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Wednesday, August 2

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    Timestoppers Textbook To know that you are a prisoner of your own mind, that you live in an imaginary world of your own creation is the dawn of wisdom.
    Message 1 of 1 , Aug 4, 2000
      Timestoppers Textbook

      "To know that you are a prisoner of your own mind, that you
      live in an imaginary world of your own creation is the dawn
      of wisdom." Nisargadatta Maharaj (contributed by Gene


      MARY: These thoughts appeared to me not long ago: Illusion
      cannot come from Reality; they are exclusive of one
      another. If all of this (our world/ life here) is a Dream,
      and we really are not the dream figures but the Dreamer of
      the Dream, then the Dreamer is not real either. I consider
      the Dreamer of the Dream to be Consciousness. Wrong

      JAN B.: Why a conclusion at all? The analogy of illusion
      and dreamer is given to those, considering themselves to be
      in a dream, by those, claiming(?) to be out of the dream.
      Remember the "explanation" of matter after the discovery of
      electrons, protons and neutrons? From then on, matter
      became "almost empty space" - "solid" matter being the
      illusion. Then, the discovery of quantum mechanics,
      describing force-fields, making solid elementary
      "particles" the illusion... A conclusion is based on
      perception and perception is likely to be illusive (it is
      never what it seems to be). As thoughts can be perceived,
      that includes conclusions based on thinking, which makes
      the above and every other conclusion based on thinking... -
      illusive - :) Now where does that leave "you"?



      a rotating wheel looks like a zero


      MARCIA PAUL: At this moment in time, I just feel yucky. I
      agree with Xan. My behavior is not any better (or worse)
      than that which I criticize. Someone has to just stop. And
      I wish to find that place inside (silence if you will) from
      which the the stop emerges.

      It is the feeling after an emotional indulgence and
      identification. The morning after.

      MANCHINE: Yes, it happens, we are human. You are fortunate
      to be able to recognize it.

      The last time it happened to me I took an afternoon to look
      into the eyes of self, here's how it went.

      Went to the mountains today. Me and Ale (my wife) and our
      black lab Miki!

      They're both nondualists. Miki came back from a romp in the
      sticks, tongue hanging down to her waist, a smile as big as
      the sky. They were sitting there against the glimmering
      image of the valley, in one instant, we all looked into
      each other's eyes... how could this possibly be?! Grains of
      sand filtering between my fingers, took an eternity to fall
      to the ground.

      I'm in Love, with Self

      Mountains, park, where ever. See in the moving bodies of
      others the same life's energy that flows through you. See
      in everything that touches your consciousness, Hir touch.
      It's just for you. Treasure it, ask it to show you the
      other side.


      XAN: I also like catching the early warning signals of
      indulgence onset. There's no substitute for stopping it in
      its tracks. Talk about happy!

      MARCIA PAUL: It is like standing in the sand as a wave
      breaks around one; everything is pulling to go in that one
      direction. The sand is even pulling away around ones feet.
      To stay on ones feet is truly a happy experience.



      None our "naming" talk matters. The only thing that matters
      is waking up to this fact; calling it "mind" won't help or
      hinder waking.


      This "refined intellect" which sees itself burdened by
      contact with mundane things is suffering from its own
      imagined separation from the mundane. It's "refinement" is
      its cage.


      As said in the Hebrew scripture: "I cause the sun to shine
      on the evil and the good equally."

      Nothing is out of place. There is only each event occuring
      in context of One Event.


      You aren't "in" Nonduality, you *are* Nonduality, and
      that's why you don't realize yourself as being "in"


      In my practices, I have noted the clever use of helpful
      metaphor, especially in the task of describing the
      undescribable, or at least what is difficult to describe to
      those of limited experience.

      One such 'metaphor system' is found in Vajrayana (Tibetan
      Buddhism). I refer to the statements which refer to various
      'Deities', most of which are classified as either
      'benevolent' or 'wrathful'.

      (Our beloved "Jehovah" is course, both benevolent AND
      wrathful; and he is the source of the crazymaking
      'double-bind' which is so pervasive in our history and our
      world-dream culture; I hold that without His 'help', there
      would be little problem with schizophrenia, bipolar, etc. )

      Eventually, the practitioner of Vajrayana will eventually
      'tumble to' (realize) that what is being discussed, in the
      topic of Deities, has a lot to do with how we perceive
      'ordinary people'; the realization is that it is humans
      (among other entities) who are being discussed as being
      either benevolent or wrathful.

      This realization is usually held in denial, the expectation
      being that there 'really are (invisible spiritual) Deities'
      which become visible as a result of long and dedicated
      practice. What happens instead, is shocking, a real
      hair-raiser; the practitioner sees these entities, these
      Deities, as dwelling in and Being human individuals. This
      includes everyone; your mother, child, wife, friend, etc.

      This perception, if it comes unbidden or unexpectedly, can
      result in major 'freaking out' of the perceiver; a person
      suddenly SEES a 'demonic' or 'angelic' aspect/presence in
      the person to whom they are relating. This event does
      occur, and is one of the compassionate reasons why the
      Tibetan Buddhists include this information in their
      cosmological teachings.

      I offer this information as compassionate caution to all

      Beware of the impulse to react to perceived 'evil', and
      equally, beware of the impulse to follow perceived 'good'.

      A deep study of the universe as seen by Vajrayana will
      fully inform you of the inherent traps and hazards to be
      found in our basic spiritual infrastructure; specifically,
      the impulses of AVERSION and its polar opposite, DESIRE.

      You may note, if you look carefully and dispassionately,
      that among the population of self-identified followers of
      various spiritual paths, that there is shame attached to
      desire, and yet VIRTUE is attached to aversion. People
      speak with pride and passion, of what they 'abhor', and yet
      they speak little of what they desire, having accepted that
      desire is a flaw.

      In the universe of living humans, life is movement, and all
      movement has momentum. Given this state of given movement
      (the gift of life itself), reactions and choices result in
      changes of direction of movement, at a given momentum.

      True and factual spiritual teachings take these factors
      into account. Given our pre-existing movement and momentum,
      we are always 'going to somewhere' and 'going away from
      somewhere'. Skillfully transmitted (shared) teachings point
      to this movement as the chief factor of WHY we should
      beware of both aversion and desire.

      The aversive impulse is to move _away_, while the desire
      impulse is to move _toward_. Persons who are unconscious of
      this basic reality of human design principle, are very easy
      to manipulate; simply present them with a symbol which is
      aversive, and they will move away from it. If at the same
      time, a symbol of desire is presented, they will move
      toward it. It is quite easy to manipulate most people in
      this way; this is how the entire world-dream system of
      governance/control is enacted.

      Wrathful Deities are generally considered to be symbols of
      aversion, and Benevolent Deities are considered to be
      attractive (desirous). According to Vajrayana, we have
      little choice but to continue to inhabit realms shared by
      deities of both natures, but also, we have the choice to
      react to them, or not.

      'Not-reacting' to Deities is difficult, but it can be done,
      and is called 'abiding'.

      The textbook teaching example of this human dilemma is
      found in the so-called 'Tibetan Book of the Dead', which
      (in proper translation!) leads us to understand that the
      dilemma of the newly-dead person, is not at all different
      than our dilemma as living persons; that being, the
      never-seized choice to abide, rather than react, to
      perceived 'good and evil'.

      One who seizes this choice of abiding, will perceive the
      whole universe swirling about them, each particle DEMANDING
      recognition, respect, worship, fear, or desire. The
      cacophony of contradictory voices will become overwhelming,
      the impulse to move will become very powerful. The choice
      to abide, must be long-cultivated and firmly in place, to
      survive this powerful challenge. That is why, in Vajrayana,
      the teachings are presented early and in digestible
      metaphorical form; it is to give children the chance to
      learn abiding (non-reaction) as a major, life-enhancing

      In the inner teachings of Vajrayana, it is stated that the
      reactive movement is what keys into existence, the very
      reality which is the perfect outpicturing of the inner
      assumptions of the person reacting. That is to say, that as
      the universe of attractive and repulsive Deities swirl
      about us, that we will inevitably 'see' a familiar moment,
      and it is that tiny 'snapshot' which becomes the seed from
      which our entire reality grows. In this way, it is said, we
      are able to materialize our personal universe, and then to
      begin seeking 'good' and avoiding 'evil' in that
      self-created reality. And make no mistake; this
      self-created reality is as 'real' as real can ever be. It
      is not a shimmering, self-evident mirage. It is as real as
      anything can seem, to a human Being.

      Of note among 'wrathful Deities' is the bleeding
      control-artist known as the 'Double-Binder'; it seems that
      a majority of people are helpless against this form of
      temptation. However, there is no compelling reason to leave
      abiding and enter reaction. For this purpose, I present the


      Here are common examples;

      "You are an idiot."

      "You are an idiot :)"

      Note your reaction to each statement.

      "Shut up and go away."

      "Shut up and go away :)"

      Note your reaction to each statement.

      The 'Double-Bind' is applied for several reasons, and is
      blatantly manipulative behaviour:

      _1 Overt hostile acts or speech automatically expose the
      motives and nature of the one acting-out; to disguise, one
      pastes a smile. "Smile when you say that".

      _2 Double-binding is ruthless control; it inflicts
      paralysis by trapping between aversion and desire, but is
      only effective against the inexperienced and
      unsophisticated. A threat delivered with a smile, is still
      a threat. When one is confronted with a threat, one wishes
      to run away, but if at the same time, there is a smile,
      even a mock-smile, one may be undecided as to what course
      of action to take.

      _3 Double-binding is done by those who have no other
      alternative; double-binders, as a broad class of people,
      were raised via double-bind control tactics, and thus know
      no other way of behaving. Such individuals are to be
      pitied, but also carefully avoided until the skill of
      abiding is firmly in place.

      _4 Individuals who apply double-bind control to others, are
      desperately lonely, yet in terror of actual human contact;
      typically, intense drama follows such individuals, and they
      bring it with them always. Violent events occur; fire,
      flood, injury, and other 'acts of God' are regular events
      in the lives of those who practice this ruthless form of
      fear-based bondage.

      _5 Double-binders, living exclusively in an self-created
      universe of CONTROL, inevitably struggle with others for
      control and dominance; there are precious few moments of
      equanimity, to be found in continual power-struggle. The
      double-binder has a ready menu of blame close at hand; no
      act which they commit, can be classified as 'wrong', for
      all of their acts are done 'for the good of others'.

      _6 Sentimental mock-love replaces actual empathy and
      compassion, as the expression of the double-binder; love
      becomes a veritable fetish, rather than a literal reality.
      Because it is inherently false, sentimentality cannot be
      maintained without constant reinforcement, and the best
      'source' of reinforcement is found in power-conflict with
      others. Living a lifestyle of control is guaranteed to be a
      rich source of conflict, and each conflict is exploited to
      reinforce the identity of the double-binder as 'good'. This
      is of course done by the method of making the other 'bad'.

      _7 The double-bind control artist will always avert
      attention away from what they are really doing, by donning
      the mantle of virtue, as they aggress upon others. In the
      private logic of the control artist, it is plain that those
      who offer opposition, are 'against what is good' and thus
      'deserver what they get'.

      It is up to everyone to simply avoid playing the game of
      the double-binding control artist; if ignored, they will
      protest that they are unappreciated for the good that they
      do, and will also point with alarm to those who oppose
      them, to rouse the 'rabble' to actions against those who
      are the targets of control. If ignored, they will begin to
      tearfully protest, to ask if their good is not seen, and to
      be understood to be active agents of 'good', striking fear
      into the closed hearts of those who would get away with
      being 'out of control'.

      Overall, the double-binder NEEDS opposition, and they are
      sure to arouse it by their words and acts. This need is
      really for the purpose of maintaining an identity of
      'virtuous', while indulging in blatant aggressive acts of
      paralysis and control over others. Predictably, words are
      spoken which point to the evil of others, and how the
      existence of those 'evil others' stands as justification
      for 'strong action'.

      Double-binding is, in a sense, the ultimate test of our
      ability to abide. On the face of it, it is silly, the acts
      of a stupid person who cannot see; yet, by sheer
      persistence, it is itself a thorn in the side of everyone.
      To learn how to abide the persistent presence of the
      double-binding control-artist is indeed a high calling!

      Now, back to the Vajrayana ideal of the wrathful Deity. In
      the inner teachings, wrathful Deities are to be seen as the
      same as benevolent ones, all Beings being the same Being.
      But, until this is an ongoing practice, it is only an idea.
      Firm abiding is the place between aversion and desire, and
      is also the place of choice. Reaction is the incessant
      movement between aversion and desire, and is the realm of

      The double-binder is one who lives in hell; as such, they
      perform a certain service, as do other criminals, in that
      we are invited to live in hell with them, or to choose
      otherwise. The criminal craft of the double-binder is the
      art of camouflage, but for those with penetrating insight,
      'good' is not an effective disguise for 'evil'. Neither
      good nor evil are sufficient reasons for moving out of
      abidance; yet, the choice to do so is always available.

      If one who is subject to the chaotic fires of hell wishes
      to boil the pot, it is simply their choice to do so; it is
      also choice to allow that swirl of the universe to keep
      right on swirling, as it always has and always will. From
      this chaotic brew will emerge those who can abide the
      boiling, no matter the constant admonitions of those who
      would have us set ourselves against those identified as

      "Resist not evil".



      The prevalence of psychotic disorders is approximately the
      same across cultures, a finding that intrigued me many
      years ago when I ran across those statistics. And
      depression is considered to be a world-wide epidemic,
      according to the U.N.

      Conceptualizable as an interaction of genes, biology,
      family, culture, and thought-forms that is transcultural;
      disorder within order, order with disorder, our human

      Thanks, Gene, for your insightful comments about
      aversion/desire and the use of double binds.

      How about these double-binds: you're organized (to be
      disorganized). you're alive (to be dead). you're here (you
      ain't). you've a body (you're bodiless).

      Yes, LIFE destroys me with a smiley face, "gives" to "take
      away" with a smile.

      Call it YHVH, call it Mandala, the wheel turns; I'm
      strengthened to be destroyed; the attempt to destroy me,
      awakens me.

      If I *am* both apparent sides of all double-binds, no
      double-bind holds me.

      I awake - my double vision has led to dissolution of the
      prison with no sides. The benevolent and wrathful dieties
      are shining.


      Speaking to the topic of double-binds ...

      The double-bind was considered by Bateson as a relationship
      pattern that assisted development of schizophrenia.

      The double-bind is considered to assist development of
      hypnotic trance by hypnotherapists of the Ericksonian

      So: If I'm good at double-binding, I maintain control, you
      become uncertain, open to suggestion and, if it's strong
      enough, paralyzed (entranced, bewildered, or catatonic).

      The double-bind can involve discounting a meaning via a
      meta-meaning, as:

      I harm you, because I love you.


      Because I love you, you disgust me.

      or Bateson's famous example of a hug that is given stiffly
      with distance, the nonverbal double-bind.

      or, related, and a bit more subtle:

      Your feelings are unreal, my ideas are what you feel.

      Now, there's a certain double-bind that is popular among
      sorcerers, magicians, and some spiritual types:

      Because I know nothing is real, whatever I say is real is

      Who is being hypnotized by that one? The sorcerer, the
      universe, or the imagined audience?

      How about in military campaigns: Create disorder for the
      sake of order. Hate for the sake of love.

      In spiritual circles, an excellent double-binding

      People who attack are egoic. I attack your ego because I'm

      Now, *that's* a pretty mesmerizing technique. No wonder
      it's so popular with so many "enlightened" controllers.

      No doubt I can benefit by understanding the double-bind. I
      can learn to handle those who use such techniques in
      interaction with me. Additionally, I can learn that the
      double-bind I've used on myself allowed me the impression
      that I took a form (and led to the impression that I then
      could be involved with other forms that attempted to
      double-bind me).

      Intriguing that I would double-bind myself with the

      I am aware of myself being

      The essential double-bind that allows the construction of
      myself as self-contructing is the situation in which I
      notice myself objectifying myself by noticing myself.

      Yes, it's all magic, all a double-bind, all a show without
      an audience.

      Even awareness is a double-bind: I am aware because my
      awareness tells me I'm aware.

      Even no-thingness is a double-bind: No-thingness is what
      is, because no one knows that no-thing is.

      I love learning this, because the show is awesome and
      intriguing. Now, I don't have to be caught by it.

      Love, Twice-unbound Dan



      There is a good article about double binds at
      http://www.well.com/user/bbear/double_bind.html with a
      number of examples of double-bind interactions.



      Hello everyone on the list,

      Does anyone know if the statement 'All is Past' (meaning
      everything we perceive,do, say, think is allready in the
      past, it has allready happened) is compatible with the
      non-dual view? Is enlightenment the living experience of
      this ?


      Welcome to the list. Yes this is certainly compatible with
      nonduality. All knowledge is memory, even what is sensed by
      the senses right now is past by the time it is registered.
      There is only one thing which is present, now, not through
      memory or senses. That one thing is awareness of being,
      existence. Zazen or Ramana's self enquiry (pursuing the
      question "Who am I?" to its end) are two ways of coming to
      that awareness directly. Nagarjuna and Dogen (the founder
      of soto zen) are two historical nondual thinkers who had a
      lot to say about time. There is a sense in which time and
      space are the same thing, space seems to exist because it
      takes time to get from A to B, time seems to exist because
      points A and B are separate. Current quantum physics seems
      to undermine time/space, an electron can be in more than
      one place at the same time. There is a chapter in Dogen's
      big book Shobogenzo titled 'Uji' which covers this
      exquisitely, Uji is his term for the eternal now moment,
      and his point is that Uji contains...is... everything.


      I see no conflict, although the aphorism could use some
      refinement imo. If something can be written or spoken of,
      it nominally refers to a memory -- that is why it is often
      said that the best language can do with reference to the
      nondual is to hint at or point toward it.

      As to what "enlightenment" is or isn't, one can state with
      certainty that it is not of the past or the future, but
      rather the famous "Eternal Now Moment." If it is not *now*
      it literally isn't real, the past being dead data and the
      future a fiction based upon that dead data. The most
      precious bits of dead are the aforementioned hints at and
      pointers to *right now*.


      My take on your question is this: I have never been able to
      detect any evidence that the past or the future exist.
      Everything I have ever experienced has been in the Present
      Moment. Yes, the past exists in my mind's memories, and the
      future in my fantasies and imagination, but does that make
      them Real? Time, as has been elucidated to me by those
      wiser than me, is a vast filing system for experience. If
      it weren't for time we wouldn't be able to distinguish
      duration, and thus wouldn't be able to experience our
      experience as events. As far as the enlightenment
      question...people on this list have never been able to
      achieve any kind of consensus on what enlightenment is or
      even if there is such a thing. To me enlightenment means
      that I feel lighter, and brighter. Milan Kundera talks
      about the "Unbearable Lightness of Being", but I find the
      lightness pretty bearable, in fact, I find Being worth
      celebrating! especially since there is nothing but Now to
      celebrate in...



      Seriously, I look at it like this, if a person is happy
      with themselves and giving of that to others, great, if
      not, it should be looked into. And if a person refuses
      that, and attempts to bring their misery on others, other
      people should be are called to step in and handle the
      situation in whatever way is deemed appropriate for the
      good. And keep in mind, I work in the court houses and
      sheriffs departments in my work, and I see the worst from
      time to time. There was this one guy, an alcoholic and
      doper, very angry man, decided to kill himself and
      deliberate take others with him. So he went down to Morgan
      and drove head on into this car where 4 kids were on their
      to their high school prom and killed them all. He's still
      alive. An angry confused man. It happens, so let's not kid
      ourselves. My daughter Chrissie when she was 16, on her way
      to school, driving her new little car, had a head on with
      this other woman who was also trying to commit suicide
      drunk, and deliberately drove head on into Chrissie's car.
      Chrissie's ok now. Depression/anger, if left unchecked is


      To conclude from this that all angry and depressed people
      are potential killers is simple prejudice. There have been
      times when I was angry and depressed but I would never have
      dreamt of doing such a thing. There are people close to me
      now similarly angry and depressed. If they could be
      otherwise right now they surely would. But it's something
      to be lived through. Acceptance of oneself as one is. Which
      goes along with accepting 'others' and being accepted. It's
      no help having well meaning people screaming at you to snap
      out of it. Many great artists painters musicians writers
      were/are angry and depressed, it fuelled their creativity,
      they did their best work when they were feeling shitty and
      the dark passion is what pushes their work from mundane to
      transcendant. For some people, the way is into and through
      anger and depression, there's no choice about it. To an
      'outside' observer, such a person might appear horribly
      stuck, obstinate, in dire need of 'fixing', but when the
      well meaning one attempts a fix, the angry depressed one
      attacks in self defense, being unwilling to be diverted off
      course. Like Dante's descent into hell, there is a chance,
      if the way is followed to its end, of coming out the other
      side and climbing back into the sunlight, I know this by my
      own experience, but on the way down, there's no turning
      back. The black dogs the wolves and demons would tear you
      to pieces if you tried.



      As compassion continues to reveal itself, I find that my
      frustration and empathy with the human condition are both
      melting away.


      Yes, compassion melts fear and loneliness and frustration
      is a compound of these (or so it seems to me...)

      I love the way Thich Nhat Hanh talks of interbeing. It is
      fundamental to the way things are. When you look at a
      flower, what is it you see? If you look closely with
      understanding, you see sun and wind and rain and dirt and
      shit (Thich uses the term garbage - he is so gentle. yum)
      When you look at the flower, you can see the garbage pile
      that it will be dumped on when it dries out and wilts a
      little. It has become garbage pile. When you see the
      garbage pile, you can see the soil that it will become and
      the methane in the air, which warms the planet, which
      increases the rainfall, which waters the seeds that are the
      continuation of the flower, the part that stayed "alive"
      when the stalk and leaves and petals transformed themselves
      into garbage pile, but you also see how the water joins
      with the soil and the seed and becomes the resurrected
      flower and how it will become garbage pile, ... That's
      interbeing. yum. I am not sure what it feels like to see
      that completely clearly except that I'm guessing it is more
      straightforward and direct and pleasant then the dualities
      in which I see it. I see the wisdom of it and the beauty of
      it and I also see the sadness of it for any particular part
      of that flower that might want to hold on to it's moment in
      the sun, or any flower and dirt and water - become human,
      that for some unknown reason decided to wish the flower
      would stay another day in the fragrant, vivid colorful
      reality that it was for one shining moment and will be
      again and again and again... Hmmmm. Is that what you mean?
      Yes, I deny that concept everytime I want to stop the movie
      (sorry - new metaphor) to keep one frame that is
      particularly compelling to me because I am silly enough to
      have preferences. I agree. I'm increasingly inclined to let
      the movie roll and actually watch it. It's a lovely film.
      Molecules aggregate and become human and then whirl away to
      be something else.

      I don't know what whomever said the thing about compassion
      never melting meant. Hope you find out.


      We are the Nonduality Generation.
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