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Tuesday/May 30

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    JAN BARENDRECHT In poor countries, the wish is not to be happy, the wish is to live life Western style and the perceived limitation is money . But the most
    Message 1 of 1 , May 31 7:55 PM
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      JAN BARENDRECHT

      In poor countries, the wish is not to be happy, the wish is
      to live life "Western style" and the perceived limitation
      is "money". But the most obvious reason is the love for
      change as life forms are optimized to perceive change in
      one way or another. The want for a change into "changeless
      bliss" still is the old groove of wanting change. So what
      doesn't change isn't perceived although it is THE most
      obvious; no change is for many the equivalent of boredom.
      The "bliss part" is hidden very well and unconditional
      happiness not just means "it shines for no reason at all"
      but it also means "physical or mental events can no longer
      veil it".

      __________________________________________________________________

      SHANKAR AND LYNNE ON THE I AM LIST:

      SHANKAR: (The ignorant) were born to delude (themselves),
      in the drunkenness of (involution into) the
      enjoyable-external-object, and die ! - O, Parrot ! -(and,
      they) forgot the 'Existence' (Sat).

      Translation of verse 8 of the 'Parrot-Eye-Vision of the
      Life of Sri Ramana' by Sri Sadhu Om Swamigal.

      LYNNE HELWIG I'll admit to an amount of ignorance
      necessarily being a factor of human "existence" - if we
      both agree it means that we don't (and can't) know
      everything. However, enjoyment of a dark river bank, with a
      friend, under the stars, sitting on long, strong, slender
      treeroots that extend into the water, smelling the warming
      earth and the cooling air, listening to the gentle brooking
      of the river can be such a transcendent experience.
      Existence surely resides here - I think/feel/know.

      So, also in the heartrending struggle to understand
      "ourselves and others". That is our reality. What about
      relationship?

      _____________________________________________________________________

      JAN: When using "projection" for what is perceived, that
      has to be unlimited - in physics for instance, exceptions
      often denote faulty theory. As all perceptions have to be
      projections and equally unreal there is no way that a
      collection of projections can know what is real because
      non-perception, like deep dreamless sleep, is just the
      suspension of projection, which can be a projection itself,
      instead of a supposed unprojected and there is no way to
      verify one or the other.

      DAN: Yes. The challenge is to notice that a collection of
      interacting projections is masquerading as oneself. The
      verification of this can't occur via usual knowledge, which
      is the reverberation of endless projections in a "private
      mental space" -- itself constructed via projection. So, how
      does "verification" then occur? A related question is, "how
      can no-thing possibly be deluded into self-defining as
      something via projections based no-where?" The answer to
      the first question, "Reality" is the converse to the answer
      to the second, "the persuasiveness of Unreality". This
      leaves a dissatisfying state of affairs in which Reality
      somehow can be persuaded (presumably by Itself, as it is
      All) to perceive itself as being less than it is. In
      Qabala, this is viewed as a contraction of Infinity for the
      sake of constructing a universe, which might be viewed as
      self-presentation of That which can't possibly present
      itself. Such "answers" being constructs themselves (as of
      course would be answers derived from physics) can only
      suggest what might be meant by "dissolution" of
      self-boundaries, when "dissolution" is equivalent to "being
      with no other" "as is".

      JAN: I prefer modern physics, in the infancy of denying the
      existence of time. In terms of physics, the error of
      perception has to be extremely large as the senses have
      limitations. As the mind is processing these perceptions,
      the result of processing could give an insight, intuitively
      correct and yet wrong.

      DAN: Yes. Thus, interpretation substitutes for reality,
      until there is a shift to reality, and interpretation can
      be understood as mediated (divided) perception rather than
      "reality as such".

      JAN: It is just as easy to state there is no incentive
      whatsoever because when "God is everything", that will in
      the course of events become self-evident. And then there is
      the nice dictum "as above, so below", indicating that
      perceiving a self, by itself will lead to perceiving a
      Self. From that perspective, "i" to "I" could be called
      just a matter of expansion, or the general insight that
      whenever perceiving a limitation, that already denotes its
      transcendence.

      DAN: Yes. The difficulty seems to be "noticing" This. Why
      so difficult? (A view of human history shows very
      deep-seated difficulties and myriad ways to "get stuck".)
      One answer is: The "feeling of being" is captured by a
      persuasive "picture of reality" in which there is a
      situated perceiver who needs to "do something" to survive,
      and to assist the survival of loved ones, and species. This
      "capture" by the sense of "one who must survive and enhance
      the likelihood of survival" is linked to pain/pleasure
      responses, identification of loved ones, memory and the
      sense of time, genetically-encoded perception/response
      involving threat. These are seen as played out on the stage
      of history, the unfolding of individual personality, group
      culture, and dramas of acquisition, control, protection
      from acquisition and control, attainments, religions,
      sciences, etc.

      DAN: Or one could say "remain where one is, before
      beginning" and all will be well.

      JAN: That could be interpreted as suggestive of choice,
      requiring the memory of beginning and it is obvious that
      hardly anyone knows. But it could also be interpreted as
      "keep dead" :) From another perspective still, it can be
      argued there is nowhere to go nor is there anyone to go so
      there is no remaining to begin with.

      DAN: Yes, remain dead and suicide won't be necessary, thus
      eliminating the need for the arms race and war in general
      ;-) Remain undisturbed and survival won't be required. When
      there is 'no remaining to begin with', one is 'prior to
      beginning' with no beginning to remember or possible, and
      Silence reigns. According to this view, it is the
      belief/perception that "beginning" is possible that leads
      to time, and the possibility of suffering "within" time. It
      is interesting to note that the first word of the first
      chapter of the Book is entitled, literally, "with
      Beginning," mistranslated as "Genesis". If that one word is
      understood, there is no need to "go on" to the second -
      similar to the Qabalic story about Jesus learning the first
      letter of the alphabet, which Melody recently posted here.

      __________________________________________________________________

      REMAIN UNDISTURBED AND SURVIVAL WON'T BE REQUIRED Dan
      Berkow and Christiana Duranczyk

      CHRISTIANA writes: Hello Dan...

      Your dialogues with Tim, Jan and others are striking as
      many resonant chords as perplexing ones. The discussions on
      these topics have been so rich, that I hesitate to
      interject. Yet the taste of this is so close that it's
      flavor moves me to speak.

      These dialogues of projection, memory and the 'gap' seem to
      be invoking within me a deep turning .. consequent of which
      appears also to be a deep churning. This sense of the 'gap'
      which you refer to, appears to hold the multidimentionality
      you also refer to. I sense that you speak from the
      spaciousness of the gap which contains, but is certainly
      not bounded by the apparently multidimensional gap I have
      heretofore known (projected?).

      DAN writes: The projection is multifacetted and
      multidimensional, with one level seemingly discrete from,
      yet ultimately interactive with other levels, such that
      each event is resonant with events on "all levels" - the
      "butterfly principle" of the projected reality, perhaps.
      What we are calling "levels" could also be called
      "boundaries", "spheres" or "realms".

      CHRISTIANA: For many years I have worked with, observed and
      surrendered to this 'gap'. I have even used this as a
      benchmark for 'integrity'.. as in.. when all such 'levels'
      are integrated or aligned (much as the imagery of the
      hollow flute) then self surrenders itself as chalice... as
      vehicle Being lived. What arises as interference seems
      endless, yet years of practice, study, observation,
      devotion have yielded to an almost kinetic or magnetic
      sense of "True North".

      Yet, I see now that there has always remained some residual
      memory-identity construct which you identify as...
      "mediated (divided) perception rather than "reality as
      such". You write:

      DAN: Yes. The challenge is to notice that a collection of
      interacting projections is masquerading as oneself. The
      verification of this can't occur via usual knowledge, which
      is the reverberation of endless projections in a "private
      mental space" -- itself constructed via projection. So, how
      does "verification" then occur? A related question is, "how
      can no-thing possibly be deluded into self-defining as
      something via projections based no-where?" The answer to
      the first question, "Reality" is the converse to the answer
      to the second, "the persuasiveness of Unreality". This
      leaves a dissatisfying state of affairs in which Reality
      somehow can be persuaded (presumably by Itself, as it is
      All) to perceive itself as being less than it is. In
      Qabala, this is viewed as a contraction of Infinity for the
      sake of constructing a universe, which might be viewed as
      self-presentation of That which can't possibly present
      itself. Such "answers" being constructs themselves (as of
      course would be answers derived from physics) can only
      suggest what might be meant by "dissolution" of
      self-boundaries, when "dissolution" is equivalent to "being
      with no other" "as is".

      DAN: "Intelligence" is evident in the organization of
      thought, but even moreseo in the ability of Awareness to
      use thought to transcend the limitations of thought, to
      dissolve the boundaries "projected" by thought. Once these
      boundaries are apparent as "unreal" as grounding for truth,
      Truth as boundless Reality *is*, the "what is" that
      Krishnamurti referred to when he brilliantly discussed
      differentiating the operation of memory which separates
      observer and observed from perception in which perceiver
      and perceived are not-two."

      CHRISTIANA: I've been observing my mind 'contract' around a
      series of questions and dissonant noise. . The process I
      refer to above has been a useful barometer for clearer
      operation within the mundane world. One by one, however, I
      seem to be perceiving the limitations of the boundaries you
      speak of. This appears to be a different aspect of
      perception for me. Previously, I seemed to need to perceive
      their levels in order to function with more integrity. They
      served their purpose. This newer perception seems to allow
      their dissolution... or perhaps, better stated.. a
      perception is appearing withinwhich there are no objects. I
      must admit, it is also accompanied by some echoes of
      restlessness. That there may be no "True North" is shocking
      to the core. Somewhere, something knows it is dying. As Jan
      said... this could be interpreted as 'keep dead'.

      DAN: Remain undisturbed and survival won't be required.
      When there is 'no remaining to begin with', one is 'prior
      to beginning' with no beginning to remember or possible,
      and Silence reigns."

      CHRISTIANA: From these words tears of recognition arise.

      with deep gratitude for All appearing as you,

      Christiana

      __________________________________________________________________

      D.T. SUZUKI from "Zen and Japanese Culture" (contributed by
      Gloria Lee)

      The Buddhist stanza generally found affixed at the end of a
      Mahayana sutra reads:

      All composite things are impermament, They belong in the
      realm of birth and death; When birth and death is
      transcended, Absolute tranquility is realized and blessed
      are we.

      Tranquility, therefore, in the art of tea is a spiritual
      quality transcending birth and death, and not a mere
      physical or psychological one. This must carefully be kept
      in mind when the tea is spoken of as a step toward devoting
      one's life to a higher level from which one is to view our
      ordinary world and to live in it as if not in it. The
      following is the view on the tea held by Seisetsu
      (1746-1820), a Japanese Zen master of the late Tokugawa
      era:

      "My Tea is No-tea, which not No-tea in opposition to Tea.
      What then is this No-tea? When a man enters into the
      exquisite realm of No-tea he will realize that No-tea is no
      other than the Great Way (ta-tao) itself. In this Way there
      are no fortifications built against birth and death,
      ignorance and enlightenment, right and wrong, assertion and
      negation. To attain a state of no-fortification is the way
      is the way of No-tea. So with things of beauty, nothing can
      be more beautiful than the virtue of No-tea. Here is a
      story: A monk came to Joshu, who asked, 'Have you ever been
      here?' 'No, Master,' was the answer. Joshu said, 'Have a
      cup of tea.' Another monk called, and the master again
      asked, 'Have you ever been here?' 'Yes, Master' was the
      answer. The master said, 'Have a cup of tea.' The same 'cup
      of tea' is offered to either monk regardless of his former
      visit to Joshu. How is this? When the meaning of such a
      story as this is understood to its depths, one enters into
      the inner sanctuary of Joshu and will appreciate the
      bitterness of tea tempered with the salt of sweetness,
      Well, I hear a bell ringing somewhere."

      As long as there is an event designated as 'Tea' this will
      obscure our vision and hinder it from penetrating into
      'Tea' as it in itself. When a man is all the time conscious
      of of performing the art called tea serving, the very fact
      of being conscious constrains every movement of his, ending
      in his artificially constructing a 'fortification.' He
      always feels himself standing against this formidable thing
      which starts up a world of opposites, right and wrong,
      birth and death, Tea and No-tea, ad infinitum. When the
      teaman is caught in these dualistic meshes, he deviates
      from the Great way, and tranquility is forever lost. For
      the art of tea is of the Great way; it is the Great Way
      itself.

      ____________________________________________________________________________

      LARRY: Can anyone describe the nature of a deaf person's
      discursive thoughts? Is it visual, or in what way
      linguistic? I would think the deaf would have an advantage
      in meditation but I've never heard of a deaf yogin. Who
      knows about this stuff???

      DAVE: If you'll bear with me for a minute, a little
      prelude. It seems to me, IMO, that an objective is to get
      to a point where sleeping dreams are more lucid, becoming
      closer to waking life, while waking life becomes more like
      lucid dreaming. Things finally reduce to two states: very
      lucid dreaming and "deep sleep". From there it can be
      considered, being that there is no time, all is now; the
      two states become one.

      Well in that end, I have been playing on the edges of
      consciousness, between sleep and awake, noticing the
      boundaries and expanding them. That lead to what I have
      sensed about parts of the thinking process.

      Thought originates from the process of communication
      between the sub- conscious and the conscious. As the
      conscious becomes aware of a sub- conscious component,
      thought is sensed. "Vocalization" of that thought
      highlights the concept for memorization, becoming the
      conscious organization and acceptance of the sub-conscious
      foolishness. If one can't "hear", that "vocalization" must
      take some other form (something that can acknowledge and
      mark the events...). The process itself forms concept
      packages, that are stored associatively relative to the
      sensual (vocal) reminders.

      Funny, this weekend I was watching bees looking for nectar
      in a large patch of flowers in the garden. I was imagining
      them as deaf, not sure if they actually are, but it made me
      think (there I go again). I felt this world as normal,
      feeling the vibration of my wings, responding to direction
      changes wind shifts, flooded with color and sweet aroma of
      nectar, entering one flower picking up the goodies and
      moving to another. All in a totally silent world, moving,
      wisking yet gliding silently, effortlessly, how different
      it was. Strangely enough, there were no thoughts as I know
      them, just sensual packages of color, smell and movement.

      ______________________________________________________________

      GREG GOODE

      What is memory? Not in the courtroom, but when one is
      investigating, looking to end suffering, to see what lies
      beneath *all* this stuff. In the stream of thoughts, a
      memory is a thought that seems to point to another,
      previous thought. But oddly enough, these things are
      mutually negating. If that previous thought even arose, the
      memory-thought was not there at that time to record it. And
      now, when the memory arises, that supposed previous thought
      is not here now to lend present substantiation. The
      situation is that memory requires the previous thought for
      its verification, and the previous thought requires memory
      for the very claim that it ever existed. Since each one
      depends on the other, neither one ought to be believed or
      taken seriously. Another angle: since a thought that isn't
      there just simply ISN'T, then how can any thought really
      represent or point to another thought? Two thoughts cannot
      co-exist simultaneouly (or else they'd be one thought). So
      when one thought is present, there simply ARE no other
      thoughts. So how can any thought indicate or represent
      another thought??? Not only that, but ponder - can the same
      one thought ever arise twice??? What would prove it??

      Does the brain cause memory? It's OK for science to
      investigate like this and give us chemicals and enzymes to
      improve memory. But what are memory and the brain REALLY??
      If the body arises as nothing other than sensations and
      thoughts, then that includes the brain. The brain doesn't
      experience or generate experiences. Instead it itself is
      experienced as, e.g., visual images of x-rays and gruesome
      TV shows. These are sensations and thoughts. A thought
      might precede or follow another thought. But how can a
      thought *cause* another thought?? But even if we drop back
      into the scientific view a moment. If the brain causes
      memory, then what causes the brain? What causes the brain's
      cause? Etc. This leads to an endless regress, and can allow
      endless suffering. No end in sight! OK for science,
      pharmaceuticals and the education industry, which all
      assume without question a world external to awareness. But
      to investigate into the ultimate nature of things, can this
      line of inquiry ever close the loop of suffering?

      _______________________________________________________________
      We are the Nonduality Generation.
      http://www.nonduality.com
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