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Wednesday, September 13

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    Hello. This is another lengthy edition of the Nonduality Salon Highlights. There were well over 100 posts yesterday. Thank you for reading the Highlights.
    Message 1 of 1 , Sep 15, 2000
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      Hello. This is another lengthy edition of the Nonduality
      Salon Highlights. There were well over 100 posts yesterday.
      Thank you for reading the Highlights.
      --Jerry
      ________________________________________________________________

      INGRID

      Dear everyone in the Nonduality Salon,

      I'm new here and I've enjoyed reading the different
      viewpoints and contributions so much because of the
      underlying feeling of LOVE that does allow everything - not
      only the "goodies". I'm feeling touched by the warm
      welcomes and can also under- stand when someone says, What
      does this rambling have to do with the work I myself can
      only do?

      I'm German and you might call me a shame-based person.
      Maybe being born into Germany is just a wonderful starting
      point (call it excuse) for feeling lots of shame... I
      wonder.

      For me it's about feeling all that which I would have loved
      to keep projected out there (which I used to call evil,
      odd, ugly and so on) AND at the same time becoming able to
      express myself in words. Getting out onto this stage,
      showing myself with the frailties and uncertainties, while
      knowing the ONE consists of light and darkness, is a
      challenge and a remedy at the same time.

      In this sense I'm sending you my love. Ingrid
      ________________________________________________________________

      ROSE VIRCHOW

      I am new here - and another German - and it still is not so
      easy for me to feel proud to be one - this is what I feel
      right now and I was not so aware of it before and still
      tried not to see this - It was interesting to watch myself
      - tiptoeing and reading all your letters from today -
      feeling welcomed through some of them very much - that
      there were almost tears - and now again tiptoeing carefully
      and start writing this letter - here was spoken about
      Hitler a lot and even if I was born after the war I still
      carry shame and guilt with me and this particularly becomes
      strong right now in this moment when I "admit" to you and
      say "I am German" and remember the times when I was as a
      child and in youth in other countries - when I felt this
      judgement coming from others. I did not even know anything
      about politics at that time. And it is a gift to me right
      now to become conscious of this right now what I ( and I
      believe others) am still carrying and what pulls me down.
      And now I do understand the better that my longing to be
      free started very very early and pushed me onto the so
      called spiritual path. It is the pain who does that because
      I missed so much to be allowed just simple and human. Now
      here it is as if I walk through a door where after I have
      entered I am standing naked. - So, thats great, I stepped
      through another door into a room I do not know yet and look
      around. Where am I and who are you? - It took quite a while
      for me to get into NDS - I was reading the letters the last
      few days and had also a strong pull to sign in. It is
      almost time to get up for me and go to work - but the full
      moon seemed to hold me and helping me staying here on the
      computer. My English is not the best and I need some time
      to "tune in" to this. Thank you for listening. Love, Rose

      _______________________________________________________________

      LILLY AND JAN B.

      LILLY: I'm joining the NDS since today and have been
      reading many of the dialogs for hours.

      What catches me most are the talks about strong and
      embarrissing feelings. As I experience them, they defintely
      are sitting in my body, where I may have stored them by not
      wanting them or they are inherited through my whole lineage
      (and culture) in my cells. More often I meet this unwanted
      feelings in other people and have to be pretty aware to not
      deny them that way – it is "the other", not me. Nothing
      helps but feeling!

      JAN: Contemplation will help too - like contemplating why a
      feeling can't be just that feeling but has to be judged in
      wanted/unwanted, good/bad etc.

      LILLY: Through love only – and I mean the appreciation of
      mySelf in a non- judgemental attitude– I'm able to go
      through the whole storage of anger, hate, lust for power,
      sexual-lust, misuse a.s.o. which we call the dark side of
      the moon, but in whole it feels female, round and
      mysterious and everybody loves to look at the light side.
      Right now I'm sitting in the light of the still full moon
      and feel its power.

      JAN: Many so called unwanted feelings are a result from
      bringing up and culture. The classical example being
      burping, in the West causing embarrassment but not so in
      China.Why not accept all feelings "as are"? Suppressing
      feelings doesn't solve anything - more likely it will bring
      problems. Taboos are the cause for suppression and whatever
      is forbidden will become magically attractive (remembering
      some "farting" threads on the list :). Also I am reminded
      of a story by an Arab, who said Western women were utterly
      unattractive because their faces and legs were so visible
      :) Then, it is forgotten that mind and body mutually
      influence each other - for instance, sexual lust can be
      caused by a wrong diet. Ignorant of that, one is unable to
      differentiate between lust and love - a sure scenario for
      suffering. Mood also is greatly influenced by diet - it can
      cause a real bad temper one is directly suffering from and
      indirectly, by the responses one will harvest through one's
      behavior... The so called "dark side" is man-made - in
      nature there is no excuse for ignorance/stupidity.

      LILLY: So what does the image of HITLER provoke in me is my
      utter ugliness and the feelings of unworthiness and shame –
      I can't help but this is me in my inner spectrum.

      JAN: Today, everyone will agree that the UN is very useful.
      It was founded after WW II, in order to prevent such an
      event from ever happening again. And WW II also "birthed"
      the foundation of what now is the European union. If only
      these organizations had been founded earlier, history had
      been very different. But this is the sad history of life on
      planet earth: always something very tragic has to happen
      before measures are taken to prevent it from happening
      again. And how "bad" humans are when it comes to learning -
      despite the experience of WW II, is shown by the tragedies
      in Bosnia and Rwanda that couldn't be prevented. This
      doesn't make Hitler a "good guy" nor gives him a merit - he
      was the instrument. But at least the Germans acknowledged
      and took the consequences. The Japanese still haven't done
      that and their textbooks on history are a falsification of
      what happened - "losing one's face" is the motive for that.
      Knowledge obscuring karma results in neglecting that, what
      should require our full attention. Without that attention,
      suffering will result. Some will only stop smoking when a
      lung cancer develops whereas others will stop when knowing
      smoking is a health-hazard.

      LILLY: I like to more participate – it seems to be a good
      practicing ground! Greetings to you all

      ____________________________________________________________

      RALF WIENKEN

      I saw in the E-Mail-Group that Hitler was mentioned and I
      have read most of the following mails

      I want to add some thoughts.

      Hilter and Nazism cannot be understood by sociological
      and/or psychological explanations. Or does anybody really
      believe that this phenomenon arose in Germany between 1925
      and 1933 only because the german economy had crashed or
      because all the germans were nutcases?

      Nazism can be understood only if its religious and
      spiritual dimensions are included. All witnesses of this
      time mention the spiritual fascination of hitler, of the
      symbols, of the Party and of the people`s alignment.

      Why is is important to make such statements in an
      E-Mail-Group about spirituality? Because Spirituality in
      itself is neither good nor bad. It can be used, and it was
      used throughout the whole history by forces which we name
      good and evil.

      These forces exist not only on the abstract level of social
      systems, but also in us.

      That means: if someone is awaken, this doesn’t necessarily
      mean that all evil is gone. We have the concept that these
      people are loving, adult, caring – maybe crazy somehow, but
      essentially on the good side – on the side we like to see
      them.

      But how often have charismatic people, who clearly had an
      understanding of the nature of the Ego, lead their
      followers to desastrous actions?

      Are we really prepared to meet the devil (and the god) in
      us and in the outer world? Or are we still remaining in an
      spiritual identity, doing meditations, eating plants,
      hoping for the best?

      Waldfee, Germany

      ----------------------------

      GENE POOLE

      Thank you for this, Ralf. You share a perspective that is
      needed.

      Spiritual fascism is indeed a reality today, as it was in
      pre-war Germany. And it has to do with social groups and
      individuals, both.

      In the USA, ranks of fanatics are always ready to march, to
      murder, to cause harm, in the name of religion, or in
      support of an idea. We must all be aware of this tendency,
      which seems to be universal among humans.

      It is, in my opinion, certainly worth a small amount of
      personal discomfort to consider these things, especially if
      we consider how our world would be, if no attention were
      given to our vulnerabilities.

      Thank you, and welcome.

      ____________________________________________________________

      POU TO GREG GOODE

      Beloved Greg.. Divine principle of intelligence.. Love
      Supreme..

      I had all my upper crowns done in a surgery in northern
      Germany. I'm not German but for reasons only known to God
      I've needed to go to Germany a lot. While I was having the
      crowning work done, and I'm sure that you are aware that in
      certain circumstances crowning requires much gold. I asked
      the dentist - do you have any idea where this gold has come
      from? I did not suggest any Advaita principals to Herr
      Doktor! Back here in the UK while having my lower teeth
      crowned, dental surgeons here have remarked the excellence
      of the work that I've received in Germany. Sometimes I've
      said to the dentist, yes, and I wonder where this gold
      comes from.

      I don't need to remind you Greg that 60 years ago there was
      a holocaust in Germany and the gold fillings were removed
      not only from Jewish people but also homosexuals, gypsies,
      anything left of right. I'm sure you get the picture.

      Divine principle in this dream play where I get to play the
      part cfalled Pou and you get the part called Greg, we pick
      our pay cheques up at the end of the week and we both know
      who we really are. Not only from a wedding ring to a dagger
      but from a dagger to a gold crown.

      Love Pou

      ___________________________________________________________________

      ROYAL AND POU

      I received this from Light-Mission and thought it
      beautiful, so I wanted to share it with you.

      E.J. at Light-Mission said:

      "As Namaste is to say *may the Divine Essence IN me Embrace
      the Divine Essence IN you as a Divine Essence of One*, so
      too Metta is to say *may the Loving Kindness IN me Embrace
      the Loving Kindness IN you as Loving Kindness of One*, so
      too Zikr is to say *may the Self Remembering IN me Embrace
      the Self Remembering IN you as a Self Remembrance of One*.
      It is in the Inner Embracing of each other that we Realize
      that we are all cut from the same bolt of cloth yet most do
      not Realize it yet.

      My Love to You All,

      -----------------------------------

      Dear Royal

      May I ask you if you feel it is possible to repeat this
      what you share here in front of the photo's of Adolf
      Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, Idi Amin, Malocovich, Pol Pot,
      Nixon, and any other expressions that evil should work
      through here... Do you honestly feel that you could look
      into the eyes of any of these beings and honestly say you
      are from the same cut of cloth..

      Pou

      ----------------------------------

      I am yet a baby on the Path, yearning toward realization,
      but not yet able to dwell in Grace totally and irrevocably.
      Knowing that duality IS NOT, but not yet ONE with
      nonduality. So I continue in my contemplation of that which
      realized beings and non-realized beings share with me,
      searching for the core of truth, until one day I may become
      enlightened.

      It is my belief that all is the manifestation of Divine
      Consciousness. So, yes I think I could look into these
      beings' eyes and honestly say we are cut from the same
      cloth. But we all fashion our garment on the basis of our
      state of Being. I might not admire the garment, yet still
      the cloth is lovely.

      Royal
      _________________________________________________________________

      MICHELE

      Hello,

      I am new in the salon and have read what some of you wrote
      about Hitler...

      I would like to add something...

      As I see it not only the word 'Hitler' has become a
      powerful tool for propagandists to use for, but also his
      picture. Last year a advertising agency in Berlin designed
      a campaign for a political party (FDP) and they had
      prepared a big poster to hang all over Germany showing a
      photo of Hitler beside Osho and Freddy Krueger (!). The
      message was concerning the education policy and the text
      said something like: "If we don't show our children the
      way, they will find their own teachers". The reactions on
      this campaign were vehement and they were large discussions
      in the newspapers. The result was that the posters were not
      hang in public. Not only the political context but to use
      Hitler's picture was a total provocation. As I see it (
      coming from Southamerica and living over 17 years in
      Germany) Hitler is still a taboo in Germany, remains
      undigested. His body might be dead - but Hitler as denied
      part of consciousness is still very alive! There is a
      collective incapacity of allowing to see him as "inside
      me", as part of "myself".

      Michèle

      ___________________________________________________________________

      HANS AND MARK OTTER ON HITLER

      HANS: Hello all, after spending the last 20 years again and
      again being confronted with the issue of nazism (being
      raised in East-Germany, total denial there), I followed the
      group discussion very attentively. The main point in
      historical research concerning Hitler is always: How could
      this man (a bad artist, an austrian meaningless private)
      attract so many intelligent people in such a catastrophy?
      He attracted intellectuals, artists, generals , mothers,
      children .... Of course you have economical circumstances a
      lost 1.world war, whatever. No personality I believe can be
      so radiant to destroy half of the world within 12 years.
      Impossible. The first KZ (Dachau) was established after 3
      month(!) of Hitlers claim to power in 1933. When I ask the
      generation of my grandfather about that time I usually get
      two kind of replies: Denial and shame mixed with
      fascination. To be very clear on that point, I am not a
      Nazi or a right winger or anything. I enterd the issue from
      the other side, from the pain of million people killed in
      KZs. But I always had the feeling this is just half of the
      truth.

      Hitler is reported to express exactly the common believes
      of the people just listening to him at that moment.

      Who says that the Self is showing up always in light? When
      I look at old films when Hitler was speaking, all I could
      see was love speaking throuh his eyes, no matter how
      awfully cruel the words were. I actually could not see any
      difference to Osho or Ramana or any great master. I heard
      the master attracts you in the teaching by telling you
      sweet lies in the beginning (confirming your concepts,
      giving you what your ego needs, approval, sex whatever).
      And give you the axeblow to free you eternally.

      If Auschwitz and the 2nd world war was not an axblow to the
      whole mankind, I don't know what it was.

      And this is my point of view as an ashamed German being. We
      collectively cannot stand the fact, that God can give birth
      to such evil. Through the German people. After
      Schopenhauer, Mozart, Wittgenstein, Goethe, Schiller....

      A friend of mine suggested to me going to Dachau and
      holding the thought "all what happened here is God". It is
      an experience that I can highly recommend.

      Love.

      -----------------------

      MARK: Thank you for this post. I think that issues like a
      people's collective shame need to be brought into the
      light, and I am so glad you are doing so. As a 4th
      generation American of German descent, I remember feeling
      shame about my own heritage in junior high school upon
      learning about the holocaust. This increased upon seeing
      such films (as an adult) as Shoah on PBS, which showed the
      bodies of concentration camp victims piled high, and the
      incredibly skinny living prisoners being liberated, etc. No
      need to recount it all, it happened, now what do we do with
      it? I think it is very important to root out our shame and
      be done with it. (to learn from it but to stop suffering
      from it and propagating such suffering). It is amazingly
      painful to get in touch with inner shame, but it gets worse
      the longer we keep it hidden. I have shame about an adult
      lifetime of alchohol misuse, and am doing work to expose my
      own shame in a holotropic breathwork community which is
      beginning to explore gestalt therapies. I welcome other's
      suggestions about how we can bring our personal and our
      collective shame into the light of love to let the energies
      go free. I think Scott Peck has drawn a very interesting
      picture of evil in his book People of the Lie, which
      (although I read it years ago), I summarize as "evil is
      what happens when we allow ourselves to hide parts of
      ourselves and refuse to acknowledge them". As my desire for
      nonduality grows and I find myself abandoning what I
      thought was my life to pursue it, I find myself becoming
      intolerant of any of my own lies. Sharing means of
      eliminating them so they don't come back is becoming
      central. I say all this in the context of your post because
      shame for something others did seems to be not quite true.
      I can relate to it, having shame for how my grandfather
      boxed my father's ears and caused some hearing loss during
      drinking episodes, and then comparing this to my own
      periods of not being quite sure what I have done during
      drinking episodes but feeling that it may not have been up
      to my sober standards. I would like to let my grandfather
      off the hook as I go find out what I did and make amends
      and forgive myself as well. I hope the German people can
      find a way to forgive themselves and that the rest of the
      world will join in. For the world to keep the hatred going
      by hating Mr. Hitler and to let some of that leak over onto
      the present German population is to keep hatred alive,
      which just harms us. Let's collectively find a way to
      dismantle all of it. (I don't know how, but I am willing to
      work to help us find ways.)

      thanks. Love, Mark

      ___________________________________________________________

      SKY: EMBRACING THE DARK SIDE

      I get the impression, both from what I hear and from my own
      experience, that there is a tendency to make
      conquest/acceptance of one's "dark side" a kind of humble
      and "courageous leap into the unknown." But my experience
      is that this approach, for me, is a bit off. The "solution"
      tends to feed the "problem."

      One might say that there really IS no "dark side." In which
      case, I would suggest, there is none. I mean, all those we
      label "evil," isn't their main characteristic that they
      themselves seem to be a bit overactively labelling others
      "evil," ("evil Jews," "evil capitalists," "evil heathen,"
      etc.). What if the very effort at confronting, "facing"
      the, one's, "dark side" was itself what made us "dark"?
      Now, wouldn't that be scarey, "dark"?

      But that is what I'm saying: there is no dark side! It's
      just part of the dualism, dark/light. In love, there is
      only love.

      And even if there were a dark side, I would then agree with
      Osho that one shouldn't waste time examining it. He likens
      it to staring carefully at the darkness in a dark room.
      Just turn the light on, he proclaims. Focus on the light,
      not on the dark!

      Thus, practically speaking, instead of analysing one's
      resentments, problems, conflict, I suggest focusing on the
      love one feels and moving out of it's fullness, a radiant
      warmth from the heart.

      Thus, to "understand" Hitler, or any boggy man, focus on
      his goodness, focus on his inner light. Boggy men are dark
      rooms. Turn on the light. Because the subject is never
      either right or wrong, light or dark, but one's own
      personal relationship to the Universe Itself: How to bask
      in ITS warm light. We need never either condemn or forgive
      anyone. No one is concerned. Only the One is the real
      issue. Love IT and all else will follow in the light.

      Another word for condemn is to denigrate, from roots
      meaning "to darken." But darkening (or naming things dark)
      never shed light on anything.

      (Am I saying that it's dark to darken, thus darkening or
      denigrating the act of darkening, denigrating? No, I'm
      saying that behind even that is light, nevertheless, if one
      refrains from darkening even that, instead to focus on The
      Light.)

      ______________________________________________________________

      TAMARA

      Dear all, the name of this manifestation here in Bavaria
      (south Germany) is Tamara. I am an advaita addict and enjoy
      very much the conversations of this group and it seems to
      be on a very mature level and playful. Therefore a feeling
      is here of wanting to participate to give something to the
      "bigger picture" of what is or only appears to be. I assume
      that most of you have another cultural background than me
      and in sharing our viewpoints this creates in my experience
      a bigger horizon and understanding for everyone. In
      expressing that what I am .... please apologise, if the
      translation or words is sometimes not appropriate, but this
      should be no barrier.

      Since years playing with the advaita concepts there seems
      to be always this paradox and difficulty how to express
      nonduality in terms of duality. Also speaking from the
      impersonal or personal level. (there are no levels of
      course)

      My feeling is also that it is extremely important to
      discuss matters of actuality and share about your
      impression for example of Adolf H. As born in Germany in
      the 60ies it is still a repressed and avoided theme in
      society today and it is often not easy to be called a
      "nazi" in foreign countrys, when speaking German, because
      it is my mother's language (She is Austrian). For many
      years really I got into this historical matter of this
      unbeliefable happening and it is still going on.

      I know the german conditioning is to be tooo serious. I am
      very excited to hear from you all.

      Greetings and "Servus" T a m a r a

      _________________________________________________________

      CLARISSA

      Dearest Sky, I am new to this nondualistic salon and just
      read through some of the emails. Very insteresting. Reading
      yours in response to Ralf's adressing the dark side, there
      is something I would like to respond. I have been to Dachau
      and to another place in Germany where Hitler lived and now
      it is a museum, for everyone to come, see and feeeel. And
      this places do not feel warm and full of light. Have you
      ever been there? I did not feel in particular warm being
      there, but I felt the pain and despair. May these things
      never happen again, but lets pull them from under the
      carpet and bring some light in.

      Lots of Love Clarissa

      ___________________________________________________________

      BENINA

      I am new in the salon and read with interest what was
      written about Hitler. For my understanding it is very close
      connected with the dark side.Being raised by parents who
      where growing up in germany while Hitler was in power,I
      experienced how deeply this period in their live has been
      denied and burried. Yes it is disscussed a lot in the media
      but how I see it, only on an intellecual level. For me the
      healing starts to happen since I start feeling, realy
      feeling what has happend.Feeling it, embracing it so it can
      dissolve. Greetings Benina

      ___________________________________________________________

      ELLY SEIDEL

      Dear Mark, dear Liliana,

      Being a mathematician I cannot resist writing to you, Mark.
      You cannot take for granted that 1 + 1 2. It can also be 1
      + 1 10 (which is actually so when you look deep into the
      functioning of your computer). It depends on the concept
      you are taking for granted. In this case with how many
      digits you are working.

      So the concept you are taking leads to the result. When you
      work with 10 digits it is 2, when you work only with 0 and
      1 it is 10.

      What has this to do with Hitler? For me Hitler was not a
      psychopath (on the personal level it might be), but there
      was a believe system around the world and he acted it out
      and this leaded to the experiences. These believe systems
      are still working that races are superior, inferior,


      Just now there is a whole series in a German Magazine Stern
      about Nietzsche. His philosophy got used. He was against
      anti-Semitism and his own sister falsified his books and
      caused that it could be used for believes where Nietzsche
      would never have agreed. The whole German culture got used
      for this believe system and the old German culture is lost.

      Liliana I have not written dots instead of the name Hitler.
      It is just not possible. For me the work is to look to the
      believes what created Hitler. For me this is work in
      consciousness. It is daily work, it is not intellectual:
      Where do I hurt others. What do I act out in my daily life.
      What are my concepts behind, my limitations? It is
      feeling!!!!

      Mark I was reading the letter from you and from Pou and I
      was just crying, feeling, nothing to say

      Much love

      Elly

      ___________________________________________________________

      MANU

      I signed in on Sunday and now I've read now most of the
      e-mails and try to "catch up" - I think this is bound to
      fail!! So I just jump into it:

      I feel this opening of the issue of Hitler as very healing.
      I studied history here in Germany and focussed very much on
      the third Reich as I felt a very strong pull to do so.

      When I read your e-mail, Jerry, about your experience with
      the need to hide any interest in Germany or Germans it
      hurts although I can surely see and feel the standpoint of
      your parents. As I was brought up in the sixties and didn't
      have the slightest "life-touch" of the third Reich it is
      such a strange feeling and yet very real to live with this
      heritage. Finally in the last 2 years I gained a glimpse
      (or a bit more) of how it is to live in this country and
      also to see the beauty of Germany and the Germans. Before I
      was caught up in more or less unconscious shame. And with
      this wider view I finally have the chance to take another
      look at this whole creation of the third Reich.

      To discuss this issue without getting identified of being a
      German and yet allow all the different feelings about it
      (which I see as a real treasure) is quite difficult for me.
      I can very much associate with the picture that all these
      Hitlers, Amins, Stalins etc. - as well as Buddha, Jesus,
      Rajneesh, not to forget my father and my mother, are
      symbols for parts of myself. With this viewpoint I also
      have the possibility to work with it, to feel all the
      different feelings without any separation. Any other way
      leads me into non participation and seeing life just as
      seeing a movie in the cinema.

      About the spiritual part of Hitler and the Third Reich
      which Ralf brought up: Yes, I agree with this. And I think
      the work is to bring spirituality and lived religion back
      to every bit of life. Every non-spirituality for me is
      avoidance - avoidance to feel and fully live an experience
      in every dimension that wants to be experienced.

      Bye and love Manu

      __________________________________________________________

      MELODY ANDERSON RESPONDS TO HANS

      HANS: Who says that the Self is showing up always in light?
      When I look at old films when Hitler was speaking, all I
      could see was love speaking throuh his eyes, no matter how
      awfully cruel the words were. I actually could not see any
      difference to Osho or Ramana or any great master.

      MELODY: This is, to me, a rather stunning statement, and I
      ask myself, "what would I have to change, what would I have
      to 'drop'....in order to see this as 'true'.

      "What would it cost me to believe this?"

      I have read (elsewhere on the web) a SS agent's description
      of the Hitler he knew, loved and served . He spoke of a man
      who was an artist, a poet. He spoke of a man who would give
      his jacket away to a homeless person on the street....who
      would share his food with children on the street....who
      always got home in time at night to feed his cat himself.
      He spoke of a man who studied the words of Jesus and
      Buddha, who was heavily influenced by the secret societies
      of Tibet, who quoted paragraphs of Schopenhauer's words by
      memory, and was a strict vegetarian. He was described as
      one who, on the morning of his death, ate breakfast as he
      did every other morning, silently shook the hands of his
      friends, and walked calmly, without a hint of panic or
      anxiety, to his own death.

      I say this not to inflame anyone's sensitivities further,
      but as a way of showing that people can't simply be written
      off as 'black and not white'

      HANS: I heard the master attracts you in the teaching by
      telling you sweet lies in the beginning (confirming your
      concepts, giving you what your ego needs, approval, sex
      whatever). And give you the axeblow to free you eternally.

      If Auschwitz and the 2nd world war was not an axblow to the
      whole mankind, I don't know what it was.

      MELODY: This, too, is quite a radical departure from seeing
      him as 'a deranged madman'.

      It reminds me of a book I once read, "I Remember Union".

      It was an 'alternative' account of the Jesus, Mary, and
      Judas story

      in which Judas loved Jesus so much that when he saw his
      life's plan in the 'swing between worlds' (before being
      born) he at first protested....until he was reminded that
      this 'story' had been set in motion, and only someone who
      loved Jesus as much as Judas did could be asked to be the
      'betrayer'.

      Again, not wishing to make people even more uncomfortable,
      but at the same time grateful to finally have a forum where
      such a radical consideration can be voiced,

      what if Hitler, like Judas, was simply allowing the karmic
      energies to be sung thru him?

      I'm not suggesting this is what happened. I'm suggesting
      that when I CONSIDER such a possibility, it changes ME.

      Pou said the other day, "I belief there is a vast
      difference between the physiological make up of A. H. and
      the forces of evil that used the body mind psyche to work
      thru that of A.H."

      If we were to except this as 'true', we would then be free
      to no longer take acts of brutality 'personally'. By that,
      I mean we are free to then not take ourselves....and our
      history.... so 'personally'. It opens the door to dropping
      shame, doesn't it?

      It would also demand that people own their portion of the
      'evil' that was collectively expressed thru Hitler.

      HANS: And this is my point of view as an ashamed German
      being. We collectively cannot stand the fact, that God can
      give birth to such evil. Through the German people. After
      Schopenhauer, Mozart, Wittgenstein, Goethe, Schiller....

      A friend of mine suggested to me going to Dachau and
      holding the thought "all what happened here is God". It is
      an experience that I can highly recommend.

      MELODY: I went to Dachau in 1986. I realized, as I was
      standing in the open field where the barracks once stood,
      that I would have a very difficult time trying to describe
      the feeling of this place. (I realized later I could not
      distinguish the 'feeling of the place' from 'the way I
      felt' standing in such a place. I see, years later, there's
      a big difference. )

      I asked my friend to take a picture of me standing there,
      that exact moment ....fearful that somehow I could one day
      forget that feeling.....feeling as if all the air had been
      completely exhaled out of my body.

      I know I can visualize that place, my body's reaction, the
      tears I cried.....I can easily 'step back inside that
      space. So I think at bedtime tonight I will do as you
      suggest. Stepping back into that 'space' I will look around
      and say, "all what happened here is God".

      Thanks for giving me the 'space' to say these thoughts
      outloud.

      love, Melody

      ___________________________________________________________

      WELCOME TO NEW LIST MEMBERS

      Hello! Welcome all of you! You are helping make Nonduality
      Salon an even more valuable, open, sharing place. Everyone
      can learn from you. I'm glad you're all here! --Greg Goode

      Amen -- and, I might add, the new influx of posters from
      Europe is helping to balance out both sides of the North
      Atlantic. Thank you all for emerging from lurkdom to
      contribute -- s'wonderful, or perhaps I should say
      "wunderbar!" --Bruce Morgen

      _____________________________________________________________

      Living things don't usually grow at a constant rate, but in
      surges. I think that the Salon is in the midst of one of
      those surges. Welcome and love to everyone. This full moon,
      tonight, is the mid-autumn moon, a festival in China. It's
      considered very auspicious to bathe in the moonlight
      tonight.

      love,

      andrew
      _______________________________________________________________

      For those interested in some of the history of discussion
      on this list concerning racism and marginalization, please
      see the following websites. With permission of the authors
      perhaps another web page can be constructed which would
      capture the many facets of the discussion that is going on
      right now.

      http://www.nonduality.com/margin.htm
      http://www.nonduality.com/alice.htm

      ________________________________________________________________

      VICTOR TORRICO

      Dear Friends,

      Bidding you all a fond farewell for the time being. I'm
      spending entirely too much time at the computer generating
      all these inane ramblings when I should really be working
      on learning to be. This is only an individual job and
      cannot be done by someone else. I've had enough pointers
      towards reality to last ten lifetimes. Now it's time to put
      these pointers to work.

      The project of my heart is building a place to be used as
      an occasional retreat center, meeting place and for
      individual meditation retreats. I have no idea why I'm
      doing this crazy thing --- something just is urging me on.
      With luck I hope to be finished with the main part by next
      year (May of 2001).

      It is located on fifty acres in the Western Appalachian
      mountains about thirty miles West of the Shenandoah Valley
      and about as far West as you can go in the state of
      Virginia --- a place of singular beauty and peace. It is in
      a wooded place, immediately behind our home, overlooking a
      meadow and river.

      I plan to post occasional reports to let everyone know how
      the building is going on. Ground leveling, digging of
      foundation holes, pole raising, and saw-milling of lumber
      on site will start in the next couple of weeks. Then the
      lumber will have to season over the Winter with actual work
      starting around February or March.

      I invite one person to help me build this next year. If you
      are interested please send email and we can talk about it.
      This would be a labor of love since the pay would be room,
      board and fellowship.

      With love, peace, equanimity and happiness to everyone,

      Victor

      ___________________________________________________________

      CARLA CARLSON ON TOUCHING

      I want to share something about my everyday experience in
      the workplace with people having had accidents or any
      physical dysfunction.This work is a daily discipline in
      directing attention and being aware. Listening with
      attention not getting caught in the story is my exercise
      and it seems to calm the other and creates trust.

      Touching the disturbed bodypart with awareness and asking
      inside who feels this ,something in the physical cell
      structure changes,its electrical field . I start to feel
      movement in the cells .I can have all kinds of feelings
      myself and staying focussed on the enquiery there is a
      presence where every thing get sucked into . I call it
      falling into Love .Also physically its an exquisite feeling
      through the whole body like in an love act. The other
      persons body changes and they enjoy . Every day new
      mysteries unfold in this exchange and truly all this people
      feel like helpers in my process of awakening . Strangely
      falling in Love happens more with people I don't like . Is
      not Love and awareness the same ,everything has place in
      there .

      ____________________________________________________________

      JOHN DUFF ON UNDERSTANDING

      True Understanding requires the participation of ALL
      centres (or minds). The Intellectual (the head brain)
      sixth/seventh chakra the Emotional (the Heart or solar
      plexus), fourth the Moving, the Instinctive (or some might
      say Moving/Instinctive).

      Understanding with one centre is not understanding,
      understanding with two centers gives weak or inconsistent
      understanding, only understanding with all centers can be
      considered complete understanding. Why? Because these
      centres generate our 'I's and usually awareness passes from
      "I'm hungry" to "I want that" to "I'm thirsty" to "I want
      sex" to "I don't like him" to "do I look good?" to (very
      occasionally) "What's this nonsense, isn't there something
      else?", all related to one of the 'brains' fighting over
      the 'telephone' to speak with the master's voice to get
      what it wants in that moment.

      If understanding of "something" penetrates all of the
      centers, then all of the 'I's know "it". The intellectual
      'I' that heard the idea of and 'understands'
      non-identification has no control when the emotional 'I'
      that does not understand takes control when pride is
      wounded, the emotional centre must understand this concept
      in its own language, deeply, that identification is death,
      and the language of the emotional center is not words it
      something else, perhaps, pictures or images (when this is
      perceived the 'reins' from the driver to the horse may be
      formed). This lack of each brain understanding in its own
      way may be one reason it is so hard to 'do' what we have
      heard 'intellectually'. These brains don't communicate and
      usually don't know of each others existence and they - it's
      usually a mixed up stream of thought, feeling and sensation
      that, since they occur in one body, with one name, we call
      them all 'I'.

      ______________________________________________________________

      Zen master Changqing Huileng entered the hall to address
      the monks. After a long silence he said, "Don't say that it
      will be any better tonight." He then got down and left the
      hall.

      --
      We are the Nonduality Generation.
      http://www.nonduality.com
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