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NDS highlights for Saturday, August 12

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  • Melody
    Happy 2nd Birthday, NDS! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CHRISTIANA: My heart defines compassion as: nothing to do with sorrow or suffering or
    Message 1 of 1 , Aug 13, 2000
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      Happy 2nd Birthday, NDS!

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      CHRISTIANA:

      My heart defines compassion as: nothing to do with sorrow or suffering
      or sympathy. It is a movement of Being, which knows, with no belief,
      that beyond the appearance of flaws and brokenness and masks, we are the
      same. It is an employment of the energetic Eye of sameness, blazing
      through the narrow eye which thinks it sees an appearance of difference.

      It is not a choice.. it just is.


      JERRY:


      Yes. If I've known an instant of compassion, then there is
      nothing but compassion.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      DAVE responds to Osho:

      > "When you are thinking, you are separate from
      > others because you are thinking some thoughts
      > and the other person is thinking different thoughts.
      > But if you are both silent, then all the walls between
      > you disappear. Two silences cannot remain two.
      > They become one" - Osho
      >
      >


      Another interesting point; as the two silences meld into
      one, in another way, so does the contrast between the noise
      and the silence meld into one. Nonduality is a fact, is
      THE truth, whether we see it or not. We see the noises,
      we see the differences, which can be questioned as to
      their validity (thus the confrontation).

      The benefit in the silence is not to bury the noises,
      so much as it is to be noted that this silence exists,
      despite the noise.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      M. CHRISTOPHER VALENTINE:


      Forty Years of Wrath
      (To Anne)

      For forty years I have wandered in the desert of vengeance and wrath
      Stubbornly refusing to yield
      insisting that lust is love and kindness is compassion

      If you yield you can stay centered

      For forty years I have been lost in too much darkness at night
      Stubbornly refusing to bend
      insisting that by myself I could find the way

      If you bend you will stay straight

      For forty years I have been blinded by too much lightness at day
      Stubbornly refusing to fast the fast of abstinence
      insisting that satiety is transcendence and joy

      If you become empty you can be filled

      For forty years I have refused to sleep
      Stubbornly refusing to admit weakness
      insisting that the I am that I am is sufficient in all ways

      If you allow yourself to be exhausted you will be refreshed

      Then, suddenly there was you on the horizon
      playing the music on a burning violin
      And now I know that I must yield, bend, confess, surrender
      to a passion which eclipses all I have know in this life to this moment
      In your presence everything in the universe sings with fire
      Words crack, break under the weight I would have them bear
      For you, I will try once again to say it

      I am ice. I am drunk. I am asleep. I am music.
      I am fire. I am sober. I am the dream of being awake. I am silence and
      tranquility.
      I am rushing into the stillness which never stops moving.
      I am the words which love has not yet spoken for the first time.
      I am smitten. I am pierced. I am yielding to you.
      I bend and do not break. I am empty and therefore full.
      I am exhausted and there no longer need to sleep.
      Soon I will be nothing but smoke drifting, pure white smoke
      drifting back on the cosmic wind that is our mutual root and source.
      You and I are the one that is two, the two that are one.
      I have been looking for you ever since I ran away and left you
      Now that I have found you once again I am afraid to be alone ever again

      Now that I remember your name, I will never stop singing it
      Your name is Love. Your name is Joy. Your name is Compassion.
      I will follow you to the end of time and space
      until everthing that is slowly stops spinning
      and once again we hold hands forever and ever and forever.

      Universe without beginning, middle or end
      I yield to you that is me, the me that is you.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      GENE and Melody discuss
      Enlightened self-interest & compassion:


      Gene:
      According to the extant literature, Socrates would wander around,
      always using the concept of 'the good' as the basis for his
      teachings. Finally, someone asked him what he meant when he said 'the
      good'. His reply was; "What is truly good for one, is good for all".

      The emphasis here is on 'truly'.

      Melody:
      Good point. And I suggest that as long as
      a 'duality' exists....as long as an 'I' and a "thou"
      can be seen.....we are deluding ourselves if
      we imagine we can see what 'truly' is in another's
      best interest.

      Gene :
      Melody, I decide what is good for me. That is enlightened self-interest.

      If what I decide upon as good for me, is 'truly' good for me (good
      for one), according to Socrates, it is also good for 'all'. The
      reverse could also be said, and usually is, in the form of socialized
      idealism.

      Melody:
      When a duality exists....when I am speaking
      from my 'individuality'.....I am also speaking
      thru the veil of all my 'knowns', from my preferences,
      conditionings, and expectations. For me, this is far
      too limited a perspective to presume to know 'what
      is best' for MYSELF....much less anyone else.

      Gene:
      It is possible to have both perspectives at once; that is how
      one discerns what is 'good for one and all'.

      Melody
      To proceed as if what I'm doing "is for the good
      of all" does nothing more than make me *feel* good.
      I might as well be eating a chocolate bar.

      Gene:
      To proceed, as you say... is the mightiest of undertakings,
      fraught with risk; to proceed only on the basis of your own decision,
      is to learn, for better of worse. To proceed on the basis of external
      standards/criteria, is to simply build a larger body of hurt and
      resentment, to avoid responsibility, and ultimately, to avoid
      learning.

      To decide to move forward on the basis of one's own veracity, is
      indeed a risk, but a potentially rewarding one. This is the ultimate
      'selfishness', to actually behave as though one is real, instead of a
      hypothetical body, awaiting guidance and approval of 'others'.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      JERRY introduces Timothee Roi Diers:


      Timothee offers these questions:

      12 QUESTIONS

      All answers have inherent contradictions. I invite you to
      reflect on these questions without responding to them.
      Enjoy.

      1. Tell me something you know that you have not memorized
      from a teacher, book, religion, science, society, or
      parents?

      2. Who are you when there is no memory?

      3. What is equanimity? Is there a difference between
      detachment, peace, and equanimity?

      4. What is happiness? Is it the gaining of an object or
      the release of the desire for the object?

      5. Take away all your relationships and tell me who you
      are. Is there something left in the absence of
      relationships?

      6. With every birth there is change. What in your life has
      not changed?

      7. Can you experience anything outside yourself? Is
      suffering ever outside your own experience of it?

      8. Is there time? Can you prove to me that anything
      happens outside the moment?

      9. If enlightenment is beyond time, then how can one
      "become" enlightened?

      10. If peace is our self, then do you need intention,
      choice, and practice to realize it?

      11. If an "enlightened" individual and a "non-enlightened"
      individual both move their hands, would the energy that
      moved one be more "Divine" than the other?

      12. What is "the Divine"? If, by definition, "the Divine"
      cannot stand apart from anything, then is there
      anything you can say or do that is not "the Divine"?


      Read an interview with Timothee at
      http://www.nonduality.com/nugget.htm#3

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      BERTRAM:

      .........When one sees....recognizes....
      ... has insight... that the experience of suffering
      is always within "oneself" (the sufferer is the sufferering)...That
      insight alone ends the debate... for trancending flowers ,it seems,
      by itself, for the "seer" of this Fact..

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      CHRISTIANA revisits her definition of compassion:

      I find it very interesting to look at how we use words and the metaphors
      of meaning we have aligned with them.

      Last night as I read the posted dictionary definition of compassion, I
      noticed how mismatched it felt with how I've come to live that word and
      sat down to look at what it means to me (sans etymology).

      Then Andrew mentions "passion" as akin to suffering, and I note that
      passion is a term I use more akin to enthusiasm (en theos = with God,
      avec etymology).

      Since joining this list, I've held a deep inquiry into the ways that the
      word suffering is used. I've often resisted this word, thinking "I'm not
      suffering, what do they refer to?". Then the other day, this posted on
      the Jean Klein list:

      > Every moment in which we wish things to be different than they are, we are
      > suffering. Every moment in which we are not facing What Is, we are
      > suffering.
      >

      And I saw more clearly the endless moments of Shmee (my friend Elysha's
      term for screaming me) and recognized the endless subtlety of attention
      shifted to the foreground.

      As I reflect here, I see that compassion, as ordinarily used, is
      foreground behavior to foreground behavior (civility); yet there is an
      unshakable background awareness which has been solidly with me since
      childhood.

      So, I'll modify my words of last night, as I do notice choice involved.
      It is choice to lift the "magnetic needle of attention" from the
      impermanence of the foreground and allow the viewing field to open in
      awarness.

      David Hodges posted this quote from Ramana in his journal:

      > Your duty is to be and not to be this or that.
      > 'I am that I am' sums up the whole truth. The
      > method is summed up in the words 'Be still'.
      > What does stillness mean? It means destroy
      > yourself. Because any form or shape is the
      > cause for trouble. Give up the notion that 'I
      > am so and so'. All that is required to realize
      > the Self is to be still. What can be easier than that?
      >
      > - Sri Ramana Maharshi
      >

      And it seems to me that to know this, is at the core of compassion. To
      re-mind the flotsam of appearance, of this inherent duty simply by
      living from there.

      This passion (God, I AM) is what I rest in. It is quite simple to be
      there with self or with other. Compassion is merely reminding mind of
      suchness, upon which impermanence dissolves. And that surely aligns with
      Gene's Socratic reflection of the "truly" good.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      ANDREW:

      Compassion is prior to action. There may be no action only being with.
      Not separating me and you. But turning away, shutting it out is avoidance. Yes you
      might still walk away compassionately, that isn't shutting it out. Compassion is not
      dependant on subjects and objects, it is relationship. No me or you, only
      relationship

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      JAN:

      Perhaps it is worthwhile to be reminded of the fact that compassion is "coded" into the human genome and eventually will be
      transcended as well - when transfiguration is completed. Take a look at a herd of zebras (like humans, mammals) at dinner time. When
      a lion gets hold of a zebra, the other zebras hardly notice - they go on dining as if nothing is happening :) Compassion entirely
      absent..

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      BERTRAM:
      Ask yourself (without answering) the following question :
      Who
      is the ego?.Now ,WAIT ,WAIT..don't answer the question...Just
      contemplate the question for five minutes ...You may be suprised at
      what occurs!

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      GENE:

      Analytically speaking, the only act of compassion is that of having
      compassion for oneself. Any discussion of 'compassionate acts' done
      'to or for others' is merely begging the original question.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      JUDI quotes Wayne (? no last name)

      Questioner to Wayne: Did you recognize that there had been an
      understanding when it happned to you?

      Wayne: Yes. I recognized that there had been an event, that the sense
      of personal doership, this thing that had seemed so real, had gone.
      Well, even to say that isn't
      correct. It's like this: you have a toothache, your entire perception
      of the world is viewed through the pain of that toothache. Everything
      is affected by that, and so your perceptions are the perceptions of one
      who has the toothache. You go to the dentist, he pulls the tooth, and
      you no longer have a toothache. In that instant you say, "Something's
      happened. My perception has shifted! I'm experiencing things now
      without that pain--what a tremendous relief! This is how the world
      REALLY IS" Two weeks later, you are not looking at the world through
      the absense of the tooth pain. You are directly perceiving it as it is.

      Questioner: But there was something that happened to you.

      Wayne: Oh, there was an event, and it was dramatic, lots of crying and
      shaking and all kinds of excitement in that moment, but the
      understanding was, that this was just another event in phenomenality
      that happened through this body-mind mechanism, as part of the entire
      functioning of Totality--just like any other event.

      Questioner: After the realization happened did you stop actively
      seeking?
      Could you share with us a little more about that?

      Wayne: There was no one to seek.

      Questioner: I mean, prior to that, had you come to a place where you
      knew that actively seeking was futile....did you become still with the
      teaching?

      Wayne: Yes. There was a point where the intellectual understanding had
      deepened and there were really no longer any mental questions.

      Questioner: So, as long as we seek, as long as we're in the process of
      seeking, then that won't be final. Is that correct?

      Wayne: I would say that the seeking and the finding both fall away at
      the same instant. In the moment of Understanding, the whole conceptual
      framework, in which the seeker and the sought exist, dissolves.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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