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NDS highlights for Saturday, Sept 16

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  • Melody
    JERRY: The teachings do all start to sound the same. That s my experience as I go from Satsang website to Satsang website. You are pointing out that the
    Message 1 of 1 , Sep 17, 2000

      The teachings do all start to sound the same. That's my
      experience as I go from Satsang website to Satsang website.
      You are pointing out that the Emporer is not as naked as he
      makes out to be. The Emporer is really wearing a leisure
      suit and a bad haircut from 1970. And anyone who imitates
      the Emporer is going to look like a jerk.

      Whatever effort it takes, it's good to stand alone, stand
      free. That effort, as I see it, is spiritual life. For some
      the effort may be a real, hard effort. For others it is an
      unnoticeable movement of attention, or no movement at all.



      Speaking of Heart

      Yes, that's it isn't it.

      Motivation streaming

      Not an arising and a ceasing, but a non-stop heart flow,
      with waves.

      MAZU's post prompted many responses:

      >The teachings of non-duality are profound indeed, with the
      >potential to awaken. Yet, it has appeared to me from experience and
      >in speaking with others, that these teachings are often used as a way
      >to hide. Non-dual concepts are concepts none the less and the once
      >profound concept has been turned into rhetoric by many. When
      >speaking with one interested in non-duality it is most important to
      >get the jargon down. Personal pronouns are most harmful, and of
      >course there is "no effort","no doing", "no birth..no death". Most
      >importantly your "search is over" and if really pressed with a
      >difficult question just ask "Who wants to know?" But has one
      >realized this...most often NO. If you are asking "Well, who is there
      >to realize anything?", you are definately a hider. There is also the
      >more subtle who you will most likely find giving a retreat or satsang
      >in an area close to you, who are attached to consciousness. They
      >hold to this "beingness" which is wholely due to the vital principle
      >for dear life. It wasn't present before or after birth.
      >Unfourtunately, they get students to rest(attached) in this vital
      >principle and "not do anything.. no one to do it." Then there are
      >geniune teachers who for some reason trap themselves in the language
      >of non-duality. They say "You are free from the beginning", then the
      >student says "I am Free!" Now we have another retreat coming to an
      >area close to you. The whole point is you have to hold sincerity and
      >answer to death(forget no birth..not death). I'm sorry to upset all
      >those resting in their beingness..doing nothing. And those false
      >teachers who look sincerely might have to get a new job.


      This is why there must be devotion, surrender.
      Not only knowledge. My my my, my self, my world, my realization, my
      my this that and the other....
      Namaskar (I give my heart to you.)

      And I don't mean bhakti to some "enlightened" individual or
      that's hiding too.


      I enjoyed your point of view and I can totally relate to what you are
      saying. I want to answer you even though I am not a Satsang teacher
      and only on the very first steps to be a realised being. The glimpses
      of non-duality and the seeing that there is no I has enabled me to
      feel my patterns in daily life where I get identified. Before there
      was just denial. It is like in a house when the light is coming then
      you can start the clean up. It is my belief that only I can do the
      cleaning process and it does not help to say there is no I.

      I get some understanding of what perhaps the Tibetans mean when they
      say the Gods can stay there for hundreds of life times, in order to
      become a Buddha they have to come to the human realm again.

      Enjoyed both Mazu's original post and your and Andrew's responses,
      agreement always, for me, feels better than disagreement. For me, at
      there is a constant sense of amazement and validation of the 'name'
      to my chosen path or method when others arrive at the same perceptions
      as I
      hold from a different angle or path. This is also to say that these
      perceptions and agreement may be replaced with others of a more
      comprehensive nature. This, to me, is one small aspect of
      'surrender'. I
      have found, however, that even though these replacements of
      have occurred, on whatever small level, that the former understandings
      remained true, for who 'I' was at that time although they are
      The rungs of a ladder, so to say.

      Remaining open, to the best of my ability, begging Patience when
      failing in
      this effort

      In the circus.. first it was primal.. everyone was a primal
      after a 2 week training, then bodywork of one sort or another, again
      two or
      three week training, then came channeling...oh channelling whow
      again a weekend course, then came Reki, whom amn feel the energy....
      this... then that... all 2 or three weekend long trainings.. farout
      man...whow... lets do it... and now... it's.. wait for it............
      satsang...... yeh.. it would appear that most of these dudes have no
      training in offering such a serious sport..what will be next in


      Thank you for your reply. You are quite correct in saying that it
      little good claiming there is "no I", like some kind of affirmation.
      Moreover, when one has realized "no I" , this is when one enters the
      Many teachers tell students they are finished at this point. It
      amazes me how these teachers say the truth is unlimited, and then set
      limiting it. I would like to add that while the experience of "no I"
      certainly not an affirmation, there is something to be said about
      loyal to what one has experienced. There is also a absolute refusal
      divide oneself, that stems from a one pointed sense of urgency. One
      stick with their sincerity, which is what made them a seeker before
      heard all the spiritual jargon. People like yourself melt my heart,
      and it
      makes me angry when teachers let sincere people settle for less than
      complete awakening, with full integrity. All of my Love, and best
      wishes to you. Go, go, beyond the beyond.

      Thank you also for your reply. I agree with you fully that the
      realisation that there is “no I” is where one enters the
      path. Not many Satsang teachers here in Germany would agree with it.
      When I look to the east to traditions like Zen or Tibetans they did
      not speak about enlightenment very often. The focus was on the work,
      on the Sadhana. For me it feels sometimes like an enlightened
      kindergarten in the west. And like you also others are pointing to the
      way. It is my believe that we have to find a western way, we cannot
      copy the east to realise how you call it complete awakening, with full


      I can very much relate to the point you are making. For me just to
      speak endlessly about the "No I" in a nice Satsang surrounding is a
      complete lie. It is of course something which needs to be realized
      but then...

      It is my experience that after realizing the "No I"-ness I had to
      make a decision: whether to build a nice no-I-castle where finally
      nobody can touch me anymore or to look with the help of this
      realization at my inner world. I feel that the realization helps
      immensly to bring the house in order. Then the real joy starts - when
      I take the light and bring it in every dark corner of myself.

      Dear Mazu, dear Pou and everybody else who believes this to be an
      important point to discuss,

      What is the point of being here on planet earth?
      Waking up to the fact that there is no separate I. Of course.

      In my so called path I very often have found psychological states
      where I wanted to rest and finally identify with it.
      As we all know, that doesn't work because the other side of the coin
      Pou wrote so eloquently about the psyche in the awakening, how the
      attention wants to identify with the emptiness, the none and ignore
      the still wounded and confused psyche.
      I am still creating and still see the world through the mind. And I
      still experience the consequences of my believes and the resistance,
      addiction, denial...

      Not to use the awakened state to explore the beliefs and wounds and
      to share with other human beings is wasting the gold and still an ego-
      I believe existance will hit you in the face when you try to fuck
      With no I you can kill, rape, whatever every asshole can do.
      I heard somebody saying each idiot can get enlightened. I totally
      When I see there is only me acting how can I not get involved in my
      creations? How? Just sitting around and let things happen is also an
      action and an ego-state.
      At this point the awakened state becomes poison.


      Dear all,
      very good point. It seems here in Germany, especially Munich,
      to be the new fashing to give Satsang. There are mature and
      profound ones, but also some which seem to deepen the
      collective trance and treat Satsang as a business.
      Keeping people in a narcotic entertainment throws many
      in deeper frustration and dependency.
      The spiritual advanced subtle ego uses every opportunity to
      parade itself.
      for whom is this happening,
      who are you
      There is no I
      My experience was that this kept me for years in an victim
      identity and lethargy till it got too much and "I" stopped it.
      When I am the source, then from this I can change everything.
      Thanks for bringing this perspective in.


      this "doing nothing"- another concept, another identifikation, a
      stuckness to deney the human side in englightenment?!
      By God it´s a lot to do day in and day out to experience, to feel
      creations, to find my hidden beliefs, to share it, to take
      responsibility for my mistake....I could go on....and always knowing,
      that there is no I!!!!
      And it makes fun, tears are running, crying, laughing...God wants


      I remember a couple of years back, periodically going into these
      states of no-mind and bliss, and when they went away feeling utterly
      frustrated, and one time immediately after this had happened, I asked
      an 'enlightened' friend in desperation,literally, 'What can I do?'

      What I got from them was the kind of answer Mazu is talking
      about, 'Who is it (the experience of no-mind) going to go away for?'
      What I feel now, and this has really come from reading this dialogue
      on 'seekers and hiders', is that that kind of answer does contain a
      kind of smugness, that immediately creates separation between the one
      speaking and the one being spoken to, that sets them apart. The
      sentence is an enlightened concept.

      At the time of this event I am describing, I remember I was actually
      impressed by the remark but felt very stupid because I didn't get it,
      and I was trying to hold onto the experience even though I knew I
      couldn't. And I was left thinking that this person was in some way
      special, that they had something I didn't have and I was trying
      desperately to work out what it was!

      I also have to admit that I went through a phase when I felt I
      couldn't use the personal pronoun, 'I' without it feeling odd and on
      occasions have also used questions like the one above, that Mazu
      talks about. (Guilty!) Sometimes it has felt there has been
      communication, other times not, so it is clearly not in the words.

      SO, and this is the point I want to come to, 'What could this person
      I speak of above have said in the situation I have described?' It is
      this whole, I call it ability, of sending the mind back to it roots,
      using concepts to point out the concepts. Replacing the object with
      the subject - all of that. It seems to be this is what a 'real
      satsang teacher' has to be able to do - and what we are on about.
      Some of the traditional teachings from the East, I believe, have been
      that the Master/Teacher can simply demonstrate or represent
      enlightenment. (I have some beliefs in this area!)



      The word that isn't in any dictionary
      would sound like "edgelessness"
      if it were to speak itself, and
      would unsay each sound in the
      process of being articulated



      As is often said, "there is no place to go, nothing to do, in fact,
      you are is the best place for you, [because your life reflects your
      (this is a Fourth Way saying)]". To reject this is to deny what 'is'.
      'IS'ness, acceptance of 'IS'ness, in my understanding, is a door out
      of the
      dualistic experience. The key to this door, however, is a complex
      combination lock for some, for others, the door may never have been



      How deeply I looked I
      could only find me being responsible, no one else. And this is good
      A good friend told me, the time for "my little enlightenment" is over.



      It really is a question of honesty in all communication to see and
      "admit" that communication itself is an action only possible in
      duality and that duality is in fact the medium to use for any action..
      This seems a good moment to say how much I appreciate the
      possibilities of this Egroup. Also impossible in nonduality.
      isn't nonduality only the other part of duality , same as the famous
      darkness and light? so what are we doing here, cementing concepts of
      awakened states or like a cat hunting its tail trying to find a state
      that is without concept? I honestly believe, that is impossible, so
      lets live life the best we can.



      It is reported that Sir...Winston Churchill is famous for having said
      about Hitler.. 'this is not the beginning of the end.. this is the end
      the beginning.. Every morning we/I awaken into conscious awareness..
      is the beginning of creation for as 'i' arise.. the world.. and all of
      creation arises with me/you.. I asked.. and asked.. 'am I in the
      ?...or is the world in me..?' If you are serious about arriving at
      conclusion of the question re entropy.. where the question
      dissolves.. into
      the answer.. and that which is asking the question.. Dissolves into
      answer... then ask this question 'am I in the world or is the world
      me'.. mind.... always goes to look for the answer..the question of
      entropy.. or who am I? ends with the realisation there never was an
      answer... for the answer was asking question all along...



      Where is this place "duality"?

      How far off is this place "nonduality"?

      What separates these places from
      each other?

      Ah, these impossible possibilities:
      I walk on the grass and feel a breeze.
      I sit in my office typing.
      I wake up in the morning.
      I go to sleep at night.


      When there is mastery, there is a kind of control and control
      presupposes a kind of doership. When surrendering, one thinks to give
      up pleasure and pain, like and dislike etc. but in reality one gives
      up the notion of "I". When this notion has left, "natural" tendencies
      reveal themselves and can be enjoyed; when not, they will burn out



      speaking of zen--in case any of you
      hundreds of lurkers live in Tastykake
      land--the Phila Buddhist Assoc. is going
      to be studying Hui Neng's sutra (Platform
      Sutra) all year beginning Oct 11- ie 2nd
      Weds of each month--PBA is very nice, eclectic
      group offering meditation and various programs,
      free of charge(donations welcome) they meet
      sundays at Haverford college and Weds at
      Radnor Friends Meeting--details , directions etc


      JERRY had written:

      >So perhaps a good way to communicate spiritual interests to a friend
      >or colleague is to do it in terms of what your bond is. If your bond
      >isn't spiritual, you can't get spiritual on a person. You can only
      >go deeply into the bond you have and let the other person see you as
      >honestly as possible.

      GENE responds:

      I find that offering what appeals to the suppressed selfishness or
      actual acute need of an individual, will produce a fruitful opening.

      If a one is suffering, the need for relief makes receptive what
      otherwise would be only casual interest, laced with the mockings of
      one who still suffers the hidden disease of narcissistic assumptions
      of immortality. There is nothing like acute suffering and the fear of
      more suffering, or even the fear of death, to provoke an opportunity
      for openness and education.

      It is interesting to observe just how the intoxication of immaturity
      loses its power, when actual suffering is being experienced.
      Unaccustomed sobriety dawns, as an aid to going the right direction.

      Those of us who are acutely sensitive by nature, suffer even at the
      thought of the sufferings of others; for such a sensitive one, the
      question and the sobriety are a constant. Casual attitude has been
      totally abandoned. One who has accepted the reality of suffering for
      many years, learns to use suffering as an unerringly accurate guide
      to seeing.

      When cleverness has been disproved, when the insulation of numbness
      has lost it effectiveness, and when the gates of mortality are seen
      to swing open, an individual will do what is required, what is
      specified by nature; the next step will be taken.

      If this step is taken without thought to 'alternative pathways', if
      there is no question of commitment ("as though" one's life depends),
      the Universe gifts clear unadulterated awareness; and the next step
      is then illuminated, and the next, as long as there is full
      uncontested acceptance of the apparent reality of "Dukkha".*

      As long as there is 'Dukkha', there is becoming, but there is no
      becoming without Being. Being is primary; without Being, there is no
      becoming, and becoming is stimulated by Dukkha.

      "What is" is thus Being becoming, as stimulated by Dukkha. The case
      that Being precedes becoming, is both uncontestable and continually

      If attention is given to abiding, neither desire nor aversion 'will'
      push one out of balance. Both desire and aversion are the essence of
      Dukkha; thus it is seen that attention to abiding is a response to
      the troublesome companion Dukkha, which as long as it 'exists', is
      secretly our best friend. Our best friend points out not only the
      need for equanimity in the face of changing circumstances, but also
      competently brings home the essence of what happens when that poise
      of abiding is lost, even for an instant.

      True selfishness is known as 'enlightened self-interest', and is thus
      "of Self". Self demands constant, as opposed to sporadic, expression,
      but it must be understood that this constant expression is of Self by
      Self to Self, rather than of self to other. Internal knowing of the
      constant of the dynamic of abiding, is a learned expression of Self,
      denuded of any meaning given to the play of circumstance. Thus, this
      abiding is the expression of Self, a continual dynamic (moving)
      expression of Being (life).

      The example of the uncompromising expression of abiding, is seen and
      recognized by others, as a language which precedes any level of
      symbol-manipulation. One who is this constant expression of Self, is
      thus speaking loudly, a language of which we are everyone, native
      speakers. We all recognize and respond to expression of abiding Self.



      When one is no
      longer looking for confirmation of Love(through thought,feeling,etc.),
      then is there no duality involved. This takes a profound trust.


      > >"What is" just "IS" - both mandatory and "forbidden" denote
      >authority. Surrender is possible due to insight or Love;
      >unconditional surrender entirely does away with the sense for

      GENE: Might I add (as the one who started the whole
      'forbidden/mandatory' thing);

      Like one of those little plastic puzzles, wherein you must move
      squares around to form a certain order. The squares may have letters,
      numbers, or may form a picture. The difficulty is, there is only one
      blank area in which to move any single square, and any movement of
      any square, disturbs the order already achieved.

      Without a clear idea of what the pattern should be, any movement is
      random attempt to succeed.

      If there is a clear idea of what the pattern should be, there is
      still difficulty, somehow analogous to 'quantum indeterminacy', in
      that any attempt to determine (know) results in a change of the whole

      It is 'forbidden' to mess with the puzzle, but it is 'mandatory' to
      mess with the puzzle.

      In world-dream 'reality', 'Dukkha' (the assumption that something is
      wrong with the way the puzzle looks) stimulates action. If the puzzle
      were locked, no movement would be possible. But the puzzle cannot be
      locked, and instead, an overpowering command is given (FORBIDDEN!)
      which evokes anxiety in one who tries to change the way the puzzle
      looks. Any change which is attempted, produces feedback of chaos; all
      subsequent attempts are then more and more toward producing 'order',
      of a sort imagined by one who has never seen the completed puzzle.

      Big paradigms have been proposed, each of which is advertised to be
      an accurate map to 'correcting' the puzzle, to move things around
      into the proper order, to make everything clear.

      What has been missing from most of these grand cosmological/spiritual
      paradigms is the realization that the 'forbidden' is a 'red herring';
      that is to say, that people who suffer, naturally love the challenge
      to reduce or remove suffering, and that the 'forbidden' is bait. One
      who touches the puzzle 'falls from grace' and produces chaos (evicted
      from Eden). But this may be the only ('unenlightened') way to really
      understand that nothing need be changed. Authority is passed to the
      'Devil', the commander of the forces of Dualism.

      (Interestingly, the Devil (AKA Satan) is thus seen to be in the chain
      of command.)

      To make a long story shorter, it is eventually realized that the
      puzzle and the need to fix it are both parts of the same conspiracy
      to provoke individuals into action, to aspire to mastery, to indulge
      in the folly of the fool who becomes wise, etc etc etc.. Perfection
      in the first case is now able to be seen, in retrospect. Perhaps the
      best advise to be given (if any) to newborns of Eden, is 'don't
      move'. On the other hand, would you give up your wisdom for eternal
      safety from Chaos?

      In any event, one cannot go 'back' to perfection. There is no call
      for regret. Wrong choices are punished impersonally; correct choices
      result in upgrade in ability to choose. Eventually this conditioning
      process results in a sober, balanced person, who does not fall for
      trickery. This person will not necessarily offer evidence of any
      sort, which would lead another to freedom. Instead, what may be
      offered are misleading clues, to intensify the 'search' and thus
      speed all on their ways.


      Stepping out of the game,
      sitting on the sidelines,

      watching the players
      in helmets move by;

      all thoughts of winning
      and losing,

      and defending,

      give way to

      a 'falling in love'
      with the arena

      and a cool, crisp Saturday afternoon.



      Some years ago I used to do the mirror meditation a lot and at one
      point in a meditation camp I looked into a mirror and saw the eyes of
      love looking back at me. Since then I know that I am love, for me
      consciousness is love.



      True, thoughts and feelings are the result of identifications. Some
      are hard-wired like hunger, thirst, sleep, and cannot be given up
      whereas others can be classified as "ghosts of the mind" and given up.
      In this category falls one's entire sadhana too, therefore the saying
      "remove one thorn by another and throw away both".



      For a long time I thought non-doing is the answer, very easy - I
      just "do" it´- had good times, had bad times with it. India is a
      ground for pracitising.
      Then back to the West - the whole lot of frentic acting started
      again - just being like anybody else around....the same as in India!!!

      Now: There is lots to do and lots to undo - still, the gold is known
      and the fear standing next to it: what to do if nothing comes? - or:
      The unknown wants to walk in, may be I'm busy or may be elsewhere
      dreaming, forgetting that God is knocking and wants some tea?

      I found out that "God wants to have tea not with sugar but with fun"
      and me, too!! He doesn't care what I do, if I simply do with love.



      The illusion that
      we tell ourselves is that if we decided to, we
      could do what we decided. All this talk of
      whether we should do something or not is
      just pouring of the empty into the void. I set
      a resolution and when I fail to keep it, I tell
      myself that I never really wanted to do it in
      the first place. I change the resolution to fit
      what actually happens.

      One small proof: try to keep your attention
      from one stop sign till the next. If you are
      like me, and I am not anything more or less
      than ordinary, you won't be able to do it.
      Until you can actually exercise the attention
      muscle, talk of taking responsibility is just



      > Sometimes the seeker coming to some "enlightened" individual is
      > hiding his non-agreement with what
      > the "enlightened" one says or does. Is hiding his own intelligence
      > and his own opinions, considering that the "enlightened" one
      > is "further" than himself. Cause who would be satisfied with an
      > answer to a question like "How come the world is such a mass, if God
      > is everything? - "There is no I, so who is asking the question in
      > first place?" - "It is all Samsara". Great answers, thank you.
      > And the "enlightened" one is hiding, cause he has actually no answer
      > to this kind of questions.

      I wonder if there is an honest verbal answer to such a question
      (except "I don't
      know.") Any answer is not true, it's just a ruse which if skillful
      points the
      questioner back at themself.



      If your house was on fire, you would get out.
      You wouldn't give a rats behind if you were doing or not doing.
      you wouldn't spend time discussing exit routes. It is my not that
      contention that until one really realizes they are in a burning house,
      will not have the sense of urgency and one pointedness that is
      imperative to
      awaken profoundly. Someone who has this perspective does not have
      time to
      worry about doing or non doing. I know to the core, that anyone
      in these matters like yourself, has a burning sincerity. Don't let
      ink on a
      page get in your way. Most of these half baked teachers will be
      burning to
      death in the house, "not doing" much of anything


      TIM JANE:

      TIM JANE:
      Now this is where the beautiful, ultimate sincere testing ground tests
      and what is that? DEATH. Oh, yes, death finds out what concepts one
      gained from experience, and what one has spent there life talking
      about, but
      not actually knowing.
      Death, a place where all borrowed concepts will vanish, before one
      even has
      chance to look for them. Death will find out just what understanding
      one has
      It may not be impressed with old hat cliches, that sounded good once
      upon a
      time, and what one once agreed with.
      Asking who is there to realize anything? can sometimes be a neat trick
      avoidance, but avoiding what?maybe ones death.
      Presuming one is dead is not good enough, one has to die.
      With awakening, slowly, slowly,one can learn the art, but what a
      mistake to
      presume one already has it.
      Are you hiding? or are you seeking? yes wonderfull, provocative,
      question, but disturbing only those who are still invested in the lie.



      Experience, your learned
      art, intuition and circumstances will conspire to let you know when it
      appropriate to be sharing your experiences with others and passing on



      Take a good hard look at why you are miserable. You are miserable
      because you are
      selfish. You are really obnoxious. You are on a power trip to satisfy
      your own egotistical desires. And, what is really obnoxious about it,
      that you try to disguise this egotistical behavior by being
      unconditional even! Phew! Stinky! That is what I had to look at in
      myself, it was not a pretty sight.


      Judi quotes RUMI:

      "Wherever there is ruin, there is hope for treasure -
      Why do you not seek the treasure of God in the wasted heart?"
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