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Highlights for Thursday June 8th

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  • andrew macnab
    JUDI posted: Of what use is your learning and your devotions? Does a donkey become wise through living in a library or a mouse acquire holiness from living
    Message 1 of 1 , Jun 9, 2000
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      JUDI posted:

      "Of what use is your learning and your devotions? Does a donkey become
      wise through living in a library or a mouse acquire holiness from
      living in
      a church?"

      "What is it, then, we need?"

      "A heart."

      "How does one get that?"

      The Master would not say. What could he say that they wouldn't turn
      into a
      subject to be learned or an object of devotion?

      Anthony de Mello, SJ

      XAN posted:

      So you have to make up your mind, you see.
      So you have to make a firm decision. Nothing can
      trouble you. If you are weak, then everything will
      trouble you. Simply decide to sit quiet. Simply!
      This will be a fire. Nothing can touch you.
      Only your decision is weak.



      Time is actually place, location. So what time it is is here; and here
      is moving at a pretty good clip. So the question is where is here in
      relation to somewhere else. But the somewhere else is also moving. Maybe
      it would be easier to just look at a clock. I once had the idea of
      making now the reference point and all other times "Ago" or "Till Then";
      that way your watch would always say "zero" but your calendar of past
      and future would be constantly changing. I abandoned the idea.


      GENE POOLE about denial (snipped from a longer conversation between Gene and Melody):

      Denial is taught by example; the ways of the parent/culture become
      the ways of the child. By paying attention to inner disturbances,
      such as those brought about by the behaviour of denial, we have an
      opportunity to go beyond the criteria of culture.


      I think the continuing effort is to change the 'default setting
      of reaction' from denial to 'standing in the light of one's own
      awareness'. And your points about how the body gives sensory feedback
      are well stated. If one ignores this kind of biofeedback, eventually
      the energies which are emanations of inner distress, become accepted
      as 'normal'. To allow this to happen is to become desensitized to
      oneself, which is not the same thing as 'nonattachment'. If we ignore
      our feelings, we become deadened to the feelings of others; that is
      how empathy is lost.

      As (wounded) adults, we are faced with the task of 'changing canoes
      in mid-stream'. This is less of a challenge if we are not in the
      'white-water of emotion'. To allow calm to prevail, to become placid,
      without denying, can be a challenge. It seems that 'there are those
      who' deny the necessity of this kind of inner adjustment; skipping
      the steps of confronting our denial, while counting on the arrival of
      a type of overall fix, brought about by a higher-level 'adjustment'.
      Spiritual aspirations which ignore the 'detail work' are in
      themselves, subtle denials.

      An individual who is plagued by fear and anxiety may pray for relief;
      but it is the withheld reactions to what is fearful, that forms the
      basic contraction that underlies fear and anxiety. That one 'should
      not' be fearful, this ideal as hammered into us by our culture, puts
      one into an untenable position; in order to be 'well', one must act
      as though nothing is wrong. But this charade is itself, a re-burying
      of the first order of reaction, and a compounding of denial. One can
      keep shoveling 'hope' over the still-breathing corpse, but its
      twitches persist, bring it back into view. Eventually, one will face
      the music; it will all come to the surface, eventually. On that day,
      desired/habitual 'identity' may be severely challenged.

      It is well to observe just how the behaviour of denial, which is so
      'close to home' as to be overlooked for its very closeness, ramifies
      into the major conflicts which we assume are 'outside of ourselves'.
      We define what we perceive in that way, as 'the condition of the
      world'. Our cultural dramas (the World Dream) demand that we act as
      though such perceptions are accurate, when in fact, they are 'merely'
      our own compounded projections. Our culturally-enforced participation
      in this synthetic 'virtual reality' guarantees that we will always
      have access to 'circumstances' which serve to enforce our overlayed
      identities; by means of 'going along with the crowd', we become one
      of the crowd.


      ..... It is the product of our unknowing misgoverning of
      our personal 'energy ecology' which seems to be evidence that the
      world is indeed 'out to get us'; the 'slings and arrows of outrageous
      fortune' are much more impactfull, when our immunity has been sapped
      by the behaviour of denial.


      In my view (which I admit is radical), denial is violence committed
      against oneself. The automatic use of force against oneself brews an
      inner hurricane of contrary reactions; "A house divided against
      itself cannot stand". Nonduality is, in my view, the logical point of
      arrival, after all such aggressions against oneself have been halted.
      Self-domination is suicidal bullying, while the opposite, having
      compassion for oneself, is how power is conserved and used for
      healing and expansion.

      ==Gene Poole==



      Osho wrote:

      "And once you have started listening, you will be able to listen to the sound of
      running water, to the wind passing through the
      trees. You will be able to listen to the music of silence in the dark night, to the
      music of the birds in the early morning. You
      will start listening to so many things that you will be in a state of immense
      amazement that this world was available to you --and
      so close--but you were not available to this world...."

      The 'art' of listening has arisen for me in a number of ways
      these past few days.

      I refer to it now as an 'art' form because I have come to see
      that it in order to do it well, one needs to be in a similar
      state of consciousness as the great artists working in
      any of a number of forms of expression.

      For example, a great painter becomes so single-mindedly
      focused on his work.....focused on the 'object' he is painting
      ...that after a while, the 'subject' of his painting and the 'canvas'
      itself.... becomes One.

      A dancer begins focusing so completely on the music,
      letting the music sing through her, that as she moves
      across the floor, the distinction between 'dancer' and
      'dance' fall away.

      This seems to me to be what is required of a good
      listener. More importantly, it is the *opportunity*
      given to me a hundred times or more during the course
      of any given day..... the opportunity to melt into the
      words shared by an other - until no sense of 'other'
      even exists.

      If one were to give a list of choices to a group of young kids,
      stressed-out moms, and solitary grandparents.

      to list in order, " which 'act of love' would you appreciate
      the most?"

      My guess is...

      that "to be listened to"...with complete and undivided
      attention....was what the majority would want.

      I have certainly heard it said time and time again

      from coworkers at the job, students complaining
      about their teachers, my son Joseph complaining
      to me even,

      "I wish you would just LISTEN to me!"

      I see that the art of listening is an act that 'gives'
      both ways.....as Osho says above,

      "....that you will be in a state of immense amazement..."

      It's a pretty great state to be in.

      What an opportunity.

      And what a challenge

      to be free of all 'self' referential thoughts
      and desires long enough to truly 'start listening'
      to the world around us.

      I see that in order for one to listen to....and
      really 'hear' an other, one needs to be clear of
      their own hidden and silenced voices.

      That's why I'm appreciating my dialogue
      with Gene so well.

      Until one is free to genuinely listen,
      the 'echoes' of denial resound so
      deeply around us that we wind up wanting
      only to hear the sound of our own voices.




      Namaste All,

      This is how I look at it, for what it is worth.

      The transcendental Nirguna Brahman, somehow projects a dream, but it
      is only a dream of a dream, for it didn't happen. No dreams!

      However at the imminent level of Saguna Brahman or 'God'. The dream
      has a certain validity to its constituent members. God being the sum
      total of all the consciousnesses as a forest is made of trees.

      As there is no time, all lives are lived at once in the greater
      there can be no freewill.

      As Brahman separated himself from himself, this being the illusion of
      separation. The separated jiva is to realise this and wake up, to

      So in the awakening process there are of course various levels of

      To become aware, or lift the veil of illusion, one has to experience.
      So the experience of action occurrs but because it all happens at
      once, it is only an illusion of freewill. For the action or even the
      thought that one grabs hold of, is already predestined. Only the jiva
      or individual thinks that it is happening because of his action, not
      realising it would all happen anyway. Kind of like an arm thinking it
      moves itself.

      So depending on the feeling of doing karma is incurred, and it is
      rising above these karmas that awareness is all about. The problem
      being that we think we are doing actions in a creation, whereas there
      is only one being, and all happens at once in the dream. We are in it
      but cannot see the wood for the trees,(jivas).

      You can see this in sensitivity, or lack of, or rationalisation of
      etc. I don't want to get into a food fight or eco war, but how many
      connect the meat or whatever on their plate with the agony of the
      beast that provided it. See there is a veil, Avarana.

      So everything is about raising one's awarness to the point where one
      realises nothing ever was dreamed or happened at all.

      This is what ahimsa is about, not hurting anything, for anything is
      oneself and that strengthens illusion, a turning away of the mind.

      So to conclude my ramblings, freewill is only the illusion of action
      and determination so one may gain or lose awareness, with the karmas.

      If you don't understand this ramble or don't like my grammar, don't
      blame me, the jiva ,for it was already written, or not written!!hahaha

      Om Namah Sivaya, Tony.


      Dear Tony,

      Thanks to Greg's patient explanation and now your comments here, I begin to
      understand. Maybe it's just thru more exposure to these new ideas or that once you
      used words I can relate to like transcendental and immanent it becomes comprehensible
      to me now. I finally get what you have been talking about lo these many months.
      Hooray! Actually, very similar reasoning was used to explain predestination in the
      Presbyterian church I went to for 20 years. Nothing surprises God. Nothing can happen
      "outside" his will, etc.. Waking up would compare to realizing the Grace of God is
      the source of everything, seeing this is the 'revelation' of God as experienced in
      time in the outward manifestation of immanence ( your term is in "illusory maya"),
      tho it is pre-ordained eternally as known from the beginning. I think all the pre-
      and fore- stuff is just the Western mind has seldom been able to get outside the box
      of linear time thinking models of reality. Eternity is not before or after..it just
      ...Again here, that one comes to 'believe' is not one's own doing, it is only
      thru the Grace of God, so there is no credit or blame to anyone. You see, this is my
      background..and I am not saying it is identical.. I realize there appear to be some
      differences..but the basic concept is there. --------
      ...While it is good to speak of "how it really is"...UNTIL one can be aware
      of the non-separation, their experience is illusorily one OF separation...so within
      that model of how it is being experienced there is much struggle with making choices
      and feeling suffering from the effects of actions... or karmas. This is why I say
      that just telling someone that their individual identity and their suffering is only
      an illusion goes over like a lead balloon. It's putting the cart before the horse to
      simply deny the reality of what they experience..what they need is to first see or
      understand the non-separation...even a glimmer of insight to begin seeing how it
      really is.

      Love, Gloria

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