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HIGHLIGHTS of Friday June 2, 2000

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  • Gloria Lee
    JUDI ... ********* You tell em Ramesh. Will they listen to me, nooooooooo. :-) Tell me how am I suppose to live without you Now that I ve been lovin you so
    Message 1 of 1 , Jun 3, 2000

      Ramesh Balsekar:
      > One must abandon the cleverness of reason for bewilderment,
      You tell 'em Ramesh. Will they listen to me, nooooooooo. :-)

      Tell me how am I suppose to live without you
      Now that I've been lovin' you so long
      How am I suppose to live without you
      How am I suppose to carry on
      When all that I've been livin' for is gone

      I didn't come here for cryin'
      Didn't come here to break down
      It's just a dream of mine is coming to an end
      And how can I blame you
      When I build my world around
      The hope that one day we'd be so much
      more than friends
      And I don't wanna know the price I'm
      gonna pay for dreaming.

      ****** Michael Bolton

      DUTCH (Jan K.)

      When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful,
      a miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical.
      And all the birds in the trees, well they'd be singing so happily,
      oh, joyfully, oh, playfully, watching me.

      But then they sent me away to teach me how to be
      sensible, logical, oh, responsible, practical.
      And they showed me a world where I could be so
      dependable, oh, clinical, oh, intellectual, cynical.

      There are times when all the world's asleep,
      the questions run too deep
      for such a simple man.
      Won't you please, please tell me what we've learned?
      I know it sounds absurd
      please tell me who I am.

      JERRY answers the Noumenon free will vs. determinism question:

      I can't comment on the specific views of J. Krishanmurti or
      Balsekar, because I don't know what they said or the context
      in which their statements were made. Living in the moment,
      what is said is said for the moment and then it is gone. It
      is gone as soon as it is said. Any utterance is so fleeting,
      it may be said that it was never said at all!

      Seeing that fleetingness, the question that arises out of
      the question of free will is, What was the question? Was
      there a question uttered? I thought I heard a question
      posed. For an instant I saw a whisp of vapor in the blue sky
      and now all is blue again.

      But wait: Is there free will in Life or is all
      pre-determined? Assuming that there is Life and that there
      are occurrences, I then ask whether there is an entity Jerry
      Katz who is capable of acting freely. I then ask what it
      means to act freely, to do one thing with free will. At this
      point I look at the other side of the coin and ask what it
      means for one event to be pre-determined.

      And it is at this point that, frankly, I am stuck, because
      whatever arises in thought or perception in not the case; it
      is not going to be the answer. So why continue?

      I am left re-reading Kriben's question and looking for
      resonance. I find resonance in hearing that life is like
      improvisation, meaning, to me, that life is being made up
      moment to moment. It means that life arises moment to

      If life arises moment to moment, nothing can be pre-destined
      and there is nothing but free will. That free will is so
      pure, so fleeting, that to capture it, to 'see' it, is to be
      struck down. To remember it is to have the impression that
      there is free will. But to see it from moment to moment is
      to be struck down, which means that the freedom is so great
      that there is only the freedom arising and shining. Because
      that is what is, it is our destiny; it is as though
      pre-determined, because what other choice is there? There
      are no choices possible. Yet what IS, is unspeakable
      freedom. Intuiting that, life feels improvisational. And it
      is why the Guru -- and there is only one Guru -- can utter
      through one side of the mouth that there is free will, and
      through the other that all is pre-determined.

      DAN"s version:

      D: The observer constructs the observed
      as the observed constructs the observer.
      The observer freely constructs the observed,
      as the observer is determined by the observed.
      Freedom and determinism mutually imply
      and define each other.
      As observer is the observed, neither observer nor
      observed exist as entities.
      Reality is, ultimately
      nondeterministic, as it would require an
      ultimate entity of some kind
      to determine an outcome.
      And whatever determined that entity would be another
      entity, ad infinitum.
      Thus: nondetermined universe.

      The Present 'originates' and
      *is* past, present, and future.

      >Greg wrote: Upon analysis however, a free action and a free chooser
      >cannot be found.
      >Analysis has proven itself incapable of finding anything; so it has
      >therefore disqualified itself as a viable means of determining truth or
      >determining anything at all.

      That's right Larry-ji!!! And with the end of viable means of determining
      objective truth and other stuff, objective truth itself and all other
      stuff comes to an end. Truth and stuff, in order to be determined, depends
      on analysis. And analysis, in the need of raw material and true
      statements, depends on truth and stuff.



      & And are we now saluting time honored and
      & conventional methods? Last time I looked, time
      & honored and conventional were not big on
      & anybody's list around here.
      & Marcia

      This was just to point out the difference between,
      on the one hand looking for evidence of free will,
      and on the other hand believing it exists because
      somebody says it does. Evidence is convincing, or
      at least more convincing than belief. Wouldn't
      you agree?

      This moment is all that is. This moment is all
      that it is. In this moment is neither will nor
      the lack of will. There is nothing lacking and
      nothing to be gained ... here and now. That is
      freedom. Love it or analyze it.

      Freely and willfully,


      It depends on which 'I'/eye I'm looking through.

      Looking thru the eye of ego, freewill is a given.
      If not for freewill, the ego would atrophy for
      lack of use!

      Looking thru the eye of Self, the idea
      of freewill is rather amusing.

      Free of what?
      As Self, what IS there to be free of?



      Since the projection (everything perceivable and conceivable) is itself
      something that can be both perceived and conceived, it appears as something
      similar to an endless hall of mirrors.

      The projection is perceived within the projection, which is perceived
      within the projection, which is perceived within the projection...
      seemingly endlessly, but with no beginning, no cause. The projection
      itself appears within the projection!

      Thus, in the end, there is a return to reality for those who see the
      projection clearly and deeply, see through it. In clear seeing, there is a
      transcendence, and thus no more projection. The seeing, however, must be
      complete. There must be a real knowing of the projection as only
      projection. Then, and only then, this knowing spontaneously goes, to be
      replaced with nothing. "Realization," if it consists of anything, consists
      of only LOSS - loss of concepts (whether dearly held onto or despised),
      loss of endless, uncontrollable mind-monkey thought, loss of everything.
      Nothing (and Everything) is the "replacement."

      Within the projection, it's as if we're seeing reality in a set of carnival
      mirrors. One gives the appearance of being short, another of being tall,
      another of a giant torso but tiny head and legs, another of stretched head
      but a miniaturized torso and legs.... None of these reflections are true.

      Knowing the projection as projection, "remembering" it regularly in daily
      life, is bound to result in the dissolution of the projection. Any clear
      seeing of an *object* results in the dissolution of that object. The
      Projection is an object - everything perceivable and conceivable taken
      together as a single object. Remove that object, see through its apparent
      reality, and there is only Eternal Subject.

      The Buddhists have a saying: First, there are mountains and rivers. Then
      there are no mountains and rivers. Later, there are mountains and rivers

      Thus ends this series of "teachings." There is nobody here 'qualified' to
      be a teacher, but there is always the chance these posts may have stirred
      the reality "within you," the "Inner Guru" or "Satguru."

      [If anyone is interested in receiving the full "projection" series, all
      four parts posted to NDS, please Email me at core@... and I will
      send all parts together. These will eventually be posted on 'The Core"

      MARCIA sends:

      At the risk of offending the non-Gurdjieff people, I would
      like to quote something from Views from the Real World.

      "Question: Has free will a place in your teaching?

      Answer: Free will is the function of the rea I, of him whom
      we call the Master. He who has a Master has will. He who has
      not has no will. What is ordinarily called will is an adjust-
      ment between willingness and unwillingness. For instance, the
      mind wants something and the feeling does not want it; if the
      mind proves to be stronger than the feeling, a man obeys his
      mind. In the opposite case, he will obey his feelings. This is
      what is called "free will" in an ordinary man. An ordinary man
      is ruled now by the mind, now by the feeling, now by the
      body. Very often he obeys orders coming from the automatic
      apparatus; a thousand times more often he is ordered about by
      the sex center.

      Real free will can only be when one I always directs, when
      man has a Master for his team. An ordinary man has no mas-
      ter; the carriage constantly changes passengers and each pas-
      senger calls himself I.

      Nevertheless, free will is a reality, it does exist. But we, as
      we are, cannot have it. A real man can have it.

      Question: Are there no people who have free will?

      Answer: I am speaking of the majority of men. Those who
      have will-have will. Anyway, free will is not an ordinary phe-
      nomenon. It cannot be had for the asking, cannot be bought in
      a shop."


      "To whom does this question of free will and predestination arise,
      and why does it concern the questioner?"

      Isn't the whole question rendered moot when we ask ourselves,
      "Who is the one who exercises free will?"

      MANCHINE (Dave)

      When the questions drop, it's because there's just one big

      Be a tree today. Why not? It's possible, I've done it.
      At least the questions are different.

      Be a couple of other things, and then feel the common thread.
      Then you'll see what illusion is. Then you'll see what you've
      been. Then you'll see Reality. Glorious Reality.


      No need for trepidations. Ignorance is my greater glory, error a long
      time friend. Ignorance is Brahman, Atman is knowledge. Knowledge is a
      wave, but ignorance is ocean. What could be easier! Free and easy; isn't
      that a poem or something?

      Yeah! I love this list. All questions answered. All answers questioned.
      There's some big waves of knowledge in your ocean Larry. Surf's up.
      > >--------------I don't see it as an either / or situation. Both
      > >for me at the same time. Acquiring beliefs is not a problem as
      > >as we don't believe them.
      > Spoken like the great Yogi Berra himself!
      > --Greg
      It is actually a quote from him. What he was trying to say is that
      belief systems develop. It is something the mind does, along with
      drawing conclusions about things. The point is not to stop beliefs or
      conclusions but to recognize them for what they are. That is clear
      seeing.......shri shri yogi berra ki jai!!!


      Enjoy - or not - as you will.

      Daibai asked Baso, What is the Buddha?"
      Baso answered, "The mind is the Buddha."

      Mumon's Comments:
      If you fully understand Baso's meaning, you are wearing Buddha's
      clothes, eating Buddha's food, speaking Buddha's words, doing
      deeds, that is to say, you are Buddha himself. But Baso misled not a
      few people into erroring the principles of Zen. He does not realize
      that if we explain the word "Buddha" we must rinse our mouths for
      three days afterwards. If he is a man of understanding, he would
      his ears and run away hearing Baso say, "The mind is the Buddha!"

      Under blue sky, in bright sunlight,
      One need not search around,
      Asking around what Buddha is,
      is liking the stolen goods in one's pocket and declaring oneself

      Peace - Koan You Understand - Michael
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