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HIGHLIGHTS of Sunday June 19, 2000

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  • Manchine
    WHAT IT IS JODY, JERRY, more St. George & GENE Dave: I don t know most of the terms like samadhi let alone nirvakalpa samadhi, but I think I followed what you
    Message 1 of 1 , Jun 19, 2000
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      WHAT IT IS

      JODY, JERRY, more St. George & GENE

      Dave:
      I don't know most of the terms like samadhi let alone
      nirvakalpa samadhi, but I think I followed what
      you were saying.

      Jody:
      Nirvakalpa Samadhi is the state where *all* activity
      of the mind ceases. It is the "deepest" state of
      consciousness a living body experiences. According
      to the swamis, very few people come back from it.
      That is, for most who get blessed with Nirvakalpa
      Samadhi, there is no coming back. The body drops
      off and the person has their Maha-samadhi, which is
      the literal death of the body.

      D:
      Anyways, in my experience, it appears that there
      are two basic "ways". 1) That one prepares to be
      receptive to grace, so that when it comes one
      recognizes its message, or 2) that grace comes and
      leaves a couple of big ones, which leads to
      figuring out what the heck's going on.

      J:
      Grace is ongoing in my view. Whether big ones or
      little ones, good ones or bad ones, it is always active
      in our lives, imo.

      D:
      Anyways, whichever way, I'm not sure that it
      really matters. Whatever happens for each
      "individual" is the prescribed medicine.

      J:
      Which is part of my case to the swamis. Realization
      happens to each individual in an individual way.
      Some may get it after a period of celibacy, others
      make no effort to regulate their sex lives, but end
      up getting it too.

      D:
      With respect to realization, well, I think that's
      a hard one. We've seen here that there is quite a
      bit of contraversy over what it actually is and
      whether there is even anyone here that has
      attained such a state. I think that this is
      because there are various levels of "realization".

      J:
      Hmmm. Realization is clearly defined in my view.
      Simply, when a jiva (individual life) comes to the
      direct, experiential and ongoing revelation that
      they are the Self, Sat-chit-ananda, that jiva can be
      said to be realized. While there may be many states
      which appear to lead somewhere and many realizations
      of wisdom and experience, Self realization is an
      entirely difference case, imo.

      D:
      So where does "grace" come in and where does "self effort" play?

      J:
      Who knows? There appears to be a correllation between
      self-effort and realization, but it's not absolute.
      That is, we can find many examples of spontaneous
      Self realization which don't correllate with long
      periods of intense sadhana.

      D:
      I had long periods between some of these
      realizations. I think fortunately for me, my first
      experience came (seemingly) involuntarily. I just
      out of the blue saw something. What followed was
      inquirey. Was that inquirey fired by grace or self
      effort? I could have just as well dumped what I
      saw and forgotten all about it, I think that
      happens a lot. For me actually, a long time
      passed. Not much self effort. Grace was strong,
      because the first experience was strong enough to
      leave serious doubts. Grace again opened the door
      to prod me into inquiring a little. A series of
      events dropped key material and information into
      my lap.

      J:
      Grace is with us each step of the way imo, even
      when the going gets really rough.

      D:
      A long time passed, I got into it, I fell out,
      blah, blah, but advanced little by little. Finally
      I got to where something told me (grace again)
      that NOW it was MY turn to make the effort.
      Finally after way too long, I had to consciously
      and with effort, take up the task of completing
      the journey.

      J:
      More grace in the form of motivation.

      D:
      We keep getting to points, where we think we have
      the picture clear. We feel this and we feel that,
      and there comes a fairly dangerous point, I feel,
      where we feel that there's nothing more to do!
      Just bask in the glory of nothingness! That's
      where a "pure mind" comes in. To get beyond that
      point starts requiring purity.

      J:
      Clarity accures in the mind that exists in the context
      of Self realization. When the individual knows they
      are nothing, the mind realizes a whole new platform
      from which to develop from. Realization comes,
      enlightenment follows.

      D:
      So what does "pure mind" mean. Not thinking about
      sex? Not using bad language? How about not being
      tied up with routine problems? How about any thing
      that places your focus in the illusion? The
      illusion is beautiful, but more for it's
      connection to the source than for it's "beauty".

      J:
      I believe for the swamis "pure mind" denotes a
      quiet mind, a controlled mind. While such a mind
      is truly a blessing to have--and it a worthy goal of
      any spiritual practice--it is not a precondition to
      realization. Realization can happen in the context
      of minds that aren't perfectly controlled, minds
      that contain a "normal" amount of chatter.

      D:
      Lack of purity leaves one open to moving away from
      the source. A single crack makes separation
      visible. Visible separation makes one feel that it
      is OK to be separate.

      J:
      We are all the Self right now. Self realization
      doesn't make us any *more* the Self, It just introduces
      a direct awareness of Self to the mind. Claiming that
      a pure mind is necessary for one to be realized negates
      this fact. There is no where to go. It is not a journey
      from scattered to quiet mind, its a simple uncovering,
      like moving leaves aside to find a gem.

      D:
      So we can come a long way. I mean "I" am in heaven
      over my realizations, and I have by no means a
      pure mind. But I'm beginning to see the depths of
      what lay ahead, for want of more purity. That's
      the other side of the coin. Once you've seen to a
      certain level, can you maintain a stable balance?

      J:
      Ramakrishna used to say "Dive deep into the Ocean of
      Satchitananda." It's a matter of making time in one's
      life for one's dips. The more one swims, the longer
      one can stay "underwater".

      D:
      Where is your balance? (rhetorical question, not
      directed at you jody :-)

      J:
      I find it in the woods, sitting in this chair, petting
      my cat, at the Vedanta Center.

      D:
      Can you feel the things that pull you away?

      J:
      Emotional pain. It is unavoidable sometimes. While
      we may have recourse to Pure Being, our bodies and minds
      still have to go through it.


      D:
      I guess it's less important exactly what you do
      (sex, agression, marriage), than it is just being
      aware of what's real, as much as possible.



      JERRY:

      "being aware of what's real, as much as possible." you say.
      Everything's being spun, spiralled, whirlpooled, at once
      into and out of the Source. They are Source. Attention can
      lie anywhere while it too spirals and whirls and is always
      coming out of Source, and it is Source; even as the Sun
      throws flares and prominences that are pure Sun.

      The sun is pure consciousness. A person is pure
      consciousness. Everything is pure consciousness. A rock is
      pure consciousness. Here's an inquiry: Pure consciousness?
      It can be uttered when walking along Ed Arrons' St. George
      Street.


      GENE, recapitulating Ed's St George Street of Saturday:

      NDS

      Excellent!

      Ed, you wrote:

      Strolling on St. George St.,
      4 levels of awareness are noticed:

      1) when 'individuals' and self are perceived and experienced as
      separate. Conversations occur but the feeling of separateness
      persist; there are moments of alienation, moments of horniness,
      and moments wanting to rise above it all.

      G: I would add, that interspersed, are moments of longing for #2, below.

      2) when the self and other become a whole; this is Pure Awareness;
      there is no inner or outer; no self; the 'other' appears unreal or
      dream-like; the Now seems absolute and unchanging...until it is
      suddenly dissolved by some compelling necessity or suppressed
      desire.

      G: Well-described!

      My experiences on this 'level' show 'self' and 'other' to be 'tonal
      harmonics' of a vast, eternal continuum; each has no choice but to
      participate, conscious or not. If conscious, there is 'empathy beyond
      empathy'.

      3) when self and other seem connected by words and thoughts yet
      'knowing' that the words and thoughts are ultimately meaningless;
      it is all very intellectual; ideas come and go disguised as non-ideas
      or dream-states; the "I" doesn't really exist; a persistent voice
      keeps saying "nothing really exists" as if to convince itself it is
      Pure Awareness. (This sometimes happens when writing to NDS :-))

      G: Similar to borrowing your friend's set of keys, to open your own
      door, and then lending yours; this is strange, but in the moment,
      normal. It is 'proof' that "things are not as they seem, nor are they
      otherwise".

      4) when self and other seem real and connected by feelings of
      resonance; everything seems alive with beauty and joy; mergings
      take place and dissolve; there is a Now that flows from event to
      event; there is no beginning, no end, yet somehow it gets lost,
      almost imperceptibly, in separation.

      G: A child's reality.

      E:
      These states come and go without choice, though it often seems as
      if will activates them. There is always a compelling motive for
      any 'choice'...which is seen upon reflection to be of prior existence.

      Which state of awareness will prevail is anybody's guess.


      Take a stroll on St. George St. sometime and...
      Be kind to yourself .


      G: Once one has consciously been there, one may return.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      MICHAEL READ:

      From the vastness of being
      Condensed to the apparent

      Easy to see
      Hidden from view

      Exactly the same everywhere
      Completely diverse

      Perpetual mystery
      Infinite understanding

      Dining on joy
      Imbibing of misery

      This is my play
      I never tire of it.


      HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

      Peace - Walking in Wonder - Michael


      -----------------------------------------------------

      MARY and ANDREW

      ANDREW:
      Here and now is existence, if it isn't here now it doesn't exist.
      If it exists it's here now.
      Here is where I am.

      MARY:
      I have this awarenss.

      A:
      I am everywhere.

      M:
      I understand this. I understand intellectually that Mind is
      everywhere and nowhere; it is non-local. And I understand that
      wherever I , as Mary, go, there I am. What I haven't had, was the "
      experience" of being everywhere at the same time, that experience of
      being one with all.


      MARCIA adds:
      It has been my experience that the self that wants the experience
      is the self that can never have it. That self, trying to have the
      experience, is like "trying to pick up the board you are standing on."

      A:
      Mary, I think you're more realized than you realize.
      Experience is experience, whether it is understood as
      universal or not is just a matter of mental habits. Many
      traditions regard extraordinary states and experiences
      as worthless distractions. There's a Chan story of this
      monk who's hiking along one day and he meets this guy,
      and they walk along together, having a great time
      discussing stuff until they get to a deep river, and the
      guy walks across the river on the water and stands on the
      other shore saying "come on why don't you" and the monk
      looks at him and says "I thought you had some real
      understanding but you're just a plain old worker of miracles"
      and heads off upstream to find a shallow place to wade
      across.

      PAPAJI (contributed by xan)

      Is it really so simple? Yes.
      When you know it then only you will laugh.

      Everybody who is making efforts to get it for
      millions of years will have a laugh that this is
      done through no effort: 'I got it. I was already
      all right.' So one laughs at it.

      So only then you say: 'Was it so simple?' Yes,
      it is very simple. And it is difficult because it so
      simple. What is so simple cannot be understood.
      What is so near cannot be seen. As the eye sees
      everything, it cannot see itself. Was the difficulty
      too much nearness? I cannot see eyes themselves
      because they are too near to themselves. And it
      doesn't need seeing at all. Therefore, you don't
      need to see something. Only need is to be and
      not to see.

      Therefore, being is very simple. And you cannot
      have it with any kind of effort. Being is being.

      So it is so simple that people who have to go
      to mountain caves and for years perform tapas,
      they will achieve some powers for many years,
      practices, but still they cannot know being. It's
      just being here and now this very instant. Who
      believes? He will know it. He will laugh.
      He will call it, 'It's so easy!'

      --Papaji


      CEE not seeing things:

      who sees the moon anyway?

      if i am seeing it
      i am so much more (and less)
      than i think i am.

      stop seeing things!
      let your vision be non objective
      divisions, lines, and circles are imaginary playthings
      relax your brilliant attention

      let it rest at the source

      so vast, so complete
      nothing to see!


      seeing
      kisses
      the blessed feet of

      BEING



      love and kisses,
      cee
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