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Highlights of Monday 28 Aug.

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  • andrew macnab
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    Message 1 of 1 , Aug 29, 2000
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      Greg Goode's newest compilation: Buddhist Numbered Lists, is
      now online.

      http://www.nonduality.com/goode4.htm

      Please note that this page takes about thirty seconds to
      load with a DSL connection. Eventually it will be
      re-formatted for faster loading.

      Thank you.

      Jerry Katz

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      From: Gregory Goode <goode@...>
      Subject: Re: Re: Royal/Hinduism/Buddhism/Yoga

      Hi Royal,

      Sorry it took so long to get back to you on this! You say -

      Perhaps I could ask you to expound further on point 3 -- "Hinduism
      and Buddhism both have instantaneous and long progressive paths"? In
      my study of yoga, I was taught that the soul comes from the Supreme
      Consciousness/Infinite/Divine, is purified through countless
      incarnations (the grand illusion) through the physical/astral cycle
      to the astral/causal cycle and finally achieves blissful reunion with
      the Infinite -- That Which Is. How does this relate to the Absolute
      Self of Hinduism and the No Self of Buddhism?

      Tiny partial listing of instantaneous and progressive paths:
      Buddhism
      - Instantaneous (Ch'an, Zen, Pure Land,
      Japanese Jodo Shinshu)
      - Progressive (Vipassana, Theravada,
      tantric and many other Mahayana forms)
      Hinduism
      - Instantaneous (advaita from Gaudapada
      (MANDUKYA UPANISHAD), advaita from
      Krishna Menon (ATMA DARSHAN), various
      forms of Western advaita
      - Progressive (Orthodox hinduism, orthodox
      Advaita Vedanta from some schools in the
      U.S. such as the Chinmaya Mission and the
      Arsha Vidya Gurukulam; qualified non-dualism
      as in the Ramakrishna Mission (many U.S. branches),
      devotional paths (ISKON, Guru Mayi, Ammachi),
      and also many westernized advaita paths.

      In general, the "instantaneous" is more instantaneous when there has been
      some preparation in the progressive paths.... :-)

      You also ask a very good question - what about different teachings
      vis-a-vis consciousness? Such as that we progress through a reunion with
      consciousness, or a merging with consciousness, or taking one's stand now
      already as consciousness, or a no-self teaching, or seeing all things and
      people as not having a self.... There is no kind of teaching that is right
      for everyone or wrong for everyone. The best criterion of a good fit is --
      what speaks to your heart?

      And a teacher! The real teacher is your innermost Self or true essence,
      whether there is a human being occupying that role helping out or not. The
      human teacher can come in many forms - books, friends, e-mail, etc. "Do I
      need a living human teacher?" The question is its own answer. The more
      strongly you feel the force of the question, the more you will seek - and
      find - a human teacher!!

      Love,

      --Greg

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Hi Gregji,
      I notice that time and duality
      are issues that emerge
      in this discussion
      about teachings and no-teachings,
      instantaneous and gradual paths.

      Any teaching, be it the teaching
      of no-teaching, or the teaching
      of a specific path, involves a duality:
      the duality of Awareness and the
      teaching (or no-teaching) with which
      awareness is confronted.

      Any description of truth, whether it
      be "instantaneous" or "gradual"
      involves time: the time it takes
      for the description to register
      and be understood, or to register
      and be understood as not understandable.

      The upshot is this: the concept "timelessness"
      is not timelessness. Time is involved in
      hearing the word, and infering a meaning (or
      no-meaning).

      The path of no-path is not the path of no-path:
      a duality is involved in whatever meaning
      or non-meaning is associated with the concept
      of a pathless path.

      The dilemma is involved once there is communication
      of any kind. Communication takes time and
      involves duality. Noncommunication doesn't help
      either, as by noncommunicating there is the implied
      or overt separation of states
      (the one who doesn't communicate and the one who
      expresses perceived lack of awareness or a sense
      of suffering).

      Thus, It isn't a path nor is It a non-path.
      It doesn't have a means for approach, nor
      does it lack a means for approach.
      It doesn't confer meaning, nor is it
      meaningless.

      Its timelessness isn't timelessness.

      Its boundless clarity can't be communicated,
      nor can it be noncommunicated.

      Namaste,
      Dan

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


      Hi Dan-ji,

      The Zen analogue to what you're saying here is, "When you have the tip of
      the hair on the tail, you've got the entire lion." The distinctions
      between the paths (like the paths) are neither time-bound nor timeless,
      neither instantaneous nor time-consuming. Like everything else, it is
      neither anything nor nothing, neither X nor -X. And for this very reason
      that it is said that we eat and sleep, and that some paths are
      instantaneous and some are gradual!

      Your poetry here, if considered carefully or apprehended in a flash!, is a
      good antidote to the desire to have nonduality appear *as nondual*. How
      can we expect that That which is the sum and substance of everything, to
      look like anything in particular and *not* like something else?

      Love,

      --Greg

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Hi Greg-ji,

      Yes.

      The true teaching *is*.

      Because it *is*, it
      can't be found anywhere.

      Love,
      Dan

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


      Hi Dan - ji,

      No.

      The true

      teaching is *not*

      Because it is *not*

      it can be found everywhere

      Aroha

      Pou

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Hi Pou-ji,

      By saying
      it is *not*,
      you affirm
      that it *is*.

      See, you have found it
      everywhere!

      But what have you found?

      If you have found anything,
      you've lost it again.

      Namaste,
      Dan

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Dearest Dan -ji

      By saying it *is*

      you affirm it is *not*

      See it is *nowhere* to be found

      But what is it you have lost?

      If you have lost anything

      you will find it again

      Hari Om Tat Sat

      Pou
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Dearest Pou-ji,

      I've lost my mind,
      and it will
      never be found
      even once!

      Namaste,
      Dan
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


      Kia Ora Dan -ji

      Nga mihi nui ki a koe ara me to whanau hoki

      (greetings to you and also your family)

      Arohanui

      (much love)

      Kia kaha

      (stay strong)

      Pou

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Hey guys,

      Is?, is not? - I'll split the difference with you:

      Anything, teaching or a cup of tea,
      neither is nor is not.
      This is why learning and tea-drinking happens...

      Saludos,

      --Greg

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


      Hi Greg-ji,
      I'll have my tea with
      a slice of Nagarjuna's lemon,
      please.

      I'll be the one leaning on the bar,
      without a leg to stand
      on.

      When I say the truth *is*,
      that's my cup of tea.
      My tea is quite plain, and
      neither 'is' nor 'isn't'
      changes its flavor.

      If you try to take my cup away from
      me, you'll see it never leaves
      my hands.

      You can have all you want. Spill it
      and you'll never get wet.

      One sip at a time,
      Dan

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      From: raaaa1234@...
      Subject: FWD; OSHO...(CON'T)

      Imagine what it would be like if we are PAID to have FUN in life.(Instead of being
      paid for "working.") And imagine what if would belike if the more fun we have, the
      more we get paid. How would wechange our lives, today, right
      now?
      Even more radically, imagine what it would be like if we were told that if we didn't
      have a high level of fun at every moment, we would be brutally killed. How would
      ourbattitude toward death
      change?

      Hope these words are useful to some.

      love,

      sky
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      From: Judi Rhodes <jarhodes@...>
      Subject: Re: El Threado Grande/Beleif?

      'Nga Ko re ro' wrote:
      >
      > Otherwise it would simply scare the
      > students away. It's a bit like going into a field and waving photographs
      > around of a slaughter house to the animals that you're trying to round up to
      > put in the transport vehicle to take them to the slaughter house. Do you
      > get my drift?
      >
      *********
      The ones that are wearied and tired of life, *IF* they can catch a clue,
      will say to themselves "AHA, the slaughter house! That's the one place
      I haven't looked!" :-)

      **********
      And that's where true self-inquiry begins. And a person will immediately
      see that what they have been doing with their life,(what their life has
      been
      about), is just jerking themselves off.

      ************
      The 'world dream' as Gene calls it, is nothing more than a huge cirle
      jerk. :-)

      **********
      And you guys wonder why the Buddha laughs??? :-)


      --
      Happy Days,
      Judi

      http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/judi-1.htm

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Yeah, but this jerk adds, this circle jerk of ours ("this thing of ours," as the mafia
      says) is also more than just mutual masterbation. I mean,you know how much it takes
      to get another to "do it" for you, and "do it right"! And vice
      versa!
      And when we do it right: GOD, BABY, GOD, GOD, GOD!!!!! We are not humanity, we are
      OH, GOD, GOD, BABY!!!! (Definition of
      Advaita.)
      love hand

      sky

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      ********
      The 'let's get hysterical jerk'.


      --
      Happy Days,
      Judi
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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      Oh, please tell me where the slaughterhouse is. There, I've asked.

      Love, Mark

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      ********
      Well your heart break of course. Where did you think?

      *******
      This is all about heart Mark. How could as something as Magnificent as
      God be about anything else? You wouldn't have it any other way would
      you? It couldn't be.

      There is a secret medicine
      Given only to those
      who hurt so hard
      they can't hope.
      The hopers would feel slighted
      if they knew.

      Judi

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      This way.... this way..... this way to the slaughter house of love

      Mark you should be working for Saatchi & Saatchi groover

      Pou

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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      Laughing Buddha..

      And that's why Buddha laughed because he realized he was God dreaming he was
      Buddha. You know 'John Smith' the actor who plays the part of King Lear in
      the Shakespearian play here in London, never ever forgets that he is John
      Smith. Should he ever forget momentarily, he only has to look on his pay
      cheque and he will see written there 'John Smith'. Having said that, we who
      go to watch the play get very excited when John Smith loses himself in the
      identity of King Lear in the same way that Buddha laughs, so do those who
      awaken from the dream from believing they were 'me'.

      I guess it's like, and not for a moment here do I forget that I am writing
      to the enlightened NDS club, which are all the different parts of me. John
      Smith becoming so identified with the part of King Lear and losing his
      reference points to re-identifying as John Smith and needing to go to a
      psychiatrist to be reminded that really you're John Smith and that you have
      three sons: Simon, Peter, and Paul. It's such a relief for John Smith to
      remember who he is really so that he can get on with his day to day living
      and play his various roles in the theatre company.

      I guess that's why Buddha laughs.

      Love Pou

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


      ****** Ya guess? :-)

      As the story goes, as Ramana lay on his death bed, his devotees wailed,
      "don't leave us", to which he responded, "where would I go?"
      His devotees outside his door started singing his favorite song
      and tears ran down his cheeks and he died.


      --
      Happy Days,
      Judi

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      I like the stories about sages who laugh, not only in the face of death, but over the
      din of slander. I think it's easy to die among friends, but the sage who, while being
      roasted alive, quips, "I think this side is done now" gains most of my admiration.
      The otherwise obscure sage who, before being publically hanged, said, this is good,
      at least now I'm getting some of the attention I deserve.
      Christ's grace under fire seems cool. But we never hear about the guy or gal who
      laughed in the face of unanimous slander. How could we, no one witnessed it who has
      anything but slander to offer about that person?
      Sometimes "villains" are portrayed as having died laughing, but with demonic glee,
      rather than enlightened laughter.
      What if we were to see them as actually enlightened?
      What if we were to stop slandering completely, and see everyone as enlightened
      Buddhas?

      love,
      sky

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


      *********
      There is no one else. There is no one at all.


      --
      Happy Days,
      Judi

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      There is no there. There is only here.
      Here is neither here nor there. Only now, eternal now.
      "Cliche!" mon amie. ;^) ;^)

      love,

      sky
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


      **********
      Keep talking to yourself and you'll finally get it.
      That is, if you want to?

      --
      Happy Days,
      Judi
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Is that the Judi I was warned about?
      Cliches won't cut it with me. Tell me something about yourself and the competition
      will dissolve. Keep up with the "I have it and you don't" reparte, and I'll just get
      bored.
      (If I don't respond, it's because I'm bored.)
      sky

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      > Mark wrote:
      >
      > It seems to me that the ego wishes for immortality and
      > elevation, and I hear people who I respect saying that
      > there is immortality and not so much elevation - but
      > being high (such a dirty word...) - available, but that
      > the egoic drive for survival obscures it. I hear it said
      > that it is already there, always has been, always will be
      > but the idea that it is not, and the panic that such an
      > idea creates causes all of our suffering.
      >
      >

      The most complicated thing to explain, to someone who hasn't
      been there, is the sense of complete impossibility of "all this".

      There are a thousand and one explainations for how the mind works,
      the parts of the brain that cause one sensation or another, mysterious
      combinations of memory and sensory feelings, for to create sensory
      memories that combine to form emotions etc, etc.

      A sensation arises in the brain of "my being". As concocted and
      distorted as it may be, an esscence arises, where there should be
      absolutely nothing. Where does this esscence "actually come from?"
      and where is it "actually going".

      I know about myself! So all the scientists, and all of the philosophers
      can try, it's their nature, to explain this! They use self defined rules,
      supposedly "impartial". Well, it doesn't matter. All of the rules
      are based on observation and emulation, definitions of consistencies.
      The rules emulate the nature of what we see, using logical models.

      What they do is explain how all these things manifest, within the
      known physical infrastructure, but what none of them do is explain
      how the fuck can the physical infrastructure be!

      Like I think I've said before, my sense of being is floating around
      in a cloud of electrons and protons (muons, pions if you will). Is
      it those protons which have my escence, or are we missing something?
      Are we just inventing too many "object" to qualify the image.

      It's perhaps not so strange that the answer revolves around questions
      of ego and mortality. It's like, there IS or there ISN'T. That's how
      it seems. I wasn't the least bit concerned about the period before
      my birth! Somewhere along the line there, I came to be. Somewhere
      along the line it appears I will cease to be. So I came to be,
      and that had to be explained. I don't know why, that's the nature
      of THIS.

      Now, there are probably as many explainations as to what is going to
      happen after, as there is for what THIS is. Interesting!


      Before I came to be, were there explainations as to what it would be
      like.. to be? Not that I'm aware of. It seems I wasn't aware of anything
      before I came here. Was there something then before that? From here it
      seems so. The Earth and mankind has been around for 10s of 1000's of years.
      Before I came to be then, what portion of my time would that 10,000
      years represent? Somehow that doesn't compute! It's like "I" wasn't.
      Did "I" care?

      What seems possible, is that there was being, but it just wan't
      recognizable.
      It's not a physical state. There's a strong sense, and the scientists
      are learning to prove it, that time only exists here. It seems that while
      we are here we are living a possible explaination for what THIS is.

      Light of somethingness, giving dimension to PURE BEING, which is what
      it has always been.

      PURE BEING, how could we know what it is without THIS?

      Don't worry about what comes after, THIS is your explaination.

      Love Dave

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      Marcia Paul wrote:
      >
      > The decision is
      > not in our hands. "Thy Will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven."
      >
      ********
      Don't be ridiculous, if the garbage stinks, you take it out.

      There is a funny story of Da and his first teacher, Rudi, who owned
      an art store in New York. And every day Rudi would give Da the job
      of taking out the garbage, which Da did not appreciate too much, because
      after all, he was there to learn of great spiritual matters. :-)
      Until finally one day, "duh", many years later actually,
      he realized what Rudi was getting at and that Da, himself, *WAS* the
      garbage!! :-)


      --
      Happy Days,
      Judi

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Pou:

      Yeah far out man..

      disciples.. students go throught the process of labelling the garbage till
      they realise fuck it.. it's garbage.. the whole lot...why am I sifting
      through it looking for truth.. why not simply throw it out! Bingo....
      garbage out master out..disciple out..Buddha out..'me' out What remains?..
      ..............throw the garbage out and see...

      Judi:

      *********
      They don't realize that their whole reason for living is nothing but
      garbage. They righteously argue and defend it by calling it 'love', 'God'.
      But the thing is they're not going to look at it, unless something like
      the Queen Mary actually crashes thru their living room wall. For most
      seekers it's just all armchair hobby, and they will probably die
      just like that fellow I posted about, meditating with their books in
      their lap and the pictures of their revered teachers above the mantel, in silent
      anguish.

      Thank you God for having the Queen Mary crash thru my living room.

      ********
      And let's not forget these other ones, the 'hystericals', dancing up and
      down the streets throwing fairy dust, saying 'fun, fun, fun'. Have you
      ever seen a more sadly pathetic sight?


      --
      Happy Days,
      Judi
      ______________________________________________________________________________________

      'Nga Ko re ro' wrote:

      > Marcia, I accept that you believe what you believe. But I do not believe in
      > the concept 'thy will be done'.
      >
      > What I do believe is 'thy will is being done'.

      Hi :-)

      I don't see the difference. Heaven is a state of consciousness
      which is now.

      But anyway......I have a question. I have been pondering
      what it means to not let the left hand know what the right
      hand is doing. In this context, I see the left hand as day to
      day ordinary consciousness and the right hand the silence
      you address in your post; The I Am. How I experience
      it is this left hand (personality, the machine as John Duff
      puts it) just runs and if pointed in the right direction, it
      does a pretty good job. "Hello, how are you? Do you want
      butter on your toast or just jam?" It just gets into trouble
      when it tries to take over. Good servant but terrible master.
      But you can't let it know that it isn't the master. That is where
      the trouble starts. The real master, the left hand, is silent.
      But then what is the right hand doing? Does it work for the
      Good? This is where I believe there is more to this game
      than the mere recognition that who I Am is not the left hand.
      Does this make sense? Speak to me. :-)

      Marcia



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      It is not necessary to meet your guru on the
      physical plane. The guru is not external.

      - Neem Karoli Baba
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