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Sunday, September 10

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    Sunday was a very rich day, post-wise. Please note that you may access posts as they come in to NDS at
    Message 1 of 1 , Sep 12, 2000
      Sunday was a very rich day, post-wise. Please note that you
      may access posts as they come in to NDS at
      <http://www.escribe.com/religion/nondualitysalon/index.html>
      There is no membership required. There is also a search
      engine which goes back a few days.

      The following letter started an intense on-going thread on
      Hitler, which is bringing much understanding. It includes
      letters from two new members who live in Germany, Manu and
      Florian. It is a lengthy 'Highlights', yet much material is
      left out
      for no particular reason other than space considerations; on
      the other
      hand I wanted all sides represented. I hope it is balanced:

      POU

      Greetings Dan- ji.. Supreme expression of Advaita and the
      absolute non dualism teaching.

      If I may go one more round with you in the full knowledge
      there is no you.... Well then I step into the ring with
      myself then..

      Do you not feel it is only half of the story in adopting
      the view point of.....

      "no- view point?"

      The point I make here Shree Bhagwan Dan-ji with the
      acceptance that 'Dan the man within the enlightened plan'
      as an individual entity does simply not exist in light of..
      Illumination or self-realisation, awakening, enlightenment,
      clear seeing, empty set which or what ever label one
      chooses.

      That the individual will of the assumed identity of Dan has
      dissolved into the universal will and now recognizes itself
      as such in full consciousness.

      I don't know if you might appreciate Richard Wagner music
      or not but anyhow it is reported that his last intended
      opera - The Victors- was on the life of Lord Buddha
      understood from the work of Schopenhauer. Lord Buddha
      awaking to the Realisation that there is no individual 'i'
      Schopenhauer's work that there is only the universal will
      and no individual will as such that you are a part of
      everything and everything is a part of you.. This thread
      runs continuously through the work of Wittgenstein,
      Gurdjieff, Rajneesh, Byron,Advaita, and so on as you so
      mention in your own writings...yes..

      Hitler too lived and breath Schopenhauer and was emphatic
      that suspension of thought was a precondition for action by
      the unowed, universal Self or Will. John might agree,
      Gurdjieff work was a focus at the suspension of thought
      along with Rajneesh and in the case of Rajneesh certainly
      in the early days of his teaching I am told.

      To return to my point here, in the work concerned in the
      realizing of the Real self, one literally goes about seeing
      the emptiness in the illusion solidness all know reference
      points in ones consciousness. The inner mapping system
      formulated through others description of how it all is..

      Would you then agree that this awakening of consciousness,
      the awakening to this 'psychological state' or as Nietzsche
      describe it, being thrown into ones center of beingness
      that in the first 1 to 20 years there also is a non
      understanding of how to be this!

      Many today adopt either to identify souly which the
      stillness, in fear of entering into the phenomenal play of
      consciousness for fear of losing this newly discovered
      Self, or the other extreme of a deep undisclosed sense of
      embarrassment of how to be.

      Some rush to grasp as intellectual concepts, others over
      smoke, use drugs, or drink to much, others rush head long
      into sexual encounters. All in an unconscious..semi
      conscious attempt to delay the overwhelming flood of light
      into one conscious state of being.

      For myself I have discovered that through this awakening..
      and only through this awakening.. is their enough growing
      compassion for oneself, to allow the experiencing of old
      shame, guilt, especially in the light of the sexual
      wounding having growing up in an inexperienced, confused,
      lost, guilty, leaderless, shameful, guilt ridden,
      conceptually fear orientated, fear of God and nature, fear
      of blood, semen, and Dionysian qualities of celebration
      earth sky and the animal kingdom. Well it wasn't just all
      that bad but to a 12 year old it sure felt like it...

      For myself the symbolism of the crucifixion is so apt here,
      well certainly for the psyche of this being, that of Jesus
      experiencing the final betrayal on the 'cross' over from
      the personal to the impersonal in that he becomes true
      human, suffering the human tragedy.

      The spear of Longimus (today it may be the axe blow psych
      logically from the wounded father) enters his body
      releasing the blood with it the emotional waters of a
      spring of life passion and feeling. Within the psyche of
      this being, the young inexperience qualities of the eternal
      youth are gone, ones primal trust is shattered and torn
      apart.. the Masters mask is removed, and only thru this
      enactment is love born, the feminine qualities with in a
      man psyche given birth.

      'Shree Bhagwan Dan- ji' Om OM Om Ommm.. ( nice ring to that
      one) my belief here is how to bring enlightenment down into
      or up into humanness into the day to day reality of this
      life. ( Sure Shit and rose are from the same source) to
      endless see where the avoidance to be human within myself,
      is constantly challenged by escapisms into the
      self-realisation of Self, where the now newly enlightened
      ego parades itself as the 'new herald of understanding,
      anointing itself in newly discovered knowledge of "I am'

      I might await you blessing but you already have given them
      so thank you may the dance continue long after we have all
      disappeared into yonde

      --------------------------------------------

      MARCIA PAUL

      Don't throw Gurdjieff into this pot.

      There is a being in whom certain things have been
      crystallized so as to give power which he terms a
      Hasnamuss.

      "(1) Every kind of depravity, conscious as well as un-
      conscious.

      (2) The feeling of self-satisfaction from leading others
      astray.

      (3) The irresistible inclination to destroy the existence
      of other breathing creatures.

      (4) The urge to become free from the necessity of
      actualizing the being-efforts made by Nature.

      (5) The attempt by every kind of artificiality to con- ceal
      from others what in their opinion are one's physical
      defects.

      (6) The calm self-contentment in the use of what is not
      personally deserved.

      (7) The striving to be not what one is."

      Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson

      ---------------------------------------------

      GLORIA LEE AND JOHN DUFF, RESPONDING TO POU:

      JOHN: John would not agree.

      Hitler and Schopenhauer probably both ate boiled beef and
      potatoes and both peed standing up, your point is what?
      That peeing standing up makes me, Gurdjieff and
      Schopenhauer like Hitler? This is formatory thought. If the
      oh-so-subtle implications be grasped at by the person prone
      to judgment. So, let me turn that part of myself on for a
      second and say:

      GLORIA: There is a brilliance to this logic John uses here,
      in that he perfectly illustrates the fallacy of Pou's logic
      in making his comparisons. Sure, anyone may form and voice
      their opinion, but is it an educated opinion based on any
      reasonable approximation to the historical facts and
      scholarly opinion?

      Wagner claimed to have been inspired by reading
      Schopenhauer, whether he in fact understood it is another
      matter. It is a fact tho, that Schopenhauer despised
      Wagner's music and publically so stated verbally and in
      writing. There is more that just musical taste at stake
      with such allegations, for it is well known the uses Hitler
      made of Wagner's music.

      The "not innuendo", but direct statements by Pou to the
      effect that Hitler was inspired by reading Schopenhauer, do
      a grave disservice to the intent and meaning of
      Scopenhauer's philosophy, as they do to Buddhism. Anyone
      who might care to educate themselves not only by actually
      reading Schopenhauer, but also by what is now the
      acknowledged scholarly opinion of his work and influence on
      subsequent philosophers,.. well, they would KNOW this to be
      an error.

      Putting aside for the moment whatever opinions one may have
      about Hitler, there is a gross factual distortion of a man
      and his philosophy here, tho to adequately defend him
      requires more detailed explanation than this. I am not
      asking anyone to just take my word for this..but if you
      actually care, you might read up on him.

      Pou is more than just offering an opinion, he is malinging
      Schopenhauer quite falsely, by possibly just being
      ignorant. His motive and intent to bring neo-nazism as a
      topic here is a bit murky to say the least. If anyone's
      understanding of nonduality is that it somehow justifies
      mass genocide, perhaps they need to re-think their
      understanding. But let's not let opinions stand with equal
      weight to the known facts.

      --------------------------------------------

      JERRY K.

      "Hitler too lived and breathed Schopenhauer and was
      emphatic that suspension of thought was a precondition for
      action by the unowed, universal Self or Will."

      You mention Hitler so casually.

      ----------------------------------------------

      POU

      Jerry I not sure if you are aware of some of the e-mails
      between Pou and others, especially Dan-ji in the immediate
      time span re the discussion of personal doer ship or
      individual identification as a 'me'

      Dan-ji has stated unequivocally in recent previous mail
      addressing Pou, that Dan-ji is totally conscious of the
      Realisation he is the Self, and not an entity acting as
      Dan. He clearly has stated as I understood, thru an
      impersonal seeing that there is no individual 'i' operating
      through any body mind neither Dan-ji, Pou or anyone else
      for that matter...

      May I ask Jerry are you or have you, adopted the view
      point, that what Pou has write to Consciousness playing the
      part of Dan-ji, that there is an air of casualness when
      speaking of Dan-ji, Herr Hitler, and others in the same
      paragraph?

      So I'm clear.. Do you judge this as Pou's response to
      Dan-ji as causal. are you being serious as in hurt by this
      or playful in conscious exchange of view points..

      If I may say so your own web site Jerry www. non- duality
      .com I admire and consider it to be of the finest
      definitions and unique calibers for an open forum in
      presenting truth. Beyond personal concepts, ideas, and
      believes system that perpetuate the game of separation
      between beings of such innocence in search of wholeness.

      I belief in the unfolding flowering of Consciousness
      especially today, where so many people like yourself Jerry
      have or are in process of awaking in Truth from the deep
      sleep of the illusional separation, re into divine Self
      Realisation where peace of mind is supreme eloquence.

      I personally do understand that awakening means to awaken
      from the dream play and upon an impersonal awakening, all
      that is part of the dream, also simultaneously awakens
      within the deep Realisation there are no others..

      Casual far from it. I work in Germany. There certainly is
      nothing casual about the German psyche in my understanding.

      Interestingly there is more Satsang s available in Germany
      today, than any other place I am aware of More Enlightened
      teachers appear from the US of A directly to Germany than
      any other country in Europe.

      Good question why Germany? You may or may not agree the
      recent past of unfolding events in Consciousness certainly
      may have a direct association to why the German Volk or
      people are so committed to the work in Consciousness. I
      personally have never experienced such deep commitment
      anywhere to breaking free from the clutches of egoistic
      greed orientated patterns of behavior.

      It would appear today Jerry, many awaken to the first stage
      of self-realisation and become very identified with the new
      found freedom of no 'i' Rajneesh is reported to have once
      stated that people say stuck in the enlightened identity
      for thousands of life times..

      I'm very certain in your own magnificent research in
      creating your site you have personally witnessed many
      teachers with powerful deep realist ions of enlightenment
      and yet still there is the acting out of clearly
      demonstrations of greed. Ignorance. And anger...

      It the old story to becomes everyone and everything to the
      degree that dishonesty and denial of responsibility is
      unthinkable..

      -------------------------------------

      SARLO

      This sharing about Hitler has brought up some very
      interesting stuff, something we have all internalized in
      our own ways. It is a good device to explore our hooks and
      blessings. I particularly appreciated Dan and Melody,
      although they had very different and even clashing
      offerings.

      I believe Melody is trying to encourage a deeper look at
      the subject rather than recycling old non-response-able
      opinions that have stood the test of time. She is doing
      this because the old durable understandings have not healed
      the wounds in people's hearts.

      She brought up the genocide of the Native Americans as a
      way of focusing on the fact that the Holocaust against
      European Jewry was not unique, and the Germans not alone as
      perpetrators. In fact, as some militant African Americans
      point out, the American holocaust against their own race
      far exceeded the German pogrom, in total body count and
      perhaps brutality if not efficiency. This comparison does
      not invalidate anyone's suffering or feelings, it is just
      more perspective.

      Sky, who lost half of his relatives, Jerry, Dan, Gloria,
      Melody, Pou and others all have something to contribute.
      Great stuff! My own contribution is less personal because i
      haven't had so much contact with particular suffering in
      this respect. But in Osho's communes around the world this
      has also been a big issue which has often been an occasion
      for moving energy, because he has attracted so many Jews
      and Germans, who continually rub up against each other.
      This is what he had to say to a questioner once on the
      subject.....

      BELOVED OSHO, RECENTLY RUDOLPH HESS, ONE OF THE LAST NAZI
      BIG SHOTS, COMMITTED SUICIDE IN JAIL IN BERLIN, WHERE HE
      WAS IMPRISONED FOR FORTY-SIX YEARS. HE WAS THE RIGHT HAND
      MAN OF ADOLF HITLER. "I DON'T REPENT ANYTHING," HE SAID
      BEFORE THE COURT IN NUREMBURG, "AND IF I COULD START FROM
      THE VERY BEGINNING, I WOULD DO THE SAME THING AGAIN."
      BELOVED MASTER, CAN YOU SAY SOMETHING ABOUT FORGIVENESS,
      EVEN FOR PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO BE UNWORTHY OF IT.

      Deva Shanta, it is one of the most fundamental things to
      understand. People ordinarily think that forgiveness is for
      those who are worthy of it, who deserve it. But if somebody
      deserves, is worthy of forgiveness, it is not much of a
      forgiveness. You are not doing anything on your part; he
      deserves it. You are not really being love and compassion.
      Your forgiveness will be authentic only when even those who
      don't deserve it receive it. It is not a question of
      whether a person is worthy or not. The question is whether
      your heart is ready or not. I am reminded of one of the
      most significant woman mystics, Rabiya al-Adabiya, a Sufi
      woman who was known for her very eccentric behavior. But in
      all her eccentric behavior there was a great insight. Once,
      another Sufi mystic Hasan was staying with Rabiya. Because
      he was going to stay with Rabiya, he had not brought his
      own holy KORAN, which he used to read every morning as part
      of his discipline. He thought he could borrow Rabiya's holy
      KORAN, so he had not brought his own copy with him. In the
      morning he asked Rabiya, and she gave him her copy. He
      could not believe his eyes. When he opened the KORAN he saw
      something which no Mohammedan could believe: in many places
      Rabiya had corrected it. It is the greatest sin as far as
      Mohammedans are concerned; the KORAN is the word of God
      according to them. How can you change it? How can you even
      think that you can make something better? Not only has she
      changed it, she has simply cut out a few words, a few lines
      -- removed them. Hasan said to her, "Rabiya, somebody has
      destroyed your KORAN!" Rabiya said, "Don't be stupid,
      nobody can touch my KORAN. What you are looking at is my
      doing." Hasan said, "But how could you do such a thing?"
      She said, "I had to do it, there was no way out. For
      example, look here: the KORAN says, `When you see the
      devil, hate him.' Since I have become awakened I cannot
      find any hate within me. Even if the devil stands in front
      of me I can only shower him with my love, because I don't
      have anything else left. It does not matter whether God
      stands in front of me, or the devil; both will receive the
      same love. All that I have is love; hate has disappeared.
      The moment hate disappeared from me I had to make changes
      in my book of the holy KORAN. If you have not changed it,
      that simply means you have not arrived to the space where
      only love remains." I will say to you, Deva Shanta, the
      people who don't deserve, the people who are unworthy,
      don't make any difference to the man who has come to the
      space of forgiveness. He will forgive, irrespective of who
      receives it. He cannot be so miserly that only the worthy
      should receive it. And from where is he going to find
      UNforgiveness? This is a totally different perspective. It
      does not concern itself with the other. Who are you to make
      the judgment whether the other is worthy or unworthy? The
      very judgment is ugly and mean. I know Rudolph Hess is
      certainly one of the greatest criminals. And his crime
      becomes even a millionfold bigger, because in the Nuremburg
      trial with the remaining companions of Adolf Hitler -- who
      killed almost eight million people in the second world war
      -- he said in front of the court, "I don't repent
      anything!" Not only that, he also said, "And if I could
      start from the very beginning, I would do the same thing
      again." It is very natural to think this man is not worthy
      of forgiveness; that will be the common understanding.
      Everybody will agree with you. But I cannot agree with you.
      It does not matter what Rudolf Hess has done, what he is
      saying. What matters is that you are capable of forgiving
      even him. That will raise your consciousness to the
      ultimate heights. If you cannot forgive Rudolf Hess you
      will remain just an ordinary human being, with all kinds of
      judgments of worthiness, of unworthiness. But basically you
      cannot forgive him because your forgiveness is not big
      enough.

      ----------------------------------

      MELODY ANDERSON

      Rather than branding him, rather than judging (Pou).... why
      not listen to him? Why not listen and invite the entire
      story to unfold? Why try to 'banish' what you may fear as
      'evil'?

      Wouldn't this be a great place to put an end to an ancient
      patterning?

      ...

      This is what (Dalai Lama) also says,

      "Our normal state of mind is heavily biased."

      We have an attitude of distance from people that we
      consider unfriendly or enemies and a disproportionate sense
      of closeness or attachment toward those whom we consider to
      be our friends. We can see how our emotional response
      toward others is fluctuating and biased.

      Until we overcome these prejudices, we have no possibility
      of generating genuine compassion. Even though we might be
      able to feel a certain amount of compassion toward some
      people, that compassion, as long as it is not based on
      profound equanimity, will remain biased, for it is mixed
      with attachment."

      As long as our compassion is saved for the 'victims' and
      not offered, with equanimity, to the 'Hitlers', it is not
      genuine compassion. It is an embracing of one 'side', and a
      rejection of an 'other'. It is, in kindergarten terms,
      'choosing sides'.

      ...

      I am not Jewish, nor am I German. But I am someone who has
      known the experience of brutality, and remember quite
      vividly how painful it was to me that family and friends
      were willing to continue to 'associate' with, and want to
      get to know... and be around ... the one who had caused me
      so much pain. It felt like a choosing. And it hurt like
      hell that others were not willing to simply condemn my
      abuser to eternal hell.

      On the other hand, for as long as I can remember, I,
      myself, always wanted to understand him I wanted to
      understand the 'forces at play' which would set such
      brutality in motion. In a way, I remember feeling even at
      the age of 12, that somehow the pain would be lessened, if
      I could know HIS pain, as well.....if I could see HIM,
      underneath his actions.

      Looking back, I realize that I never really wanted him 'to
      burn in hell'. What I really wanted was to know I was
      loved, to know someone cared, to look into the eyes of
      compassion, yes...for one . But beyond that, I wanted very
      much for it NOT to 'be for naught'.

      And if, as Gene wrote, I could use this experience to untie
      a Karmic knot, then this childhood of suffering would have
      been well spent.


      -------------------------------------------

      SKY

      Yes, Melody, I share your views so whole heartedly that I
      am tempted to ask you to marry me. Hope I don't offend.
      Does this help, : ^)? Yes, equanimity and compassion! But I
      don't think that's enough. It never will be. Heaven is not
      attainable: There is no such thing as spiritual progress
      for any politically significant number of people. The Tower
      of Babel proves that, it is testified to by this site.

      Hitler, Washington and Stalin all achieved and maintained
      power through genocide. Historically, no nation has ever
      been founded and maintained without genocide. (Now, I said
      those three names in the same breath. Although almost all
      my relatives on my mother's side were killed in the
      holocaust.... )

      Politics has it's own laws. Jerry's statement was a
      statement of power, not of "right" or "wrong." If I had
      said, "get off this site," it would have been me who'd
      gotten the shaft, and recently did, in a sense...
      Washington and Stalin (sorry about including them in the
      same sentence, though they, like HItler, did as much
      genocide as their current technology permitted them to do)
      are not as universally condemned for political, not moral
      reasons. Stalin killed tens of millions more than did
      Hitler. Why aren't we saying "Stalin" instead of "HItler,"
      or "Mao," who killed even more? Because we don't have too
      many Siberian or Manchurian concentration camp victims here
      among us.

      Gloria, regarding who is really HItler and who is really
      Schopenhauer, no one on this site is admitting that they're
      who they are, why should we be sticklers for identity
      regarding people we are probably even more unfamiliar with?
      I'm "familiar" with the academic game, and I think you are
      too. We both know that for every expert's final canon,
      there is an equal and opposite expert's final canon.

      This is how politics works. And differences are never
      resolved on the basis of morality. They're resolved through
      scandal and spin. Just look and see! As years go by,
      everything is revised, divergence flourishes. Just like the
      tree I refer to, and the Tower of Babel.

      For me, this site is a potential source for spiritual
      growth because it burns away the defiles of political
      babbling precisely by recapitulating them to the point of
      absurdity. Any insight will and must remain primarily
      private. And is there anyone here who has found internal
      consensus? No, in fact, our claims are precisely to the
      contrary.

      And yes, Marcia, I saw "Thin Red Line," on your
      recommendation. And isn't that what Sean Penn's character
      resigned himself to when he said that we either believe
      "their" lie and go along or they will kill us? The only
      solution is to distance oneself internally. Isn't that what
      history teaches?

      Yes, even on NDS, we must remain politically correct.
      Because the public realm is the realm of politics. And
      politics requires sacrifice, and sacrifice requires power,
      and power requires repression of one kind or another.

      To paraphrase a line in "The Thin Red Line," Larry is the
      father and the rest of us are his children. I don't know
      who's the wife, although I have my speculations. But I know
      that those here are ranked in accordance to seniority and
      favor.

      I have no objections to this. I know now tough it is to be
      the father. It takes a lot more work than I'm doing for
      NDS. But like any adolescent, I want to test and kibitz,
      throw the father's own idealism in his face. And when he
      gets angry, I've learned something about how patience
      either works or does not.

      That is the one final paradox Id like to address, it's the
      one we always throw at the father and the one we always
      experience with anguish: Love means tolerance of others'
      intolerance. It is impossible to be intolerant in the name
      of love without engaging in some form of hypocrisy or
      another.

      This, I believe, is the core dilemma of being. It simply
      cannot be resolved, except in the moment of warm
      heartedness. May we remember. Though we cannot but forget.
      Love is here BECAUSE we forget. Otherwise, love is
      meaningless. We must turn our love precisely toward those
      without it. That what it's for:

      Warmth against the cold.

      -----------------------------------------------

      Dan wrote: All our feelings have a place in the "great
      interdependent scheme of arisings".

      That means, that yes, there is a time for expressing a
      feeling of revulsion or anger.

      An honest response to seeing murder, torture, negation,
      etc. in the human community, seems quite useful from here,
      and having no reaction while claiming a stance of
      "nonduality" seems less than fully response-able. Check
      with the Dalai Lama if you don't believe me ;-)

      MELODY: No one here would disagree.

      But continuing to respond today to a murder that happened
      50 years ago, is not 'response-able', as you seem to be
      suggesting.....

      it is reaction-ary.

      And to cloak it as something else seems rather
      disingenuous.

      GLORIA: But isn't that EXACTLY what you are doing
      here..re-labeling? Now those still feeling outraged by
      Hitler's genocide are "reaction-ary"...

      MELODY: What I feel rather certain that the Dalai Lama
      would agree with.... is that if one truly wants to live a
      life of compassion, one learns to 'let go of' the fear and
      hatred and outrage one holds in one's heart for heartless
      acts of brutality ......whether those acts are perpetrated
      by a family memeber ....or by a government against a
      particular culture.

      GLORIA: So?? Does that letting go require in any way seeing
      those "heartless acts of brutality" as anything different
      than what they were? The Dalai Lama has repeatedly stated
      that he does not "hate" the Chinese...but he still speaks
      out against the continuing destruction of his people and
      his homeland.

      MELODY:Here's one interesting coincidence: Yesterday, the
      US Government's Head of Indian Affairs issued an apology on
      behalf of the US Government, to the Native American people,
      for it's policy of genocide against them. They admitted
      that the policy of the US government was to extinguish the
      Native American people and it's cultures.

      We are what we abhor, aren't we?

      GLORIA: And your point is? The basis of this abhorrence is
      not "OUR" claim to any supposed innocence. You are the one
      who seems to "see that" in our responses, no one is
      claiming to be exempt from human nature here. To see that
      human nature is capable of all manner of depravity and
      greed does not mean we are just "in denial" of that
      potential in us, as human beings. If you want to tar all
      cultures and times equally, by saying we are all guilty by
      association with our own equally flawed heritage...the
      facts certainly substantiate that. Before western
      civilization found the 2 Americas, there were estimated to
      be 60 million indigenous people, and about a century later,
      2 million. Of course, disease took more lives than outright
      murder.

      But having insight and a willingness to understand what
      within us as human beings allows such events to occur
      doesn't mean we need retroactively pardon Naziism, American
      slavery, etc. nor does it require a ho-hum response to
      discussions about them. You truly do seem to be suggesting
      that in order to prove we are not just reaction-ary or
      claiming some pretended goodness...that we should like
      re-visit this whole issue and come to some "different"
      conclusion than what has been the verdict, that it was an
      atrocity. I do seriously question the need to do that.

      -----------------------------------

      ED ARRONS

      It seems the appropriate response to Hitler (after
      expressing rage to his actions) lies in uinderstanding the
      personal and social conditions that gave rise to his power.
      No harm in 'nondualists', who are still secretly harboring
      rage at Hitler (or excusing it) to spend a little time
      there.

      Without this understanding of 'Hitler', others will (and
      have) come to power with no less brutality. But as long as
      the name "Hitler" is there to kick around, the brutality of
      others will be (and have been) more casually dismissed.
      There is an unhealthy attachment to "Hitler" that
      perpetuates human suffering.

      Does it not seem possible, that with the understanding of
      Hitler's 'reality', there will be a deeper understanding of
      society and its relation to self-realization?

      ------------------------------

      MANU

      I just subscribed and read some of the last e-mails which
      got presented through this e-group.

      I want to share some of my thoughts about this:

      As I am German I feel especially asked as you mentioned
      that one German unsubscribed today - maybe (as you put out)
      after reading the conversation. I don't feel like
      unsubscribing at all: Why should I ?! Because somebody
      mentioned Hitler?

      For me as a German to read this sounds quite strange - as I
      feel relieved that this issue finally starts to be seen
      through other glasses than just the belief systems
      remaining in black and white - that finally it starts to be
      brought into the space of non-duality. And this without
      avoiding the human, very painful side of it. I think it is
      a matter of levels - and why not challenging the "there is
      no I" and "we are all one" with some hot stuff so see where
      we are at.

      I know that there is just the seperation that I create and
      that Hitler as well as Rajneesh or my neighbour is also
      part of me. And the only way to really work on this is to
      feel it all and take it all back to myself. When I remain
      in putting Hitler outside and condemning my picture of him
      I keep the war going on. The obvious experience is that
      there are always two sides - and to judge and label one
      side (or both) keeps the show going on for it always needs
      a balance.

      Love and bye for now Manu

      ------------------------------------

      FLORIAN

      I am really impressed by the strong and also emotional
      response Pou´s mentioning Hitler had in this beautiful
      eGroup called "Non-Duality". I am new in this group and I
      am German (by the way excuse my simple English). Pou seems
      to touch quite a wound also in this circle just by
      mentioning this magical name. In my country we try to
      forget him, keep him out of our minds or tie him up with
      everything we dispise in our psyche and keep the whole
      package in the realms of an unfortunate history. My
      understanding is: until we cannot see Hitler as the same
      manifestation of the one consciousness or call it will of
      God, as anything or anybody else in this world , this wound
      cannot heal, and shame and reaction to shame will
      perpetuate the same old story of destruction on the level
      of human history. I really love the fact, that Pou
      triggered this discussion. My best regards, Florian.

      -----------------------------

      SARAH WINTER

      Dear Gloria,

      I did not understand how you come to the conclusion that
      Pou could have the intention of justifying mass genocide,
      bringing neo-nazism into the discussion or tried to
      malinging Schopenhauers work. I think, Melody got the point
      in seeing that Pou simply wants to bring the attention to
      the phenomenon of Adolf Hitler in association with non-dual
      philosophy. And that is certainly a very delicate issue, I
      am German myself and I totally embrace the feelings of
      shame and the wound that was created in the German psyche.

      Apart from that my understanding is, as long as I cannot
      see Buddha and Hitler as being one in consciousness, I am
      still dreaming!

      Much love Sarah Winter

      _____________________________________________________________

      GENE POOLE

      Gene,

      Just one question: Do you ever experience anxiety?

      sky

      GENE: Hmmm...

      Years ago, I would have this sort of experience, and quite
      frequently: -Sound of ringing in ears/head -Sweating
      -Trembling -Rapid irregular heartbeat -Hyperventilation
      -Tingling all over -Inability to speak, at least coherently
      -Panic, fear -Flashes of light before my eyes -Followed by
      exhaustion -Followed by feelings of utter worthlessness and
      incompetence

      I sought medical help, to no avail. "Panic attacks",
      "Anxiety Attacks", I was told, and various medications were
      prescribed, which I tried and abandoned.

      I entered psychotherapy, did that for about 15 years, on
      and off. It was a big help, really. I 'got' many insights,
      all relating to how I was 'doing relationship' by methods
      derived from my family of origin.

      But by pushing forward and funneling my energies into
      Tantric behaviours and expressions, I experienced such an
      'attack' that I have never recovered, Thank Heavens.

      The first of the 'Final Attacks' smashed me utterly. A
      small voice inside was saying 'Kundalini'. So I bought
      books about Kundalini and read them.

      I realized that my chronic panic attacks and anxiety
      resulted from me, pushing down what HAD TO COME UP. It was
      difficult, but I allowed it to come up. Now it is up and
      out; now, I live in a universe lovingly drawn by Ma
      Kundalini. I allowed her her freedom; I let her go.

      I see now, how my Tantric practices, my dysfunctional
      relationships with women, all had to do with my world-dream
      conditioning that I should be in control of women; this put
      me into deep conflict with my own 'inner woman'. Problem
      is, she in not only my mother, but the mother of the entire
      Universe; I could literally not control her. I let her go,
      I let her have her own way. I do not do her thinking for
      her.

      World-dream dominator-culture patriarchal-hierarchy
      conditioning expected me to enact machismo male-dominance
      not only of 'outer' women, but also (and this is what it is
      really for) my inner woman, what CG Jung called 'Anima'.
      This was the source of my inner conflict, and thus of my
      anxiety.

      This issue is not 'totally' resolved within me, Sky, but I
      know now, what I can and cannot do. I can live in faith
      that everything is really okay, and I cannot exert control
      over others. If I forget these important guidelines,
      darkness falls and I have anxiety.

      Anxiety therefore is in inter-system communication; it is a
      signal from my conscience, that I am doing something wrong.
      If I am touched by anxiety, I stop, I pause, until I can
      focus on what I am doing. I usually find that I am behaving
      automatically, rather than consciously.

      In this regard, anxiety is my best friend, who gently
      informs me when I am blowing it. I no longer argue with
      her.

      So yes, I do experience anxiety, but I no longer fight it,
      I follow it as it leads me deep into my conscience. I no
      longer consider anxiety to be 'pathology', as I once did. I
      am grateful for my own exquisite sensitivity; and I know
      that others are just as sensitive.

      I put all of my remedial behaviours into one category,
      which I call 'having compassion for myself'. I do have
      compassion for myself. And I advocate that everyone have
      compassion for themselves.

      The whole world-dream control-trip is a painful fire; it
      exists solely for the purpose of teaching us that it is not
      only painful, but utterly destructive, to control others
      and to ruthlessly control ourselves.

      Compassion for oneself is the answer to the call of
      anxiety.

      ==Gene 'my name is space' Poole

      ____________________________________________________________________

      Last night, a spring rain started to fall, it'll probably
      be the last rain now until the fall in March or April.

      I went to the window and looked out and smelled the fresh
      spring air. Two green avacado trees moving rythmically to
      the wind.

      My awareness went beyond to Self, I asked, "what do you
      want to see?", and before I could finsih the question I
      heard, "You know"!

      Ahhhh.. what day is it?

      Love Dave

      ____________________________________________-
      --
      We are the Nonduality Generation.
      http://www.nonduality.com
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