praise God, and have the ability to praise
      God when and where the feeling arises for us in our unique individual way,
      that fear and separation, righteousness will be the expression of the day.

      I know this is an incredibly sensitive issue especially if there is any
      Palestinian people at NDS, it is not that I speak this way of Judaism in any
      way to be insensitive to the Palestinian situation at present in the holy
      land. It is just my uneducated ignorance that I do not know about
      Palestinian people; their culture, their love and their way of celebrating
      God. I sure am open to learn...

      Hi Pau-ji,

      Is not the bird on that tree
      over there singing the infinite Name?

      Does not the thunderstorm
      resonate with that Name?

      Is the earthquake not shaking
      the ground with that Name?

      Most certainly, there is no
      particular "Jewish" nor "Palestinian"
      claim to the Name in which
      all are born equally ...

      However one hears it,
      one hears only of one's

      Whether it is heard from
      a Hasidic Jew, a Sufi
      dervish, or the sound
      of the janitor's broom
      sweeping the hall...

      It is simply ...

      'what is'

      Dear Pou,
      I loved to read this one.
      What is this passion for the Self if one cannot express it!
      I start singing in the office, in my car, on the street.
      Still very careful and silent.
      And strange: one man joined in singing passing me by.
      That is shared love, I believe.

      Dear Pou,

      This mail got me.

      I think it is the longing in everybody (for sure in myself) to praise
      god every second and in every expression which needs to be expressed.

      On Friday I had lunch in a canteen where mainly civil servants use to
      eat. One of these men sat down next to me and before starting to eat
      I saw him doing his prayer. He did it very inconspicuous. I hadn't
      seen somebody praying in public for a long time and I realized that
      it is such an unusual act - I felt touched and embarrassed at the
      same time. Then he saw that I had watched the action and he just
      looked at me very quiet. I felt such a dignity and love in his eyes.
      Now I realize that there is much shame connected with expressing
      gratitude to god and being seen in these actions. At the same time I
      experienced that in praying dignity and love arises. It is such an
      intimate action and very fragile. That's why this man touched me. I
      felt like having received a precious gift.



      > The teachings of non-duality are profound indeed, with the
      > potential to awaken. Yet, it has appeared to me from experience and
      > in speaking with others, that these teachings are often used as a way
      > to hide. Non-dual concepts are concepts none the less and the once
      > profound concept has been turned into rhetoric by many. When
      > speaking with one interested in non-duality it is most important to
      > get the jargon down. Personal pronouns are most harmful, and of
      > course there is "no effort","no doing", "no birth..no death". Most
      > importantly your "search is over" and if really pressed with a
      > difficult question just ask "Who wants to know?" But has one
      > realized this...most often NO. If you are asking "Well, who is there
      > to realize anything?", you are definately a hider. There is also the
      > more subtle who you will most likely find giving a retreat or satsang
      > in an area close to you, who are attached to consciousness. They
      > hold to this "beingness" which is wholely due to the vital principle
      > for dear life. It wasn't present before or after birth.
      > Unfourtunately, they get students to rest(attached) in this vital
      > principle and "not do anything.. no one to do it." Then there are
      > geniune teachers who for some reason trap themselves in the language
      > of non-duality. They say "You are free from the beginning", then the
      > student says "I am Free!" Now we have another retreat coming to an
      > area close to you. The whole point is you have to hold sincerity and
      > answer to death(forget no birth..not death). I'm sorry to upset all
      > those resting in their beingness..doing nothing. And those false
      > teachers who look sincerely might have to get a new job.
      > Mazu

      I like your letter. There must be a next step (and maybe I am
      dreaming, I dont care - but since we are all dreaming!)- I was hiding
      in bliss for quite a while myself - maybe the time has come where
      enlightenment or the state of nonduality (since the mind grasps
      everything too quick and who knows in identification that he/she
      -sorry!- is identified and dont tell me in non duality is no mind)is
      collectively bored of itself (I hope). What about life and creation?
      And responsibility? Or shall we just "accept" everything as it is?
      What about the "doing" out of the "non doing"???

      Dear Rose,

      The "conceptual mind"
      has many means at its
      disposal to continue
      the closed system
      of concepts as if
      reality were based

      It isn't.

      Concepts like
      "What will I do next?"
      "What about this important
      issue, and that important
      concern" ...

      Awareness is always only
      There is no where for awareness
      to go that isn't awareness.

      As concept arises, any tendency
      to identify "within" the
      concept "empties" before
      it can "anchor" anywhere.

      If so, there is nowhere to call

      There is no "next moment" and
      no one who is going
      into a "next moment" with
      an agenda for "how to
      take care of business".

      Above are simply several concepts
      that arose as your posting
      was read.

      If these concepts aren't useful,
      please discard.


      Dear NondualitySalon

      Dear Mazu

      I'm new to the NondualitySalon. For a few days I've been reading your
      letters and being touched and inspired, and feeling a bit daunted too.

      I'm not awake, or so I believe, but as one who has attended many Satsangs of
      the "Who's asking the question?" school, what you wrote Mazu really
      resonates with me. I sat all quiet and empty (nothing to do) with tears
      rolling but having heard the same approach for hours on end I was left
      Yes, and now what?
      There must be a next step; there's this looking for one.

      Dear Sammy,
      Once we were burdened by the concepts of duality, and then we hear the
      concepts of non-duality and it feels like we've drop a weight. But the
      concepts of non-duality soon become a weight of there own. I assume the if
      you've asked the "now what?" question in a satsang you were asked "well, who
      is there to do anything?" Great, thanks! There is the possibility to go
      beyond these concepts, and in so doing be free to make a couragous, bold,
      effort without giving a rats ass wheather it is a effort or not. The truth
      is the truth and is none the less or more due to any concept. If you are
      like me, just the idea of frankly "not having time" for these conceptual
      deliberations can be truely freeing and you will have the vitality that
      you've been supressing while trying to live up to a non-dual concept. I am
      going to India and will make my Last Stand, willing to die if need be. That
      is why, for the first time I am speaking about these matters. Make a
      stand...fuck the bullshit and the pandits. It's between you and death, it
      must be pragmatic and urgent or it's play. Write soon. All of my Love.

      dear george,
      from an impersonal viewpoint it is clear

      but there is also synchronically the personal dimension...

      when your partner leaves you with another woman
      your child dies in an accident
      or your beloved suffers of cancer etc.

      it did not empower me to ask "for whom is this happening for"
      my experience is and what I have to learn through feeling....


      greetings Tamara

      Sometimes the seeker coming to some "enlightened" individual is
      hiding his non-agreement with what
      the "enlightened" one says or does. Is hiding his own intelligence
      and his own opinions, considering that the "enlightened" one
      is "further" than himself. Cause who would be satisfied with an
      answer to a question like "How come the world is such a mass, if God
      is everything? - "There is no I, so who is asking the question in the
      first place?" - "It is all Samsara". Great answers, thank you.
      And the "enlightened" one is hiding, cause he has actually no answer
      to this kind of questions.

      Love, Clarissa

      Dear Clarissa,

      The provision of an "answer"
      is like giving a child
      a rattle to play with
      so the child will feel



      Dear Dan,

      thank you for your poetic words about the essence.

      For a long time I thought non-doing is the answer, very easy - I
      just "do" it´- had good times, had bad times with it. India is a
      ground for pracitising.
      Then back to the West - the whole lot of frentic acting started
      again - just being like anybody else around....the same as in India!!!

      Now: There is lots to do and lots to undo - still, the gold is known
      and the fear standing next to it: what to do if nothing comes? - or:
      The unknown wants to walk in, may be I'm busy or may be elsewhere
      dreaming, forgetting that God is knocking and wants some tea?

      I found out that "God wants to have tea not with sugar but with fun"
      and me, too!! He doesn't care what I do, if I simply do with love.

      Hi Birgit,

      Nice to hear from you
      on "this".

      Yes, the Unknown knocks
      Who can say who is knocking?
      I hesitate to say "God" or
      "Consciousness" just
      because so many images
      and ideas have been generated
      about "God" and "Consciousness".
      Who is knocking certainly isn't
      an idea, and certainly isn't
      anything found in "the past"
      or "a teaching".

      And if there is anyone home,
      Unknown Being won't "come in".
      However, if emptiness is,
      Unknown Being already is "here".
      The "knocking" transforms into
      "presence" of resonating awareness.

      As there is no "wall" of thought,
      concepts, emotional reactions
      separating an inside from an
      outside, only "universal presence"

      Thanks for sharing what you found out.

      One might say, "only
      'being': no one to find and
      nothing to be found.

      And 'being' lifts this cup of
      tea, and is the cup, and
      is the toast to you, who
      are only 'this being'.

      Blessed be,

      GENE, DAN:


      Reply to Dan/Entropy

      Hi Dan, you replied to my letter about 'entropy'. Sorry for the delay
      in responding, I have gotten a little buried in other work, and
      forgot. (Whew! lots of posts lately!)

      Nice piece, Gene.

      Beautifully stated.

      The 'action' that forms
      the Matrix is all-at-once,
      so much so that all-at-once
      is too partialized a description.

      This could be said, yes. The 'action' of Primordial Mind seems to be
      living and unchanging intention; thus all manifestations 'produced'
      are the direct product of that intention. If this is seen, one may
      look 'upstream' and by knowing the nature of what has been produced,
      intuit the producer.

      We are the fruits of the action of Primordial Mind, as is everything.
      We need only (IMO) recognize the economy of form and the unity of
      function of 'everything', to appreciate the intention of Primordial
      Mind. If this is done, as an experiment, much fear and ambiguity may
      be removed.

      This is to state that the intention of Primordial Mind seems to be,
      to reproduce itself. It 'wants' to do this through the creation of
      biological hosts for itself. Each host must go through processes of
      becoming; at a certain point of maturation of a biological host, the
      illusion of individual selfhood vanishes (at least for a pregnant
      moment) and the raw power and knowing of the intention of Primordial
      Mind flashes into place, in the very space which was inhabited by the
      long-suffering 'me'-construct.

      This event, should it occur, evidences the impersonal nature of
      Primordial Mind; yet, it is Primordial Mind which sets into play,
      conditions which incubate the 'me'-construct, only to displace it, at
      that certain phase of maturity.

      It is not too surprising that humans have attached vast superstitious
      significance to this function (enlightenment) of human design; humans
      attach vast significances to many things. The entire issue of
      'enlightenment' could be very much simplified, if it could be
      understood that it is 'inevitable', a phase of maturation, rather
      than the product of 'doing'. This clearer understanding could take
      the place of all of the putative 'ways'.

      But we still need 'ways'; and it is significant that so many ways
      point to the same change of phase in perception. I see the need for
      dissemination of understandable advisories among the human
      population, which would outline what can be expected, universally, by
      humans. A chart with a general timeline, descriptions of 'changes' as
      they typically occur, could act as a means of discharging both
      superstitious attraction and dread, and allow people to make
      preparations for transition from phase to phase.

      This would of course be interpreted as an assault upon 'organized
      religion', and could spell the end of the control of culture by
      religion. We have already seen that one clear person can shake the
      religious establishments of the world, and even overturn them.

      Because the Matrix defines time,
      perception, and point of view,
      for a creature in the Matrix,
      the 'action' of 'forming'
      is entirely imperceptible,
      timeless, immeasurable,
      unspeakable, and *not*.

      What *is*, thus *is not*
      (from point of view within
      Matrix) and what is taken to "be"
      (i.e. the experiential
      point of view within
      the Matrix) *is not*

      Primordially Minded
      until the very End,

      You seem to understand the logic of the illogic of 'normal'
      perception; I am trying to put together a 'workaround' for that
      boggle of thought.

      In a high-level philosophy course which I attended, the instructor
      suggested that a person is incapable of seeing what they had never
      seen before. At the time, I thought he was either mistaken, or just
      trying to jog his students into thinking-mode. I see now, that he was
      right. This is especially true, if such a seeing (of what was never
      seen before) would entail seeing something which would prove
      conclusively, that everything previously seen, had been entirely
      misinterpreted. This sort of event of seeing is feared and shunned,
      but the proponents of 'enlightenment' have stated a dare to everyone
      at large, and have worked very hard to make that shattering (yet
      liberating) seeing a worthy goal to attain.

      Unfortunately, by making a goal of what is natural, a lot of 'doing'
      is prescribed which has come to be seen as necessary to the
      'attainment' of that seeing. It is as though people have been tricked
      into believing that there is a 'technique' for breathing, when in
      fact breath is a gift, as is 'enlightenment'. It is the very
      intricacy of the advocacy of enlightenment, which has become a major
      barrier to the 'attainment' which is advocated. It is no wonder that
      'seeking the sacred' has ramified into a veritable Tower of Babel,
      and is seen as unapproachable by so many.

      Worse is the equating of 'enlightenment' with 'being good'. We have
      seen historically, and perhaps even personally, that 'enlightenment'
      is in itself, not a guarantee of 'goodness'. What many have failed to
      understand though, is that 'being good' is itself, not a key to
      'becoming enlightened'. 'Being good' (obeying scriptural or other
      precepts) is not a criterion of enlightenment, just as always
      speaking in a way that is grammatically correct, does not guarantee
      that what is spoken is wisdom.

      It is time to dissolve the assumptions as to 'what is enlightenment';
      it is time to liberate the concepts, as well as the people. Hidebound
      traditionalists continue to enforce conditions and criteria, using
      moral precepts to instill fear and ambition into the population. If
      one can understand that there are no conditions or criteria, one is
      also liberated from the bondage of belief and path.

      We as living vulnerable creatures have sensitivities which act as
      sense-boundaries, which in themselves define our ethics and thus laws
      derived from ethics, but we have institutionalized our sensitivities
      into codified laws, and have put those laws into authority over
      ourselves. For ages, this has been the case with the religious
      framing of the experience of 'becoming enlightened'. Prophets and
      sages who claim communion with God are given authority; thus, those
      desiring authority often try to convince us of their own moral
      superiority, so we will put them in authority over us. The historical
      replay of this predictable scenario is now being discussed in the
      ongoing 'Hitler' threads. I am happy to see this, and to hope that a
      linkage of thought can be made between the advent of unreasonable
      authority, and the traditionally enforced (putative) criteria of

      There 'is' an existing yet unseen 'technology' which is able to use
      the very power of entropy to reproduce from 'nothing', entire
      Universes, thus to escape entropy. Our human situation hovers
      somewhere between the realization of that 'technology' and utter
      extinction. Drawing upon our own nature, we are able to see though
      the welter of beliefs which obscure a clearer vision of our nature.
      If we see deeply enough into our nature, we will see that we have
      access to the power of creation itself.

      ==Gene Poole==

      Gene-ji -- a dream Genie,

      Thank you for your response.

      Resonating with your perceptions
      and clarity.

      The biological computer may
      end the "me-entity" as
      artificial reference point.

      The computer will then do what it does.

      This biological unit is simply
      performing its assigned tasks.

      "What is alive" is this edgeless
      universe. Uncreated, nonreplicating,
      all that is. A biological unit
      functioning as soil for Unknown birth,
      for/as Uncreated Acausal that doesn't
      depend on any biological unit. Playing
      its puppets -- yet the violin string
      *is* the concert that is played!

      Every biological unit is allowed/must be
      temporary universe. How poetic!

      The biological unit will end,
      and its tasks will have been

      The living universe, beginningless,

      Now that's a horse of
      a different color,
      as Dorothy was told.

      Nonreplicable uncreated,
      expressing this instant
      as "uniqueness", yet replicating
      infinitely in endless
      creativity and universes,

      This edgeless universe is
      performing a dance.
      The dance is to be held
      in your living room.
      A request is made
      for your full


      Ed Geless

      I enjoyed the communication but certainly won't provoke - with a mind
      becoming as transparent to stimuli as the air is to light, responses will
      become rare or "on request" only :)

      TIM JANE:

      I went for a walk today, has anyone seen I walking? sorry.I went for a
      walk to let all imformation ive recieved lately to integrate and i came
      across a dead rabbit on my path. The following is what came to mind as a
      result of this encounter.

      Bodies are 60, 70, 80, 90 year leases, if you are lucky, or unlucky,
      depending on ones viewpoint.

      One day, always today, recognition may dawn that oneself is not only the
      tenant,( physical existance as a body) - but both the tenant and the
      landlord,ie (source)

      The landlords house is meaningless, from the tenants point of view,
      without the tenant in it, experiencing its dimensions, and the tenants
      existence without the recognition of the landlord, could be seen as constant
      action with very little meaning or significance, or overview,or essential
      peace abiding rest, or stillness..

      But what a dance, and what a glory, to allow full willingness to live in
      house, and experience its dimensions, knowing that all the time, one is the

      Far out, wicked, cool.
      P.S. I honour and thank the bunnys discourse today- The teaching
      Tim J. aka cornishlegend.


      I thought your question was about people like yourself and me, not about
      enlightened ones

      seems you know something about the difference about
      yourself, me and the enlightened ones, do you know??

      please will you share your insights with

      most satsang-teachers find visitors
      right in time in tune with existence
      how else to treat a buisiness than as buisiness?

      what people ask for
      has to be sold.

      Sarlo here on the list has a system (LOL)
      to judge teachers like you, me and everybody

      every step to freedom is done out of
      deeper frustration and dependency.

      The difference between myself, you, and the
      enlightened ones is that I'm the one
      who is suffering here ;-)

      You know what I find interesting is that there really is no enlightening
      anybody else. People are gonna get it when they're gonna get it. And no
      one knows how or when that is going to occur. The spiritual path is each
      person's individual life itself, like a fruit on a tree each one ripens
      and falls. In other words, it's a totally private affair. There is no
      teaching. Should come as a shock to some of you guys who are looking for
      a teaching, or even worse, those of you who think you've found one!!! A
      sobering affair.

      Happy Days,

      Namaste, Judi.

      As there's no where to
      get it from, where
      else could it possibly

      Dear Judi

      The biggest shock comes for those who belief they are giving a teaching..

      I recall someone asking Shri Ramana why he did't give sannyas to people..he
      replied... who's going to give sannyas to whom....

      In your case love forever

      Rent has to be paid,
      the fuel pump won't work
      because I tell it I'm enlightened,
      the electric company
      won't accept a
      quote from Ramana
      as payment.

      Money and business aren't
      problematic in and of

      It's the identification
      with money as a "show"
      of my worth, and
      the preoccupation
      with status that
      turn money and
      business into
      problematic situations.

      Hello Dearest Nobody and Dearest Somebodies
      or Nobodies in Particular,
      and others who are in between and both at the same time, etc.

      We have a program for certifying Satsanghers.
      It is the best program available currently in the market.
      Nobody can beat us and I mean Nobody!
      We can make you competitive with Ram Tzu, Ramesh, and the whole bunch and
      Gangaji and her uncles and whoever else.
      You name them and we will make you their peer.

      Our Motto is: Enlightenment! We practically give it away!

      Sign up fees and a three year contract required.
      Everything waived if you click below and join now.
      Thanks and have a nice day.


      All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,
      perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside
      back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than
      the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.
      Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is
      where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal
      Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously
      arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to HarshaSatsangha.

      Dear Dan,

      yes, "I " am the one who is suffering here! This "I" is always and
      the only one who is suffering here.

      And at the same time this "I" is needed (this is what "I" believe) to
      function in the world of maya, in the world of duality.

      I started the spiritual search in order to leave the world
      of suffering and found

      "only being - no one to find and nothing to be found"
      as you once stated here in NDS. (What I love by the way very much!)

      So refered to the ZEN story of the nine bulls: the bull was back
      and "I" wanted to celebrate it in the pub in the village. For this
      the "I" is needed. So what now?

      Knowing that there is no "I" gives the freedom to experience the "I"
      in a mature way, in a responsible way. Just with the "I", the power
      of experiencing limmited creations, the step from the nines bull to
      the tenth bull is possible and with it the chance to live compassion
      and beauty and integrity.

      A deep friend of mine once said something like: the openess where
      pain enters is the same where bliss enters. So this helps to
      appreciate and feel all limitation "I" create.

      The other way, I found out for me is, to share this with other "I"
      and to remember the together that there is only being and to put the
      intelligence together and make this here and now a place to celebrate.

      I love your poems!!

      love Jutta

      I am Jutta-Helga-Martha, the wife from Piet (I use "his" adress to
      respond... my email-adress right now is not working)

      Dear Jutta,

      Thank you!

      You said well to-the-point:
      "the openness where pain enters is
      the same where bliss enters."

      I heartily agree, and that "openness"
      is only our "real being" itself.

      In the Hebrew scripture it is said,
      "I will take away your heart of stone
      and give you a heart of flesh."

      There is no being beyond "all this".
      "All this" is Being.

      That "I" celebrating at
      the pub, was it "your I",
      or was it "just I"?

      Who is this "I" that is
      never absent from anything
      that happens?

      That which seems shared with "another I"
      is never shared with "another I".

      "I" is "I".

      Thanks for sharing!

      The razor’s edge

      Often I ask myself if I am doing right or if I am doing wrong.
      I think everybody knows this.

      In this process I see the two sides offered by the mind. For
      example: someone is part of a spiritual group, and something
      is required from him, with which he is not feeling at ease.
      Either it is resistance, coming from his neurotic past. In this
      case the teaching is to surrender. Or it is some inner truth,
      for which he has to stand up and open his mouth. In this case
      he has to go for his individual freedom.

      Sheep or lion? What is the teaching?

      Until today I didn’t find an answer, and I suspect, there is no
      answer. Maybe it is not even a problem at all. Because it is not
      possible to go beyond duality.

      And because of this there is no truth in the sense, that a guiding
      inner voice exists. It is spiritual bullshit to believe that something
      is coming out of nothing. In this situation, progress can only be
      made to the degree to which we are conscious and free to decide what
      we want to believe, which means: what we want to experience.

      I have another belief. It is a total contrast to what I wrote before.

      Sometimes I simply know the truth, as if something from the beyond
      is guiding me. I act, and that’s it. No regret. Everybody knows this.


      How do these viewpoints come together?

      I go on the razor’s edge. The razor’s edge is the fine line between
      both sides of duality, and going on it, I find the balance.

      To find the balance I have to fall from the edge, in order to experience
      duality fully. It hurts. I hear the feedback, and I tell you, it is
      not nice sometimes. I climb back.

      When balance comes finally, I hear the voice. It is not god’s voice.
      It is not a voice at all. I cannot find a description, but I stand
      on the razor’s edge, and that‘s what is required from me.

      In the beginning of my spiritual journey I believed enlightenment was
      some sort of paradise without suffering, to be achieved after long and
      hard work. Several years later I believed enlightenment was an under-
      standing. But that changed, too. According to my current belief I see
      enlightenment as an acknowledgement. An acknowledgement that I hear the
      voice. Even me, after all the self-denial and all the pain.

      That doesn’t mean that falling down has stopped. There is much work do
      to. And it hurts more.

      Lucky is the world of duality. Imagine a world of triality. There would
      be no razor’s edge.

      I am especially happy about duality, when I see chicken. Somehow my fate
      seems to be connected to them. Maybe you have read my mail some days
      before. Watching chicken I can have spiritual experiences, but sometimes
      I feel hungry, and that is not at all spiritual or loving, at least not
      from the viewpoint of the chicken. In this case duality appears in form
      of a full stomach.

      Hello nobody east,

      Don't you have a website?


      and a very important link will be added tomorrow:



      needs it


      very exciting link. today i've been thinking about the
      november issue of nonduality salon magazine (the october
      issue is already planned), and as of today, as of this
      afternoon actually, as of this moment, it will be a personal
      artistic endeavor which would look at the odd twists in the
      fabric of the universe, inflicted by nondual players. i'm
      accumulating material for it.



      I was wondering if there are any members of the group who have an
      interest in the aphorisms of Franklin Merrell-Wolff and would like to
      discuss them in some detail. For example, aphorism #6 says:

      "Within the bosom of Consciousness-without-an-object lies the power
      of awareness that projects objects."

      and #7 says:

      "When objects are projected the power of awareness as subject is
      presupposed. Yet Consciousness-without-an-object remains unchanged."

      I feel that I have a rough idea of what he is saying in these two
      aphorisms, but would like to discuss them, and the other 54
      aphorisms, with those who have spent some time contemplating them.

      E-mail me directly at mindworks3@...


      George Rodes

      HANS, SARLO:

      This of course does not give you license to be "helping" the
      masses, as if you are the messiah,

      I am very glad, that Jesus, Osho, Ramana had a very different view-
      point on that issue. Jesus deliberately took the role of the messiah,
      Osho took every role that was needed to create situations for his
      disciples to wake up. The danger comes in, when I get stuck on belief,
      where I believe, I am right.

      I believe the awakened state is not only the license but the duty to
      share with the masses.

      I thought your question was about people like yourself and me, not about
      enlightened ones. All the rules are off with them, but that includes
      "duty" too. I believe that Osho says there are ten arhatas, or eo's that
      don't share with the masses, for every one that does. Now even these guys
      will share in their own way, quietly, but it will not be in the "larger"
      way that those who take on the master/guru role do.

      We come closer to the point where it gets really juicy for me.
      1. Show me where the "I" lives. I haven't found that place yet.

      Ah well, me neither, but failure to find it so far doesn't mean forever.
      This does not constitute proof. I am told variously that it doesn't exist,
      it is an illusion, it is a locking-up of my divine energy, etc.

      2. What is your definition of enlightenment? How does it look like?
      Do you believe, Jesus or Osho in their early days were not as
      incomplete as we are right now? I think it is a process to mature in
      the awakened state.

      Obviously i am not in a position to make rigourous definitions of
      enlightenment. About Jesus, Osho, Ramana and the rest, depends what you
      mean by early days. Before enlightenment, incomplete. After, yes there may
      be some maturation process in the awakened state. When a master
      communicates to people it is to some degree via the mind, at least in
      their public discourses. The mind will be a product of the past and hence
      the communications will be shaped in part by elements of the personality,
      which are no longer identified with but still constitute part of the
      relating tools. They will evolve over time, in this maturation process,
      but this is not me i'm talking about.

      I don't feel complete, therefore i am not complete.

      3. I will not claim to teach masses right now. I am not stupid. But
      eventually I have to turn on as many people as possible, for the
      simple reason, that only me is here and I don't accept any part of me
      to suffer unnecessarily.

      You can't know now how you are going to behave after you awaken. Your
      noble bodhisattva-type vow may disappear in the fire of awakening. Maybe,
      maybe not.

      Osho is just a thought. A creation. As long as I see this thought
      above me I do the greatest disservice to the master, who worked his
      ass off to get me fuckin' awake.

      If i awaken in 10,000 lifetimes it will be soon enough to honour my
      master. My mind says my awakening is needed now because the planet is in
      such terrible shape but it's really not up to me.


      that what I am is whole, still and eternal, unmoving,
      ever present, omnipotent.....

      And I am also a woman and human and wanted to be loved.....

      You are right, nonduality can be "pursued" to the extreme, where what
      could be called "the human interface" loses validity and only Freedom
      reigns. On a more "realistic" level, nonduality is meant to "remove"
      the mal or sense of "I", or more poetically, the river to merge with
      the ocean, knowing that the essence of both the river and the ocean is
      water. From this perspective, human relations can be most fulfilling,
      as one can see the reflection of the ocean in the eyes of a loved one
      and the loved one will see it in your eyes, knowing there is only Love.

      The gifts. The One for the Woman. The Woman for the One. Be both.
      Invite the One for dinner, a marvelous accompaniment to any meal.

      The radical perspective that Oneness permeates all reality and Is The
      Reality cannot be fully embraced unless one is ripe for it. It is not enough
      to say intellectually that I am god.

      Satsangha and spiritual practice set the context to Recognize what One
      Already Is.

      Most religions and traditions speak of practices and behavior that are
      supportive of spiritual aspirations and enlightenment or Self-Realization.
      The seeking of and abidance in the "I AM" awareness indicates the deepest
      longing of the Soul to be in Communion with IT Self.

      To Recognize the Self, the mind needs to become peaceful and calm. An
      agitated mind gets in its own way.

      Right Vision, Right Conduct, and Right Practice are conducive to the mind
      subsiding in the Self. The mind becomes peaceful when we learn to
      distinguish between that which is ever-changing and That which is never

      When we truly learn the difference between the Real and Unreal we do not
      cling because we know it is not possible to possess anything or anyone and
      it is not possible for anyone or anything to possess us. That is wisdom.
      Wisdom is detachment. Detachment does not mean leaving people or going away
      from family and friends. It is simply coming to and
      abiding in your Self while you carry on activities compelled by your nature.
      No one can give up action as compelled by their nature (karmas).

      Right conduct is that conduct which is colored by the feeling of nonviolence
      and amity towards other living beings. It helps to dissolve fear, anger, and
      guilt and makes the mind suitable for higher meditation. Right practice is
      that spiritual practice which reveals the nature of the Self.

      Love to all


      Royal, here's some Rumi.....just for you:

      "The Achemy of Love"

      You come to us
      from another world

      From beyond the stars
      and void of space.
      Transcendent, Pure,
      Of unimaginable beauty,
      Bringing with you
      the essence of love

      You transform all
      who are touched by you.
      Mundane concerns,
      troubles, and sorrows
      dissolve in your presence,
      Bringing joy
      to ruler and ruled
      To peasand and king

      You bewilder us
      with your grace.
      All evils
      transform into

      You are the master alchemist.

      You light the fire of love
      in earth and sky
      in heart and soul
      and every being.

      Through your loving
      existence and nonexistence merge.
      All opposites unite.
      All that is profane
      becomes sacred again.

      (...translated by Deepak Chopra
      and Fereydoun Kia )

      Hafiz sang:

      Will someday split you open
      Even if your life is now a cage,

      For a divine seed, the crown of destiny,
      Is hidden and sown on an ancient, fertile plain
      You hold the title to.

      Love will surely bust you wide open
      Into an unfettered, blooming new galaxy

      Even if your mind is now
      A spoiled mule.

      A life-giving radiance will come,
      The Friend's gratuity will come -

      O look again within yourself,
      For I know you were once the elegant host
      To all the marvels in creation.

      From a sacred crevice in your body
      A bow rises each night
      And shoots your soul into God.

      Behold the Beautiful Drunk Singing One
      From the lunar vantage point of love.

      He is conducting the affairs
      Of the whole universe

      While throwing wild parties
      In a tree house - on a limb
      In your heart.

      Daniel Ladinsky - 'The Subject Tonight is Love'
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