HIGHLIGHTS - Monday 24th July 2000
- WHICH COMES FIRST? THE QUESTION OR THE ANSWER?
If you want to know The Answer,
stop asking the question.
Kir Li Molari
Until there are no ????,
there is no !
Kir Li Molari
I agree, and so did Jan - the real answer is the non-arising of the
The non-arising of the question
is the answer to the question
that never arose.
Thus - the question that arose,
never did; hence, is
itself the non-arising
which is its answer.
The question arose because
it was already answered
by its nonarising.
I: a rose.
The play of consciousness seems to be the arising and
resolution of the question, slapping down the question, like
some kid's game, so quickly it's as though it never arose.
Nonduality may be said to be the continuous resolution of
the question. At some point it is seen that there is no
question arising. You let lawns grow wild and mountains of
galaxies form in the wilderness of space. It's ceasing to
play the nonduality game and becoming God.
Understanding is great but it comes and goes like everything else.
What is It that allows you to say:
"it comes and goes like everything
From Where are you able to see that
"everything comes and goes"?
That Where isn't coming and going.
I see understanding as more stable than that, present
between breaths, in deep sleep and death.
Yes, and that continuity is good news. When the contact with this
understanding seems to go, it has not really gone, it's just been
dropped momentarily, like a child drops a toy for another one. It's
still available. Knowing this helps. So, here, understanding still
comes and goes, but when I notice it's apparent absence after boarding
the train of thought, I can go back to it by just settling down again.
It's like that muddy water metaphor. For quite awhile in my life, it
seemed as though everything was in turmoil all the time, never any rest,
never any sweetness - all struggle, all pain. Very muddy. Then, I
started listening to all the books and tapes and videos I'd collected
madly and I started listening to the voices on this list and other
people in my life, and I started cultivating spaciousness and calm. Now
I have them at hand. Th emud has settled, and clarity is present. I
still get stirred up now and then, but it is so much sooner thereafter
that I remember the relaxation that I have found and know is real and
very fine, and I settle into it again. If I just allow it, clarity
"Listen, great being, king of pure presence! The true teaching of the
absolute meaning cannot be comprehended or shown [through concepts]. It
cannot be defined, it cannot become an object of fixation, it cannot be
thought: it concerns a nature that transcends thought. [This nature]
cannot be meditated upon and cannot be the object of thought. It does
not know desire and does not conceive the idea of having to accept the
fruit [of realization].
Those who abide in this natural non-discursive state reach enlightenment
without embarking on a path; without exercising the mind, they obtain
self-arising wisdom; without striving, they spontaneously achieve the
capacity for spiritual action; without keeping a commitment, they
naturally maintain purity.
[In this state] the senses and their objects manifest as the clarity of
the fundamental condition, Buddhas and sentient beings are no longer
seen as a duality, and everything is preserved as unity in the
The fundemental nature knows neither unity nor multiplicity: could the
essence, which has never been born and has never manifested, ever become
the object of definition?
Listen, great being, king of pure presence! All the Buddhas and
sentient beings, the whole universe and the forms of life inhabiting it,
are my nature, beyond any concept of affirmation or negation.
My nature is one in the fundemental condition, and that which is taught
by the teachers of the three dimensions serves only to lead all beings,
in an indirect manner, to this single reality."
The Supreme Source
Choegyal Namkhai Norbu, Adriano Clemente
Translated from Italian into English by Andrew Lukianowicz
Snow Lion Publications, 1999
I know Jerry likes Satsang reviews, so how about this?
The other day I was reading our local newspaper, and to my surprise I found
a large article about a satsang lecture given by Francis Lucille in
Amsterdam. Since the article is rather large, and I do not have the time to
translate it entirely, you'll have to settle for a summary.
A scan of the original article is uploaded to the e-groups Nonduality Salon
The 'who-am-I-business' from spiritual teacher Francis Lucille
SMELL THE PERFUME OF HAPPINESS
The French spiritual teacher Francis Lucille preaches an age old message.
Everything is universal consciousness. The separation between mine and
thine, here and there, this and that, you and I is only an illusion. Because
everything is one. This is the truth, according to him. "When you acquire
this insight, you first smell the perfume of happiness. Subsequently you see
life as beautiful and magical", is what he says.
Last week, Lucille was in the Netherlands to explain the essence of the
'everything is one' principle (non-dualism). Not everyone was able to grasp
this. A middle aged woman comments: "But I am seated here, and you are over
there". Lucille maintains a long silence, thinks, and finally says: "The
idea of yourself as a person with a body is mistaken. A body/mind is only a
receiver, like a mirror. You see people and objects reflected in the mirror,
but the mirror itself is neutral. Thus thoughts that you have are not yours.
They are everywhere and can be received by your body/mind.
According to Lucille you cannot say that these are 'your' thoughts, spoken
by an 'I'. "This doesn't exist", he teaches "hence the idea of an I which is
seated over here and you over there is mistaken. Your body/mind is seated
over there, and mine over here, but not our consciousness, because
consciousness is universal, not personal. Could you say that consciousness
is being 'seated'?"
The people attending Lucille's 'satsang', the Hindu word for gathering,
laugh about the idea of a seated consciousness. Nevertheless various
questions follow, perhaps formulated differently, but they all boil down to
the same thing.
Francis Lucille is a former scientist (physics) and diplomat. He is
reluctant to say anything about himself, because, as he says in consistency
with his message: "My personality doesn't matter".
His satsangs, like last Wednesday in the Amsterdam Iyengar Yogacenter,
attract about twenty to fifty visitors, who pay 15 guilders ($ 7) entrance
fee to listen to Lucille, who advertises himself as 'advaita-teacher'.
Inspite Lucille's efforts to integrate familiar Western religion and points
of view in his explanations, the public fails to understand entirely what
purpose advaita or non-dualism serves. A man asks what he is supposed to do
to reach 'enlightenment' and become a 'self-realised' person like Lucille.
The Frenchman thinks again. He takes his time, and the silence is deafening.
Finally he replies that enlightenment is not something that you have to do
in order to reach it. " ...since there is no you. Self realisation in that
sense doesn't exist, because there is no self. It is the experience - which
is more than just the insight that all is one - that leads up to
According to Lucille, duality is an illusion, and "consciousness is not
personal, but impersonal, universal and eternal. The human ego is only an
observed object, not the all perceiving awareness." The questioner nods but
looks lost. He is about to ask another question, but changes his mind.
When Lucille tries to clarify his argument by taking 'loss of fear' as an
example, the public starts to loosen up. Now almost all questions are about
how people can lose their fears. Lucille says: "I am not into the
take-away-the-fear-business, I am into the who-am-I-business. Anxiety
disappears as a result of enlightenment, and is not an objective in itself."
Judging from the enormous amount of follow-up questions on the
anxiety-problem topic, the public doesn't just take this explanation for
granted. After a few more attempts to clarify the same point, Lucille
suddenly folds his hands, takes a small bow and says: "Thank you".
The satsang has ended. Tomorrow he will give a seven day retreat in a more
serious attempt to really clarify the concept of non-dualism and
enlightenment to his students.
"When you see that dualism is a lie, you smell the perfume of happiness, and
subsequently see the whole of life as beautiful and magical".
Written by Onno van 't Klooster
for Het Haarlems Dagblad, 21 July 2000
Translation by Mira
Luwig Wittgenstein (1889-1951)
I'm pleased to announce an excellent Ludwig Wittgenstein essay on the
Nonduality Salon's Western Philosophers section. Written by Prof. Doug
Winblad at Vassar College, a Wittgenstein scholar and dear friend of mine,
the essay highlights how the study of this influential and often difficult
philosopher can be used to deconstruct parts of belief systems that are
"bewitched by language" (Wittgenstein's phrase).
As mentioned in the intro, there have been parallels drawn between
Wittgenstein and Nagarjuna, the 2nd Cent. CE author of the Treatise on the
Middle Way (MUlamAdhyamaka KArikA).
The essay is here:
The Western Philosophers' section is here:
I must say that Jerry has tried his very best to publicize this section and
make it sexy. I tried too, in the writing phase. Sorry if it's not!
(Editor, NDS Western Philosophers section)
JERRY and MIRA's Contribution.
Thank you very much for translating this material and
sending it to Nonduality Salon, Mira. It is an excellent
report. I've included it in today's Nondual Daily Nugget and
have installed it on the Satsang with Everyone page, along
with Michael's report on his visit at Andrew Cohen's book
tour. I should note here that there are other reports, by
Christiana and Chuck, that need to be included too! They
Nondual Daily Nugget:
Satsang with Everyone:
I remind people of your website, which is one of the most
accessible and well-organized in the nonduality realm!
GENE Re: Haggling over names, gender, wisdom
I have always loved her calling herself "Old Hag".
We live in a culture in which women in their 40's - 60's
are ashamed to get out if they do not have a body
or a face that either stirs and excites the sexual passions,
Ah but she does!
_1) Said Timothy Leary:
"INTELLIGENCE is the ULTIMATE APHRODESIAC"
_2) Human energy pathways may conduct any energy; passion for Being
is identical with passion for procreating, yet these two are
arbitrarily kept separate in human philosophical systems.
The expression of passion for Being may occur as touching, holding,
or even 'rough play', as we see in young animals. This can include
biting, and mock domination and submission. It is all a natural
expression of the whole Being.
_3) Humans are in deep trouble, due to their stalwart obedience to
external 'standards'. Such sublimation of spontaneous passion for
life, leads directly to compartmentalization/fragmentation of self;
this leads to a forceful casting-about, searching for 'whom to blame'
for the feelings that result from having a scrambled brain. To
compound the agony, more 'standards' are taken on, heaped upon the
previous piles, in an attempt to 'tame' the 'wild beast' which is now
raging, shaking the bars of its criteria-cage; at this point, enter
Thorazine, Prozak, etc.
_4) "There is Only Self". The stripping off of clothes and the
merging of bodies can be a passionately fierce union and affirmation
of what was never really separate. The loss of individual identities
in a cooperative motion is a cleansing of the detritus of the ages,
and a rebirth.
_5) Discover just how beholden you are to 'external standards'.
Ask yourself if the 'search' is not actually a seeking to place
blame, rather than a search for peace.
Peace is easy to 'attain', if resentment and blame are dropped.
Resentment and blame are the fuels which power the search, which is
of course cast in the light of goodness. Dark impulses are relegated
to the shadows, from which they strike unexpectedly.
Humans are designed to 'surf the shockwaves', but we have
(tragically) been conditioned to internalize them and thus to
contract around what is perceived to be 'trauma'. Current standards
of judgement affirm that 'one person can 'do' something to another
person'; this has become the (tort) system of 'justice'. Building a
fat bank-account of resentment has taken the place of true personal
power. The model of the Righteous God Jehovah, smiting wrongdoers
with bolts of (accumulated) lightning, serves as our common
An entire race, crippled by connived conditioning, can be expected to
eventually begin eating each-other, starting with the young, the old,
and the helpless. The 'ethics' of this race are of the impulses of
the competitive 'alpha-male', the patriarch, to whom all are by
'destiny', totally beholden. Deviation from the path of obedience to
these standards, results in punishment, banishment, or death. We have
all internalized this sorry mess, from which we hope to recover by
resorting to 'Discovered Truth'. It is no surprise that some of this
truth is found in the archives of the human female.
GENE and JERRY in the Nonduality Patch
I see patching as preservation of false self. I see
integrity as legitimate patching. But I don't think it's
possible to know the difference between the two or whether
there is a difference.
Glad that you have commented.
There is nothing wrong with patching; the patching mechanism is
automatic, and can only be temporarily turned off by manual
From my POV, there is indeed a 'difference', and a very big one. The
integrity of the system itself demands that patching be enabled,
because without that mechanism in place and ready to function,
failure of identity could result in death by misadventure. Judi's
recent comments about SPV come to mind here; his patcher is not
working properly, and he is throwing spizzies as a result.
Integrity is actually translated as immunity; there must be
somewhere, built into the system, a standard or metric which the
current system can refer to as a reference for balance and/or repair.
Luckily, this standard is found in our DNA, which if undamaged, will
always direct proper configuring of not only growing cells (to avoid,
say, cancer) but also to insuring that there is at least a virtual
identity in place. The 'ideal' situation is, of course, that Self is
in charge of the body. But if that is not happening, the 'false self'
is the default 'autopilot'. Where these recent discussions has gone,
is to try to remove from this default autopilot, any screwy
socially-implanted assumptions (memes) which would cause problems.
One can say, and correctly, that Self is really all that is
happening, and that Self is always in charge. This is true, but this
information does not dismiss the search, or the suffering which
We would all prefer that from the beginning, our systems would simply
function smoothly on 'automatic'. It is only as a result of a
lifetime of suffering, that one begins to look for 'answers' to those
For example, if I'm writing a book and defend it, am I
retreating to a false self or am I strengthening the
integrity of my work? In either case I'm patching. How is it
possible for anyone to know?
I say that one 'knows' only after experiencing the difference between
'mundane' and 'cosmic' awareness. If a person is content as they are,
no problem. It is that darned suffering, which like a red light on
the dashboard, makes one seek repair or upgrade.
Your question posits several 'who' entities, all of whom are
inhabiting or sharing the same body or vehicle. This is actually
quite close to the truth of the matter, IMO. We all are inhabited by
a big squad of provisional or 'virtual' selves, each one of which has
its special purpose. But none of these virtual selves has the power
to actually run the entire show, at all. Every 'false self' is a pale
simulacra, in comparison to Self. And that is okay, as long as the
system remains within certain given parameters of stability.
And what is wrong with a false self? What is wrong with
patching to preserve the integrity of a false, deceived
self? The false self has been issued by Grace, hasn't it?
Grace issues every opportunity, including the opportunity to examine
and control manually, what could be automatic. My point has been that
we are actually NOT subject to 'external authority', no matter how
deeply we may feel otherwise. We are free to attempt anything we
desire. It is apparent that people desire the wildest and most
unlikely things, including the 'transcendence' of our built-in,
perfectly fine autonavigator. Perhaps this is because it is quite
common for the Navigational Computer (NavCom) to become corrupted due
to memetic contagion.
In any case, what is required is attention to the very core
of these possibilities: the false self, the integrated self,
the enlightened self, the no-self, and attention itself.
When all that is said and done, and it must be said and
done, you still have someone writing a book or an email ...
Yes, indeed. Well-said. Very true!
My writing here has been to attempt to share my own findings in
system repair and reconfiguration. This in itself should not imply
that there is really anything wrong, merely that it is the impression
that something is wrong, which starts a search, which on its way,
scavenges info from everything from Apollonianism to Zoroastrianism.
It is assumed that the search ends somewhere, with a 'master fix'
accomplished, and and then happily ever after. This seems not to be
the case, ever, for anyone, however.
The bottom line is to put attention in the right place, and
your writing assures that attention won't miss the things --
like false self -- that like to hide from attention. Thank
you for your ongoing surgical-like effort.
Yes. You are most welcome, O Fearless Leader!
As I live and breath, I see more and more, what are the products of
my conditioning. This would probably not be possible, if I were to be
ashamed of my intellect, or to try to follow the myriad formulae
which are propagated for the relief of a suffering humanity. I am an
anarchist, eclectic, and very choosy about what I entertain as
possible 'truth'. I have decided to do things my own way, and really,
I have no way. I just carry that blank check in my pocket, and live
by Grace, and for doing so, it seems that I am richly rewarded.
The void (of form) is open to all forms, including 'false selves' and
every possible human dysfunction. Such things seem to arise, but each
is quite temporary; they fade away, leaving only space. And I am that
space; I am awareness 'itself', as squeezed through Gene's
cake-decorating nozzle. I am pleased to be able to share, inform, and
entertain. It is my pleasure.
Sticky with frosting,
If I may, I would like to share a brief excerpt from Pir Vilayat Inayat
Khan's book Awakening (Jeremy P. Tarcher/Putnam publishers, 1999)...
How does on go about gaining insight into the deepest levels of
reality? First, by dropping the biases of ordinary thinking that
obscure the interconnection with the Universe. Bistami, a dervish who
lived in the mountains for forty years, said, "God fools you in the
markets of this world. Now when you see His effigies, they are just
devices. The reality is hidden behind them." He goes on to say, "The
Bridegroom doesn't have to suffice himself with the veil of the bride."
Stripped of the veil of the illusory, ephemeral traces of everyday
experience, our minds may gradually, in infinite regress, begin to
perceive remote glimmers of the thinking of the Universe. Ultimately,
we may reach a stage in our meditations where we discover a direct
intuition of meaningfulness unmediated by physical phenomena. Hazrat
Inayat Khan says that when intelligence is confronted with an object it
becomes consciousness, and when it is voided of any content, it returns
to its ground, which is intelligence.
Attainment of this "spiritual intelligence" is the ultimate
realization of mystics. Sufis call this state of consciousness Jabarut,
the ground out of which consiousness emerges. For as ordinary
consciousness is gradually freed from the perspectives of everyday
existence - thoughts, ideas, circumstances, emotions, physical events -
the transcendent dimension begines to emerge. What do we mean by
transcendence? Take, for example, an apple tree in blossom. Though
your glance takes in its trunk, brances, leaves, and flowers, you are
also moved by its beauty and loveliness. And while the beauty of this
tree depends on its physical form, still, it has an essential reality of
its own which is its meaningfulness. Or, take music, behind the notes
are an array of vibrational frequencies that could be said to constitute
the language of the thinking of the Universe. Likewise, it is the
meaning - not the letters - that shine through the words of a book or
text. So the mind, stripped of the distraction of transient thoughts,
is infused with an inborn sense of meaningfulness. This transcendent
faculty appears only when one has given up trying to sort things out in
an habitual fashion.
Once while on retreat in the Alps, I had just such a breakthrough
experience - one that was dramatically reflected in the weather and
surrounding landscape. After a stormy night in the mountains,
precariously sheltered beneath the roof of a shepherd's shed, I observed
the dark clouds and heard the thunderclaps gradually receding into the
distance, swept away by a raging wind. As if in sympathetic resonance,
my consciousness began to melt away, scattering into an infinite,
edgeless Universe. Vanishing along with the storm were my concept about
the world, the Cosmos, my personal circumstances, unresolved problems,
values, appropriate or inappropriate actions - even my teachings about
the Divine Qualities, the meaningfulness of life, egos, bodiness, the
psyche. Suddenly, all these thoughts seemed so futile, worthless, and
Rather than floundering in a "dark night" of negativity brought on
by the collapse of these mental structures, however, I clung to the very
meaningfulness that had just shattered my commonplace thinking. It was
the consummate quantum leap; it brought vividly alive the last words
spoken by my father, Hazrat Inayat Khan, on his deathbed: "When the
unreality of life strikes my heart, its reality is revealed to me." All
my life, I thought to myself, I have prided myself on what I thought
were valid theories about the Universe - unmasking the hoax of
superstitions, dogmas, and conditioned responses to life. But, instead
of dismissing all these constructs, I realized that they had acted as
stepping-stones that led me to this ultimate breakthrough. Even though I
now had no more use for them, they remained there for my use, like a
ladder propped against a wall, while "I" became immersed in the sublime,
wordless state of unity beyond life - existence inveiled into eternity.
I'm reading Ramesh Balsekar's "Pointers from Nisargadatta Maharaj", and I
have come across the following exchange (p.33):
"Visitor: What then is prayer, and what is its purpose?"
"Maharaj: Prayer, as it is generally understood, is nothing but begging for
something. Actually, prayer means communion-uniting-yoga."
This is an interesting response. Does anyone have any comments on it?
My take is as follows:
It seems to hinge on Nisargadatta's definition of yoga, which is not given.
Georg Feuerstein's book "The Yoga Tradition: Its History, Literature,
Philosophy, and Practice" gives a survey of meanings of the word yoga, from
the literal "union" to the following from the 8th Century Yoga-Bhasya's
"Yoga is ecstasy" (the word ecstasy being a translation of the word
samadhi. Feuerstein goes on to say that samadhi "is both the technique of
unifying consciousness and the resulting state of ecstatic union with the
object of contemplation."
Therefore Nisargatta is setting up a progression. I think "communion" is
what is done when one feels oneself to be separate from Self and seeks
unity with it. "Union" can be considered to be the NonDual realization.
So from this I get the following: Prayer is both the technique and the
resulting realization of NonDuality. Before realization, prayer is the
self-inquiry, the communion with Self, the turning of attention inward
towards I AM. In realization, there is the uniting. After realization,
prayer is yoga, samadhi, simply what is, simply Reality.
Any other responses?
MARY's top 25
I cant' believe how you have affected my dear friend Mary... So innocent
once. So beautiful, so nice...
Here's some more titles for judy or whoever else you want to offend:
The Top 25 Country and Western Songs of all time
25. Get Your Tongue Outta My Mouth 'Cause I'm Kissing You
24. Her Teeth Were Stained, But Her Heart Was Pure.
23. How Can I Miss You If You Won't Go Away?
22. I Don't Know Whether To Kill Myself Or Go Bowling
21. I Just Bought A Car From A Guy Who Stole My Girl, But
The Car Don't Run, So I Figure We Got An Even Deal.
20. I Keep Forgettin' I Forgot About You.
19. I Liked You Better Before I Knew You So Well.
18 I Still Miss You, Baby, But My Aim's Gettin' Better.
17. I Wouldn't Take Her To A Dog Fight, Cause I'm Afraid She'd Win.
16. I'll Marry You Tomorrow, But Let's Honeymoon Tonight.
15. I'm So Miserable Without You, It's Like Having You Here.
14. I've Got Tears In My Ears From Lyin' On My Back and Cryin' Over
13. If I Can't Be Number One In Your Life, Then Number Two On You.
12. If I Had Shot You When I Wanted To, I'd Be Out By Now.
11. Mama Get A Hammer (There's A Fly On Papa's Head).
10. My Head Hurts, My Feet Stink, And I Don't Love You.
9. My Wife Ran Off With My Best Friend, And I Sure Do Miss Him.
8. Please Bypass This Heart.
7. She Got The Ring --- I Got The Finger.
6. You Done Tore Out My Heart And Stomped That Sucker Flat.
5. You're The Reason Our Kids Are So Ugly.
4. If the Phone Don't Ring, You'll Know It's Me.
3. She's Actin' Single and I'm Drinkin' Doubles
2. She's Looking Better After Every Beer.
And the Number 1 Country and Western song of all Time is:
1. I Haven't Gone To Bed With Any Ugly Women But I've
Sure Woke Up With A Few.
Let's face it, this list has ruined my life... (but I don't mind...)
I thank God for my stupidity! Without it I wouldn't have learned
the value of wisdom.
Burned in the fire of living
I gave myself to my lover.
Do you know who did this to you?
My lover asked.
Only You I replied, only You.
Andrew Cohen is on a mission. Make no doubt aboout it. His cause
is to battle the diabolical ego and to conquer it. His cause is
to further the evolution of mankind. His cause is to promote the
truth of his five tenants that he boldly calls laws.
Read his website. He relates visiting many other teachers. Each
meeting carries the nearly same theme. AC meets teacher, has a good
time, gets hugs and respect, is told that he is crazy and confused,
AC points out some flaw(s) of the teacher (to the reader), AC departs
amid feelings of respect. AC has once again confirmed that AC's
teaching is more correct than other's.
Boy and Girls, friends and lovers, how many times will games like
this play out? Heeheehee!
Make no mistake, I do not hate Andrew Cohen, nor do I pity him. I
love him. IT is the game of the True Self. When and if the time
is right he will drop (have dropped for him by Grace) the last veils
of clinging and become free.
Andrew is living out the example of the righteous man who has a
Wonderful wonderful. :-))
Pain: ( from a Sufi story)
Put a handful of salt in a glass of water. Now drink!
Is it not bitter?
Put a handful of water in a lake. Now drink!
Is it not still sweet?
Give your pain to the vast I AM.
Life is sweet.
>AC points out some flaw(s) of the teacher (to the reader), ACCounting this time here? Hmmmm...
>departs amid feelings of respect. AC has once again confirmed that AC's
>teaching is more correct than other's.
>Boy and Girls, friends and lovers, how many times will games like
>this play out? Heeheehee!
Bloodied but unbowed, the seeker takes the 8 count
and valiantly staggers back to the center of the ring, shouting
"All right, God, that was a good one! Whatcha gonna do now?
Beat all of the idealism out me? C'mon, you bastard!
I can take it!"
With a lightening left followed by a powerhouse right, God
lands the old one/two punch and the seeker is knocked into Reality!
The crowd goes wild!
I would guess.......as long as it takes
one to know One.
Or is it: 'it takes one to no one' ?
Good night, Gracie,
Thanks for all of the inspiration you have given, Melody.
I love you. The world is a better place with folks like you
HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!
Peace - at play in the fields of the Lord - Michael