Lots and lots of great posts on the NDS today, many more could have been included in
Thanks to all who wrote in response to "A Place".
"A Place" update:
Donnie Botkin is coming this week to level the ground. Jerry Varner
is cutting six 12 foot and three 18 foot yellow locust poles for the
structural supports sometime this week. Chuck Neeley, the portable
saw mill, guy was here last night and we figured out we'll need around
3,400 board feet of lumber for the constuction. He will be here in
about two weeks to fell the trees and saw up the lumber. He uses a
Belgian draft horse for pulling the logs from the forest to the saw
mill. Steve Varner should be here shortly with his tractor and auger
to make three foot deep foundation holes for erecting the yellow
locust poles. The lumber will be stacked, chinked for air circulation
between the boards and left to dry and season over the Winter so it
will be ready for Spring construction. All is progressing nicely
especially since I am able to get all this stuff coordinated seemingly
without effort. Life flows on. Really, "I" don't do It --- It just
happens. It's unbeleiveable compared to the way I used to "was". No
problems just "isness". Big joke actually. Har di har har. :)
Learning lots about all the mysterious things involved in construction.
I'll start posting digital photos of the land and construction from
time to time in the HarshaSatsangh@egroups.com
files. That is if I
ever get my replacement digital camera back.
Retreating, once again, to my burrow for the time being.
Peace and happiness,
Our relationships are fraught
with attachment, often those
we profess to love are really
those upon whom we are
psychologically dependent --
for self-esteem reinforcement,
sex, to deal those of life's
vicissitudes that we find
distasteful or otherwise
arduous, etc. Actual love is
of an entirely different ilk,
isn't it? Attachment pains us
when our children leave us to
flourish in the world, love
kisses them goodbye and exults
in their adventure.
Much love -- Bruce
The heart is a tornado.
No one knows its path.
Neither located in "this"
Neither "here" nor "there",
this love is aware
of nothing other.
The road to hell is paved
with good intentions.
The flames of hell are the
barbecue party of all
the "improving selves".
Dear everyone in the Nonduality Salon,
I'm new here and I've enjoyed reading the different viewpoints
and contributions so much because of the underlying feeling
of LOVE that does allow everything - not only the "goodies".
I'm feeling touched by the warm welcomes and can also under-
stand when someone says, What does this rambling have to do
with the work I myself can only do?
I'm German and you might call me a shame-based person. Maybe
being born into Germany is just a wonderful starting point (call
it excuse) for feeling lots of shame... I wonder.
For me it's about feeling all that which I would have loved to
keep projected out there (which I used to call evil, odd, ugly
and so on) AND at the same time becoming able to express myself
in words. Getting out onto this stage, showing myself with the
frailties and uncertainties, while knowing the ONE consists of
light and darkness, is a challenge and a remedy at the same time.
In this sense I'm sending you my love.
Dear all members,
I am new in this nonduality salon and just now I am starting to read
I need a little bit of time to find my way of participating but one
subject is of interest right now.
Ralf called it the dark self or dark side. We know there is no dark
and there is no light side, these are all concepts, but concepts are
needed to experience life on the planet earth.
What comes up around the Hitler discussion is for me the importance
to find the shadows, the Hitler also in me. And there is were the
work begins, before the enlightment and also after enlightment.
To become conscious about the misuse of power, hate, megalomania...
only some creations of existance means also to feel it. To feel it as
God's creation and then it's not needed to project it outside, to
create an outside-Hitler.
I am not interested in enlightend people, who speak only of bliss and
light and cover their other side, because to go beyond the duality
you have to experience both sides - this is the game of the world. A
master said: To be in the world but not of the world.
Participating fully on the planet as a human being, and as a human
being to feel all kind of feelings in the rememberance of who I am.
So hard just to say something about the non-dual, the non-
As I sit here, I fall into it.
So easy to enjoy the moment. Moment to moment. Moment to moment.
What does it take to communicate?
One thing moves me.
What do you think of this?
I was in Assisi recently. I read - astonished, aghast - EVERYTHING
the man St Francis preached his lovers did diametrically the opposite.
Praise of poverty - they build a church
Be one with the people - they create a special order
Be the simplicity and ordinariness of nature - they stick him on a
And then they howled in agony when I left the body.
And then they treated their sadness as a punishment
Somewhere I can't stand it.
What moves you?
I wrote this this morning
Dear Non-Duality Salon
Reading, for the first time, different offerings on this website this
evening, I am feeling into its tone, 'getting' and feeling the
uniqueness of all the contributors and what you each bring.
Feeling the rules - or lack of them.
What do I find? A LOT of humour ..... passion and caring,
seriousness, poetry and clever words disappearing the mind. Meetings
of minds. Meetings on other levels. One thing growing out of
another. Inclusion. Commitment to all of what is. And the
human issues arise. Cultural patternings and pasts and other
viewpoints emerging and being met with honesty and willngness. A
lot to be felt and admired and appreciated.
I have a couple of questions arising: What effect does a website
like this have on it all? And what motivates people in the 'non-
dual generation' to want to communicate like this, other than
because 'That's what consciouness wants.' Motivation. I am
interested in this question of motivation. What do people receive
from contributing on this website that they don't get anywhere else?
> Hello all,
> after spending the last 20 years again and again being confronted with the
> issue of nazism (being raised in East-Germany, total denial there),
I am Polish and live in Poland. I understand well what you mean, also in other
aspect: the issue has been imployed here before 1989 as a "substitude subject" by
the communist propaganda (to divert the attention from the communist issues and
on the basis of "victim role" strenghten the ethnic collectiveness which enabled
easier manipulation - in their oppinion).
> I followed the group discussion very attentively.
> The main point in historical research concerning Hitler is always: How could
> this man (a bad artist, an austrian meaningless private) attract so many
> intelligent people in such a catastrophy? He attracted intellectuals,
> artists, generals , mothers, children ....
This is sth that also used to amaze me. Your remarks two paragraphs below on the
subject seem to explain it quite well.
> Of course you have economical circumstances a lost 1.world war, whatever.
> No personality I believe can be so radiant to destroy half of the world
> within 12 years. Impossible.
> The first KZ (Dachau) was established after 3 month(!) of Hitlers claim to
> power in 1933.
> When I ask the generation of my grandfather about that time I usually get two
> kind of replies: Denial and shame mixed with fascination.
> To be very clear on that point, I am not a Nazi or a right winger or
> anything. I enterd the issue from the other side, from the pain of million
> people killed in KZs. But I always had the feeling this is just half of the
> Hitler is reported to express exactly the common believes of the people just
> listening to him at that moment.
> Who says that the Self is showing up always in light? When I look at old
> films when Hitler was speaking, all I could see was love speaking throuh his
> eyes, no matter how awfully cruel the words were.
> I actually could not see any difference to Osho or Ramana or any great master.
> I heard the master attracts you in the teaching by telling you sweet lies in
> the beginning (confirming your concepts, giving you what your ego needs,
> approval, sex whatever). And give you the axeblow to free you eternally.
> If Auschwitz and the 2nd world war was not an axblow to the whole mankind, I
> don't know what it was.
Yes, the same impression here. When the name of Hitler was mentioned in
a manner I read as casual and, with growing surprise, I saw my emotional reaction,
it was really Auschwitz-Birkenau that was a problem at stake, the still open wound
that triggered this response.
> And this is my point of view as an ashamed German being. We collectively
> cannot stand the fact, that God can give birth to such evil. Through the
> German people. After Schopenhauer, Mozart, Wittgenstein, Goethe, Schiller....
I think, Hans, that you verbalized well the issue where both those with the
"victim complex" and those with the "oppressors complex" meet. I have been
pondering on it for the -enth time for the past few days and I think the problem
lies in the role "understanding" plays or wants to play in the proccess of
Let me quote the fragment of the letter I wrote to Melody yesterday where
I explained and summarized my conclusions:
"The questions that pop up related to the issue (and imo, have neither
psychological, nor philosophical nor spiritual explanation or answer)
are: how was it possible that seemingly normal, ordinary men were
doing such things to other people? Paradoxically, you are more horrified
not by the attrocities performed on the victims, which break your
heart, but by the normality and ordinariness of the opressors, by the coffee
they drank in the mornings, flowers they gave their wives and by the
children sitting on their laps not far away from where other children
were dying behind the fence. I never managed to come to terms with
it, "understand" the opressors.
So, looking at this issue for the past two days I realized, maybe not
for the first time, that forgiving immediately involves the mind that
requires, even calls for understanding - almost as a precondition
(speaking from my perspective).
And the problem arises when there are things that are beyond
understanding and questions that cannot be answered. And one realizes
again, that the way to forgive is to do it straight from the heart,
surrendering and encompassing the rest."
I hope our German friends will not read the passages above as an attempt of
another yet accusation. As an effort to "look at the other", instead of examining
I shared the problem that lies at the bottom of this examination and I hope
it's not neccessary to explain from what position things are being spoken, here,
at NDS. Also the "victim role" that so unexpectedly surfaced in myself may look
more comfortable that the one of the "opressor" (the first involves "attraction",
the second, definitely "aversion", to admitt). But it is more difficult and tricky
to trace it and let go, do with it. This is also a subject worth further
> A friend of mine suggested to me going to Dachau and holding the thought "all
> what happened here is God".
> It is an experience that I can highly recommend.
Thank you, Hans, and much love to you and all of the new members as well from
When I was watching during the past few days this continuous flow of German names
joining the list, this is what came to my mind - isn't it magical and symbolic in
a sense that so many of our German friends "follow" the name "Adolf Hitler" again,
here, to NDS, in an effort to overcome the dark and the pain, and to reach the
In your PS to Hans you wrote:
"When I was watching during the past few days this
continuous flow of German names joining the list, this
is what came to my mind - isn't it magical and symbolic
in a sense that so many of our German friends
"follow" the name "Adolf Hitler" again, here, to NDS,
in an effort to overcome the dark and the pain,
and to reach the Light! Namaste."
It made me cry to read this, feeling the understanding in your lines
and the synchronizity of the events: It's exactly my impression that
without this shameful Nazi-past there wouldn't be such a "flowering
of consciousness" here in Europe today. It's like collectively we've
known that side of the story well enough to dare now to move into
Light. (Well, I suppose here speaks some belief of the Christian
background I come from: that you have to suffer first in order to
I would like to appreciate Hans as well for his most valuable
observations and bright conclusions. Thank you!
for me the trick is understanding that I myself (Mark, kind and bighearted as he is,
and he is..) play both the victim and oppressor roles myself. It's really what I do.
I, the ego plays these games. Now and then it gets played out on a big stage to help
us see our own roles more clearly, but it is those internal ongoing roles that (in my
humble opinion) are what we are talking about here on nds. Now some speak from a
stance where they have ended these roles, and they now and then caution me not to
dwell on the roles, but to see what is behind the roles. (after all, dwelling on the
roles makes them more solid) Good advice for those who have seen and acknowledged the
roles, but there are those of us for whom doing that honest acknowledgement is a work
in progress. Anyway, I think one can understand Hitler by looking within (not
pleasant, but not fatal either). Then one can ask how do I dismantle this dynamic in
myself. That is what some on the list warn is fatal. Yes, to the dynamic.
I've heard it said often that before one can go beyond ego, one has to have integrated
one's selves into an ego. I would offer an intermediate step, which is to look
closely at that ego and see what it does. (I think that is often lumped in with the
going beyond step because it is part of the process of going beyond, but some of us
are continually asking "what do you mean go beyond, and those who have gone beyond
reply look closely at that ego and see what it does. (and ask who am I really if I am
not the doing of this ego thing)
not possible to go beyond ego. Where would you go, and why? And it is
Some additional thoughts to the hitler discussion:
You mentioned the victim/oppressor roles, and that it gets played out
on big scale from time to time.
Yes, the big scale was the war, and I feel the waves of the duality
until today. I feel the fear and the contemption towards germany in
other countries of Europe (see the mail from Poland f.e.), and I feel
There is hate/contemption, and there is admiration/love. We germans
have to look at both, in the inner and in the outer, to come to a
You cannot understand hitler (and yourself) just by looking within.
That is excactly why it gets played out again and again.
I respectfully disagree. I think it gets played out again and again
because we DON'T look at it within. When we do the inner work, it gets
done. When we don't, the world forces it out into the culture, to point
it out to us, and even then we usually fail to notice the inner forces
that cause it. And beyond ego is the end of all the whining about how
hard our particular life is, why are we being tortured by life, and on
and on and on... I am so tired of those inner voices criticising both me
and the world. Yuck. beyond ego is acceptance of this amazing gift of
live. existence in a body, and the wonderful world in which the body
lives. YUM!!!! And I think acceptance of it as it is is much of the key.
(so ego dislikes it and dismantling ego allows it all to be fine as it
is.) And if it is fine as it is, we will no longer need to kill people to
make it better. (Isn't that what Hitler was promising? that it would be
better? and there was so MUCH desire for it to be better, that this
terrible thing happened.) If we can see it as fine now, we won't have the
force that drives acts of desperation. And then, once we can relax a
bit, we may even see positive solutions to really make it better. I am
not saying that the world as is with disease and death is fine, I am
saying that thinking that things are really terrible makes me
(personally) do stupid things the makes things even worse. When I sit
down and get calm and realize that I'm not really in such terrible shape,
I can see ways to make things even better. (like lose weight, exercise
more on the personal level) Like create opportunities to get to know
each other better, feed each other, take personal responsibility and
collective responsibility for the welfare and happiness of each and every
human on the planet on a more global level. What are the disasters
happening now that we all are looking the other way and not doing
something about? starvation, war, ignorance is rampant on the planet. As
long as we are defending ourselves from the way we feel about something
done by our Daddy's Daddy's Daddy, we are not helping to solve the
current problems. Hooo boy, I guess I'm off on another rant, huh?
anyway, I appreciate your response, but would invite you to ask deeply
whether looking inside is helpful or harmful. Anyone else have an
opinion? oh, by the way, certainly my own looking within may not be
enough if no one else does so. (but it will contribute, don't you
Sorry, I didn't express myself clearly. Of course it is helpful to go
in. It not only helpful, it is the only way.
But the wish to go beyond the ego is a wish of the ego. So how can
you go beyond? This is my belief.
For me it is boring always trying to get rid of it.
We tend to want
to do away with the
cause of the bad,
Rather than "see"
neither good nor bad.
The causeless isn't
Nor is it 'beneath'
nor 'within' anything
for that matter.
Thanks for your sharing here.
Namaste - and your movement
into openness resonates here.
From here, I don't see
hate successfully being dismantled
simply because one
doesn't like its
The attempt to dismantle
hate requires observing
it as being apart from
oneself, which perpetuates
the split that will,
hate ground to
If hate is not something apart,
then one can't have the agenda
to dismantle it or perpetuate
it. It arises as all other
perceptual events arise.
Hate as an arising allows
being open to what
arises and departs --
As one is open, hatred
has no ground to
and so leaves
in its appropriate
does everything that
So, if I might paraphrase, to see if I get the meaning... If a feeling of hate
comes into my consciousness, and then floats back out because something else
floats in to be for awhile, I need not suffer from it. If a feeling of hate rises
up and I try to run away from it, it will follow me and eventually I will act on
it because I have given it power by letting it control me in this way. If a
feeling of hate arises and I act on it, it will also grow and cause further
actions because once again I have energized it with my attention and action. So
to allow mental energies to arise and not to focus on them can allow them to just
come and go as they will. Is this saying the same thing thus far? (or is this yet
another strategy for dealing with hate, and am I just as stuck as I think I am?)
A stick has two ends. If shame is a part of ones
character structure then the opposite is there also.
A stick has two ends. You hold one end and you poke things with the other.
What IS the opposite of shame?
Lack of empathy?
And what is shame? Aggression that is internalized and turned against one's
And why are we concerned about here?
First it seemed that "I" was in jail and "I" wanted to be freeeee.
Then there was a time (feeling) of freedom occuring. This being free
occured also as a concept or imagination. There seemed to be a shift
into that what is whole, permanent, omnipresent, unknown ...........
nothingness....... unmovable ......
beyond freedom and love "being"
Nothing ever happend
life is such a precious possibility
greetings and nondual ....
Shame for me is a tool. A tool that I invented to never never feel a
certain feeling again. The price is to fill the hollow bamboo with
In the end I am not able to move anymore as a human being. I am stuck
on unwanted feelings. Attached and identified.
With this clear seeing of no I it seems to be no god idea to let it
be like this.
An enlightened cripple. Exiled to the Himalayas not to encounter the
shamed world again. Not to be disturbed.
Freedom is availble only when your free. Free to feel everything.
The one who invented the tool (for good reasons by the way) can
remove it also.
I am not shame! It also doesn't come from nowhere! It is the process
of reinventing shame that I can break . If I want.
I definetely want.
My shame, the shame of my family, the shame of my family.
It is fucking work. I decide.
I guess I was thinking of pathological shame.
As in John Bradshaw's "Healing the Shame that binds you", of which one
reviewer on Amazon.com wrote,
"Many suffer from the damaging effects of Toxic Shame. A little-explored
subject, it causes one to feel defective from the core of one's being. The
roots of shame come from abuse and dysfunctionality in the family and early
socialization in school. People then tend to measure their worth against
external standards and feedback and when it is negative or lacking, can
feel a devasting loss of self. Whether perpetrated on an overt or covert
level, the damaging effects can last a lifetime, leading people into mental
illness, addiction, and crippling disfunctionality."
Yeah, let's root it out and get rid of it. (can this be done?) Is there a
shortcut to realization or enlightenment that bypasses such catharsis of toxic
shame? Who am I when who I am is not good enough? (in the immortal words...)
Real remorse opens the door to the Heart.
Also to get to real remorse, I have to get
behind the opposites. Rather than being
at one end of the stick or the other, behind
or perhaps as Mark says, at the balance
point. As long as I am 'in' either one or
the other I am letting the left hand know
what the right hand is doing.
In myself, I have noticed what seems to me
a rather clever manipulation. I call this 'copping
to the lesser crime.' I will admit to something
but the admitting, while true, is really a lie cause
the motivation is a maneuver to fool myself as to
what is really going on. I am not suggesting this
is what is going on here but am just rambling. :-)
I had an experience once when giving my dad
a shower. He was very old and helpless. I felt
disgusted. I just sat with the feeling (I had plenty
of time as he did take a long time to shower).
I began to remember having been viewed with
disgust. So I had both feeling disgusted towards
and being the recipient of disgusted feelings.
The disgust was neutralized and I was flooded
with feelings of compassion and remorse for
myself and all of humanity. The balance point
seems to be on a higher/finer level or more
the balance point is what happens when you acknowledge both judgements
simultaneously and see through them both. (so you saw through both the feeling of
disgust that was directed at you and the one you were directing at your father and
they both fell away. no stick left.
(snip)A friend of mine suggested to me going to Dachau and holding
what happened here is God".
It is an experience that I can highly recommend.
What you shared here reminds
me that using "blissful thoughts"
to cope with reality
in no way finds the limits of
of using "blissful thoughts"
to cope with reality.
God is not a blissful thought to me especially not in Dachau.
It is just to challenge the enlightened ego (because who else can
become enlightened?) and its well-understood concepts.
It is to invite a flavour of blood and flesh.
I am not the ego, I have one. I am not the mind I have one. As soon
as I use it (like now) I have to deal with its concepts. As soon as I
use the body (means feel it) I have to deal with its feelings.
To get involved again. This time totally. To get drunk from duality
what means life to me.
Not to get stuck on one side or on no side.
When I stood in Dachau holding the thought "That is Gods play" the
attachement to one side (including the no-side) disappeared.
I could feel it as my instrument allowed me to feel it. As far as I
allowed my instrument to improve the capacity to feel.
It is helpful to become fully human. And humanness is always limited.
I can't see a problem in that.
Wordless I stood
beyond tears or laughter.
There was nothing to
do except weep and laugh.
TimeStopper's Textbook [case .00101]
Internal conversation is between two elements, one named 'creative'
and the other 'cynical'.
It is... possible to identify with one, the other, or both.
If identification is with both (neither), the resultant argument
nullifies 'everything' and the result is 'paralysis', also known as
'ambiguity'. The feeling which results from this configuration is
If identification is with one (either creative or cynical),
downstream events inevitably lead to invalidation of that one,
leaving 'none' or null. This is sometimes experienced as
Null is not paralysis; null is known as 'freedom'.
In 'mathematics', Zero is 'used as a placeholder'. Conceptually,
remembering Zero holds open space for null, that space which is
otherwise filled with argument.
This case is a very subtle argument; it is the argument which ends
[End of case .00101]
Commentary: 'Stopping thought' is not null, it is identification, and
thus the generation of a new layer of complexity, which is then
'observer' observing 'what was'; the impression may be that something
is gained. Conversely, observing thought (rather than stopping
thought) allows the recognition of the existing observer. The
existing observer is not an argument; the existing observer observes
argument and chooses identification, or not, as the case may be. The
existing observer 'may not' (does not have permission to) observe
itself, but it 'may' (can) remember itself.
If the existing observer can (is able to) remember itself, it may
then (be able to) perceive that it is outside of any (circumstantial)
time-frame. The existing observer does not know time, except through
identification (self-forgetting); thus, any observer which defines
itself, is 'asleep', IE, identified as an object in space and time.
Always an interesting topic, at least for me; entropy.
I am more interested in 'entropy in information systems', than I am
in the 'ultimate heat-death of the universe'.
'Entropy in information systems' includes issues of integrity of
memory-function in humans; and this issue of integrity of memory,
also has to do with the 'why and how' of defensive memory-editing,
which occurs in both 'denial' and 'confabulation'. Knowing that we
can edit our own memories, and knowing that we may act based on
memory, we need an 'objective method of memory-checking'.
Unfortunately, such a method does not exist, but there is a
workaround; simply depend on what precedes memory. What precedes
memory never changes and thus cannot err.
The problem with talking about the Universe, is that there is nothing
to compare it to.
We 'scientists' and philosophers and pundits, are residing in the
very test-tube in which the 'experiment' is occurring. We are
(usually, almost always, rare exceptions) only able to see (and this
is the whole point here) from that point of view, the POV of being
'in the soup'.
POV is everything. In examining issues of entropy, we are in exactly
the same predicament as the protagonist in the movie 'The Matrix'.
Our energies are being used to power the mechanism which enables our
perceptions; and our perceptions are thus able to see ONLY what is
'downsteam' from the mechanism which enables our perceptions. This is
'why' we experience 'time'. If you think about it, time is one of the
factors necessary to calculate (or perceive) entropy; if time is
removed from the calculation, entropy is moot.
The mechanism which powers or enables our perception is itself bound
to time and thus entropy; it is widely held that this mechanism is
mortal and will 'die', but that in itself, is an assumption which is
derived from time and entropy-bound existence. The point here is
this; all (world-dream/Maya/dualistic) assumptions are 'tested and
affirmed' within the very field (matrix of forces) which is itself,
created and thus perishable; thus, no perception of anything outside
of that field is likely to be encountered within that field. In other
words, the 'scientists' who are doing the observing, are themselves
embedded in the 'experiment', and are thus foolish to make
conclusions; if only 'they' knew that, and confessed their ignorance,
we would all be spared the pain of the fear of death and 'entropy',
insofar as 'science' has 'informed' us of the nature of Life, The
Universe, and Everything.*
Buddhist (mainly Zen) studies hint us to make space in our perceptual
field for the concept of 'Primordial Mind'; which is what precedes
memory. It 'has always existed' and is otherwise known as 'Being'; it
is the actual basis for consciousness as we experience it, but we are
usually experiencing only our own limited-to-memory identity of 'who
I am', and thus have no reason to look for evidence of Primordial
Mind... until we are hinted to do so. Primordial Mind does not think,
it 'does'; it is pure action. As such, it is the actual motive force
which preceded the rumored 'big bang'.
It is the pure action of Primordial Mind which itself creates the
quality we call 'space'; and it is 'action in space' which is what we
perceive as the 'phenomenon of time'.
The sacred Taoist symbol 'Tai Chi' portrays reality as action in
void; this is otherwise known as the 'Yin-Yang' symbol, and itself
'explains' the engine which powers all engines. Taoist shamans put
the lie to the rumor of death, and have gifted us with their findings.
Science may someday 'discover' or officially confirm the actuality of
Primordial Mind, but until that time, remember that we (every
individual viewpoint) are sitting in the very center; everything we
perceive, is moving away from us, and this is what is called
'entropy', and is the 'reason' for assumptions that the universe is
'expanding'. It all depends on point of view.
In the meantime, have fun trying different ways of entering timeless
states. In your travels, you may stumble across Primordial Mind.
* The fear of death may have preceded the advent of science, but
science is built of words; I doubt that the fear of death preceded
symbol-manipulation as a way of Being. This is an interesting point
to debate in itself. "Death is a rumor".
Nice piece, Gene.
The 'action' that forms
the Matrix is all-at-once,
so much so that all-at-once
is too partialized a description.
Because the Matrix defines time,
perception, and point of view,
for a creature in the Matrix,
the 'action' of 'forming'
is entirely imperceptible,
unspeakable, and *not*.
What *is*, thus *is not*
(from point of view within
Matrix) and what is taken to "be"
(i.e. the experiential
point of view within
the Matrix) *is not*
until the very End,