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Tuesday, September 12

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    VICTOR TORRICO: FIXING Dear Friends, If I cannot save, fix or help myself how can I expect to save, fix or help others? If I cannot recognize truth how can I
    Message 1 of 1 , Sep 14, 2000

      Dear Friends,

      If I cannot save, fix or help myself how can I expect to
      save, fix or help others?

      If I cannot recognize truth how can I expect others to
      recognize truth?

      If I cannot simply be how can I expect others to simply be?

      If I cannot be joy and happiness how can I expect others to
      be joy and happiness?

      If I cannot drop endless idle speculation how can I expect
      others to drop endless idle speculation?

      What to do or not do? What to do or not do?

      May we all be in It As-It-Is and have the experience of It

      Peace, equanimity, joy and happiness,




      High Royal,

      Yes, I, too feel most certain that it is the feeling of
      love that is all that is ever the point. Ever.

      As long as there is the feeling of love, it doesn't matter
      what is said, if there is no feeling of love, it matters
      even less.

      Education can be as much a tool of ignorance as one of
      knowledge, of love as of hate.

      Royal, isn't love what moves toward it's absence? Yes, this
      is a duality, love/not love. But In love, there is only
      love, and that is the nonduality. To me, nonduality means
      the state of perpetual motion, like a river, of love,
      through the absence of love, toward love's source, till it
      reaches the ocean of love. And back again. A never ending

      warm love ~*~ sky


      Your loving spirit is as a sweet, sweet balm to my heart.
      You who have such courage to open your heart to us all. I
      have missed our exchanges during my absence. To live always
      in love is my dream/reality. The spirit yearns toward it,
      but alas the ego still pulls me back too often. When I can
      dwell in love at all times -- when I can see love in all,
      then I will be home.

      I dwell in love as I write this to you.

      In Fullness, Royal


      On the issue of love;
      I have no quarrel with love
      Love is all before
      And after all

      Love may be One
      Shining Indescribable Object
      In infinite blue sky
      It is love

      And it is loved because
      There is room
      For something else
      In the sky;

      To fill the sky
      With love
      Is to crowd out
      Love's companions.

      Knowing love,
      I know love's companions
      I make room for them
      In myself


      King love is blind
      By courtiers of every stripe
      Universal in judgement


      Why do we call upon love
      But for counsel
      In it's absence?
      And that is good.


      Softly to hard
      Yet hard to soft,
      Love serves
      And seeks to meet itself.


      We say "mystery", yet
      "Miracle" is saying;
      And how much astonishment
      Can a person take?


      Calm seas
      Allow inner voyaging


      Wide Flow

      ==Gene Poole==


      HAN: Hello, some friends told me to join this group to
      deepen the understanding and to experience alive sharings
      with difficult issues. I am pretty busy to integrate all
      the unwanted sides of me, and to find a path through the
      jungle of projections, judgements, believes etc. The mere
      fact that there is no I experiencing all this does not make
      the pain go away, nor the resistance against the pain, nor
      the confusion or anything.

      JAN: Hello Hans, A good observation - the absence of the
      sense of "I" doesn't mean the absence of the potential to
      feel pain. But the "good" news, no "I", no sufferer (that
      nasty guy "inside", complaining his fate).

      HANS: A key issue for me is the capacity to feel. The more
      I feel, the more expansion. The problem arises: With a
      clear decision to feel, everything comes to be felt, not
      only bliss unfortunately. And that is the grace, the work
      as far as I can see.

      JAN: Yes, that could be called "the sour apple"; feeling
      will go on expanding until it embraces the entire universe.
      There is no alternative but to accept "what is".

      HANS: The thought, that Adolf Hitler might be an
      enlightened being gave an axblow to my beautiful spiritual
      concepts and actually opened an understanding for
      nonduality for the first time. So here I am, very junior,
      with a lot of human imperfection in my mind. Greetings from
      Germany. --Hans

      JAN: The point is that no differentiation can be made
      between "enlightened" and non-enlightened". When
      enlightened (whatever that is :-), everything is
      simultaneously enlightened and that does include the
      dictators. If enlightenment had a beginning, it would have
      an end, so "everything has been enlightened even before the
      foundation of universe".

      Don't worry about the imperfections in the mind: the mind
      itself is the imperfection :-)



      When I say this is activity of the "me", I don't at all
      mean the "me" of one particular body-mind is "at fault".
      That is not what I said, or am saying.

      The "me" is the way the body-mind believes itself to be an
      autonomous independent entity. The "me" doesn't belong to a
      particular body-mind -- it's the other way around: the
      conceptualization "separate body-mind" is a means to
      establish "me". ;-)

      The "mechanism of projection" was very active in Nazi
      Germany, but was very active in the U.S. during the Viet
      Nam War, the Gulf War, in fact, can be found to be an
      over-stimulated mechanism in general during times of
      national pride gearing up for war.

      Projection (of and by "me") occurs not just with
      nationalism, as by Germans onto Hitler, but in religious
      movements that have charismatic leaders as well. Hitler's
      manipulation of projection through propaganda, and the
      scapegoating of Jews, gypsies, and homosexuals, is just one
      example of ways that images are used to raise and focus
      aggression - many examples can be found - as in mass
      rallies in Iran, or widespread propaganda in the U.S.
      during "the Cold War".

      Projection is an essential aspect of the way that
      nationalism organizes, can be found very active in the
      sense of cultural superiority evident in every major world
      power that has ever been. Nationalism parallels the
      organization of the body-mind around "me", which will need
      to be protected and enhanced.

      Projection and "identification" is the activity of "me" and
      is how "the masses" identify with a nation that provides
      ideals, purpose, rightness, and something "much bigger"
      than the vulnerable individual body-mind.

      The intent to dominate the world cannot, IMO, simply be
      attributed to the condition of "starvation", nor to lack of
      resources. In fact, it takes a great deal of resources to
      mobilize a war machine as the Germans did.

      Feeling humiliated and diminished by the results of WWII
      was the collective projection of the "hurt 'me'", not to
      mention an authoritarian culture that gravitated to a
      leader presenting the illusion of a "strong 'me'".

      The "me's" activity is quite noticeable. The "me" was
      active before the conditions that led to a sense of
      national diminishment, and re-surfaced with a vengance with
      Nazism. Nazism began as an idealistic, nationalistic means
      to instill pride and order. This isnt' to point fingers:
      the American democracy based on the individual
      profit-motive surely generated its share of projection and
      "me-oriented" activity, not just in demolishing Native
      American culture, but very much today in widespread media
      "entertainment" and "commercialism" that thrives on
      generating competition, greed, and aggression.

      Well, end of history lesson. I'm off the soap-box.

      This eternal Now-moment is edgeless and open - my mind is
      silent and I'm appreciative of the day.

      Love, Dan



      Hi Pou,

      I thought it would be fun to take a stab at this question
      (I think I'm the one who keeps bringing Hitler up in polite
      company as if it were relevant to nonduality.) I think it
      is, but only in how it helps me to see my own dilemma. I
      see myself as having responsibility to look closely at who
      I am, just as Ramana Maharshi has suggested. As I try to do
      so, what do I see, but all these defenses? Yikes, I am
      always checking to see if I have just made a blunder or if
      (even worse) someone else is monitoring me for blunders.
      Moment after moment of checking to be sure I am doing this
      life thing correctly. And if I find a mistake, let everyone
      beware, because I will punish myself and anyone standing
      near by (because I am so threatened by the potential loss
      of self-image). I think this is madness, and I think (maybe
      I hope? - so I won't be alone in this) that everyone "else"
      is insane too. My point in mentioning Mr. Hitler is that I
      think his situation and my situation are only different in
      degree, not in essence. I'd like to learn how to undo this
      madness in myself because it causes me suffering and I
      think it causes suffering in those who are nearby when I am
      not subtle about my reactions to it all, which I am getting
      less and less as time goes on. I would say that at the
      present time, I feel like a puppet of this defense game,
      which I could argue that arose from conditioning, and my
      goal is to dismantle the string mechanism and become free
      from this nonsense. I can believe to some extent, without
      having directly proven this, that if the defense mechanism
      can be halted that it would turn out to have been an
      illusion that never in fact truly existed but just a
      thought (an "I" thought) which was never necessary in the
      first place.

      I don't mean this to be an answer for anyone else, I just
      am clarifying my own thinking. thanks.


      Dearest Mark

      Where I live it is time to say goodbyue for all boys and
      girls to go to bed. Because you live in the USA and it is
      probably dinner time. Anyway a quick bedtime story.

      I am touched what you share here. If I may just share a
      little. About eight years ago I was in a terrible dilemma.
      I was working as a psychotherapist and I really learnt how
      to wear the mask - I was looking good going nowhere. But
      behind the mask the castle was crumbling. I was living in a
      wastleland where crops no longer grew and the people in
      this land no longer trusted their king. The King was a
      liar; the King was a fraud, and what's more the King was
      dying, he was dying in being able to make others leave that
      he was really the King. No, this King wasn't called Lear,
      this is King Pou, and every day he began the journey, the
      journey of the three feet, the journey from his knees to
      the ground. The journey that never ever had any other
      journy felt so long. I knew always that that the head and
      the heart are the furthest things apart from the whole
      universe but on the three foot journey it suddenly occurred
      to me that the head had invented the heart. The castle
      crumbled even more and the last of the people left the
      wastelands in search of the new king in the fertile lands.
      All the King's friends left him. His queen, his wise man,
      and wise woman, but the one who never deserted him as you
      can guess was his fool.

      One sunny day after the last person had left in utter
      disgust at the lies, the deceptions and the promises that
      were perpetually held up as truths. THe King fell finally
      on his knees and his face fell into the dirt. He asked the
      question 'am I in the world or is the world in me?' The
      fool started laughing. The King continued asking 'am I in
      the world or is the world in me?' And in a moment it felt
      like an eternity. The King's rusty old crown toppled from
      its place from the King's head and landed in the mud. It's
      jewels no longer sparkled for they too had given up on the
      Kings' dreams lies and deceoptions. But with the fooling of
      the crown, the king's head fell out. This made the fool
      laugh even more. For he had always told the King 'take the
      three foot journey' but the king could never hear the fool
      because he always dreamed of three day journeys to far away
      places in searcy of truth and beatiful women and eternal
      rivers of wine.

      The King slowly got back up onto his knees assisted by the
      fool. The Kin looked into his eyes and said to the fool, I
      feel for the first time I'm ready to learn from you.

      King Mark, for the last eight years, for the last short
      eight years the King became the student and the fool
      claimed his rightful place as the Master.

      Love Pou

      PS This wasn't a story explicitly for you Mark, this was a
      story that you created an avenue for for me to tell
      somebody out there in the universe.



      POU: John, may I ask the question, could you conceive or
      allow the possibility of a dark enlightenment? The reason I
      ask is that here in the realm of mind, the state of
      suffering is endured through holding one duality to the
      exclusion of its opposite. It's at this point it could also
      be clear there is no light and dark enlightenment. For who?

      MARCIA: I know you are asking John this question but if I
      may, I would like answer for myself. I read John's post and
      thought, again, how perceptive he is. I did have one
      lingering question or pondering which you have pointed to.
      I do not think it is totally a matter of man being asleep
      that makes the difference between Hitler being a bum on the
      corner and actualizing what he did. There are people who
      have reached a certain level and have power at their
      disposal that the common man doesn't because he is so
      asleep and dreaming he is awake. This would be IMO what you
      are calling a dark enlightenment. These are powerful



      There is within my personality a part that sees itself as
      'teacher'. This part however, is 'NOT I', it is an aspect
      of my personality. With it comes all sorts of emotional and
      behavioral baggage, 'doing good', vanity, filling the
      messiah complex you spoke of - there are other things,
      also, of practical benefit - like allowing for
      solidification of (my) conceptual grasp and exposition of
      that understanding, developing patience (to write, to read,
      to digest), synthesis, attempting to meet others at their
      level of understanding, assimilating other's views, to
      learn to in turn be taught. Now, what to do about this? Do
      I eschew this part of my personality's existence, believing
      this denial will somehow eliminate this 'presumptuous' side
      of myself?. Do I not express myself because of this
      'unflattering' process of identification with a picture of

      Practically, I do precisely what brings this feature up -
      where I can see it. Where I can smell it, where I can keep
      an eye on it (sometimes). I saw it this morning, before
      coming to work. What did I do? Recognized it. Bow to it.
      Take my sense of 'I' from it. Hold the picture there,
      recognize my projections. Drain it. Throw the picture away.
      Judgment? Right? Wrong? None of these are required. Just
      recognition and awareness that this aspects exists (within
      me) and will come around again. Next time, because there is
      constant familiarization with the taste (not denial of it),
      one could *recognize* it earlier and move sooner. This to
      me is perhaps not the politically correct, but a
      *practical* approach to such an issue. No need to be coy,
      indirect or self-effacing, for this is also part of
      personality and often culturally acquired. Someone states
      their understanding, you state your own, from yourself.

      If you sense an emotional energy coming from what I write
      and a certain flavor of judgment that is because I am in
      the Fourth Way perspective a man number two, emotionally
      centered, judgment is one of the chief weaknesses of
      emotionally centered people. It is also said (the Gospels)
      that to make progress on must convert one's chief weakness
      into one's chief strength (talent).

      What I wrote to Sky about projections of my own low level
      of being onto others is true. I try (when I can remember)
      to use examples of things I have found and verified in
      myself. Therefore I am (trying to) speak from my knowledge
      of myself, not knowledge of another or from supposition of
      another's motives. Someone states something and a part of
      me resonates, I recount what I have observed about this
      part of myself in light of a general aim to awaken. I could
      be totally wrong and off base about the other person, I do
      not know this. I could be misunderstanding. The (other)
      person digesting the information is the determiner of the
      accuracy of the observations offered - based on their own
      self-knowledge. I routinely make an ass of myself this way.
      This too, is okay.

      One observation of Fourth Way schools are that there are
      three methods of thought: Philosophical, Theoretical,

      Most people believe the Philosophical school to be the
      highest, actually, according to the Fourth Way it is the
      lowest. The Practical school is highest.

      The three schools cannot exist without one another. You
      have to have a vision (philosophical) some ideas on how to
      attain the vision (theoretical) and then you have to
      'do'(practical) it (the theories) to attain (philosophical)
      the goal - reverse order to what people normally think.

      If it remains on the level of the first two schools
      (philosophical, theoretical) subjectively perceived results
      are usually (objectively) imaginary (or worse). I can
      recount numerous instances of people in long association
      with philosophical systems who are less able to cope with
      life than your average cab driver, who takes things in
      stride and is more adaptable to the blows of life, than
      someone who has 'worked on themselves' for some time.



      The first issue of the quarterly HarshSatsangha Magazine
      will be out in December. We aim to be a high quality
      spiritual journal with diverse and eclectic content in a
      variety of areas.

      We have several editors now for different sections and are
      still looking for more. Here is a partial listing only:

      For the Astrology section the editor is Sri Linda. Her
      knowledge of Astrology is well known. (By the way, this
      reminds me of Sadaji's excellent exposition on identifying
      the dates of the Mahabharata War through Astrological
      charts - That was quite an excellent article - Sadaji are
      you listening? :-).

      For the Raw Foods/Vegetarianism section, the editor is Sri
      Jan who has been mostly a raw food fruitarian for more than
      a decade now. Jan is one of the rare examples of fruitarian
      yogis today and exemplifies Ahimsa.

      Sri Mark Otter has offered to be the editor of the
      stories/poetry section.

      Horia will be the editor and writing on the topic of

      There are other people like Colette (Web Design editor) and
      Gloria Greco helping me in the background as well and I am
      in communications with others.

      Last week someone left a message on my office phone in an
      Indian language that I do not understand. I have listened
      to the message several times and cannot make it out. I only
      speak and understand punjabi and Hindi. I mention this in
      case it was someone from the lists.

      Here is briefly what the HS Magazine is all about. I am
      pasting this from a previous post.

      HarshaSatsangha will be publishing 4 extremely high quality
      on-line magazines a year (Fall, Winter, Spring, Summer). We
      are going to give the Yoga Journal and other big names a
      run for their money. :-). The first issue will be out in

      We are looking for editors, reviewers, contributors in the
      area of the teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi, Krishnamurti,
      (and others), Kundalini Yoga, Hatha Yoga, and other yogas,
      Traditional Advaita-Nonduality, Poetry, Stories, Astrology,
      Health and wellness, Raw Foods and the vegetarian Diet, and
      other selected topics. Please feel free to contact me
      privately and give your suggestions about what you would
      like to see included in the magazine.

      We are the Ramana generation!

      Love to all Harsha




      Submissions are invited for Nonduality Salon Magazine's
      October issue. Original, unpublished, never-before-posted
      material is preferred. Any topic viewed from a nondual
      perspective is welcome. Please send your submission to me
      by September 21. New members to lists are encouraged to
      submit writings. See the magazine at

      Thank you,

      Jerry Katz

      We are the Nonduality Generation.
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