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Highlights of Monday August 21st.

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  • andrew macnab
    They laughed when I sat down to play the piano. (And they had every right to!) And they ll laugh again at this new idea. But maybe not for long. Check it out
    Message 1 of 1 , Aug 22, 2000
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      They laughed when I sat down to play the piano. (And they
      had every right to!) And they'll laugh again at this new
      idea. But maybe not for long. Check it out at
      http://www.nonduality.com/rv.htm

      Thanks,
      Jerry


      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      ...I've been seeing
      lately that it's good to embrace fear. Pure Life force is in
      fear. Through embracing fear, one comes to Pure Life Force.
      I think nervous laughter, a very partial embrace, if taken
      one step further, brings one in contact with Pure Life
      Force. That's what I've noticed in myself.

      Jerry

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      >>>Dave Oshana:

      Can Enlightenment be Deepened or Lost?

      There is a lot of talk about gaining and losing enlightenment. Andrew
      Cohen says his students do. Apparently, Ramesh Balsekar says one goes
      in and out and finally stays there. A number of Papaji followers talk
      about `deepening'.

      >From my perspective, enlightenment cannot deepen. It cannot do
      "anything" and nothing can be done to IT.

      I am infinite and eternal. "IT" cannot get any deeper than
      this. I hear that Ramesh has called these temporary experiences of
      enlightenment: "free samples". I don't know if he is
      suggesting that these "free samples" are in fact the real
      thing
      i.e."enlightenment" or just copies.

      "Free samples" are limited products. The infinity and
      eternity of enlightenment could not be squashed into a free sample
      sachet.

      There is no coming and going either. Does anyone come back from the
      dead? Could they? Why would they?

      Following the same reasoning (briefly): once the ego has been
      `killed' then what is left? If the ego comes back then it was
      never dead. My understanding of `ego' is simply
      identification with
      this human life which is called David.

      There is no half way here, but only two mutual opposites, either one
      is identified with this human life or one is not.

      I have tested this "enlightenment" (which I noticed exactly 2
      months
      ago after having called off the search and returning home). I
      sought to test this "enlightenment" in order to discover if
      it was just a passing physiological state. This enlightenment has
      been
      unshakeable, nothing has moved it. There is no coming and going.

      Dave Oshana
      daveoshana
      @...
      www.egroups.com/group/oshana

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      >>>Greg Goode:

      Hey Dave,

      Welcome!!! I don't know if I've seen your posts here before. If so, pls
      pardon my not welcoming you earlier.

      You ask (rhetorically I think) about enlightenment coming and going.
      Depends on one's definition of enlightenment. Ask 100 people, get 200+
      answers. Non-identification with ego or human life *is* called
      enlightenment in some definitions. And in other definitions, it is a stage
      along the way towards total interpenetration, or universal emptiness, or
      total omniscience, or total consciousness or light, or freedom from any
      subject/object dualism, the falling away and the neither
      existence/non-existence of all phenomenal whatsoever. Other defitions of
      enlightenment call it the end of concerns about enlightenment..... Does it
      make sense to believe that a concept of "E" is *accurate*?? Instead, such
      concepts are given to be inspirational and helpful.

      I'm glad you noticed something that in 2 months has not come or gone, or
      shaken or changed! So why wonder about the E-word?

      Love,

      --Greg

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      >>>Dan Berkow:

      (a bow to Dave and Greg)

      How will be described
      that which cannot be described?
      To do so involves either contradiction
      or paradox (depending on
      whether one lives beyond
      one's concepts).

      I have no qualities; can I
      "deepen" my nonexistent qualities
      or "lose" who I am?

      Yet, as human being, I express.
      I describe, I "language"
      experience.
      This is joyful sharing and
      movement of energy.
      So, why not express "deepening"?

      Here is the paradox:
      "what has no qualities,
      being infinite, infinitely
      'deepens', without moving
      and without change."

      That is, It is not static,
      It is life beyond life,
      life in which there is no
      non-life, life that has
      no separation between
      life-death.

      It moves always into itself
      as itself, without moving
      anywhere.

      Its infinity is simultaneous
      total movement and stillness.

      How can this unqualified
      inexpressibility be
      classified as "deepening"
      or "nondeepening"?

      Is it changelessness or infinite
      movement?
      Is it unmoveable or all movement?

      Beyond movement or stillness,
      beyond change or changelessness,
      beyond being or nonbeing,
      AM!

      AM - OM - HHHHHH..OMMMMM

      To know it is to unknow it.

      To *be* is not "to be".

      -- namaste --

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      >>>Royal:

      Greetings Dave,

      It is my understanding that enlightenment is a process by way of
      which the soul may achieve Nirvana. On the path, it is possible to
      regress, until the soul becomes one with Divine Consciousness, at
      which point there is no going back. I found a definition in a
      glossary of Buddhist terms and provide it for your contemplation.

      'Awakening vs. Enlightenment
      A clear distinction should be made between awakening to the Way
      (Great Awakening) and attaining the Way (attaining Enlightenment).
      (Note: There are many degrees of Awakening and Enlightenment.
      Attaining the Enlightenment of the Arhats, Pratyeka Buddhas,
      Bodhisattvas, etc. is different from attaining Supreme Enlightenment,
      i.e., Buddhahood.)
      To experience a Great Awakening is to achieve (through Zen
      meditation, Buddha Recitation, etc.) a complete and deep realization
      of what it means to be a Buddha and how to reach Buddhahood. It is to
      see one's Nature, comprehend the True Nature of things, the Truth.
      However, only after becoming a Buddha can one be said to have truly
      attained Supreme Enlightenment (attained the Way). A metaphor
      appearing in the sutras is that of a glass of water containing
      sediments. As long as the glass is undisturbed, the sediments remain
      at the bottom and the water is clear. However, as soon as the glass
      is shaken, the water becomes turbid. Likewise, when a practitioner
      experiences a Great Awakening (awakens to the Way), his afflictions
      (greed, anger and delusion) are temporarily suppressed but not yet
      eliminated. To achieve Supreme Enlightenment (i.e., to be rid of all
      afflictions, to discard all sediments) is the ultimate goal. Only
      then can he completely trust his mind and actions. Before then, he
      should adhere to the precepts, keep a close watch on his mind and
      thoughts, like a cat stalking a mouse, ready to pounce on evil
      thoughts as soon as they arise. To do otherwise is to court certain
      failure, as stories upon stories of errant monks, roshis and gurus
      demonstrate.'

      <http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhism/glossary.html#A>http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhism/glossary.html#A


      Loving thoughts from a fellow soul on the path,
      Royal

      >Dave:
      >(snip)
      >This all points to
      >where none of this is.

      Dan:
      Yes, it points nowhere
      and everywhere.
      Nowhen and now.

      (a bow and namaste)

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      >>>Mark Otter:


      Hi Gang,

      What's all this fuss about boats? You know I have a canoe. Hmmm... so
      Mary, are you suggesting that I drop my attachment to the Hinayana
      Buddhist perspective of a solitary (and exclusive) path and join the
      community (the greater vessel) of Mahayana practice? Yes, perhaps you
      are right. This seemed to be the focus of my 2 weeks in New Mexico (a
      beautiful land by the way). I realized that my shamanic journey is to
      cross the bridge from solitary existence into community. I am impressed
      by your precognition of this in your message to Harshasatsang, although
      why did you post there rather than NDS? (so sloppy... oh well, I
      forgive you.)

      Now about that million dollars...


      Love, Mark
      geez, the guy is still enthralled by himself. what an ego!

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      >>>Michael Read:


      I went to the Oregon Coast this weekend with some friends. While
      there I found a delightful little book titled
      _Don't Whiz on a 'Lectric Fence_

      Here are some quotes:

      "Every path has some puddles."

      "Don't stand behind a coughing cow."

      "Man is the only critter who feels the need
      to label things as flowers or weeds."

      "Forgive your enemies. It messes with thier heads."

      "Words that soak into your head are whispered, not yelled."

      HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

      Peace - Michael

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      >>>Mark Otter:

      Hi Friends,

      I enjoyed Xan's report on the Gangaji silent retreat, so I thought I
      would try to share with you some of the insights I gleaned from two
      weeks of training to be a holotropic breathwork facilitator. Whew!
      That's hard work!!! And these are courageous people. I felt much as I
      did at the Diamond Hill retreat, surrounded by honesty and beauty. For
      those who don't know, holotropic breathwork is a fairly intense
      breathing practice, wherein one breaths deeply and rapidly for about 3
      hours while listening to loud evocative music. The work is done with a
      partner, who witnesses, and some facilitators who provided body work as
      required and who create a safe container for the process. We each
      breathed (and sat) 4 times during the two weeks, listened to lectures on
      the practice, and during the second week experienced a number of rituals
      (eg the creation of a sacred outdoors altar, and a moon drumming
      ceremony) related to shamanism.

      I arrived full of puppylike enthusiasm, and left somewhat sobered, but
      more deeply committed to the work. I was directly and deeply challenged
      by my own playing of the victim game, and I am more than ever committed
      to dismantling it. I also was struck by the beauty and wisdom of our
      Indian visitor David from Chile. He is a native Chilean (sorry I didn't
      catch the name of his tribe) from the mountanous north of Chile. He's
      soft spoken and very deep and compassionate. He taught us several of
      his peoples' dances and took us outdoors to express our gratitude to
      Mother Earth. This was a central theme to my experience here, deepening
      my appreciation for the planet and learning of my need to be here, to be
      part of this grand thing called life on Earth. I learned that the
      Lakota's speak not of 6 directions, but 7, the seventh being the
      center. I was having a good deal of difficulty being grounded and
      present during a talk by a Lakota elder, and a lovely woman in the
      training, who had a spiritual emergency a few years back and who had
      been helped by the Lakota, sat with me and helped me stay in my body.
      It is clear that I have been tryinng to flee my body and my
      Earth-existence for years. I acknowledge that I made a contract to be
      here and to serve the human race by my presence and so here I am. I am
      grateful to Gienee for gently bringing me back into my body. My
      breathworks involved a good deal of tonglen for the other breathers in
      the room, and I was given a lesson in the difference between doing
      tonglen and being tonglen during my first breathwork. It was so
      wonderful when the trying fell away and was replaced by being. I also
      had fun being the archetype of death and then seeing the joy of the game
      of living and dying and living and dying that we are so keen to play.
      Finally, I separated my shoulder during the first week and reseparating
      it during the 3rd breathwork enabled me to break through into the
      emotional pain I have around my brother's difficult life path and I was
      able to release a good deal of stored up pain. I feel much lighter
      after my two weeks.

      There was quite a lot else as well, but these seem the most salient
      details for now.

      I'm glad to be back, and I fully support Mary's efforts on my financial
      behalf. Please send cash. Lots of it. I promise boat rides to the most
      supportive.

      LOve, Mark

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      >>>Jerry:

      His name is Aziz. Has anyone ever heard of him? Tons of
      original writings at his website:
      http://www.azizkristof.org/SiteMap.html

      The following is from his website:

      Me in Non-duality

      The essence of the Non-dual perception is the desire of a
      particular Me to identify itself with the Source and the
      Totality of Creation. In awakening to the Oneness, which is
      Enlightenment, Me may wish to negate its very own
      existence. Me wants deeply to dissolve its identity within
      the ocean of Existence. The personal wants to become the
      Impersonal, the Universal.

      So the question arises: can Me really negate its own
      existence? Can it simply disappear in the experience of
      Wholeness? At this point one can see that Truth and Reality
      are subject to the interpretation of the individual Me with
      its unique psychology and desire to position itself in a
      way that suits its intelligence best. But one thing is
      clearly certain: for any proclamation of I am That to take
      place, the individual Me has got to be there to proclaim
      it. How could the Universal be expressed, without the
      existence of the particular? Me is the experiencer of all
      states and cannot cease to be present. When Me dissolves,
      one returns to the Original State, prior to consciousness.

      Me is that which allows us to experience the I AM. The I AM
      which one experiences is not Me it is that which created
      Me. One can never become the Creator. It is true that
      Self-realization is a state of complete Oneness with the
      universal I AM, but Me which experiences this Oneness is
      not this I AM. Me can disidentify with the whole universe,
      but is not able to identify with its Creator. The
      Self-realized Me rests upon the Ultimate Subjectivity and
      experiences it through itself. Me cannot become the
      Ultimate, no matter how deeply it is awakened to the
      dimension of Pure Rest and Wholeness. Why? For the very
      simple reason that Me always, regardless of the State it is
      in, feels itself.

      The philosophy of Non-duality traditionally was designed to
      negate the essential presence of Me in all states and
      levels of experience. The nature of Me, is from a certain
      perspective, much more subtle than all the inner states,
      for it is the Nearest. Me cannot simply disappear in any
      state, for without Me the experience of that very state
      vanishes. What I am is not eternal though it evolves
      eternally within the universal I AM. It is born and it
      dies. It dies, and is reborn into a new Me. Me expands
      infinitely into the vastness of the Universal Intelligence.
      It is the journey of the Spirit into the ultimate
      experience of love, beauty and happiness.

      It is possible to call the Creation an illusion, the
      Creator -- emptiness, and the Soul -- non-existent. This
      would be the shortest way to the impersonal. Seemingly, the
      impersonal is reached by the impersonal and dissolves into
      the impersonal. This is the ideal of Non-duality. But in
      truth, to meet the impersonal face to face, the personal
      must be there to face it. Here, the ultimate duality serves
      its supreme purpose, and Me rests in full acceptance of its
      supreme dual existence and truth.

      Non-duality, without the awakening to Me, represents the
      Wholeness of Perception in which Me refuses to see itself
      as a dynamic and alive center of identity behind the
      Perceived. When Me is awakened to itself for the first
      time, the new and true Non-dual vision of reality is
      apperceived. In this apperception, the Wholeness embraces
      its very experiencer, the unique Soul, the intimate heart
      of Me, as itself. This Me is an indivisible part of the
      Ultimate Seeing. The Non-dual Perception is not the end of
      Seeing. The evolution into the Seeing of Reality does not
      have an end. And this evolution can take place only through
      the Me, the mysterious perceiver of the Universal I AM.
      This Perceiver is not separated from the Wholeness. It is
      this part of the Totality through which the Now becomes the
      Seen.
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