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Tuesday/June 6

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    Judi Rhodes if people don t have sense enough to be bewildered already, we re here to help!
    Message 1 of 1 , Jun 8, 2000
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      Judi Rhodes

      if people don't have sense enough to be bewildered already,
      we're here to help!


      Michael Johnson asked:

      I have heard the saying, You are pure as the driven snow.
      And just wondered if anyone has ever seen driven snow?

      David Hodges:

      Yes...I grew up in New Hampshire, where the wind-driven
      snow would produce huge snowdrifts. Snowdrifts were great
      places for we kids to tunnel in and make play houses.

      I don't know if there is any other kind of driven snow
      besides wind-driven. And I don't know why driven snow would
      be any purer than new-fallen snow, which, to my mind, is
      the purest snow there is.

      Michael: I agree that new-fallen snow does seem to be the
      purest. I grew up in the South, Tennessee, and as such,
      have not experienced much snow at all.

      Jerry: A few years ago I was working the graveyard shift
      and got off work at 7am. A foot of snow had come down and
      it was early Sunday morning. I trudged home several blocks
      through the residential, tree lined streets. The roads were
      hardly driven over. The trees, sidewalks, and front steps
      were thick with the year's first snow. There was no wind
      and stillness all around.

      Larry: I remember being in NYC once when it snowed so much
      the whole city stopped. I walked down the middle of 5th
      avenue from Central Park to Greenwich Village.

      Ed: I drove home through the mountains after a skiing trip.
      It was early morning and a driving snowstorm had blanketed
      everything pure white. It was intensely bright so I wore my
      rose colored ski glasses. What a way to see the world!!

      Judi: an old Mae West line - "I used to be Snow White, but
      I drifted."

      Continuing the discussion on Free Will:

      Mark Otter

      The discussion of free will can become a distraction, a
      non-helpful spinning of philosophical wheels, if one
      doesn't attend to the work of attention and clear seeing.
      Of course, that distraction may be an activity of free
      will, or simply a predestined working out of kharma.
      Hmmm.... From here, actively choosing love seems the
      sensible thing to do regardless of the mechanics of its



      my view on free will We are born into this world with the
      god given right of free will. We value the right of making
      our own choices. And as long as we can't see the outcome of
      those choices we will continue to have free will. But if we
      increase our mental awareness, we will be able to see the
      outcome of the choices we make. So understand that our
      willingness to give up our freewill must come first, before
      we can really be free.


      Tony O'Clery

      In my honest opinion free will doesn't exist. Whether one
      believes it is previous karma or not. The illusion of
      choice exists, so we may gain the fruits of actions, that's
      all. It is all in the dream anyway.The decision that we
      make was always the one we had already made.

      So whether one believes that the action is due to previous
      karma or to the non existent idea of time. The result is
      the same. It can only be that way for really nothing


      Greg Goode

      Or, as Michael Roach the Tibetan teacher once told me
      "Those who believe in free will are determined by their
      karma to do so."


      Greg Gooded responds to Gloria Lee

      GLORIA: How would you explain the view that "nothing" ever
      happened.. since I gather you do not mean to deny existence
      or physical world quite so literally? How does advaita mean

      GREG: Actually, the physical world is the first to go!!
      Some day I'll tell you about a class I had long ago where
      if you wrote paper in support of the physical world, you
      could never get above a B!

      The view that nothing ever happened. What does advaita say
      about it?

      I'll go at it advaita-like in 2 ways. One from the great
      advaita philosopher Krishna Menon, and one from scriptural
      advaita, esp. Mandukya Upanishad. The first is simpler.
      Sorry if I'm making it too complex or heady.

      You ask,

      "If we cannot cause or change anything..how can we change
      this karma which you say our previous actions caused in the
      first place?"

      Both teachings below are direct-path advaita, whose
      non-progressive approach is very similar to the Southern or
      "Sudden Enlightenment" school of Ch'an, a la Hui Neng and
      Ta Hui. That is, in both these traditions, there is no
      "mirror polishing" or changing of karma that need (or can)
      take place. By the way Gloria, Gaudapada was familiar with
      the Madhyamika Buddhist tradition, and with Nagarjuna's
      great Treatise on the Middle Way. He's often accused of
      being a crypto-Buddhist!!

      Back to nothing ever happened --

      1. Krishna Menon explains it in terms of objects collapsing
      into Consciousness/Knowledge. The mind, body and world are
      made up of (and can't be indendent of) sense objects,
      feelings and thoughts. These sensations, feelings and
      thoughts are all objects of knowledge, and thus are not
      independent of knowledge. The knowledge aspect cannot be
      denied. But if the objects are never independent of
      knowledge, then knowledge is not knowledge *of* the
      objects. Knowledge doesn't go out and reach or contact the
      objects. The objects then aren't objects at all, but pure
      knowledge itself. So there is nothing that ever could have

      2. The statement that nothing ever happened -- it is a
      statement that Papaji made well known. The statement is a
      compression of the famous Ramana quote (I don't have it at
      hand, sorry) about there being no enlightenment, no seeker,
      no sought, etc. Ramana's famous phrase is actually a
      paraphrase from the sloka from the Madukya Upanishad with
      Gaudapada's karika:

      II:32 There is no dissolution, no birth, none in bondage,
      none aspiring for wisdom, no seeker of liberation and none
      liberated. This is the absolute truth.

      The explanation goes along these lines. The external
      physical objects are not independent of the mind. They are
      basically mind-stuff, and never appear unless the mind is
      appearing. This is familiar, as there are lots of spiritual
      views consistent with this.

      But what does Gaudapada say about mind-stuff? By showing
      how the mind is never a cause or an effect of any arising.
      If nothing causes an arising or manifestation, there's no

      There is a prolonged argument in the karika about there not
      being any causal relations. Basically, causality makes no
      sense because the cause is just as dependent on the effect
      as the effect is on the cause, and they both appear (in the
      cause/effect relation) simultaneously. Those who believe in
      the reality of any part of the manifestation believe that
      things get reality because they are caused. It is thought
      that the cause confers reality on the effect. But the cause
      is not a cause until the effect appears. Therefore the
      effect is the cause of the cause (IV:14). If the cause is
      not real until the effect makes it into a cause, then how
      can a cause, which is not real, confer reality on the
      effect?? If the cause is not real, then how can it bring
      about the effect?

      If there is no cause and effect, then the mind never enters
      into causal relations (IV:27)

      Here are some various quotes about the mind and
      cause/effect from Gaudapada:

      III:15 (The scriptural statements regarding) creation as
      illustrated by examples of earth, iron, sparks, etc., or
      otherwise, (only) serve the purpose of (ultimately)
      explaining the unity (of Jiva and Brahman). (Really
      speaking) multiplicity does not exist in any manner.

      III:43 If it be remembered that everything is the unborn
      (Brahman), the born (duality) will not be seen.

      III:48 No Jiva is ever born. There does not exist any cause
      which can produce it. This is the highest Truth that
      nothing is ever born.

      IV:22 Nothing, whatsoever, is born either of its self or of
      another. Nothing is ever produced whether it be being or
      non-being or both being and non-being.

      IV:26 The mind is not related to the (external) objects.
      Nor are the ideas which appear as external objects,
      reflections upon the mind. It is so because the objects are
      non-existent and the ideas (which appear as external
      objects) are not separate from the mind.

      IV:27 The mind does not enter into causal relation in any
      of the three periods of time. How can the mind be ever
      subject to delusion, as there is no cause for any such

      IV:28 Therefore neither the mind nor the objects percived
      by the mind are ever born. Those who perceive such birth
      may as well discover foot-prints (of the birds) in the sky.

      IV:56 As long as there is faith in causality, the (endless)
      chain of birth and death will be there. When that faith is
      destroyed (by knowledge) birth and death become

      IV:76 When the mind does not find any cause superior,
      inferior or middling, it becomes free from birth. How can
      there be an effect without a cause?


      Gene Poole

      Denial is taught by example; the ways of the parent/culture
      become the ways of the child. By paying attention to inner
      disturbances, such as those brought about by the behaviour
      of denial, we have an opportunity to go beyond the criteria
      of culture.

      It is well to observe just how the behaviour of denial,
      which is so 'close to home' as to be overlooked for its
      very closeness, ramifies into the major conflicts which we
      assume are 'outside of ourselves'. We define what we
      perceive in that way, as 'the condition of the world'. Our
      cultural dramas (the World Dream) demand that we act as
      though such perceptions are accurate, when in fact, they
      are 'merely' our own compounded projections. Our
      culturally-enforced participation in this synthetic
      'virtual reality' guarantees that we will always have
      access to 'circumstances' which serve to enforce our
      overlayed identities; by means of 'going along with the
      crowd', we become one of the crowd.

      It is the product of our unknowing misgoverning of our
      personal 'energy ecology' which seems to be evidence that
      the world is indeed 'out to get us'; the 'slings and arrows
      of outrageous fortune' are much more impactfull, when our
      immunity has been sapped by the behaviour of denial.


      Matthew Files

      The perfection of the human being is perfection in human
      terms. This is not a limitation of form but the perfect
      form of form. The traditions tend to suggest or imply that
      the transcendence of all forms is the ultimate existence or
      state of being. But the Truth of existence itself, is
      nondual Reality. There is only God, only this Great Process
      of Divine Evolution. This is a given fact of all existence,
      regardless of form, or not-form. There is no distinction
      between a human being, a frog, a platypus, a lump of iron
      ore and a Gryswilviz in terms of the essential fact that
      there is only God. Non- dual Realization, or the Awakening
      to the truth of already present and eternally True
      Enlightenment (retroactive of course to the Begining,
      whenever the heck that was) or the complete assumption by
      the Will of God is perfect in Essence, but not in form!
      This realization, this Awakening, is the Male aspect of the
      polarity of all things. It is the realization and ultimate
      fulfillment of the Yang or masculine nature of the being.
      But it is not the ultimate fulfillment of the Yin, or
      feminine aspect, which is indicated by all form, all
      manifestation, all turning to, as differentiated from
      radiating out as.


      Gloria Lee

      If I am not "being presence"- however and whatever is the
      most true way I know to be this - then I am reduced to
      calculating effects, imagining to control outcomes,
      becoming nothing other than a manipulator of either others
      or myself. Yet when I am true to my being, whatever
      consequences that brings are still better than being false.


      Dear Dave,

      Your descriptions of the way you experienced this Beeing
      and Treeing and the way your senses transformed when you
      pretended to be deaf.. it evoked a memory in me of having
      read something like it, tho it was quite sometime ago. I
      finally found the passage, it was written by Helen Keller.
      If only all could see and hear as well as she.....

      ~~~~ I have often thought it would be a blessing if each
      human being were stricken blind and deaf for a few days at
      some time during his early adult life. Darkness would make
      him more appreciative of sight; silence would teach him the
      joys of sound.

      Now and then I have tested my seeing friends to discover
      what they see. Recently I was visited by a very good friend
      who had just returned from a long walk in the woods, and I
      asked her what she had observed. 'Nothing in particular,'
      she replied. I might have been incredulous had I not been
      accustomed to such responses, for long ago I became
      convinced that the seeing see little.

      How was it possible, I asked myself, to walk for an hour
      through the woods and see nothing worthy of note? I who
      cannot see find hundreds of things to interest me through
      mere touch. I feel the delicate symmetry of a leaf. I pass
      my hands lovingly about the smooth skin of a silver birch,
      or the rough, shaggy bark of a pine. In spring I touch the
      branches of trees hopefully in search of a bud, the first
      sign of awakening Nature after her winter's sleep. I feel
      the delightful, velvety texture of a flower, and discover
      its remarkable convolutions; and something of the miracle
      of Nature is revealed to me. Occasionally, if I am very
      fortunate, I place my hand gently on a small tree and feel
      the happy quiver of a bird in full song. I am delighted to
      have the cool waters of a brook rush through my open
      fingers. To me a lush carpet of pine needles or spongy
      grass is more welcome than the most luxurious Persian rug.
      To me the pageant of seasons is a thrilling and unending
      drama, the action of which streams through my finger tips.

      My hands evoke sight and sound out of feeling,
      Intershifting the senses endlessly,
      Linking motion with sight, odor with sound.
      They give color to the honeyed breeze,
      The measure and passion of a symphony
      To the beat and quiver of unseen wings.
      In the secrets of earth and sun and air
      My fingers are wise;
      They snatch light out of darkness,
      They thrill to harmonies breathed in silence.

      Helen Keller

      Melody Anderson

      When I am open.....undefended....my chest area feels like a
      screen door. I can feel the movement of energy thru it. And
      not only a 'movement' of energy, but it's like a filling
      up, and a lifting up of ....[there is not other way to
      describe it, other than]... Love.

      Very often though that area gets closed up, and I never
      notice it when it closes. I only notice.... looking
      backwards...I generally don't notice until I have just
      cleared a blockage (denial) and I notice [undeniably!] the
      rush of energy moving thru it....and then (until it closes
      again) it's like a screen door with a spring breeze moving
      thru it.

      So when that area is closed I have to look to other areas
      of my body for cues ....which are cues of denial....such as
      a repulsive feeling in the stomach, or muscle tension
      generally....or even more subtle cues of facial expression
      and body posture.

      If not for watching these body disturbances, I would not
      know I was denying. No way.

      I'm curious, Gene, if you are familiar with the EFT

      I was introduced to it yesterday and from what I've read so
      far, it seems very promising.

      I have been opening to the idea of ending my 'hibernation',
      and opening a hypnotherapy practice once again, and in this
      'considering', I began to explore the web for what is new
      in the field since I left it. It was in that search that I
      discovered EFT, short for Emotional Freedom Technologies.

      The technology is based on: "The cause of all negative
      emotions is a disruption in the body's energy system."

      And the 'work' involves simply tapping the end points of
      the major energy meridians (as in accupuncture) when one's
      attention is fixed on the 'inner disturbances'.

      It takes only a minute to 'run the routine'.

      If this works as well as the independent testimonies I have
      read suggest, the marriage of this system to the work of
      'ending denial' promises to be an exceptional one.

      If you're familiar with it, I'd love to hear your take on

      I downloaded the manual from a rather extensive website

      and will try 'running some routines' on myself and see how
      it goes.


      Judi Rhodes

      Speaking of love, you should have been here this evening.
      Meriann is graduating 8th grade next week and her school is
      having their spring concert tomorrow nite. She was
      practicing her piano solo that she will be playing tomorrow
      nite as a surprise gift to her music teacher at the concert
      - "I Will Remember You", by Sara McLaughlin. It's gonna
      bring the house down.

      We are the Nonduality Generation.
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