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Wednesday, August 16

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    CHRISTIANA: Hi Thunderbolt.. Quite a post. Here we go with the most people . Who are these most people , Michael? And are you sure? MICHAEL: Yep! I m sure.
    Message 1 of 1 , Aug 18, 2000
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      CHRISTIANA: Hi Thunderbolt..

      Quite a post. Here we go with the "most people". Who are
      these "most people", Michael? And are you sure?

      MICHAEL: Yep! I'm sure. Not judging - just observing. Been
      there - trough that!

      MICHAEL: Most people on NDS are more interested in
      perpetuating their trips than waking up! Sheesh! They want
      their expectations met. They call mind tripping inquiry and
      congratulate themselves on their wonderful perceptions.

      CHRISTIANA: As someone who likely flickers in and out of
      your "most people" category, I'll say.. talk to me. Maybe,
      turn down the thunder.

      MICHAEL: Nope! Lightning bolts for one and all! Again -
      just observing.

      MICHAEL: When someone says that all is an illusion - even k
      work - chakras - levels of awareness and all that
      'spiritual' claptrap is just garbage illusion, boy, do they
      get upset. But, that's what they prefer - validation of
      thier illusion(s). Fine, let them validate the bejesus out
      of each other. Just don't make me watch. ;-)

      CHRISTIANA: Yet you are watching, from what appears as an
      assumed counterpoint

      MICHAEL: No counter to point. If you had any idea what I'm
      talking about, OOOOOOH!

      CHRISTIANA: to "most people". Can you offer an integrated
      view? If all is consciousness, how is this not? Todays
      garbage might be tomorrow's compost.

      MICHAEL: All is conciousness. Never know what IT is up to!

      MICHAEL: Well, who gives a shit! Fuck'em, let em suffer.
      Maybe, someday, they will get tired of it and just break
      down and cry. Maybe not. It is after all the great game.
      Who knows how it will end. A comet strike perhaps. Or,
      total crustal displacement - that's always good.

      People! Sheesh!

      CHRISTIANA: It sounds like your attempt to not care comes
      from caring, filtered through frustration. From whence the
      frustration?

      MICHAEL: Hardly frustrated. Joyous! Been frustrated -
      didn't work!

      CHRISTIANA: thunderbolt struck the garbage pile.

      MICHAEL: Well then, let some flowers bloom!

      Dear Christiana, as you know, many who post on this list
      and others like it have followed or favor some sage or
      tradition. What do those sages always say? Be still, this
      is beyond intellect, this is the peace that passes all
      understanding. True? Yes.

      Also, they invite us to join them! Yet, the price is high.
      Everything a person believes in must/will be lost! How many
      are willing to pay that price? One in a million, maybe not
      even that many.

      Why is it, or better yet, why does it appear to work that
      way? For meaning or to give the appearance of meaning to
      life. It's a passion play. At the base of things life has
      no meaning. At least not in the way that many would prefer.
      By clinging to our preconcieved notions the meaning
      continually slips by us.

      So, if a thunderbolt gets thrown once and awhile, you can
      duck and run for cover. Or, you can stand and take it full
      in the chest!

      Because IT has happened to/for me I can report that Jesus
      was bang on when he said that you have to die and be reborn
      before you can enter the kingdom of heaven.

      Want to know where heaven is? Right here! Duck!

      A hundred little duckies swimming on the pond. Lighting
      struck one and that one saw the Universe and the Light.
      Tried to tell the other little duckies. They didn't quaking
      know what the one was talking about. Poor little duckies
      killed the one and went on quacking! Didn't they know it
      wasn't his choice?

      HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

      Peace - Michael

      ________________________________________________________________________

      MICHAEL READ: Well, who gives a shit! Fuck'em, let em
      suffer. Maybe, someday, they will get tired of it and just
      break down and cry. Maybe not. It is after all the great
      game. Who knows how it will end. A comet strike perhaps.
      Or, total crustal displacement - that's always good.

      JOHN METZGER: Who knows how it will end...Surely one sign
      of the end is when we wonder if Krishnamurti usurped the
      rights to his freedom in combing his hair in a certain
      direction. "Freedom From The Known" suggests he was free
      from conventional, even incongruous, hair-dos and
      don'ts??.. "Who gives a shit" and when Krishnamurti shit I
      wonder which hand he wiped with? REPENT:THE END IS NEAR.
      Apologies, Michael, but one last quote.."Sheesh."

      GILL EARDLEY: Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning,
      then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end
      will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one
      who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and
      will not taste death." - Gospel of Thomas

      Actually, I have little to ponder than such trivialities.
      There comes a time when it is all just so funny that there
      is nothing to do but laugh. :-)

      JUDI RHODES: "Well who gives a shit... ." Ain't that the
      truth! Forgive them, they know not what they do! Love is
      the answer, love is the way. I am here. Simply here.
      Tearfully here. And that's the way it is folks. No one is
      ever gonna tell you anything better. Because there's
      nothing to say. That's why I talk so much! :-)

      GLORIA LEE: Here is Francis Lucille's take on "dying."

      Q: Someone mentioned feeling alarmed when she got to a
      certain point and other people have described being
      terrified at the point where they were just ready to open
      up to this awareness. What causes these overwhelming
      reactions?

      FL: In these circumstances you have the opportunity to see
      what you are not, the ego. The ego is not a single thought,
      it is a recurrent thought pattern which, like frozen
      yogurt, comes in various flavors such as "I am a mother,"
      "I am my body" and so on. But it is also made out of
      feelings, such as fear, boredom, dissatisfaction, sense of
      lack, etc. When you feel boredom, you touch the tip of the
      iceberg. If you welcome this feeling, you move into deeper
      waters as it becomes fear and even panic. Remain in
      welcoming. It is a test of the intensity of the desire for
      truth. At some point the desire for the truth becomes so
      intense that you are willing to die for it. When there is a
      readiness to give up everything, the fear will
      instantaneously disappear and the eternal consciousness
      will reveal itself in all its glory. That will be the end
      of the ego and of the problems that are associated with it

      GENE POOLE: "It is after all the great game. Who knows how
      it will end. A comet strike perhaps. Or, total crustal
      displacement - that's always good."

      According to the late Terrance Makenna, it will 'end' on
      December 27, 2012. On this date, time will have caught up
      with itself; all 'individual consciousnesses' will have
      finished their contributions to the whole, the result being
      a great flash of total unity, as the sower reaps what has
      grown over time.

      In this model, the entire universe 'will be' a self-aware
      entity, all questions having been asked. And there will be
      'no' subjective comparisons available, unless there is
      'another' Self-Aware Universe-Entity with which to commune
      and compare notes on "how it is".

      I am excited to find out; is there another self-aware
      entity?

      If we look at this, what you state/bemoan in your
      posting... perhaps the behaviour of humans is not so hard
      to understand, after all. Perhaps humans are (blindly,
      instinctively, naturally?) following the Master Imperative
      of the Community of Universes, which simply put, is to look
      around and try to find another self-aware entity. This
      would 'explain' our endless search for the 'Guru', and our
      painfully precise criteria for determining just exactly
      what it is that determines and reveals self-awareness.

      Postmodern physics and philosophy allow for a multitude of
      'dimensions'; perhaps, each dimension is the domain of a
      Universe, growing into self-awareness via what we
      experience as our lives as individuals. Perhaps, as each
      Universe matures into full awareness, that the ability to
      consciously co-exist 'trans-dimensionally' is the next
      phase. This would be pointed to by the natural evolution of
      humans and how they grow though phases into 'unity
      awareness'.

      Perhaps there are/will be a trans-dimensional community of
      self-aware universes, all of whom will contribute to the
      eventual joining to form a 'Super-Universe', as we now
      contribute to join in a 'Super-Being'. It is this
      Super-Being who is our self-aware Universe, which is
      itself, on the lookout for another self-aware entity.

      Of course, we must remember that it has already happened;
      that is how some of us have seen all the way through and
      have decided to just abide the ride as it happens.

      ________________________________________________________________

      MELODY ANDERSON

      Jacob Boehme:

      "If (Love) but once kindle a Fire within thee, my Son,...
      thou shalt feel it in the burning up thyself, and swiftly
      devouring all Egoity, or that which thou callest I and Me,
      ..."

      Osho:

      Love is painful because it creates the way for bliss. Love
      is painful because it transforms, love is mutation.

      Each transformation is going to be painful because the old
      has to be left for the new. The old is familiar, secure,
      safe, the new is absolutely unknown. You will be moving in
      an uncharted ocean. You cannot use your mind with the new;
      with the old, the mind is skillful. The mind can function
      only with the old; with the new the mind is utterly
      useless.

      _______________________________________________________________________

      GENE POOLE

      You know how blueprints tend to roll back up, if you try to
      spread them out on a table? It is really a nuisance.

      Master architects and contractors use weights to hold the
      blueprints open and flat, for long and careful study. They
      have these devices handy, because they know the nature of
      blueprints.

      In a general way, I could point out that the "blueprint of
      identity" is equally hard to observe; it tends to conceal
      itself, unless held open by the 'weights' of habitual
      self-inquiry.

      Master self-inquirers use the ingrained habit of
      self-inquiry to hold identity open and flat, for long and
      careful study. They have these devices handy, because they
      know the nature of identity.

      ------------------------------------

      MANCHINE

      Until I started to look at myself,I used to think I knew
      what Einstein meant when he said "The more you find out,
      the less you know!".

      What you don't know is nothing(empty space), but it's more
      than you'll ever know. Funny how that works!

      I just love throwing away models, because the next one that
      get's built is even more spectacular, in an almost simpler
      way!

      Now then, some say, "throw away 'model making'" and I think
      that therein lies a very precarious situation! Is the
      building under construction, the one for which the bluprint
      was made, is it finished?

      Will the building need maintenance, which may require the
      blueprint?

      There have been so many times that I've been ready to throw
      out my blueprint, when I feel that what I see before me is
      just so perfect, when 'boom', the staircase just doesn't
      line up with the hallway!

      I've actually gotten to like the imperfections! It's such a
      wonderful mystery.

      ____________________________________________________________________

      MOD TOLLENS

      Strolling along the trail, leaves of the cottonwoods
      flutter. A kingfisher waits for a meal. There is only
      'seeing' and 'that which is'.

      ______________________________________________________________________

      MIGUEL-ANGEL CARRASCO

      VICTOR WROTE: There is a really interesting web site at:
      http://faculty.virginia.edu/consciousness/

      Stanley Sobottka, Emeritus Professor of Physics at the
      University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia has a
      wonderful site where he presents "A Course in
      Consciousness".

      This course consists of three parts: Part One - Quantum
      theory and consciousness, Part Two - The metaphsics of
      nonduality, and Part three - The end of suffering and the
      discovery of our true nature.
      -------------------------------------------------------

      MIGUEL-ANGEL: Yes, I've been reading this course in the
      last few weeks. I'm now in Part 2. So far, it is a study of
      consciousnes from a scientific point of view.

      I find that philosophy-oriented people will be tempted to
      skip Part 1, and even entire sections of Part 2, because
      they are rather technical and require some knowledge of
      quantum physics. But that would be a pity, because there
      are interesting things to be found there.

      For example, here are some conclusions that Stanley
      Sobottka (who is not a materialist) draws :

      "Experiential awareness [i.e. consciousnes of an
      experience] always *follows* stimuli *and decisions*."
      (Part 1, section 9). I find this a revolutionary statement.
      According to him, biochemical studies show that decisions
      are made a bit before the brain becomes aware of them! In
      other words, I come to know my own decisions only some
      nanoseconds after they have been made.

      "Free will as the possibility of alternative action is
      impossible. There can't be any free decision: either it is
      determined or it is random." (Part 1, section 10)

      "Free will implies a duality agent/outside world, and even
      a split within the agent: inner I/outer I. No such duality
      is supported by science." (Part 1, section 11)

      "In fact we cannot even control our thoughts freely." (Part
      1, section 12)

      "True freedom is freedom from an imagined free will." (Part
      1, section 13)

      All these observations are quite in concordance with what
      Nisargadatta and Ramesh Balsekar say: the existence of a
      separate, independent, autonomous individual is an
      illusion, there is no real "me", and it is the functioning
      of Totality which determines whatever happens, including
      our supposedly free choices. Freedom then consists not in
      choosing alternatives, but in becoming free of the
      identification, of the idea that I am "me", and getting to
      realize that it is only the one Consciousness which exists
      and experiences the world in each of us.

      ________________________________________________________________

      CHRISTIANA AND MARCIA

      C: Good evening Marcia..

      M: Good afternoon to you. And a very, very hot one at that.

      C: I have spent portions of my day observing the movement
      of my thoughts as they relate to the various posts you have
      made today.

      I have begun several letters to you.. and find that it is
      so difficult for me to communicate simply.. each letter
      seems endlessly verbose. So.. here I am with another
      attempt... no doubt, equally verbose.

      M:I love this about you.

      C:> My entry point in writing to you last night was your
      comment about the list as squiggly lines, not necessarily
      being ego destructive.

      I have hesitated at times to enter dialogue with others
      here, as so often any attempt to investigate something
      either sounds pedantic or is heard as point to contradict.
      I have also hesitated, as I know that I am not yet myself,
      skilled at inquiry which is not flavored with pedantry and
      contradiction. All that I can do here now is enter the flow
      of observation into the nature of my own mind as it allowed
      your words to be caught in my web for observation.

      For all the affinity I feel with you, I have observed that
      we often *appear* to be on different sides of
      conceptual/perceptual frameworks. I suppose that is the
      nature of duality. So, I am challenging myself to look
      deeper.. to explore what Franklin Merrell-Wolff refers to
      as the third organ of knowledge: introception.

      M: I have that feeling also but many times at the end of my
      'response'to you, I have this recognition that we are
      really saying the same thing or similar things.

      C:> ("When activated, introception provides immediate,
      categorical knowledge that transcends the subject-object
      distinction, i.e., it is not a relational knowledge of
      something by something else, but a knowledge through
      identity in which there is only knowledge itself that
      includes and transcends both knower and known.")

      From the resonance of "relational" affinity I feel with
      you, it is easy to hold space for this inquiry. To meet you
      as myself and to listen for what is beyond. Your various
      posts, as you responded to others, were met within me as a
      series of paradoxes, contradictions and mixing of levels.

      M: I perceive myself as responding from different levels.
      What is consistenton one level is paradoxical on another.
      I, in no way, make any claim to be consistent and non
      contradictory. Sometimes I feel very clear within and am
      merely trying to be as clear in my expression and other
      times I am working on clarification as I write. So your
      perception is correct.

      C: Nbe.. I am not saying that about your words.. but about
      how they echoed within me, and my decision to notice my own
      paradoxical flow.

      I readily could hear my frontal readiness to assume that,
      a) I understood your words and b) that something I could
      say might matter as response.

      So, I used those assumptions to inquire within. I've often
      felt that we could go further on this list by more
      frequently asking *ourselves* or each other questions. My
      thought here is that perhaps the questions might serve the
      other, but equally or more important might be that we could
      inquire into what locus of awareness (or who) is really
      asking/responding. In such a process, both listener and
      speaker might in fact notice the 'hypothetical'.

      So.. I'll explore just one piece which arose to look at (as
      the you in me) and how this inquiry unfolded within me.. (I
      offer this as my piece in the dialogue of how this list, in
      fact, operates to "threaten the ego structure".)

      * focused inquiry point: you stated in your post to
      Michael, a list of conditions for your choices of whom to
      read and not read..

      M: What I was trying to do here was to show that different
      people speakfrom different centers but as long as all they
      do is speak from one center, then they are not necessarily
      relating in dialogue. It was not meant to be a list of
      conditions but just an example. Actually I mostly read
      depending on how I am feeling. But I was not clear. See how
      communication is difficult? My emphasis was on how only one
      aspect is focussed on and what you picked up on was the
      part about, which did sound judgmental, not reading it. On
      that note, I just type and spell check. I rarely read over
      and 'fine tune.' Perhaps I should. Each moment my
      perception changes and if I 'fine tune', I have this
      superstition, perhaps, that what I was 'seeing' in that
      moment will be lost in all the correcting. Make sense?

      C: Instead of asking you, I asked myself, what's that
      about, and where do I do this?

      As a consequence, today I noted (amidst the plethora of the
      daily 6,000 folk who call or arrive before our reference
      desks) my operating movements towards patrons. Some met
      openly, some resisted. And I kept catching myself; then
      asking what were the criteria being activated and why. I
      noticed the aperture around identified antipathy.. noticed
      the beliefs holding that aperture in place.. noticed the
      nature of movement which that belief confabulates.. noticed
      it's facial expression, body rhythm, precedented posture.
      Then I released it, and opened to observe what might be
      unprecendented.. unformed... free.

      I looked up "confabulate" as that word just arose, and see
      these definitions: Confabulate (etymology: to talk story,
      fable) 1. chat 2. hold a discusson, confer 3. to fill in
      gaps in memory by fabrication.

      It occurs that much of what we do in all dialogic
      relationship, with self, other, or what we hold as sacred,
      is some facet of this confabulation based on conception and
      perception. If I understand this correctly, this is all,
      byproduct of the hypothetical.

      I remembered the echo of something learned last Fall with
      Gangaji and Eli.. "the coliseum you are in, is the one
      you've chosen withinwhich to wake up.. and if you are in a
      coliseum, you can be sure that the lions will come.. and
      when they come.. stand real still.. it's a good day to
      die."

      M: The thing that I have come to with 'typing' or ranking
      or categorizingof people, (myself included), is that this
      process itself tends to hold people in these positions that
      I have categorized them into. Especially with intimates. If
      I can allow that my mate, for instance, is not or not just
      anyway, blah, blah, blah then he has freedom to move and we
      can relate in the space between us. Make sense?

      C: So today, I was likely an emptier vessel, provided
      better service and had more fun. For me.. this process..
      though perhaps still within the dance of the hypothetical,
      as there is still a self here reporting.. is a facet of the
      work available here.

      As an aside to other points you made today, I'll add that
      what we do here is no replacement for touch through eyes,
      voice, skin or beingness. Much information and love is
      communicated that way. Yet I also find that much
      information and love is communicated here. I am not
      concerned that my Introvert Intuitive nature is finding
      delusional escape through email lists. My life is filled
      with people. Yet the opportunities available for deep
      communal inquiry are rare. So, I use this list as
      opportunity to meet, and inquire into, the village of you,
      as you all live within me. And it is a rather frequent
      occurance that the point-counterpoint focalized foreground
      poles release to merely a simple point in the open field of
      conscious play.

      Offered not as any contradiction of your position, but as
      another weft thread in a continuing dialogue.

      ----------------

      GREG GOODE:

      Thank you for this beautiful post - the heart, the candor,
      the clarity! I love you and Marcia, glad youse guys are
      here. I like the "coliseum" metaphor. "A good day to die."
      One can see a graphic image of that in the movie
      "Gladiator." The camera follows Russell Crowe and his
      haggard combatants through the entrance tunnel towards the
      grounds of the huge coliseum. Thousands of screaming
      bloodthirsty spectators, vastly overpowering opponents in
      their face as soon as the door opens, the thrill and
      adventure of impending death!

      ________________________________________________________________

      We are the Nonduality Generation.
      http://www.nonduality.com
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