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Tuesday/June 13

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    if we love to be loved and we love to love jump in! wheeeeeeeeeeeeee! dive deep, straight to the source of this vast love deep deeper still! luxuriate
    Message 1 of 1 , Jun 15, 2000
      if we love to be loved
      and we love to love

      jump in!
      dive deep, straight

      to the source
      of this vast




      luxuriate and wallow (my favorite word)

      the glory of existence!

      you know,

      " Man's search is basically to be one with existence.
      Separation hurts." --Osho

      First one works to become one with family, one with peers,
      one with community. When that fails, one's attention begins
      to shift inward, as one works to become one with self.

      when that fails, as it must, then it could be said that we
      are at the begining. --matthew

      This is the divine comedy ... working to be what one
      already is. --Xan

      When all work and all trying stops,
      we are what we are and what we have
      always been and will always be...like it not...:)

      Some like it hot,
      some not...
      And so it goes,
      and so it is
      in the isness
      which we call life
      when we are living it
      instead of disecting it.
      --Michael D. Johnson


      The Divine is the love of being. First you must Know the
      Divine – the love of Self.

      This can only happen when the mind ceases censoring the

      To realize the Divine within your own heart is to See its
      reflection everywhere, in everything.

      This reflection and the Seeing of it is dependant on the
      Eternal principle in which they appear, and

      You are That.

      --Esther Veltheim (contributed by Michael D. Johnson)


      Mark Paul Petrick and David Hodges

      Your use of the term "dreary thought that everything is
      predetermined" catches my attention. It was just that
      thought that I found utterly conceptually liberating when I
      first came upon advaita a couple of years ago. I'd been
      regularly involved in meditation since the early 1970's,
      taught it, lived the cult of self-improvement, growing to
      higher states of consciousness, doing all of the prescribed
      sadhanas to rid myself of stress, etc. etc. Unity was
      something "out there" that could be achieved by "me" as an
      individual, the enlightenment prize. But, what kind of
      unity, or god, or source, or absolute, or nature is it
      really if it isn't truly all-comprehensive and
      encompassing, the "all there is, is consciousness". I
      prefer my concept of unity to be total, and my notions of
      self, me, growth, evolution, pleasure and pain to be
      predetermined waves on a single ocean of Being. It's just a
      concept. --Mark Paul Petrick


      Hi Mark, I utterly concur with you that "all there is, is
      consciousness", and that there can be no unity or oneness
      outside of this. So the idea of the separate "me" achieving
      unity is impossible as if "me" could be outside of unity to
      begin with.

      No, to me the dreariness in the thought of predetermination
      comes from the generational baggage I have from my
      Calvinist forbears with their doctrine of predestination.
      This brings to MY mind an image of some external sky-God
      running a puppet show in which all of we sinners merely are
      moved through our paces. I remember being taught in some
      Sunday School or Bible Study years ago that God even knows
      in advance whether or not we will be "saved".

      Contrast this to other models. You describe a single ocean
      of being with predetermined waves. I would describe a kind
      of cosmic "Zero Point" from which issues in a constant
      eternal Now a bubbling froth of continuous creativity. It
      is senseless to think that my separate self or ego could
      set itself aside from that froth and try to affect its
      course. But it is equally senseless to think that there is
      a separate masterplan or blueprint in some higher cosmic
      awareness that knows what is going to bubble forth in the
      froth at any particular time, isn't it? I would much rather
      like to think that a liberated being might become some kind
      of Heisenbergian surfer of the cosmic froth, skipping from
      here to there and from time-point to time-point like a
      boogie-boarder, perhaps by a kind of at-one-navigation of
      what arises in consciousness as he/she goes along. Call it
      predetermination if you will but its within an infinitely
      vast menu of choices. But as you say, it's just a concept.

      --David Hodges

      P.S. Actually, if I read Aurobindo right, rather than a
      constant Creativity, the great Process is more like a cycle
      of Creation - Sustaining - Destruction, or cycles within
      cycles within cycles of that creation - sustaining -
      destruction. Perhaps those are the waves you describe in
      the ocean of being.


      I do like the idea of chaos as it is described by modern
      mathematicians, wherein there are phenomena which are
      deterministic, but unpredictable. They tend to move near a
      "strange attractor", but can never be pinned down in
      advance. (free will, pre-destination; does it matter?) But
      liking an idea and having an experience are not quite the
      same thing. It feels to me that here I am and I am doing
      what I am doing. However that works out will be however it
      works out. There is no need to break it down further,
      because it's fine as it is. As Jim Morrison said,
      "Everything is broken up and dances". If the dance is a
      whole, that whole is made of bits that interact. Both the
      description of things as a whole and the description of the
      whole as parts interacting are valid descriptions. Who is
      describing? A bit that is dancing the dance of description.
      That's fine too. I really don't know what the future will
      bring. I really don't care much about the past. If typing
      these words is what is happening, then so be it. There may
      be bars, or there may not. If the bars are a problem, then
      I am free to experience the problem of bars. It IS all
      happening at the zoo, whether I believe it or not.

      It's like you wrestle with it so hard that it hurts, and
      then you admit that you can't get it, and a bubble pops,
      and it's all just fine. bursting at the seems...
      --Mark Otter


      Einstein, contribute by Andrew Macnab

      "I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his
      creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in
      ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an
      individual that survives his physical death; let feeble
      souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I
      am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and
      with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure
      of the existing world, together with the devoted striving
      to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason
      that manifests itself in nature." [Albert Einstein,_The
      World as I See It_]


      David Hodges on Journal Keeping, a new NDS activity:

      Hi everyone, I recently got interested in a new online form
      of self-expression. It is called "OnLine Journalling". It
      is very simple. Using one of several free services, you
      write entries to your own personal journal. You can write
      as often or as seldom as you want. You can be anonymous via
      use of a handle, or you can use your own name. And people
      can visit your journal and read, and even leave comments.
      It is a different form of self-expression than contributing
      to a mailing list like the Salon. It is more personal, and
      you don't worry about having to please anyone but yourself.
      The site I am using (more on that in a minute) gives you a
      little pop-up program so that you can make entries to your
      journal whenever you want without having to go through your
      web browser (although you can do that too.)

      So I was mentioning this to Jerry yesterday and he
      (synchronistically) had been thinking about journalling
      too. We thought that if a number of Saloners starting
      keeping journals, he could put links to them on
      www.nonduality.com, and maybe have a daily "NonDual Journal
      Entry" link.

      We settled on http://www.livejournal.com, although there
      are others (DiaryLand at http://www.diaryland.com and
      Blogger at http://www.blogger.com are a couple of other
      free services).

      We have each started a journal which you are welcome to

      Jerry's: http://www.livejournal.com/users/umbada

      Mine: http://www.livejournal.com/users/wandertheearth


      highlights editor has added these additions: Melody
      Anderson, http://www.livejournal.com/users/melody

      Andrew Macnab, http://www.livejournal.com/users/rubiolio/

      Christiana Duranczyk,

      Jody, http://www.livejournal.com/users/jodyr

      Gloria Lee, http://www.livejournal.com/users/nirvana


      So if you are interested, go to http://www.livejournal.com
      and check it out, and then let me or Jerry or the whole NDS
      list know if you start a journal that you want to share.

      I am excited about the possibilities of this!


      I visited your journal and saw this on your page Melody :-)

      "Melody Anderson has no friends defined. If you are Melody
      Anderson, you can edit your LiveJournal friends so they
      show up here."

      Couldn't help smiling :-))))

      LOVE Dutch


      "Who loves not wine, woman, and song remains a fool his
      whole life long."

      Martin Luther (via Andrew Macnab)


      Notes on the Nature of Vedanta Society

      by Jody Radzik, with Greg Goode

      Greg Goode:You mentioned going to the Vedanta Society
      temple, enjoying the company of seekers more, despite the
      socio-cultural differences. What differences are those?

      Jody Radzik: Most of the members of the Vedanta Society are
      of the mind that one must eliminate desire (as if this is
      in "our" power) in order to be blessed with realization. In
      fact, many have stated outright that celibacy is absolutely
      necessary before realiztion can occur. Many of the
      Ramakrishna Math swamis hold the same incorrect view.

      They believe this because Ramakrishna constantly preached
      of the dangers of "women and gold." What the VS devotees
      don't realize is that Ramakrishna directed this teaching to
      his younger male devotees and not to the householder
      devotees, and that he did this for reasons Vedanta Society
      members aren't prepared to deal with.

      As a result, most members of the Vedanta Society hold
      celibacy and asceticism in high esteem, setting the bar for
      their lives much higher than they need to. The only thing
      this gets them is pride in their renunciation, and the
      expectation that only when they are as they imagine
      Ramakrishna and Vivekananda were, will they be blessed with
      realization. It also gets them a sh*tload of guilt when
      they "backslide".

      The difference between them and myself is that I've always
      lived in and enjoyed the world, and that Mother has made it
      exceedingly clear to me that She will bestow realization on
      whomever She wants, despite their disposition as ascetic

      Unfortunately, no one believes I know what I'm talking
      about, except my guru. In the interest of maintaining the
      status quo, he doesn't enter the debate, even though he
      confirms my assertions as I'm making them.

      This isn't to say that I don't get along with them. I do
      for the most part. However, I've found myself in raging
      debates, the whole bunch of them vs. me. I find this
      situation quite enjoyable, but it seems to shatter their
      quaint ideas about what the center exists for, and so in
      deference to my guru I usually keep a lid on it.

      Greg Goode: I used to go to the two centers here in
      Manhattan, years ago. One thing I never asked, maybe you
      know the answer. With their view of realization, is there
      anyone in the organization (swami or householder) for whom
      realization occurred? Swami Nikhilananda? Swami
      Brahmananda? Also, is your guru there at the Vedanta

      Jody Radzik: I just got back from an evening with Swami
      Bhaskarananda, who is visiting from the center in Seattle.
      During his talk he spoke about a pure mind, and how such
      was necessary for realization to occur. Afterwards I
      mentioned that such an assertion makes realization
      dependent on a condition, which refutes Sankara. I asked
      what he meant by pure mind. He used the analogy of states
      of matter. Water has forms as a solid, liquid, and gas. He
      said the pure mind was like the gaseous form, it could
      travel through the glass and become the Self. That didn't
      really answer my question.

      A little later someone posed the question of self-effort
      vs. grace. The swami feel hard on the side of self-effort.
      He maintained that it was by self-effort that grace comes.
      Otherwise, we would all be realized just by wishing for it.
      I decided not to mention that this makes grace dependent on
      a condition as well.

      I took the opportunity to trot out a metaphor of my own. A
      baby comes into the world with awareness of the Self. Let's
      imagine this takes the form of red contact lenses, right
      out of the womb. The idea is that all our development
      happens in the context of awareness of the Self, that is,
      we are always seeing through red lenses. Therefore, we
      *don't* see the red at all, because it has *always* been a
      condition of our seeing.

      Now as we develop, these lenses acquire faceting in the
      form of learning and experience. When we decide to turn
      inward, we apply self-effort in order to remove the
      faceting. This would be the swami's pure mind.

      Now, we've been totally successful in clearing away all the
      faceting. What we're left with is red that we can't see.
      Here is where grace comes in. It requires an act of grace
      to remove the lenses, and until we see the lenses, we
      cannot see the red. Furthermore, grace can occur to the
      person whose lenses are still quite faceted, so that
      realization can occur in the context of a less than pure

      Swamiji brushed me off by saying that he could not accept
      the analogy, as the lenses signified a defect in seeing. I
      explained that this wasn't the thrust of my metaphor, but
      left it at that.

      A while later I asked Swami if he believed nirvakalpa
      samadhi to be necessary for realization. He said yes. I
      asked if he knew anyone personally who had experienced this
      samadhi. He said he thought so, but that they didn't talk
      about it. He said some of the senior monks show signs of
      it, but that it is inappropriate to speak of it.

      He also related that Brahmananda said that spirituality
      doesn't even really begin until one has been blessed with
      nirvakalpa samadhi.

      I've been blessed to have taken initiation from a monk of
      the Ramakrishna Order, and I'm quite convinced he's a
      bona-fide, yet successfully hidden saint.

      However, the implied ideology of the Vedanta Society needs
      a lot of work. The concept of pure mind creates too many
      expectations about what that would be, and what is required
      to achieve it. A better term would be an "innocent" mind,
      which is pure in a way, but not necessarily totally
      unadulterated. Being the opinioned bastard that I am, I try
      to make my critique known to the swamis I meet, all out of
      respect and love for the Truth. They aren't used to hearing
      critiques from the members, so it's nice to report that
      they all handle it very sweetly, which says a lot about
      them as people.

      So, to get back to the question, the swamis do believe
      most, if not all the original disciples of Ramakrishna were
      realized, and they believe there are realized members in
      their midst, although it is their custom never to speak of
      it to anyone.

      We are the Nonduality Generation.
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