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#4294 - Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - Editor: Jerry Katz

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  • Jerry Katz
    #4294 - Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - Editor: Jerry Katz The Nonduality Highlights - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NDhighlights ... I ve reprinted the original
    Message 1 of 1 , Jun 29, 2011
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      #4294 - Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - Editor: Jerry Katz
       
      The Nonduality Highlights - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NDhighlights
       
       

       
       
      I've reprinted the original letter from yesterday's issue, followed by nine reader responses. Thank you for your letters. Feel free to send more.
       
       

       
      Dear Jerry:
       
      I have been a fan of the ND highlights for over three years now, and while I am still learning much about advaita, I never fail to enjoy the daily excerpts and wisdom. 
       
      I had to pass this along, mainly because I didnt know how to answer him appropriately:
       
      My son, who just turned six, and I went fishing for the first time in awhile over the weekend.  It was a perfect day, and we were catching them as fast as we throw our line in.  It was great to get him away from Wii, I phones etc to spend some time outdoors.  Out of the blue, he turned to me and asked, "Dad, is all of this real, or is it a dream?"
       
      Wow, did that hit home.  I am of course weighed down by so much intellectual baggage to answer him with a quick definitive "yes or no".  But I did say I wasnt sure, and that it was a great question.  And, dont stop asking it.
       
      How would you have tacked that one, responding to a six year old who may be wise beyond his years? :)
       
      S.L.
       
       

       
      Yosy
       
      yes, s.l. thank you for the most appropriate, truthful answer...

      *********************************
      Cultivating unknowing

      Increase your doubtfulness, my friend.
      Keep questioning all things…
      Persist doubting everything.
      Until all incertitude
      Is wiped out and obliterated
      Without a slightest trace
      By the ever-present,  mysterious,
      Timeless and boundless
      All-pervading
      Grace.

      Once recognized doubtless  
      Self evident truth
      Whole, complete and all containing
      Needs no further proof.
      *********************************

      respectfully,
      yosy


       
      Rich Murray
       
      Give him a one-dollar bill, ask him to slowly raise it up with both hands from his mouth to nose to eyes and hold it there firmly against his face -- ask him what happened to whatever he was seeing in front of him -- lead him to understand that what he sees in an image in his mind, what he hears of your voice is a sense of sound in his mind, what his fingers feel of the dollar bill and his face are senses of touch in his mind -- then obviously his mind is real, whether full of images or full of partial darkness -- ask him to imagine raising both hands and patting his head -- then have him actually do it -- get him laughing at the mystery of it -- let him keep the one-dollar bill -- allow him to change the inquiry games and invent new ones -- give each game a name.

      Ask him to tell you his dreams.
       

       
      Gene Poole
       
      In a sense, his son is acting as his
      own (disowned, as per conditioning)
      prior-to-conditioning, young self.

      It is also an example of the 'second
      chance' afforded by the experience of
      raising children. We then have a chance
      to review our own assumptions, and even
      to try them out on our own children but
      in a conscious, sharing way.

      One good answer to his son would be this:

      "Son, I have been studying that question
      for many years. What my studies have revealed
      is that nobody really knows, whether 'this'
      is 'real' or a dream."

      "But I can say that pursuing that question,
      is a very important activity. I myself
      prioritize it as 'always pertinent'. It is
      one of the most important questions, and
      it is one that can really save you a lot
      of trouble in your life, if you do pursue
      it as an ongoing activity."

      So much for the answer to the child.

      >I am of course weighed down by so much intellectual baggage to
      answer him with a quick definitive "yes or no". But I did say I wasnt sure, and that it was a great question. And, dont stop asking it.
      >
      > How
      would you have tacked that one, responding to a six year old who may be wise beyond his years? :)
      >
      > S.L.

      If we can say that we do not know
      the 'real' answer, we can at least
      attempt to define our terms:

      - what does 'real' mean?

      - if something is not real,
      can it exist anyway?

      - we may agree on what a 'dream' is,
      but can we in any way, agree to any
      definition of 'real'?

      Our conditioned priorities throw us into
      a dilemma; we categorize things as 'real',
      as a matter of convenience. But this habit
      bleeds over into our 'theology', how we
      frame the world we experience. Our framework
      must by nature (given any framework at all)
      needs the central gravity of what is 'real',
      whether it is really real, or not.

      In other words; we are thrown into a public/
      private closet of unceasing hallucinations,
      which we try to slow down and catalogue in
      some useful way. It is our awareness of the
      hallucinatory nature of 'reality', which
      sets us apart from those who do not, for
      whatever reasons, question the veracity of
      their hallucinations.

      To say 'we hallucinate' is NOT the same
      as saying we are 'delusional'. The delusional
      person cannot approximate the great job the
      rest of us do, as we define and regiment our
      hallucinations. We can pick and choose our
      favorite religion or philosophy, complete with
      famed and named experts, founders, etc.

      Then it turns out, that our hallucinations mainly
      serve to alert us to the absence of anything
      which is NOT a hallucination. We struggle to
      maintain membership in the 'similar believer's
      clubs', trying not to appear 'atypical', and
      so to avoid social opprobrium. But such practices
      become the whole of the 'path of consensus',
      which is the universal human 'spiritual practice'.
      And breaking away from that 'path', can have
      unwanted consequences. Breaking away, living
      outside of consensus society, is certainly
      possible. But the real question arises when
      we try to examine just how 'outside' we
      really are. Do such definitions matter? Yes,
      for some of us, they do.*

      Understanding the unremitting nature of hallucination,
      opens the way to simply relax and gradually learn
      about the 'real' message about consciousness, which
      consciousness itself delivers, by its existence.

      ==GP==

      * Not to worry, though. One may fall back
      on, or 'take refuge', in the Buddha Dharma.
      Such 'one size fits all' formulas exist, and
      of all of them, Buddhism is probably the
      most evolved and fine-tuned to fit our 'real'
      needs.


       
      Yosy
       
      - what does 'real' mean?

      :) everythingl is as real as we are. our life, moment-to-moment, is our ongoing answer.

      ****************************
      definitions, borders, rules…
      they confine, restrict, direct.
      but the wind
      knows nothing of this
      and the sky
      cannot be bound.
      if you trap the wind
      it
      dies.

      ya yosy,
      let your spirit
      roam
      free!

      see:
      this moment
      is one
      with the ocean
      of time.

      ***********************

      yosy the fool


       
       
      Wayne (Wirs)
       
      My reply would have been, "It IS real, but, unlike it appears, all THIS (spreading my arms to the Beauty) is one, humongous, wonderful, living thing. Nothing is really separate from anything else, it's all One---all parts of a much greater Whole."

      Note: Buddha said/implied that the world is LIKE a dream, not that it WAS a dream (as so many claim). LIKE in the sense that in a dream all the symbols and meanings and pieces seem real when in fact all those "pieces" are just mental fluff. What you are sitting on is real. The "chair" (the mental symbol and meaning of it) isn't.

      I have a saying which I often share with readers to help clarify this, "If it requires thoughts to exist, it isn't real."
       
       
       

       
      Boundless Presence
       
      Not wise beyond his years, simply the innate wisdom hasn't been succesfully buried yet...
       
      "Son, you are quite right. This is not real in the way that most folks act like it is. They had a moment of fear that they covered up and forgot, and now they have made up an arrangement of thoughts to hide from that fear. We can help some of them by being completely open to their deep feelings. It is fun to let their fear pass through us. It is simple and refreshing like this summer breeze. There is no need to limit our Love by pretending, as most folks do. There have always been people on earth who are free from the dream. Some awaken at some point in their life and others never fell asleep and pretended. It is a Joy to share this great Freedom with you now. Playing here together, we can always know the Freedom and love any who have forgotten it. This helps them remember the Freedom and remember who they truly are."
       
       

       
      Beth
       
      Dear Jerry - Had to write this after reading ND highlights #4293. When my six-year-old son and I were out hiking one day, he spontaneously turned to me and said, "Mom, do you know what I think life is? I think it's a dream in the mind of God." I nearly fell over. I had not encountered Advaita/non-dual teachings at that point, but the comment really struck me and I've remembered it for these 20 years. We were not a religious or even particularly spiritual family, so I always took his comment as a spontaneous expression of Truth through the unadulterated mind of a child. Thanks for your delightful group, Beth


       
      Pete Sierra
       
      P: Well, not to through cold water on a father's
      wonder about his son's philosophical inquiry, it
      probably meant nothing more than 'I can't believe
      we are catching these many fish.' That the father
      took the question philosophically says more about
      the father than the son.

      If the child was posing a philosophical question, it
      was probably because he overheard that question
      in past conversations his father had with others.

      It will be very remarkable indeed, if the son of
      a Christian preacher would have asked that.

      We call real those of our perceptions that others
      can verify. What is real has predictable consequences
      that dreams lack. We call our life a dream as a metaphor
      for its evanescent quality.
       

       
      Mark
       

      The correct answer (and there IS only one correct answer...) is "In the immortal words of Albert Einstein; 'Uhhhhhh, I dunno...'" (It's essential to quote Albert, as this gives the answer the authority it requires. One must be firm with children.)

      LOve, Mark


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