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ND digest for Monday

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  • Melody
    A sampling of postings from the Nonduality Salon for Monday, July 12. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Petros: this spiritual openness can be
    Message 1 of 1 , Jul 13, 1999
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      A sampling of postings from the Nonduality Salon
      for Monday, July 12.

      Petros: this spiritual openness can be
      misinterpreted as sensuality when that is
      not the message one is intending to send.


      This touches on an aspect I am still not comfortable with.

      I have recognized that because we are essentially all the love there is in
      miriad expressions, at core we are all totally in love with each other all
      the time. There are some expressions (people) who are easier to be in this
      love with, but rather than making it easier to be with them, it frightens me.
      Since it's fear it has to be based in memory, not present Self.

      As one well known to Mother Shakti there are times when pure love is felt so
      passionately that it can be mistaken for romantic attraction - by me or by
      someone else.

      There is one solution for every discomfort, every fear and every expectation.
      I am present with this in myself, watching the complex of responses, and
      resting as I feel and watch. There is good news in seeing how I have tried
      to manage this vulnerability and letting management go.


      >I'd just rather let the world go and rest in Self now. >Everything is
      taken care of in that.

      Tim Lambert:

      At one time did you not strive? And after you strove and were
      exhausted, did you not rest? And then, when your energy was restored,
      did you not strive again? Like a boulder rolling down a mountainside,
      its descent often blocked, yet eventually each obstruction comes to be
      cleared and the boulder is free once again to seek a more lasting state
      of rest.


      Tim Lambert


      there came a time when for me, there was no past, no history ... just like I
      wrote about ...
      and that's real scary at times ...
      for the identity sense suddenly has nothing ... no foundation on which to base
      itself ...
      thats when living in the moment comes in ...

      and from my experience ... living in the moment is something the body
      ain't real good at ... lets face it ... for most of our history, the images we
      get of that state are of some geeza sitting on a rubbish tip smelling of
      staring into space with a vacant look on his face ... maybe going OM ...


      Gene had said...
      > "Duality" is... a 'universal analogy', a symbolic map of actual 'reality'.
      > Duality is experieced as 'real', until an individual experiences a
      > 'disconnect' or interruption of 'duality'. Duality... is not the enemy, it
      > is similar to the GUI (Graphical User Interface) of a modern user-friendly
      > computer; 'duality' is a way to 'point and click', to be able to navigate
      > in utter ignorance of actual 'reality'. Most users have no idea, what is
      > 'underneath' the icons and symbols which they point to and click on;
      > similarly, most people have no idea what an visial image really 'is', only
      > what it can 'do for them'.

      > Ivan: Let's clear something here. The very usefull relation subject-object
      > doesn't imply in duality, I feel. The human dimension, the human field, the
      > human mind as a whole, have implicit in it the proper GUI --as you call it--
      > everything that is needed to lead an apropriate life, with all it's
      > Duality apears with the assumption of the internal centered entity, it
      > Without the center, awarenwss is it's content, and there is not duality,
      > the healthy multiplicity inherent to manifestation. The ability to
      > my body from another is not duality. One knows that all is one coin
      > with two sides, manifestation-non manifestation, creation-created -- so I
      > wouldn't call it duality. So it is not clear your statement: *duality is
      >not the
      > enemy* -- I'm sure a matter of words.....(?)

      Okay... I finally get where you are 'coming from'. Yes, you are correct,
      IMO, in your response to me. I blame myself for not stressing enough, the
      'etiology' of 'duality'. From my viewing, all of the natural phenomenal
      world, is an elaboration on a theme, as you say below ("as above, so
      below"), which as I see it, 'permeates' the human experience ("order").
      What you are referring to as 'duality' is in my view, the consequence of
      thousands of years of uncritical acceptance of 'appearances', a gloss or
      surface examination only perhaps, but looking within was seen to be against
      the interests of the tribe (except the Shaman).

      'Duality' is not the enemy', as a statement, is meant by me, to offer that
      we 'see' through 'dualistic lenses', because those lenses are what we are
      gifted with as young children. Be this as it may, my effort is to show the
      smooth, indistinguishable line of demarcation between the 'world of
      phenomenon' (based in time, memory) and the assumptions which are carried
      as to the nature of reality (duality). It is not suprising that humans
      model their thoughts on the basis of thoughts that are modeled to them
      first. The 'entire exisiting universe', the playground of 'science', serves
      to bolster the traditional human asumptions as to what is real, and why
      things are the way they are. "Methods of verification" are based on...
      what? What is the 'metric of reality'?

      > Nonduality, then, is the revealing of the Being underlying reality, the
      > basic fundament of Being, which is of course, me. (for me, of course. For
      > you, it is you.) That is why it is said... that I am That. Only I may say
      > that, and only you may say that. I cannot legitimately say, "You are That",
      > without again becoming entangled in the analogy (duality).
      > Ivan: I am that...yes it is clear from here...the centered observer is
      > Not my name, no the image of me...

      Gene: I am glad that you can see some use in my 'universal analogy'
      metaphor; duality is easier to see, as something to avoid, as a trap, or
      error. it is not so easy to see that 'duality' is what validates this
      entire written vocabulary (looked at from a social perspective, I mean).

      > Ivan: Well, definitly your use of the word *ego* is very peculiar, not
      >say very
      > unique or personal. In the usual sense of the word, it is not the ego
      that is
      > the translator, it is the almoust insctintive function of brain/memory.
      >It is the
      > proper functioning of the healthy human mind. Ego, as I said above, in the
      > usual meaning of it, is the centered observer conceptualised by thought, as
      > that inner entity that feels that knows what and who it is -- mistakenly.
      >I wonder
      > if we could clear this words...

      Gene: Ahhh... now we are getting somewhere. From my view, there is no
      distinct boundary between the theorized 'parts' of a human Being or human
      psyche; it all 'telescopes into itself' and is able to be talked about this
      way, through the invention of particularizing/dissecting words. That such
      words are used, does not in my opinion, create the pieces/parts which are
      referred to. So for me, there is literally no center (never has been,
      except in times of very extreme pain) and thus no difference; all apparent
      differences, I state to be 'functional' rather than 'organic'.

      So my pointing is to the 'spectrum' of apparent phenomenon, from gross to
      subtle, which includes 'duality' as a 'near-spiritual' perception. Usually,
      nondual seeing requires special training, or at least the validation of an
      experienced seer.

      Finally, I see 'ego' as a concept which fits only in the world-dream model
      (duality), along with all of the other particular discriptors of human
      nature. Still, I enjoy talking about this, for there is certainly a way for
      all of the supposed pieces to fit together 'properly'. The common error is
      to suppose that there is something real, which can be known, and which then
      is to be used as the basis for all further comparisons; this is the error
      of duality, with its supposed abilty to perceive and know 'right from
      wrong'. I am unaware of anything outside of myself; this is a trick

      Gloria posted some of Jerry's old posts:

      Subject: Re: IS-NESS-Taking non-duality seriously
      Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:40:41 PDT

      I call my own nondualism thing foolishness while
      carefully looking after my own website on it. You
      can't hold onto anything. Between the foolishness of nondualism and the
      confessions of nondualism, there
      is a seam of What Is. And that too breaks down to foolishness and
      confessions...and so on...The trick
      is to stay within the seam, the Interval. Some call
      the Interval Truth and Love. Okay. I call it the
      Interval. Today. Tomorrow something else. It is not possible to hold onto
      anything and survive that


      I hate email. I hate the computer. I hate everybody
      I ever met. I hate everybody and everything. It's
      just not fair.


      P.S. Okay, now that I've calmed down... I do not take seriously nondualism
      or any other "way" of relating to reality. One cannot relate to reality.
      One cannot talk about anything. Therefore, I can say anything I want.
      Nondualism allows for that. While I don't take it
      seriously, nondualism is where I always end up.

      It is a good test for anyone. Whatever you know, stop taking it seriously.
      If it is still where you end up,
      it is real knowledge. Take breathing, for example. Tell yourself you are
      not going to take it seriously. Tell people how crazy it is to breathe.
      Then watch yourself.
      It is happening. You are breathing. But you can say whatever you want about
      it in order to demonstrate that
      it is your nature. I take neither nondualism nor
      breathing seriously, because they cannot be taken
      at all. They are what is.


      >I trust you. I am not different than you. I do not live >by the
      remembrance of a single word.

      Jerry: Yes. It is okay to say Truth is beyond Love, and Truth and Love are
      the same. That is clear. I accept either one and both together and neither
      one, all at

      The forest is big with people moving through it. It doesn't matter which
      tree falls, there's somebody
      there to hear it. Truth is the space the forest is in. Love is every living
      and non-living thing in the
      forest. Anything can happen in the forest, including
      total annihilation of every living and non-living thing. You still have the
      space the forest occupies. That is Truth. Unchanging, including all things


      Xan offered some Rumi:


      Those who don't feel this love
      pulling them like a river,
      those who don't drink dawn
      like a cup of springwater
      or take in sunset
      like supper,
      those who don't want to change,
      let them sleep.

      This love
      is beyond the study of theology,
      that old trickery and hypocrisy.
      If you want to improve your mind
      that way, sleep on.

      I've given up on my brain,
      I've torn the cloth to shreds
      and thrown it away.
      If you're not completely naked,
      wrap your beautiful robe
      of words around you
      and sleep.

      There's a strange frenzy in my head,
      of birds flying,
      each particle circulating on its own.
      Is the one I love

      ....which prompted:

      for rumi,
      who taught me
      poetry being a process and not words
      poetry ing a process and not words
      poetr ng a process and not words
      poe g a process and not words
      po a process and not word
      p process and not wor
      rocess and not wo
      ocess and not w
      cess and not
      ess and no
      ss and n
      s and
      s and n
      ss and no
      ess and not
      cess and not
      ocess and not w
      rocess and not wo
      p process and not wor
      po a process and not wo
      poe g a process and not w
      poet ng a process and not
      poetr ing a process and no
      poetry eing a process and n
      poetry being a process and not
      yes and no

      sister aleks


      happy monday. this morning i was

      watering the lawn against 104 degree heat, sending thought forms to tim g,
      and knowing it is frustrating not to be able to touch the earth and not to
      seem to be in the arms of the beloved either. to be in possession of divine
      intellect and these seeming contraries can be hell. much love to you, your
      awareness, brother. this is beautiful and hard discrimination.

      got to thinking about all of these prayer flags i see all over when i go into
      town. they are colorful, and i like the idea of the wind carrying prayers on
      its way. i like the idea of disintegration of the fabric field. i looked
      at one closely, and i can't read it. i don't understand the language that's
      printed thereon.

      i think i would like pure white prayerflags of surrender in my yard.

      since we're rumi-nating, here's one that tears me apart and reassembles me
      all in one blow:

      no flag
      by rumi
      tr. by coleman barks

      "I used to want buyers for my words.
      Now i wish someone would buy me away from words.

      I've made a lot of charmingly profound images,
      scenes with Abraham, and Abraham's father, Azar,
      who was also famous for icons.

      I'm so tired of what I've been doing.

      Then one image without form came,
      and i quit.

      Look for someone else to tend the shop.
      I'm out of the image-making business.

      Finally I know the freedom
      of madness.

      A random image arrives. I scream,
      "Get out!" It disintegrates.

      Only love.
      Only the holder the flag fits into,
      and wind. No flag. "

      aleks: and all of that white linen flying just past my window shall signify
      to all--
      she's doing her laundry today.

      sister aleks.



      Now I am curious. How do you guys live in the moment

      When driving, keeping the eyes on the road in order
      not to harm lizards, pets and the occasional goat, no matter what a
      passenger is saying.


      The content of perception is perception.
      This statement brings a picture to my mind,
      A collision between matter and anti-matter...
      And thus, the content of awareness is clean,
      bare of the superfluos...The emptiness that is
      death for the me. The orderly aloness -- that
      is the lonliness for the me.


      perhaps a thought ....

      "I don't mind ...
      and it doesn't matter ...."


      From: Xan

      Papaji said, "The ego is the idea that I am the doer."

      As simple as that. It's the biggest possible joke, that this little spec of
      an I existing in the vastness of unlimited consciousness thinks of itself as
      the source of anything at all. In the cloud of thought where we hide from
      ourselves we specs appear to be all that exists. One inviting shove from
      Grace into infinity, however, and I feel I will never stop laughing. What an
      idiot I have been!

      How much we struggle and strive to make sense of the totally insensible, and
      how pathetic our attempts. The fantasy that I am the creative force in my
      small identity gives me a sense of responsibility, a drive to figure things
      out, a belief that there must be rights and wrongs.

      No wonder effort has become so popular. Look at how much effort it takes to
      pretend to be what you are not and to spend every waking moment maintaining
      that illusion!

      "Go back before the beginning." What is there?

      Who cares whether there is an "I" thought or not? As I am revealed as that
      which is doing me all concerns fall away.


      Gill offered:

      Love is the flame which when it blazes,
      consumes everything other than the Beloved.
      The lover wields the sword of nothingness
      in order to dispatch all but God:
      consider what remains after nothing.
      There remains but God: all the rest is gone.
      Praise to you, O mighty Love, destroyer of all other "gods."

      Rumi, from: 'Mathnawi' V, 588-590
      Translated by Camille and Kabir Helminski

      From: Bill

      Awakening for Beginners, and experts, too.

      do at least 200 times a day
      1. Stop talking
      2. Stop thought
      3. Look around
      4. goto 1

      oh sure, i could give you my url and charge you $19.95 for my book, or,
      oh sure, you could elaborate/argue with me on each and every point until
      you were blue/pink in the face, as you're wont to do, but, that would
      change nothing.

      awakening is bred in the bone, is genetic.
      and as your hormonal system evolves, your mind will follow - thank god.

      Thank You,

      *The voice you hear is your own.
      Yjr eptfd upi trsf str ,omr/

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